How to break the glass ceiling without breaking yourself

What does it really take to reach the top in a male-dominated corporate world—and how do you do it without losing yourself along the way?

In this episode, we're joined by Patty Azzarello, former Hewlett-Packard executive, tech CEO, TEDx speaker, and author of Why is SHE Still Here? Patty became the youngest general manager at HP at just 33, ran a billion-dollar software business by 35, and stepped into a CEO role at 38. But behind the impressive titles was a journey marked by sexism, self-doubt, workplace bullies, and the constant challenge of proving she belonged.

Patty shares candid stories from her career, including moments when she was literally overlooked and forgotten in the workplace, and reveals the lessons she learned about leadership, resilience, and staying true to yourself while climbing the corporate ladder. We discuss overcoming imposter syndrome, managing social anxiety, navigating toxic work environments, and why success shouldn't come at the expense of your wellbeing.

Whether you're aiming for the boardroom, building your confidence, or simply trying to thrive at work without burning out, this conversation offers practical wisdom and inspiration from someone who has lived it.

SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.

Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.

Transcript

Breaking The Ceiling Without Breaking

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Katie Bakesman, the managing director at SeaCan Code, and today we're discussing how to break the glass ceiling without breaking yourself. What does it really take to reach the top in a mal-dominated corporate world? And how do you do it without losing yourself along the way? I'm joined today by the fantastic Patty Azzarello, former HP Executive, Tech CEO, TEDx speaker, and author of Why Is She Still Here? And we're lucky to have her today because we're going to chat a little bit about Patty's impressive career, including moments when she was literally overlooked and forgotten in the workplace and the lessons she learned about leadership, resilience, and staying true to yourself whilst climbing the corporate ladder. Patty, it's a pleasure to have you on here. Thank you so much for taking some time out to join us today.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Oh, thank you so much, Kaylee. It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Thank you. Well, um, I know our community are going to want to hear all about you. So could we get uh started with a little bit about you, an overview, and um how you ended up where you are today?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yes. Um what's interesting is the book I've just written, Why is she still here, is pretty much the answer to that question because it's a really weird story. So let me let me just give you like a a couple of the the touch points of this story here.

Choosing A Different Path Early

SPEAKER_01 1:22

So um there was a moment that sort of launched me in an in a direction pointing toward tech. I didn't know it at that moment, but I was a little kid, and the Italian side of my family used to have these epic picnics on the weekend. And I was sitting in the grass by myself and I was watching all of the adults unload the cars, all the coolers, all the stuff. I'm watching them carry a grill, and then I'm watching them carry a stove to a picnic. And um Italians want to cook pasta at their picnics, right? So a day, a day of a day of food. But what really struck me on this particular day was I was just watching all the adults, and I was what once everything was unloaded, the women got busy and they were emptying the coolers and they started cooking and they started prepping and they were serving. And the men went off and were playing ball. And then first food happens, and then the women all day cook, clean, serve, repeat all day. And the men are playing ball and laying in the sun drinking. And I just remember my head like going from the women to the men, from the women to the men, from the women to the men, and landing on the men saying, That's the one I want. Like that's the kind of life that I want. And I I just decided in that moment, and it's not kind of as far out as it sounds, because when I grew up, women were being told you have to be pretty so you can find a good man and get married and have kids. And that was the whole path that was presented to girls at my time. But my mom, from as long as I can remember, would tell me and my sister, you're gonna grow up, you're gonna go to college, you're gonna get a good education, you're gonna support yourself. That's up to you. Do not expect a man to support you. You need to do that yourself. And so um I thought in that moment, well, the women are people and the men are people, and I'm a person. So I'm gonna choose what the men are doing. Okay. Yeah. And I didn't exactly know how to do that, but my mom's insistence that I was gonna go to school and get a good education was my path. So I became very, very focused and little girl stereotype super student. Um, and at the same time, though, I was an artist. And I loved drawing and painting and singing and theater and like all of this stuff. And I was registered by the time I got to college as a fine arts major.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

