From complexity to clarity: A career in science communication

What happens when a scientist leaves academia to pursue a bigger mission: making science accessible, inspiring and deeply human?

In this episode, we speak with Dr. Niamh Shaw, an Irish engineer, scientist and award-winning science communicator whose career has taken an extraordinary turn—from academic research to analogue astronaut missions, zero-gravity flights and international space exploration.

Originally trained in engineering and science, Niamh stepped away from full-time research in 2003 in search of more meaningful ways to connect people with science, curiosity and discovery. A pivotal moment in 2011 reignited her childhood dream of going to space, setting her on an unconventional path that blends science, storytelling, art and public engagement.

We explore how Niamh transforms complex scientific ideas into compelling narratives, the lessons she's learned from astronaut training and simulated Mars missions, and why communication is just as important as discovery itself. From theatre stages to NASA, her journey demonstrates the power of following ambitious dreams and bringing others along for the adventure.

Join us for an inspiring conversation about curiosity, courage, and the art of making science matter.

SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.

Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Overview

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Kaylee Batesman, the Managing Director at SeaCan Code, and today we're discussing from complexity to clarity, a career in science communication. I've got the wonderful Dr. Neve Shaw, an Irish engineer, scientist, and award-winning science communicator, whose career has taken an extraordinary turn from academic research to analogue astronaut missions, zero gravity flights, and international space exploration. And we're going to explore a little bit on how Niam transforms complex scientific ideas into compelling narratives, the lessons she's learned from astronaut training and simulated Mars missions, and why communication is just as important as discovery itself. Welcome, Neve. I'm so excited to have you on here, by the way. So excited to chat with you. So thank you so much for finding the time to um come and have a chat with us and our community at Sheikan Code. It's a pleasure. Can we kick off with a little bit about you, please? We'd love to hear all about you and how you got into what you do.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Thanks very much, Kaylee. It's I love I love

Losing Confidence And Finding Space Again

SPEAKER_01 1:10

coming on um podcasts like this because I think we're all trying to learn from each other, really. How did I get into that? Well, that is the $64,000 question. I always had a passion for space. Like when I was a young girl, um around eight, it kind of started. Very empowered little girl who knew exactly what she wanted to do with her life, but kind of around my teens, lost a lot of confidence. I was bullied just before I went into secondary school. I don't know if that had something to do with it, but by the time you're filling out your application for college and things like that, there's just no sign of space anywhere near it. Um, so I'm clearly a technical kind of, you know, I have um confidence around technical subjects. So I study engineering, I did okay in science in school and in in physics and chemistry and things like that. But I I sort of I remember kind of around that time when I was filling out the application form, just feeling that life got ever so dull. You know what I mean? It was just like, is that it? Do you know? Like I wanted a really exciting career, and I remember that sense of, you know, and thinking that it was just that I had to grow up. But, you know, um, so I went on and I studied engineering, and I I I had gone from like being, you know, top of my class in secondary school to being very, very average um in in college. That was a bit of a struggle, but I think actually in hindsight, it was very telling. And again, I thought it was just like, oh, that's just the real world is really boring, you know. And uh always loved performing, you know, you couldn't get me off the stage like as a kid. I was singing and always in the school plays and everything. And so when I finished my in the middle of my degree of engineering, actually, I nearly left it to become an actor. I spent a summer in London working and I was working in this call centre, and one of the one of the managers, he was an actor, and I was like, what's it like to be an actor? And I was dating a guy and his brother was an actor, and I was just so glamorous. And I nearly left engineering in third year, but I said, no, I better, I better finish it. So went traveling and then came back and started my master's in engineering and started to get really interested in acting when I was when I was doing my master's and you know, applied to acting college, didn't get in, and I was like, oh, I'm just another dream, drop it knee, forget about it. And then um I did my PhD in science in an area related to my engineering. I did biosystems, so it was like environmental and kind of food. Loved, loved, loved my PhD. But then when I went to work in full-time academic research, hated it. I felt so isolated. Then um felt very disillusioned. I felt like what I thought I was going to be doing was very different. And so I ran away to be an actor for a while. And while I was while I had run away to be an actor, I started missing science. And I and actors and stuff would ask me, like, what does this mean? What does this mean? And so I started explaining science, and I had a little bit of um, I had a little bit of success as an actor. So everybody knew me. And that got me on wow, that got me onto kind of TV programs to become like the resident scientist, and I loved explaining things. And then I started bringing science and performance together. Um and and that was it. I remembered how much I loved space. It was a very painful moment that I had had done nothing about it, but from that moment on, I've never really let go this desire of mine to explain space, to be a part of space. But ultimately ultimately, to kind of really, you know, it's kind of an artistic question as much as a science communicator question is why is it we give up on the things we know we really want to do with our lives? Like what happens with those lost dreams? And where I thought I was an exception in my theater work where I was exploring, like, I do want to go to space and how do I do it? A lot of people approached me and said, This is what I want to do, this is what I want to do. And I was like, why do we give up on that? So um that kind of moment of of reality happened in 2011. So it's 15 years later, and I'm still I'm still on the same quest to see if I can get to space as a communicator.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

I love that. I like I I love the guests that come on here and tell us all about their stories and and um what they wanted to do. But what what you just said there would resonate with a lot of our community members as well, because especially the I studied something, and then when I actually went to go and do it, that wasn't what I thought it was gonna be. Um and we have quite a few community members who m say even if they study computer science at university and they come out and they think there was such a disconnect between what I actually learned and the world of work, and then you can move around and have that squiggly career and change your mind and go back to what you wanted to do as a child. And it is such a good question. Yeah, why do we lose our way sometimes when you do hit the world of work and you think, oh, like is this what you said, like just being a grown-up? Is this what I'm meant to do as a grown-up?