But I heard my mom's voice in my head saying, You will get a good education, you will get a good job, you will support yourself. And I literally, at college orientation, crossed out on my paper form, fine arts, and I penciled in electronic engineering, and I went and stood on the electronic engineering line, and I proceeded to get my my engineering degree, which then launched me into the tech world where I stayed and built a career for decades.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Oh, wow. Although, has the fine arts supported you in some way? I have spoken to a couple of people who actually did arts and fine arts, and they ended up in tech, and they said, actually, I was really pleased I did that because I didn't realize tech was creative until I got into tech. And there's that misconception of you you're not going to be creative if you go into tech. So it wouldn't have been time wasted, surely.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

So, but it would not have been a practical career. No.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

It's that moment when you joined a different queue that day made all the difference.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Yep. So um I'm actually getting back to to art now. And I've I've dabbled throughout my lifetime, but um I really I was I was on the tech career and I was doing well, and I just found myself pot following a path of more and more getting more and more gold stars, which then ended up to in the terms of money and promotions along the way. And I just I just stuck on that path. And I loved my I loved my tech career. Um, and I'm I I never look back and and wish I did the different thing. And now I have I have a nice um opportunity to get back to more creative and artistic things.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

I love it when people say that, when they didn't realize they were going to go into tech, but actually they've never looked back. Yeah. And that it wasn't something that they regretted. I I haven't actually spoken to someone that said that was the worst decision I ever made going into the tech industry.

Why She Wrote The Real Story

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Um but your book, um, why is she still here? Um I wanted to know a little bit about uh like how did that happen? Like when was that moment where you thought I I really need to write that book?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

So this is an interesting question because I I have I have spent my career and it was a journey, and it was a weird journey, and it was a hard journey. But along the way, I figured out what works. This is how you do that. And I've written two other books, Rise and Move, which are very much me sharing my knowledge of this is how you do that, this is how you get ahead, this is how you become a leader, this is how you lead an organization. And uh I was getting the sense over the years that people would see me and they would see my career success and they'd look at these books and they viewed me as somebody who like had their act together the whole time. Yep. And I thought at this point in my life, it was just so important to share the reality behind that success. And I decided not to write another instruction manual, but to really share my personal story in a way where I wanted to communicate not the things about me that were different than everybody, but the things we all experience, and particularly the things women experience in the world, in the work world and in the and in the tech work world. And I wanted to share all of my internal messiness and all of my insecurities because I was scared the whole time. Like I just want to be really clear about that. I did a bunch of big, impressive looking things, but I was scared the entire time. And so I wrote this book to encourage others who might be feeling unworthy or scared or insecure about going after their goals to think, wow, like she she faced all of those things and she was super insecure about it, and she was scared a lot of the time, and she fell off a stage once. Oh my god. And that was not the most embarrassing moment of my whole career. I also shared the most embarrassing moment of my whole career in this book, and it's just this idea that if you if you give into your insecurities and you you live your life in your career trying to avoid embarrassment, you're not gonna get anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

And it's just really important to know that everyone is scared. I had a mentor once tell me, Patty, all executives are bluffing. All of them. There is no way that you can know everything about your job at an executive as an executive at all times. And everyone is bluffing. And those those insights were such a gift to me that let me know it was okay to just be a regular insecure human and still go for big things. That I wrote this book to to pass that that gift on to others. Like trust yourself and go for it.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

I love that. I there are so many things in there that I just I just couldn't agree more with, especially with the bluffing, because that that again is something that you don't notice until you have been in work for a little while and then you start moving into leadership, and you have that moment where you think, right, I'm supposed to know everything because I'm the leader and it's my job to know everything. And then you have that panic where you're like, I don't know everything, and I'm not meant to, because I have a team that knows the the weeds, they know the day-to-day. I don't have to know everything. That's why we have a good team and why we pick people that plug gaps that are very good at what they do. Um, and it takes ages to almost realize that because you think I'm failing because I don't know everything that is happening. Um, and you can't tell anyone. It's the other thing. Um, we've been told on on on here uh quite a few times in our community that um moving into leadership is a very can be very lonely because you almost don't have anyone to confide in. And say that you don't want to be that person that's like, I don't know everything. So actually, who do you confide in if you haven't got you know somebody outside of your company, for instance, that you really trust? Um it can be a very lonely place.