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, it's I don't know, it's weird. I don't think um now I think it was worse. You know, I'm in my 50s. I do think it was worse when I was coming out of school. I do see that, you know, this generation definitely pursue their passions first and foremost. I do see more of that. But it is interesting. I I just remember kind of feeling, gosh, is that it? Like, is this what life is? And just finding it utterly depressing, you know, and like it doesn't have to be that way, you know, even even if you, you know, for some people they have a mortgage or they have a family, and so financial you know, financial stability is a really important part of their of their you know, of of their sense of security, and I get that, but I still think there's space for you to pursue it as a hobby, even or something like don't let go of those passions. So when anybody ever asks me for advice, I always say just don't let go of the passion, just just find a way to express it in some way. And and you never know, it could blossom. For some people, it just takes over. Like for me, it just took over. But I I didn't know if that was going to happen. I just I wanted to just acknowledge that when I was a child, I knew exactly who I was and what I wanted to do. This is a theater show about my dream. I I want to just bring it to a theater show. I didn't expect it to mushroom, but you never know what happens. It's like you water, you give water, you know, like watering a plant, and the plant is your is your passion. Just, you know, just let that go in whatever direction, you know, you you want it to go, how big or how little, that's up to you.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

What was

Sci-Fi Role Models And Seeing Is Believing

SPEAKER_00 8:05

it about space as a child? Was there a role model for you? Some some somebody that you saw on TV, or like what was it that kind of made you think, I I want to go into that area?

SPEAKER_01 8:16

It was a couple of things. So, firstly, it was dad, so and my brother, like we were science fiction, not so so Doctor Who was was like a big thing in our house. Not so much the new series, it was the original one I really like. I don't know, I'm not really like I've watched the kind of news series, but my heart is in the original ones with Tom Baker and and all those people. But um, so we watched a lot of science fiction, but a couple of things happened. So dad worked in a subsidiary of General Electric, it was in Ireland, and it was in my hometown. And he was taken out the day after the moon landings by the Americans. Now, at the time, I didn't know why, and I don't think he knew why either, except it was just American. So he would he told us about that. So to me, I had a connection to the moon landings through my dad. Now, uh, subsequently, as a as a science communicator specializing in space, I was handed a document where somebody had catalogued Ireland's connection to space. And it turns out that at the time uh GE, it was called Echo, the subsidiary, were actually providing semiconductor diodes to NASA. So that's probably why they took that. So that was like it's so funny that uh subliminally I took that in as a child, and it sort of set the tone for me that that this was possible, and yet I didn't see anything in my line of sight in my hometown of Dundalk. So, you know, and then the other thing was as science fiction fanatics, um, we had moved then to Carlo, and my brother, he made his confirmation. We're we we were rared as Catholic, and you know, you get money for your confirmation basically. And um he took us to the local cinema where Star Wars was on. I didn't know what Star Wars was, but he was like, look, Dave, look, and the the cinema was empty. There was no one there. It was a matinee, it was myself, my youngest brother, who was four at the time. Um, I was eight, and he was he was eleven. And I can remember him, you know, in cinema seats, like they've they've they're kind of um they're spring-loaded and they're really heavy. There was the velvet ones, and he was jumping up, look, look, look, look, look. And I remember looking at him, going, This is important, this is important. And I remember like the credits and the galaxy far, far away. And then the first scene is Princess Leia, and I was like, Who is that? And I remember kind of going, Oh my gosh, she's so cool, because she was so sassy, and I loved her, and I just loved the world of Star Wars. And then um, it was like Cosmos, Carl Sagan's programme. So there was just all these positive influences around science fiction in the home and space, and I think that's really where it came from.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Yes, I love that we talk a lot on here and in our community about role models and visibility, and there there is it in STEM, it is very difficult to have those those female role models that you see and you think, I would like to do that, or I can at least see myself doing that because somebody looks like me in a similar position, and that's so I think we're getting better. Um, but some of the stereotypes of you know in the TV programs have been very outdated in the past, and um, I think we are getting there, but it really does make a difference who you see as a child to spark uh passion in something.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Um and I was lucky in my house that even though mum and dad never went to college, they just normalized that that was a reality, you know, like so they made that very real, and also because you know what we had this shared passion for space and science fiction, and what that does is it makes a career in STEM quite normal, even though so nobody said to me, being a girl isn't you know, it's it's gonna be difficult for you to have a career. Nobody ever said that to me. Maybe my career guidance teacher said it to me, but but in my family, nobody said that, and that's really important. Another inspiration was um when we moved to Carlo, so Dundalk was like we grew up on a street with kids and bikes, and you know, very, very kind of urban. And then we were in the countryside, and I it was like a culture shock for me. And and so my friends were gone, and I loved school. So dad would give me homework every day, and and he had, you know, we didn't have much, but they they never it it never felt that we didn't have much. He would pay for a book club, and every month we'd get a new um chapter of the children's encyclopedia, you know, and that was like Google at the time, you know, any questions that they had. And so he would say to me, Why don't you make a comic about your favorite planet, which was Saturn at the time, it's now Venus. And um he uh and I was like, okay, and I went through the went through the book about the solar system, and that was the first time I saw the picture of Earth from the moon, which was Earthrise, and that's when it really was about it. I was like, I can remember kind of going, I'm gonna do that. I want I'm gonna see that view in my lifetime. That's what I want to do. And it was just the most normal thing in the world. And then of course, when you get to be a teenager, you go, that's so stupid. But the lovely thing, Kaylee, is you're so right. Seeing is being. And so I had been saying for years, you know, if there had been an astronaut walking around Dundalk in the shopping centre or something, I would have applied to Issa at the European Space Agency, you know, I would have, I would have had a go at it. And so, you know, the work that I do now, which is all about communities and families, you know, making science normal, because that's the house that I grew up in, regardless of, you know, you know, what their influences are up until that point, I managed to bring a European astronaut to Dundalk as part of Science Week last year, Rosemary Kugel. And I just I got so excited thinking about well, they're not going to have to suffer what I suffered because they've just met one. And she signed, I got all these pictures of her, and she signed every single one of them. And and you know, from evaluations and stuff, some of the girls now have them on their walls in their bedrooms, you know. So we're gonna make we have smashed that one from my hometown. Seeing will be believing.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I love that. Yeah, because she would have inspired so many young girls to consider a career in that area as well, at least spark an interest in that area.