Learning Leadership Through Delegation

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Um you know, as you say that, it it made me think of uh of a moment in my career where I was very, very lucky to be put in a particular situation. I started my career in tech as an engineer. I hated being an engineer, hated it. And I thought my life is over. You know, this is what I'm trained to do. I'm an engineer. I hate being an engineer. Game over. Um, so through a through a sequence of things, I discovered the role of sales engineer, which was to be a technical person to support the sales cycle. And so I left engineering and I went into that role. Then I migrated into marketing roles for a while. Um, and you know, my tech background allowed me to do really effective marketing for tech companies. And that was a wonderful example of you know what you could, the number of things you can do with a with a tech background is extraordinary. Yeah. So just fast forwarding, I had spent a few years in marketing roles and I had an opportunity at HP to lead uh one of two large organizations. One was the marketing organization and one was the RD organization, which were software developers. And I knew by that point in time that I had aspirations to become a general manager. And I had spent the last years in marketing, and I thought, I'm gonna take the tech job. Like I just to support my long-term goal, I thought that was gonna be better support of my long-term goal. But the amazing thing that happened there is since I had been out of tech for a few years, I was out. Like you, you know, things move so quickly. And today, you know, just a few weeks, you're gonna lose track of what's happening. But I had been out for a few years. So I ended up leading a hundred-person organization with multiple levels of management of software developers. And what was the gift in that is I had I had no idea how to do the jobs of the people who were working for me. If I had taken the marketing job, I probably would have thought, well, I'm the best marketing person here. So let me go in and help you with that. Let me go in and make those decisions and do all of this stuff. But I was like absolutely prevented from jumping down and trying to replicate the work that my team was doing. And so I had a mentor give me um amazing advice that I didn't understand. He said, Patty, your goal is to delegate 100%. Everything that comes to you, delegate it. And I thought, well, what do I do? Right? I'm I'm this new big leader. What what do I do now? But I couldn't, I had to delegate because I didn't know how to do the work. And I tell you, that helped me and made me learn that leadership lesson you were talking about instantly. Because if I can't do, if I can't impress people by being as technical as they are, I can't do their work. What do I do? How do I add value? And I figured out all the things you need to do as a leader that you should be doing. And I figured out why that's so much better. Because otherwise, you're just you're competing with your team. You're constraining your team. If you have to act like you're the one who knows best and you're the smartest and you know everyone as a leader, your team isn't growing. Your team isn't isn't thriving. But I learned I had to set agendas and create clarity and communicate and connect with other organizations and be connected with the customers in the external world. And there were all of these things I needed to do as a leader that did not involve me being the most technical, the most smart one. And thank God, because that was when my career was able to take off in the leadership direction. And otherwise, I would have just been stuck being a bad technologist.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

That's such good advice, though. If you are faced with two different jobs like that, you you know, just go with the one actually that you don't know a lot about because you are going to be um working differently with your team in that way. Um, I'd never even thought about that. That has happened so often to so many managers that get in the weeds of their team and don't let those people grow and flourish as they should be. And instead of empowering them to um grow as a team, you're there dipping in and saying, I know better because I've done this. Um and I'd actually never thought of it as if you face with that decision, um, you should always take the one that you don't know um much about. Because in your career, I mean you you mentioned this, but um, to let our listeners know, you became the youngest general manager at HP at just 33 and a CEO at 38. So that is Mafire for you. Um and looking back, what what was the biggest mixed misconception that people had about your success and what was actually happening behind the scenes? And you touched upon that a little bit already. Like people must have thought she's so got everything together, like she's just got it together. But misconception possibly.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