The Pivot From Academia To Storytelling

SPEAKER_00 14:35

I love that. Um, and so you began your career in academic research, but then you moved into the creative arts, as you mentioned. What was the moment though that you realized that science communication was going to be your thing rather than scientific research itself? Um and how did you realize that that was going to be the place where you'd make the biggest impact?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

So it was a number of things. It was, you know, when I was a postdoc, so I done my PhD, which I loved, I really loved the PhD, but when I went into research, I was utterly bored. I mean, I thrive with people, you know, I'm a born communicator and always was. I was always writing, um, loved connecting, I loved giving talks. I used to like I used to get awards for giving talks, loved being in the debating society and school and everything. And I just felt really isolated in research. I also, you know, power has never been something that I chased in my career. And it felt to me that in academia, in order to kind of stay the course, you you have to, power has to be a driver for you because it's all about the hierarchy, right? It's all about, you know, getting funding and then getting a lecture job. Then like if you're if you're not motivated by power, that's not interesting. And so I was lost really. Um and I thought it was just uh Ireland, I thought it was just the university itself. So I applied for at the back of the New Scientist magazine. I'm sure lots of lots of people um listening to the podcast know this. There's jobs and there was a job advertised for the exact area that I completed my PhD in in New Zealand. And I'd always loved like I'd spent a summer in Australia. No, I spent a year in Australia in a gap year and between um college and getting my first job. And it was for exactly what I had. It was in edible films, that's what that was what my research was on, my PhD. And so I went to New Zealand, had the interview. It was the top of the South Island, it was surrounded by uh national parks, it was stunning. But I was on my own at the time, my marriage had broken down and I was on my own, and I was just still kind of coming out of that. And so I decided I wanted to do one play that was really difficult to me. And in the midst of rehearsing that play, I went, I I don't actually want that job. I don't actually want to go to New Zealand, I just want to change. And um, that's when I started looking into acting. And the first few years as an actor, I didn't tell anyone that I had like two degrees in engineering and a PhD in science because I was so embarrassed. And I was actually beginning. I was so embarrassed, like, what's wrong with me? Like I'm flitting all over the place. And then I came across one theater company that were very progressive, and they loved the fact that I was this uh, you know, I had this depth of understanding how to kind of explain, you know, you read a paper and you understand immediately what that dense language is. That that's something that I really perfected in all those years. And so they were like, This is brilliant. Like, so you can you can bring that to the arts. And I realized in the rehearsal room when somebody would say to me, Why is the sky blue, Neve? What how do tides work, Neve? Or you know, the way because at the time, particle physics, they were the the Higgs boson and everything was coming out. And I did a bit of reading and I realized I had this aptitude to explain, but not only that, I had this aptitude to kind of make it relevant to everyday life. So I was very good at analogies and kind of personalizing it. And in that first show, that was the first time I flexed that muscle, and and I really liked it. And around that time as well, I started getting slots on TV and radio about like news that was, you know, science topics that were in the news. And it it I really enjoyed it, it didn't feel like work. And I was like, I think I think this is what I'm supposed to do. And the research bit, I anytime I would do it, I'd go, no, no, no, no, no. I just never wanted to get that specialized. I'd kind of panic. And so I think I'm better at reading other people's work and making it relatable to the general public. And I love particularly people who have no relationship with science. That's the public I love more than anything. And I've kind of based my career around uh focusing on bringing science to those people, particularly families, and particularly families who have no confidence around science and changing that. And that's what my project Town Scientists is all about.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

I love that. I think it's as well it once you've been in work a little while. When you first get into work, you think, well, I have to get a job. And I almost don't care what that job is, but I kind of get in it. We want to get in and you have to follow like a traditional path, and you have to then think about whether or not