So, um, so in that role, I chose to, you know, lead the software development team. I was really, you know, share some of the insecurities. I was really scared and insecure about will they accept me as their leader? Right, will they think that I'm credible? And I worried about that for for quite a while. But I ended up creating so much value and making their lives so much easier in terms of enabling them to do the jobs they needed to do, that I ended up getting in my performance evaluation. My boss got feedback from my team, and many of them said Patty's the best manager I've ever had. And with that, I thought, I'm on to something here. Like I I had my, you know, this idea of lifting others up, of making people on my team feel like superheroes. That was that was a big part of what I did. But yeah, I I I advanced quickly. And I think the biggest misconception, or I don't know if it was a misconception, it was the a true conception, was like, she's so young. Like, how can she have this big job? She's she's so young. And I worried, oh my God, I worried about my age and I lied about my age. I kept my age hidden as this enormous secret for for so many years of my career. I I always joke that um, you know, I'll I'll I'm pretending to be 40 for 40 years of my life because it's it started when I'm 20, and then when I crossed 40, I decided there's no reason to give up on that. Like 40 is 40 is my favorite number. Um, but yeah, it was like I was female in a very male-dominated

Credibility Battles And Low Expectations

SPEAKER_01 18:29

environment. I I was in another situation where um I got a job opportunity because a mentor opened the opened a door for me, right? So those amazing, you know, those things that sound amazing about my career. The other thing I want to say is I had help. None of those breakthroughs would have happened without a mentor encouraging me, coaching me, and literally getting me access by opening doors and telling hiring managers you need to interview Patty Azzarello. You don't need to hire her, but you need to meet her, you need to interview her. Um, so that was foundational in terms of the success I was able to create. But I was in one environment in particular where the hiring manager clearly wanted somebody that looked more like him and everybody else on his team. And he kind of begrudgingly hired me because I won the interview process, but he was not happy about it. Um, and I felt so unwelcome and out of place in that role. And and regularly, people would be like, Well, I can't explain this to you because you're not technical enough. And I'm like, give it, give it a try. Like, I might not be able to do the work, but if you explain the issue, I'll be able to understand it. And just dealing as a as a female and as somebody judged as not technical enough with low expectations. Yeah, that's the thing that's is a theme that has carried through my whole career and my whole wife as a as a woman is how much we just have to prove our existence at every minute, prove our right to be in the room at every minute. And and that feeling like if you slip up and make any mistake, you're giving them the excuse they've been waiting for to just bounce you out of the room. Um, and so in this particular environment, people would say, you know, say that to me, you're not technical enough. And finally, after a while, um, and this job was to lead sales and marketing for this organization. And everybody else, all the engineers, um, which was the vast majority of the organization, and my my engineering manager peers would be like, She's not technical, you're not technical enough. And finally, I just looked at them and said, You don't need me to be more technical. Yeah, look, look around you. There are technical geniuses everywhere. You don't need another one. What you need is me. And by the way, I'm in I'm running sales and marketing. You need me to translate all of this amazing technology that you're building into product offers that people will want to buy. And you need me to make a way, make the market aware that we're here and so that people know to come and find us and and buy these things. That's why you need me. You don't need me to be more technical. And I like really got in their face about it after many, many months. And and I turned the corner. We ended up having a really good rapport. They ended up really valuing what I brought to the organization to the point where they they got it that they could not have succeeded without me doing my thing. Um, so that was it turned out to be a really big win. But man, just the that job and other jobs, just dealing the low expect dealing with the low expectations and that question of why is she here? Why is she still here?

SPEAKER_00 22:02

It's so frustrating when you hear that because imagine if you know you didn't have people like yourself that is translating what is happening in the the technical side of things. If those people that are very, very good at what they do in their techie cannot translate what they're building, that's where you step in. You know how to tell the good story, you know how to make it sellable. And it's it's just so frustrating when that happens, um, not just in tech, but in any industry. And um, we had a chat on this podcast a few months ago with um somebody that was very technical and somebody that was from commercial sales, and the whole conversation was the company wouldn't survive without either side. So sometimes, yes, you can butt heads on what you would like, um, but the company can't survive without um those people. So, yeah, for somebody to keep saying you're not technical enough is just not true. That's not how a tech company thrives or you know sells their story.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah, I I think that aspect is is is changing and just the whole the whole manner of communicating in the world has changed so much since since I was doing marketing and sales that I think there is a much greater appreciation for people who are gifted at influencing and communicating, which is a great, a great point of progress for all of us.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yes, definitely.