Values First And Dropping Career Stereotypes

SPEAKER_00 19:25

I want to manage people or not manage people, and that's kind of where you think you're heading. In tech, we always say a lot of ladies seem to think that they have to head for like the chief executive that gives a speech at a conference, and she's got the beautiful blowout with the Chanel necklace, and that's what I'm meant to aspire to get to. And actually, I know a lot of people want to do that. That's fab for those ladies that do get there, but you reach this moment in your career where you think, actually, I don't have to do that, or I actually what are my strengths? It's almost like taking a moment to just breathe and think, actually, what am I good at? Where what do I want to do? Not necessarily the next step in that company or where I think I'm meant to be pushed. Um, and it takes quite a few years in work, actually, before you take that.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Nobody tells you, right? Nobody tells you. I was the same, I kept waiting to for it to drop. As I'd say, I kept waiting to be that person who enjoys wearing high heels, has their nails done, and keeps swishing keys. Like I had this thing about keys, and I go, and handbags, like I don't have a handbag, I have a rucksack. I have never, and each time I have a handbag, I feel like I'm pretending to be someone. And so I was the same. I kept waiting for this, you know, this phase in my career to come. And and what I would say is, I don't think people tell us enough to figure out what your values are. So your values actually tell you what kind of career to have. And when I realized that, and that was through all that started happening for me when I started making theater shows, because it was all about trying to understand myself, because that's what I was doing. I was trying to kind of understand why science was important to me and why is it I can't do what a lot of other people do. So your values lead you. So my values, I realized, were all about equal access. That was a massive one for me. And curiosity, sharing, sharing information for curiosity and the planet and like really, you know, climate change and all making the planet a better place for people. That they're they're my values. And when I realized that, it made perfect sense why I didn't enjoy an academic career. It made perfect sense why working in a company didn't suit. I think again, if you're not someone who wants to be in charge, and and that's connected to needing control or power or something. If you're not driven by that, you're never going to be that person on the stage. And the reason they're there is because that's what drives those people. They love that and they're brilliant at it. I'm not. And I realize I'm a collaborator. I love collaborating. I love a flat tier structure, actually. And I love play and really having an open mind. So those formal work structures, sure, no wonder I never did well. You know what I mean? But you feel a tremendous sense of failing because somebody tells you somewhere that if you're going to have a corporate career, that's high heels, lipstick, nails, handbag, and swishing peas. And I have never been that person ever, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

And working in the big uh glass building in London in a corporate and all of those things. And you're like, especially when um COVID happened and we went hybrid or like working from home or and like people's lives just changed massively. And that idea of there are lots of people that still want to go and do that, and they see that as a success and that's fab. But for those of us that didn't want to do that, it was almost like it everything became a bit more normalized. Like it's fine that we now do hybrid working and um we don't have to wear high heels to go to work and work in the big glass buildings and work our way up the career ladder. Um, which is a really good thing nowadays that has got a lot better, I think, um, for for a lot of people. But the more that we share stories of people and what they're doing, um, again, it comes back to that visibility thing of, oh, that could be my job. Um, we actually have a lot of community members who tell us in lockdown, they saw what their husbands did for a living. And um, they were working in tech and they were coders, and um they said, you know what, I I saw what my husband did for a living, and I thought, I could totally do that. So they retrained um in computer science. And I have one lady, she used to be an academic, she was a teacher, and uh she retrained and she's now a developer at um Marks and Spencer's because her husband was doing something similar. She was like, But I could work from home, I could do that. Like, I need that work-life balance because we've got children, and it's just great when you see someone else do something and just opens your eyes to what you could do.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah, it shows you because there's this mystery, you know, everyone thinks. I mean, I do think, you know, TikTok and I do think this current generation have really smashed those stereotypes for for so many of us. Yeah, and you're right, I think seeing how people work, you're going, oh, oh, I thought it was, and you're going, it's not that, you know. And you know, I thought like a successful career would be somebody who had a, you know, who had um a personal assistant to go, get me, get me Zach, uh, Zach Leotard on the phone, stat, you know, and give me four of those, give me that, you know, and it's just like that's not what it's like at all. And I think my time in the arts really helped me kind of unwind uh those stereotypes for myself and realize like I am this hybrid of a person that really wants to humanize science. And rather than feeling embarrassed about it, I started going, and actually, this is my superpower. And I and I always say to people early on in the career, the thing that you the thing that you're most embarrassed about, the thing that you think like, why can't I be more? That's actually more than likely your USP, and that's the thing that actually sets you apart. And you know, stop trying to be the same as everyone else, because because nobody is the same as anybody else. Everybody is different, but you're kind of told early on, and particularly around a teenager, all you want to do is be the same as the person who you think is the coolest. And actually, why you're different from the person who is coolest is exactly why you're cool. And the quicker we learn that, the more the kinder we are actually to ourselves, and the more we'll actually develop more fully into the person I think we eventually become, but it kind of gets stunted in your late teens, early twenties, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Yeah, it does definitely that oh that being kinder to yourself is something that unfortunately you don't realise until you do get a little bit older, and um and then suddenly you're like, I almost feel sorry for the person that I was when I started work, and you know, the things that you did try to hide about yourself, but um you know can't go back in time and and change those. We do get there eventually,

Making Science Clear Without Dumbing Down

SPEAKER_00 26:25

um, as you said. Um, but now you work um obviously in um science communication, and um many people they struggle to make complex scientific ideas accessible without oversimplifying them. Um, what's your approach to finding that balance between accuracy uh and engagement?

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Well, I read stuff, absolutely read stuff, and if I don't understand it, I'll go and Google and try to understand it. And then, you know, most of my stuff is space related. And thankfully, Dave, my husband, he's ex-NASA, so he's a he has an encyclopedic knowledge of it. So I will then go and verify that with him, or I'll just ask really stupid questions if I don't understand something. And then what I try to do is I go, okay, so if I didn't know anything about that, what what would be something that would help me understand it? So I always try to find analogies of really simple things. And actually the lived experience is my absolute preferred thing that I like to report on. So, yes, I write articles for the Irish Times and you know, you know, I do my I report about different space missions, but but going away and having my own personal experience of what space would be like is my absolutely favorite way to do it. So then I kind of, you know, when I did uh the simulated Mars mission in the Utah Desert, I relate that back to imagine being uh on one of those caravan holidays with your family where it's raining every day and you can't go outside and you're down to your, you know, you're down to just cornflakes, all the nice stuff is gone, and you want to kill each other. That's kind of what living on Mars would be like, you know, and so people go, oh and you know, you kind of tell it through that lens. So I use my lived experience or analogies that feel very normal to break down, particularly people's feelings of not having permission to understand or feeling excluded in that sector. And so I use that an awful lot. And once you kind of find an analogy that makes sense, it's incredible how quickly people, people's understanding uh develops and the questions become really, really smart and quite scientific because you strip away. I mean, why is science so excluding? It's this, it's the language, isn't it? It's all these terms, it's all the anagrams and and and and all these shorthands that we need in order to be able to rapidly communicate between each other. But if you have a fundamental understanding of that dense language, which you do when you complete a PhD, you then know if I strip that away, if I really understand it, then I should be able to really say it in a simple way. So if I can't understand it, then I lean on the language to kind of get me around it. But if I really understand it, I can I can give a really smart analogy. And that's the work. The work is to know that you really understand it and then be able to explain it to everyone. And then you know you've succeeded when people start asking you really smart questions.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Yes, I I couldn't agree more about some of the language that's used in, especially in anything to do with STEM. Um, our community members, we always say um it's the jargon, but especially once you get into work and you were kind of sitting there thinking, is anybody else thinking I have no idea what everyone else is talking about? And after you've been in work a while, you realize everyone else was thinking that, and it wasn't just you, and everyone went away and Googled everything. But we we have one community member, she came to one of our hackathons recently and she wrote a blog afterwards. And um, our hack day is for everybody, techie, non-techie, just come and give it a try. We build things for charity, it's super fun. And the blog she wrote afterwards said, I went to see Cranco's hackathon, and I nearly didn't walk through the door because she was it's that feeling of I'm gonna be so out of my depths, I'm not gonna understand, I'm not highly technical, not gonna understand what everyone's talking about. And thankfully her blog was had such a great day. Like just giving things a go in a in an environment where it's okay to try things you don't have to understand all of the jargon. But tech and and and so many areas in STEM, we do a brilliant job of turning people off with really complex words that people don't understand. And then people think, Oh, that's not for me. You know, I'd never be intelligent enough to to get a job in that area. AI is doing that at the moment. A lot of people thinking, oh, I could never get a job in that. When actually we need so many people in that at the moment. So, yeah, is it hard to get somebody to break it down like yourself? It just says actually it's a lot more simple than you think it is. It's just we we just make everything complex.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

And I think it stems from school as well. You know, there are some subjects that are subjective, like history, like English, uh, like languages, you know, and then there's very um, you know, black and white, one-zero, yes, no kind of subjects, and science and maths are those. So I think you know, there's a fear in those subjects that if you get it wrong, there's a sense of failure around that, right? Because, you know, when you when you get your maths results back, there's no, you know, it's either right or wrong. And you you rarely get marks for for trying or whatever. And I think that mentality of like you have to understand everything or you're gonna fail, that that sort of there's like a there's an ether around the STEM subjects about that, and it's very important to kind of shake that off and go, it's not actually about the right answer, it's actually about your path of understanding something. I gave grinds to my uh niece a few years ago and she was so terrified about maths. And I go, okay, all right. So so imagine you you're trying, you're in a room and it's kind of foggy and you're trying to get to the door. Okay. So there's lots of different ways of getting to the door. And the point of the exercise is to enjoy the fog to get to the door. If you just got straight to the door and there was no fog, what would be the point of that? And I said, that's kind of what Matt's is like enjoy the fact that when you start, you don't know where you're gonna end up. And it really helped her allow herself to just be confused because she goes, I don't know, I don't know the answer. I said, that's okay. It's okay to be foggy. Remember, we're in the fog, in the fog, and then we're gonna get to the door. And when you get to the door, it's gonna be brilliant. And sure enough, it just helped her understand that all the other people in her class are in the fog. It's not that she's behind, you know, and I think that's really important to let people know that sometimes the whole point about science and engineering is to enjoy figuring out how am I gonna figure this out and just sit in that and and trust that your unconscious is working away and is gonna say, try this, try that, try this. And sitting in that, I think, is way more fun than any other subject, but it's just that it's taught as in yes, no, wrong, right, one, zero, you know?

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Yes, yeah. And that it's you're so right with that confusion. It's you think you're the only one that's really confused. I also noticed in work that some people are better at hiding that they don't know what they're doing than others, and that's not something you caught on to until you've been in work a while and you're like, oh wow, actually, that person didn't know what they were doing. They would just they just knew how to communicate better or to hide the fact that they didn't know what they were doing.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

So yeah, but wouldn't it be better, Kaylee, if everyone felt comfortable saying, I don't know what I'm doing, but let's just try. And that's the art that like that's what I learned in the in the rehearsal room was that you come in with an idea, that's it, and you actually have no idea what you're going to create together. And the sense of freedom around that is incredible because you can just try. And I think hackathons are the same. It's that same thing about a hackathon. It doesn't matter, you know, there is no right answer at the end of the door. You'll just know when you get there. And I think embracing that uh that mentality into STEM subjects, I think is really important.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Yes, definitely. That freedom, um, landing in the right company that allows you freedom

What Changed After Saying It Out Loud

SPEAKER_00 34:40

makes a very big difference as well. Um, so back in 2012, um, you'd mentioned that you decided then to stop simply dreaming about space and start actively pursuing it. Um, can you sum up from your journey and what you've told us? Uh how did that decision just change the direction of your life and career and where you are now?