Building Teams That Feel Superhuman

SPEAKER_00 23:28

And in your book as well, you write openly about dealing with sexism, workplace bullies, um, and imposter syndrome. Um, was there a particular experience that really changed the way that you saw yourself as a leader um and that gave you the confidence to to keep going? Must have been some experiences like you just mentioned there, but was there a moment where you were like, yes, I am the leader here and I do have the confidence to do a really good job at this company?

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah, you know, there was one um transformative, a transformative moment in in that job where I was running the software development organization where my boss called me into his office and said, Patty, we've got a big problem and it's your, you've got to fix it. You know, this is this is on you. And he he told me what the problem was. And I have to admit, I didn't, I didn't understand the problem. I didn't understand why it was a problem. Like I just had the words that here's the definition of a problem that I needed to go fix. And so I wasn't sure what I was gonna do about that, but I got my team together. And by then I had had some good groundwork with this team. We had a really good rapport, we'd had some successes under our belt. So it wasn't, it wasn't my first moments in this job, but I called them together and I thought, I honestly thought that I was gonna tell them about this problem. They were going to educate me about this problem, and then it was gonna be my job to take what they said and go do something. And so I we sit, we sat down and I told them what the problem was, and they were just off to the races. One of them are like, you know what? I had a sense we were gonna encounter this problem. This is in my area. I'll have my team make a modification to the way we do these database calls. And someone else said, you know, we need to communicate this this way. And another person said, Well, I'll make sure to project manage this and we'll get a schedule together. Patty, would it suit you if we have a schedule together to fix this um by the end of tomorrow? And I was like, uh, what just happened here? And I thought, I I just thought, oh my god, like now, now I not I know I know what a what a leader is, right? I know I your my job as a leader is to is to make sure that everyone on my team is smarter than I am.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

If everyone on my team is smarter than I am, and I create an environment where they all have clear roles and they have a clear sense of accountability, and I create uh uh the right processes and the right communication mechanisms, um, my team can do things that blow my mind. Things I could never conceive of doing. My team can blow my mind. And at that moment, I thought that's what I want to do. I want to be a leader who builds great teams. And I was very good at at process and creating clarity. So my teams always had a clear strategy, clear deliverables, measurables. I held people accountable in a in a kind way, so nobody was afraid of me. Um, and I just decided that's what I that's what I love about leadership. And and years later, I got uh an email from someone on that team that said to me, Patty, when I worked for you, I felt like I was Superman. I love that. Yeah, you trusted me, you gave me big stuff to do, you you made the environment chaos and drama free, you supported me to do my thing, and I felt like Superman. And I thought that's what the job of a leader is. And and ever since I got that email, I've I've been really literal about that. My job is to make people feel like superheroes.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yes. And it's such a nice feeling as well of when you that feeling of you've got the right team and that you can take problems to them and you know they're gonna solve them. Like it isn't a case of, oh my gosh, like this problem has happened, like we're just gonna have to bury our heads in sand and hope that nobody notices. It's a healthy environment. We have a problem. I know youth can all solve it. We need to talk about how we're gonna solve that, and then you know, then we'll talk about what we did and how we move on, and you know, don't repeat mistakes that we might have experienced in the past. But it's it's such a that environment that you're in, it makes such a difference to your day-to-day. And um your uh on here, we had a topic recently about psychological safety and having that feeling in work of yes, there is a problem, but we can tackle that problem, and here's how we're gonna do it, it's fine. Um, rather than that chaos, as you mentioned, and then you just think, yep, I'm trying to find a way out of this company because I don't feel safe.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yeah, you know, just one quick point on

Kind Leadership With Real Accountability

SPEAKER_01 28:44

that. Um, I I had been told for much of my career, Patty, you're too nice. Um, you need to be more aggressive. You know, corporations are nasty, aggressive places. You need to fight more, you need to be more aggressive. And I just thought, you know, I I can't do that. And there are number, there are a number of stories in the book about when I felt like my career was being limited by being too nice. And I know a lot of women get told this. And I just I just stuck to my guns and and and found a way to succeed um without turning into a miserable jerk, right? It's so many, I mean, it doesn't, it's not hard to find successful leaders who are just you know, terrible people. Yeah. Um, so I I can't say that doesn't work because it does, but I just I really want to offer another choice that you can be a powerful business person and a powerful leader and still be a kind person. Um, kindness does not equate to weakness. And I found my way forward being fiercely committed to never becoming a bully myself. As you had mentioned, I was bullied as a child. And I just I know how awful that feels. And so it became part of my leadership mission to make people feel psychologically safe. People are not productive when they're self-protecting. And there are so many business leaders that just don't get that. Oh, you have to, you have to lead with fear. You have to make them afraid of you. It's like, nope, I will never, I will never bully someone or make them afraid. Um, that's just never gonna happen. And um I I found my way forward using using kindness, you know, a combat, what I talk about in the book is a combination of um accountability plus love is my leadership strategy.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yes, that's a great way of of um summing that up. And and you are, I think um back in the day as well, I I've had so many women in leadership tell me that their uh role models and their their mentors were men. And sometimes when they got into those leadership positions, they actually were just copying what they'd experienced in the past. And then actually they they hadn't realized that the business was looking for them to be their authentic self instead of just emulating, you know, previous managers, whether male or female, that might have taken on that aggressive stance of being, you know, very masculine in um the way that you run a business. And actually, companies are looking for you to just be yourself, whether or not, you know, uh what that is like. Um and for the long term, it's better as well because people stay for uh longer. I mean, to keep having such a high turnover at a business is not good for business, um, because like you said, people are just self-protecting. They're not, you know, they're trying to think of an exit plan. Yeah.

Drop The Act And Be Human

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yeah, that that's one of the um one of the the insecurity threads through my through my book is is how do I show up? How do I show up as a person so I'm taking so I'm taken seriously, so I'm respected. Um should am I too friendly? Am I not friendly enough? Like that whole thing was a very fertile ground for my internal critic, just telling me, Patty, you're weird, you don't know how to talk to people, you don't know how to show up, you don't know how to do whatever. Um, I was terrible at networking events. There was just like I said, it was a rich vein for my internal critic to just say, you don't, you don't know how to be a person. Like you don't, you're you're you're not uh you're not good at this. And so I, you know, my my my shyness and crippling introversion was I knew was not serving me. So I did my best to, you know, get over it and and and throw myself into situations. But there was a lot of uh there was a lot of insecurity along the way. And I was given another gift by a very, very, very senior executive that I had an opportunity to have a meeting with. And I was really nervous when I walked in and I had, you know, my five points and three questions prepared and was going to be very efficient with his time. And he just I sat down and he's like, How are you? And um, and I was like, uh, I'm I'm okay. How are you? And he's like, Man, it's tough out there. I can't believe it. Like sometimes I think the competition is gonna steal my pants. I just I can't believe how hard this is. And I'm not sure sometimes if I made the right decision to go this way instead of that way. What do you think? And I was just like, wait, what is happening here? Like I was expecting this very formal, buttoned-up, big, scary executive. And not only was he acting like a human being, he was treating me like an equal and and telling me he didn't know everything. Like right in our first meeting, he was so casual and human in that meeting. And I thought if anybody I've ever met deserved to act like a big shot, it was him. He was officially a big shot, right? Um, and to see a big shot not acting like a big shot, that was one of the the biggest gifts I ever got. And I just I I totally reprogrammed myself in that moment. And it was like, Patty, just stop trying to to act impressive. And and I've on hindsight, I realized no one is actually more impressive when they're trying to be impressive. It's sort of this sad, desperate kind of behavior. Um and and I thought, you know, I just, I just I don't, you know, acting powerful, appearing powerful, appearing like a big shot is just not necessary. And that just allowed me to squish a lot of what my internal critic was telling me. I could just didn't have to do that. Um, but I wasn't sure exactly what to do. And so I thought, you know, who knows the answer to this? Mom. I'm gonna go ask my mom. And I'm like, mom, I had this experience, and he was just being so human, and it made me so comfortable and I trusted him, and it made me not worried about acting powerful. And she's like, Patty, um, yes, you have to, you have to give people something more of yourself. You can't just show up so formal and business like all the time because you're not giving people something to connect with. And I'm like, but what do I do? What do I say? Like, still the awkward introvert at play. And she's like, just tell them about your or tell them about your art, tell them about your bike riding, tell them about, you know, some this goofy thing that happened to you. And I was like, oh, I could do that. That's not that hard. Um, and so I started showing up and and being more human and being a bit warmer and asking people, how are you, more than I did before, starting every meeting with, how's your day going? How's your week going? And it was just, it was just such a relief. And I felt I felt so much better and more confident at work and how I was supposed to show up. And it finally occurred to me that, you know, nobody wants to have a drink with five points, three ideas and two questions. Yeah. You gotta give them a person on the other end of that. So that was um that that is a that is a rich theme of the insecurity that that carried me forward for a very long time in my career. And it was a gift from that executive to help me sort that out, along with mom.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