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Well, for the first time in my life, I actually things started happening. It was kind of mad. Like up until then, I've always been a hard worker, you know, work hard for exams and and you know, that that's really it. But the actual subject themselves was, you know, like I was saying with engineering or uh when I was doing research, um the job itself was kind of not interesting. And suddenly, because I had a passion for space, it's it's like people can see when you have a career that you're passionate about, everyone kind of gets excited around you, you know, and I'm I'm an excitable person anyway. So I brought that with me. So I made the show the first show, and that's when I realized, oh my gosh, I have to pursue this career in space. And then the second show was about I'm gonna genuinely see what happens when I say to the world, I want to go to space. And I thought that the show would just put it to bed, you know, that that I kind of gave it life and everything. And I started talking to astronauts and um through my network of people. Suddenly I was at the European Space Agency at a conference and I met met in person my very first astronaut, and suddenly everything was tangible. The show, uh, that show uh premiered in 2014 at the Dublin Fringe Festival. Edinburgh Fringe asked me to bring it to uh to their festival in 2015. I got invited on this uh nine-week uh residential programme uh with people, um, very senior people involved in space from all around the world, teaching you over nine weeks. I met a whole community of people who suddenly loved the fact that I was this artist and this scientist. And then um I took the show to um Adelaide Fringe, and and now I'm getting funded for my third show, which is about this fantasy piece about me being a scientist on Mars, because because of doing that nine-week intensive program, I get invited to do this Mars, this simulated Mars mission, which changed everything. And then I started writing about that and taking pictures about that and videos about that, and people like I was able to, I was able to attach kind of climate change to that experience. And then it just mushroomed. And um my relationship with the European Space Agency has continuously developed. And then um during COVID, they started launching astronauts from NASA Kennedy again, and uh the European Space Agency um allowed me to be on their list of media to go. So I found myself last April at NASA Kennedy observing the Artemis II launch and reporting for BBC, for Sky, for for um our Irish channels and writing about it, and it's just like mushroomed, you know, and um you know, the only thing that's stopping me now from having a, you know, and the experience of seeing the Earth from a distance, which is what I which is what I want to do, I want to see that view and report on it as a lived experience. It's just like uh saving up now for a seat on the suborbital. Like if Lina told me that in 2011, you know, the day I realized that I had to allow myself to try to have a career in the space sector. Um you know, in in 15 years, what's happened? It's it's unbelievable when uh you start to change your perception of what you are allowed to do in your life. Change the rules. So for me, the my biggest issue was someone like uh you from a small town in Ireland called Unduck, where they're where we don't have an Irish astronaut, that's just not possible neither, you know. And so when I started kind of going, well, why why why isn't it possible? And because of my passion, people would say to me, You should talk to this person, you should do this, you should do this. Suddenly a path kind of appears, and it's not like it's not like you know how you're going to get there. It's just that uh you have it in your sight, you have your objective in your sight. And so because of that, everything you do kind of gets woven into the fabric of that. And um yeah, and and and the piece that was always kind of uncomfortable for me about that was like it just felt really egotistical about I want to go to space. You know, it just felt like what's that about me? Because I've never been somebody that chased power or ego. It's like what why? And then I realized it was because I want to share it, I want to experience it so I can kind of break it down and and make it feel like the way I made the Mars mission feel. Like if I can do that, because astronauts talk about how that view of Earth from a distance has profoundly changed their understanding of the rules of life and and that we're one species. There's no countries, there's no boat borders, you know, all these factions that we have. It's kind of a dysfunction of what it is to be human, that you see that bigger picture. And astronauts are so incredibly capable and kind of like superheroes. Um, we don't see them as vulnerable people because they just go up and like what you say, they pretend that they're that they feel safe, they're they pretend they don't feel sick or that they've got a headache or whatever. But I wouldn't, I'd be like, oh my God, I feel you know, like I would give everything to it. And so I like, if if if I could do that, I I really believe that that is what everything has been about. And somehow at the age of eight, I planted that in my head and uh and I knew I had to do it. And at the time, even at eight, I was like, it's not about being an astronaut, it's about that. I want to see that, I have to see that. And and so it it just slowly shifted. But the biggest part of it is is to be kind to yourself. Like so the thoughts that we have, we are we would never say them to somebody else, but the things we tell each other are incredibly cruel. And what I was saying was someone like you, Need, you don't get to do that anyway. Who do you think you are? Like, why why would you be picked, or why would somebody give you that opportunity? And you have to say, actually, you know, anything is possible in your life. And uh if anything, uh the statistics about space and the distances and how incredibly uh unique it is to be alive and to survive in this, in this like just this mass of particles and that your particles decided to form you and you're alive for such a short, short period of time that waiting for permission is kind of insane. And thinking that somebody's gonna come come along and give you the opportunity is also insane. She just got to hustle and and don't be worrying about what people are thinking because when you're on your deathbed, hopefully you live till 80 or 90, you'll go, you'll have regrets about the things you didn't do. You will not regret the things you tried to do. And and I had to work really hard on giving myself permission for that. But it has, it's been an extraordinary life. So sharing what I realized was was it was rooted in my values, which is about sharing my joy of learning and my curiosity and finding an outlet for that, which is what town scientist is, was the piece that was missing. And once I started kind of doing that around 21, 22, like 2021, 2022, I got more comfortable with allowing myself dare to want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yeah. And I I wonder when those voices do start creeping in when you're younger, where you start thinking, actually, I can't, I can't do that. Even if there's people around you, I mean, we always say find your network and find other people that are almost, you know, your cheerleaders, but those voices, they they creep in at some point. And by the time you are going to university, you know, they might change what you study and and what you think is realistic for you know what your career should be. Um, but like you said, just just ignoring them or at least you know, just thinking, I wouldn't say that to a friend. You know, I I wouldn't say those things to a friend, so why do I say them to myself? And you know, just to to think what what would I say to a best friend? Um yeah, it makes such a difference.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

And um and um what I realized was so when I got to go to the European Space Agency, I met Irish people and I was like, How did you do it? Like they were over the me. I said, How did you do that? Like, because I couldn't see the European Space Agency. And what they did was they wrote to somebody, uh particularly at NASA, who wrote back to them, or they were a family that went on a holiday to America and they visited NASA, or um they had an aunt or uncle living in it, or they had a teacher who said, You look like somebody who has an aptitude for space or something. So just none of those things happened to happen to me. But but they're really important that you reinforce people's dreams. Like, like it's really important to say, of course you can. And so many people have come to me and said, I I really would like to do that. And I said, So what's your problem? And they start laughing and they go, It can't be that easy. I said, It actually is that easy. I'm telling you, you have permission to do this. So how can I help you? Let me see if I can introduce somebody. And just even do I only I got a message yesterday from somebody actually who contacted me when she was doing her our state exam, the leaving cert. It's kind of like your A levels, your A levels are your senior ones. Yeah. And she really wanted a career in the space sector. And I said, and and she goes, Is it that easy? I said, Yes, of course it is. Just what's your problem? And I kind of helped her with a few things. And she told me there that she's after getting a placement in some space company and she'd love to meet me. And I went, Brilliant. You know, so so you've you've got to you've got to verbalize it. You've got to tell someone, you've got to write a letter to somebody who's out there because I promise you they'll write back. Because nobody will quash passion.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Yes, exactly. And people love to help is the other thing. We've found with our mentoring program that people think, oh, you know, going off and finding somebody to support me and help. Yes, they're out there. People love to help people, um, and they they want to share, you know, what they went through and support somebody else. And it is

Why Story Makes Science Stick

SPEAKER_00 45:15

just a case of asking sometimes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and so now you um you obviously you combine a few things, science storytelling, theatre, public engagement. Why do you think stories are such a powerful tool for helping people to connect with science?

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Because I think everybody knows what a story is. It's so funny because I teach communication coaching sometimes to you know, early researchers and and academics about breaking down that dense language into something relatable. And story is the thing I kind of teach them more than anything. So it's been shown that you know, anthropologists will tell you no matter where you go in the world, um, all communities um love stories. And from a very young age, you know, you you we love stories, you know, you love to be read a story at night, or you love if you're if you're lucky enough to have access to a library or to have been introduced to books as a young child, you know, you're you're chasing the story. And television uh use a story, documentaries use story, even news items use story. Really good news telling has a story, and they'll talk about that. And as a writer, it's like, what's the story? You can't just go, I got up today, I met an astronaut, he was nice. It was raining, the end. You have to kind of you like if you read any article, they bring you in and they kind of tell you first impressions of that person, and then they'll go into that person's life, which is a story. So we understand story, it has a it's a very simple premise, it has a beginning, middle, and end. And um you there's usually a struggle or some sort of like a challenge, and then when you overcome the challenge, we feel very satisfied. And story, I mean, science is perfect for that. Every body of research is that challenge you're chasing. You have a beginning, you have a problem that you're trying to solve, and then you have a resolution. That's every academic paper that's ever been written, you know, and every good book and every good movie and every good sitcom, it's exactly the same. That's why I think story works.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Yes, and finding that story sometimes where that helps people just think actually, that's not as complex as I think it is. There's a great story in there that I can actually connect with. Um, we always encourage our community members to find their story, especially if they're transitioning from one industry to another. You just need to find your story. How do you tell your own story? Because a lot of people don't always sit back and think, you know, they think I've got these bullet points on my CV, but actually you've got a fantastic story that you haven't even realized.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah. And everybody is utterly fascinating, aren't they, Katie? I mean, you wouldn't be doing this podcast if you didn't agree with me. I find everyone utterly fascinating because everyone's journey is completely different. And I think it's worth just reflecting back about who inspired you in your in your early life, where were the major changes in your life? Because that's the spine of your story.

Simulated Mars Mission And Real Resilience

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Yes, exactly. Um, in your story, though, you've experienced some some things that I haven't said before on this podcast. Um astronaut training, simulated Mars mission, and zero gravity flight. Which of those experiences taught you the most about human curiosity, resilience, or exploration?

SPEAKER_01 48:30

I would say the Mars mission by far, it was it, even though it was 15 days, everything changed. It was so bizarre. So I was with some empowered 20-somethings, they were a lovely, lovely crew, and they were all very ensconced already in a career in space, you know, no self-doubt. Whereas I was in my 40s, loads of doubts. Um, I had never done a field trip before. These are all people that their research is in the field, so they're used to kind of getting samples outside. This was all new to me. They were geologists, astrobiologists. And we just spent 10, 15 days in a research facility that was built for purpose for for Mars research and for and for kind of journaling in the Utah Desert. And we uh we were cut off from society, there was no infrastructure there whatsoever. We had solar powered, we were given water and we were given food. And um, there was no personal space. I had a tiny, tiny room. Um, I couldn't bring anything really up of person. I like uh the only space I had in my case was for my equipment, my camera equipment and stuff, because I was there to write and report about it. And I had like two pairs of trousers and four tops. And these, you know, like when you're in a caravan holiday, you know, in a small space, you can feel people's moods very quickly. So everything magnified really quickly. But every time we went outside, we had to wear a suit. And so when you do that, it's really cumbersome and dangerous because your center of gravity is off and you have to communicate by radio and you have to drive these little ATVs to go and get samples, and you have to slow everything down in order to stay safe. Because if you fell, you'd really hurt yourself and you had to take care of each other. We had the day would just be packed with things that we had to get done. So you had to you had to really park. I'm tired, whatever. You just had to keep going. And the most important part for me was uh water. It completely underestimated how much I had taken it for granted. You've got two plastic vats of water, and that's it. That's to flush your toilets, to brush your teeth, to water, to make food because all the food was freeze-dried. And we had to monitor it every day. And I knew exactly every day what the level was, how much water we had left. We didn't shower when we were there. We flushed the toilets just for going to the for a poo and and for a wee, we just leave it. Um I was much hardier than I thought I was. I was more resilient than I thought I was. I cared about my crew. I put them first. I found all these characteristics in myself that I that I didn't know I had. But my appreciation for our planet, it just after about five days, I just was like, God, you know, we don't need money here. The only things that matter are water and each other. And I never forgot it. And even when I went back to Earth and my apartment seemed enormous, and I seemed to own a ridiculous amount of stuff that was far more useful to other people. I didn't need it, so I started giving stuff away. And um I I I I completely changed the way I bought clothes, the way I I I I became I stopped being a consumer. I just all that I completely detached from that need for stuff because I loved the freedom of just like I have enough. I have enough food, I have enough water, I'm challenged mentally, I I know what my purpose in life is. This is kind of all I need, really, and my friends and family, obviously, and my loved ones. And that profoundly changed things and it and it gave me a huge amount of self-belief as well, that I that I actually was was more capable than I thought I was. And my self-belief started to kind of get better from then on.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Yeah. Well, I mean, uh looking back, did you think, you know, before 2011 that you would ever have had such an experience as that?