I love that because if you're authentic as well, it gives other people permission to turn up as their authentic selves as well. Um I love that that you you had that

Boundaries That Protect Ambition

SPEAKER_00 36:44

moment. Um I I wanted to ask you about boundaries as well, though, because you know you've spoken a lot about career success and um um and those moments where you uh realized um uh what was next for you and and how to show up as a leader. Umitious people they feel like they have to choose between career success and their well-being. Um, so what does that break in the glass ceiling without breaking yourself uh look like in practice? Because, you know, what what are some of those boundaries that you wish that you'd set in place earlier in your career?

SPEAKER_01 37:18

So um, you know, again, this is another one of those examples where I ended up not making a brilliant choice, but just being um confronted with an immovable object, just like that story about not being able to do the job of my tech leaders. So I had to figure out how to do a leader. Um, another part of the story in the book is that I I have had some physical problems, health and physical problems in the earlier part of my life. And when I got into the workplace, I just did not have the same amount of physical energy that others had. But I was still super ambitious. And so I just had to figure out how do I serve my ambition and move myself forward and get ahead without working as hard as everybody else. It was it was it was really that simple. Like I could not work, I could not work every weekend. If I didn't have that recovery time on the weekends, I would just get sick. Um, too much travel would make me sick. Um I couldn't just work long nights and do email after dinner. I really needed to build in enough recovery time. And and again, it wasn't because I was so brilliant and figured this out. It was simply that I didn't have a choice. And so um I had to figure out how to add more value in less time. And this this is one of the most important things that every every person at work, in your life in general, and every leader, it's the hardest thing, but it's the most valuable thing, is to just make trade-offs and choose on purpose what you spend your time on. And don't get sucked into endless reactive, chaotic work and think your willingness to muscle through all this work is going to get you recognized. It's not. The reward for working like that is more work. And so I had to figure out okay, how do I, how do I, how do I normalize this chaotic and reactive stuff by creating systems and processes so I can get it done in less time? That was one of the things I did. Um, how can I pick the one or two, what I refer to as ruthless priorities? Be ruthless about choosing them and ruthless about protecting your time to do them. Don't try to do 20 things. Get these two important things done and get them done well, and then pick the next two. And I found that that combination of just refusing to refusing to let my my time and energy get burned up on too much low-value stuff and being getting really smart about picking high value stuff allowed me to apply my limited energies to just hit more things out of the park than others were doing because they were mired down by all the busy, chaotic, repetitive work, and they were exhausting themselves working nights and weekends all the time. I just rejected that because I had no choice and it and it made me, it forced me to become more strategic.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Yes. Yes, definitely. Um we've had so many conversations on this podcast about burnout as well, and that it's just not good for anybody and when you're doing that as a leader. It's also not a good example to set for the rest of your team as well. Things like, you know, still responding to emails when you're on holiday and and all of those things, you just think, you know, I I always think you should just go off and enjoy your holiday. Don't even look in your inbox. But if your manager is doing that, that's kind of setting the tone for you should still be looking in your emails while you're on holiday. Right. It's not a good place to be.