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Never, never. And and it meant then when I whenever I was in a difficult situation, I would go, eh, you know, the Mars one, that was the toughest one by far. Everything was going to the Antarctic, going to the Arctic in a small cabin with strangers, nothing was ever difficult compared to that.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

Yeah, yeah. It sounds incredible, an incredible experience. And when you make that decision in life to try something new, where your life can take you, um, is incredible. One one

Practical Lessons On Clarity And Legacy

SPEAKER_00 53:10

tiny decision can make such a difference. Um, so for scientists, engineers, and communicators who want to share their works with wider audiences, what lessons have you learned about turning complexity into clarity? And also in general, what lessons have you learned? I mean, you've you've been through such a career already. Um, it would be great to kind of get a summary of those wider lessons that you think that you you have learned so far.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

I think um don't take for granted your unique perspective on subjects or topics. So even if somebody has heard a piece of information before, how you interpret it gives it new life. So so even if you're visiting a school and you're going, oh, they've probably heard this before. No, but they haven't heard it from you. And what makes information interesting is how you connect to that information. And what I always tell, you know, the researchers and stuff that I work with, why do you care? That's the most interesting thing about information, is where did you come across that? What's the story around that? And that will that person will remember that piece of information far better if you kind of personalize it. So I've just been leaning into that more and more and more that I tell stories around the things that I experience or the things I'm trying to explain. And that that works really well. I think if you've been lucky to have had an opportunity to go to college um, or to have an opportunity where you you have access to lovely technical information, there are there are so many people out there that haven't had that opportunity. And you know, people call it privilege, or they call it, you know, um social mobility, um, whatever you want to call it. Uh I I feel very responsible to share with other people what I've experienced and and and hope that it breaks down at least for one person in a room every time I speak, whatever barriers they have to thinking that they're not smart, or that science isn't for them, or that maths isn't for them, or that you know they're not smart enough to understand something, that that they realize that they are. It's just that the method of inform the way they were told the information the first time just didn't fit for them. It's important to encourage people to go on a journey of learning. It's really important to keep being curious. And it's it doesn't stop with your GCSEs or your A levels, it doesn't stop with your degree. Um, I think pure life satisfaction comes with fueling your curiosity. So, whatever that passion is, it doesn't have to become your full-time career if you're not in a position to do that or you don't want to do that, but it's really important to keep fueling your curiosity and also encouraging other people to fuel their curiosity because sometimes people think they're not allowed or they can't. Just saying yes to somebody can actually really, really help. And then lastly, I would say if you if you think about your legacy, what what is it that you want to do that will positively impact the world? So for me, it was about my my town scientist uh project. The the thing about going to space just didn't sit with me because I felt I didn't, I wasn't giving back. So, how can you give back? How can you shift that dial in encouraging more women to uh to have a career um in STEM or anything basically, or any minority groups? What can we do to level the playing field? You know, and and if that's not your passion, then what legacy are you going to leave? Because just being yourself and talking about something from your perspective is absolutely fascinating and very, very valuable to the community.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

Yes, I I couldn't agree more um on everything that you said. And it's something that we we try and advocate for our community to um find themselves throughout their career and um find that story and tell that story. And that's what so we work with lots of employers that want to hire a more diverse workforce and being your authentic self and finding out who that is, that's who our employees want to hire. They want you to be different and um then get into that point in your career where you think, well, what am I actually doing now? How what is that legacy? Um that is the turning point as well, where it becomes not just you moving through your career, but how can I give back and help other people that uh have been through those struggles as well. Um, I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

Yeah, yeah. And and and it I think it's very rare for people to have, oh, I got so much in my A levels, then I studied this, and I've spent my whole life in this one job. I just don't, they're a minority. So you will have a squiggly career, and actually you're far more interesting if you have a squiggly career because there is there is a thread through all of it, and it'll take you maybe till your 40s or your 50s to figure out that thread, but there was actually a line. You just can't see it. You haven't seen it yet, yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

Um, Neve, we're already out of time. I could keep talking to you on this topic because it has been an absolute pleasure picking your brains today. Um so thank you so much for joining us and spilling the tea. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Thank you, Kaylee.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Thank you, and thank you for everybody listening. As always, thank you so much for joining us, and we hope to see you again next time.