Never Disqualify Yourself For Fear

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Um for our listeners who are feeling overlooked, um, underestimated, or held back by self-doubt, what's the one piece of advice that you would give them to help them move forward with confidence?

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Um, never disqualify yourself because you are scared. Yeah. I almost didn't show up for the biggest promotion, the biggest breakthrough in my career because I decided I wasn't ready. I had disqualified myself. And my mentors were like, Patty, why aren't why isn't your name on the list? Why haven't you put yourself forward for this? And I'm like, who, me? Like this, I are you kidding? It was I was 35, and this was to run a billion-dollar software organization with 3,000 people across the world. And I just thought that's my dream job someday, but there's no way I'm ready for that now. And then my mentor showed showed me the list of other people who had put their thrown their hat in the ring, and all of them were men, and half of them had no general management experience. I was at least a general manager of a smaller business. And I'm like, are you kidding me? If they're going for this job, I will, I will certainly go for this job. Um, and it was it was terrifying, but I um, you know, I I I just decided I'm gonna go for it. And if I don't get the job, I'm not gonna die. I still have a good general manager job and I'll I'll try again next time. Um, and then I got the job. Right. And that idea that I almost disqualified myself. Yeah. Right. So I don't know that I can I can promise your listeners a way to do it without being scared. Um but don't be the one to disqualify yourself. Let let other people be the one to disqualify you, and then you'll learn, and then you'll, and then you'll try again. And I just it's okay to be scared. It's just okay. Everybody's scared. And I just think it's it's so important that uh you're not the one who is is holding yourself back. With regard to confidence, for me, conf comp confidence uh has never been a before state. Confidence has always been an outcome of trying, sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing, always learning, and then the next time you do it, you're more confident. So don't disqualify yourself if you don't feel confident. Go forth, learn the thing, it'll turn out well or not. Either way, it's a successful test. And and you will get there if you keep, if you, if you continue to not disqualify yourself and you keep trying.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

Yeah, that's brilliant advice. Um so many of our uh members they do say to us, Oh, you know, I'm training and I'm doing this and uh and uh I'm um you know, I've done a lot, but I'm not applying because I don't tick all the boxes. They've just totally disqualified themselves of even applying for that next role. So we try and connect the dots between employers and our members to say, you might not tick all of the boxes, but have you considered this? You know, that company would just love to hear from you. They can train you up in the last few things, or I've never gone into a role where that actually ends up being my role. You know, there's always loads of other things anyway.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

So yeah, and I will tell you, generally speaking, men do not worry that they don't tick all the boxes. Only women worry about that because I have been the hiring executive, and I know the men and I know the women and I know their skill sets, and the women have far more skills and qualifications than the men. And the women start confessing, well, this requires these 10, and I only have these five, and you know, they just confess all the things that they don't have. And the man who has far fewer skills only says, sign me up, I'm your man. Yes. And so um, I just I encourage, I encourage women and everyone in general, do not worry if you don't feel like you tick all the boxes. Nobody does.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Final Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Um, Patty, I will I could keep talking to you on this topic, and but we are already out of time, I'm afraid. So thank you so much for taking time out today to speak with us. It's been an absolute pleasure um hearing your pearls of wisdom. So um thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Thank you, Kaylee. It's been a delight to talk with you about all of these things as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Thank you. And uh we're gonna include a link to your book as well. Um, so for all of our listeners, um, please do go and check that out. And um, for everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for joining us. And we hope to see you again next time.