The hidden dangers of AI – Why women are paying the price

A banned UK advert showing AI seemingly “undressing” a woman made headlines recently —but according to cybersecurity expert Charlotte Wilson, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

In this episode, we go beyond the outrage to unpack what this moment really signals about the direction of AI. Charlotte, Head of Enterprise at Check Point Software Technologies and a leading voice on ethical AI, explains how tools like deepfakes and so-called “nudification” apps are not only becoming more sophisticated, but increasingly normalised.

We explore why women are disproportionately targeted, what this reveals about bias in AI development, and how the same technologies are driving a surge in cybercrime—from blackmail to synthetic identity fraud. Charlotte also draws connections to wider concerns around unchecked AI systems and the erosion of trust in digital spaces.

This is not just about one controversial ad—it’s about how fast-moving technology is reshaping harm, accountability, and power in society. What needs to change? From stronger regulation to better awareness and more inclusive tech design, Charlotte lays out what must happen next—and why it matters to all of us.

SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.

Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.

Transcript

Why AI Harm Hits Women

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Katie Batesman, the Managing Director at She Can Code, and today we're discussing the hidden dangers of AI, why women are paying the price. A band UK advert showing AI Sumini Undressing, a woman made headlines recently, but this is just the tip of the iceberg. So I've got the wonderful Charlotte Wilson, Head of Enterprise at Checkpoint Software, and she's a leading voice on ethical AI. And I'm very lucky to have her here with me today to explain how tools like Deepfakes and so-called nudification apps are not only becoming more sophisticated, but increasingly normalized. So we're going to go beyond the outrage of this advert to unpack a little bit about this moment and what it really signals about the direction of AI. Welcome Charlotte. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on here. And it's lovely to join you as well. Thank you for having me. Thank you. We'd love to start with a bit about you, if that's okay, to set the tone for our um community and uh hear a little bit about you and your journey so far.

Charlotte’s Route Into Cybersecurity

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Absolutely. So um I'm the midway through my career, I want to say, but probably closer to um the more mature stages of my career. Um so I've been in the tech industry for about 28 years. Um I entered through doing an art degree. So obviously, the logic from that would be to go straight into technology in the city, selling to banks and trading houses. Um I was very lucky that someone gave me a shot. I was I had a steely determination, but somebody gave me a chance. But all the way from the beginning of my career, um I had to learn to live in the world as it had been set out for me. So I got very passionately involved in pretty much everything to do with diversity and inclusion before it was popular, before we had a term for it, before all of those things, largely just to survive in the world I lived. Um, I've enjoyed a very long career and pretty unblemished career, despite having several children, um, in technology or cybersecurity, uh pretty much anything to do with cybersecurity or managing data tended to be my workplace. Um, and currently sit running our enterprise business for Checkpoint. Checkpoint's a software company, but it's a cybersecurity company, very well known for firewalls. But actually, in the last two years, we've made several significant acquisitions that mean we're probably one of the leaders for AI and ethics in terms of what we can do with our technology. Um, so I came here not really having sold a firewall in my life, but very much more comfortable with leading with customer outcomes, looking at ethics, building um diverse cultures, and also what you can do within the threat hunting world.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Amazing. And um, so I I love to hear all of the different routes into technology because our community come from all walks of life to find their way into tech. Um and I always wonder when you were younger and you were studying art and and you it almost go back to your younger self now. When you look at that, do you see do you almost feel like saying to your younger self where you're gonna end up? Like, or were you really surprised as to when you did fall into tech and how much your career um evolved when you did get there, or you know, almost go back and say, Don't worry, this is where you're gonna end up, and it and you know it's it's gonna be great, but it's gonna be nothing like what you thought it was gonna be like.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

So, probably like a lot of teenagers, I had that teenage angst and had no idea who I wanted to be or what I wanted to be at all. Um, I've always seen life as a massive gift. So I've always been excited. I'm more on the optimistic side. Um, so I've always seen excitement and I've always been curious. I love problem solving and challenges. So I didn't really know when I was young what I wanted to be at all. I I had some ideas in my head that maybe I'd be a ballerina all the way through, so maybe I don't know, I'd be an artist. Or I really didn't know what I wanted to be. And um it was through a series of difficult events that made me realize I A needed money and B needed a decent job. So I didn't look for tech. And that wasn't where I was going. In fact, if you'd have asked me um at 16 what I wanted to do, then tech would have been the last thing I'd have said because I I was of the world where we had one computer in school and everyone could look at it and do some CDOS, you know, that was it, a line of code and then off you walked. So I wasn't really excited by technology when I was young. But um, through needing money and understanding I could talk to people about business and having that curiosity, I ended up realizing the best way to make money with all those other skills was probably in technology. And then I realized the and I unlocked this world of technology where I now just see, gosh, it can do amazing things, it can solve big life problems. So I now love what it can do, and now a massive, passionate technologist.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yes, I love that. And I and and we at Seacon Code wish that more people knew that. Um why we exist to to let more people know that that if you are considering um a career switch, that technology is a really good one um to consider. So it's always great to talk about, you know, to talk to the the different people that work in tech because you yourself not techie coda. That's what you think everybody in tech is.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Um miles away from that I was, you know. And that's what I thought it was. So I it was only that I knew that they had this saleswoman who everyone loved, and her life looked wonderful to me because I was young and she was, I don't know, she got to wear really nice clothes and go around the city of London and everyone loved her. And she seemed to all she really did was buy people drinks and carry a bag, as far as I sort of thought, and just look wonderful at doing it. And I thought, well, she doesn't know anything technical at all, and yet she's making this work. So whatever she's doing, I want some of that.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yes, yes, it's the visibility. Oh my gosh, the the role models um conversation that we have on here often that that is who you are drawn to. And unfortunately, we don't always see that in technology with females. Um, but when you do see a female that is doing that, or happens to be, you know, you saw that lady, and that was something that that um really inspired you. That's when you start thinking I could move in that direction. But it can be very difficult in technology to to even see yourself sometimes, or not not even you know, the job that you would like to get to, um sometimes recognizing yourself um in tech can be just as hard. Um we're gonna unpack uh quite a bit today about um the the hidden dangers of um AI for women. So um I want to talk about this absorption set

Nudification Apps And Digital Consent

SPEAKER_01 7:04

the scene. So um a recent UK story about an AI app uh appearing to digitally remove a woman's clothing sparked concern. Um but for those just hearing about this, what exactly happened and why does it matter?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

So you probably more famously, people saw what happened with Groconnex. Um, because I think that probably hit the headline. So that's probably a good place to start, which was um a capability for people to use images against somebody's consent to um undress a person. Um so you might have posted a picture of yourself on some platform or something, and somebody else being able to take that image and basically remove the clothing or put you in different clothing like a bikini or something along those lines. And the advertising, from what I can tell, advertised a capability to be able to do this as though people would take moderate sensible steps to only use that when they wanted. And you can sort of at a perverse way, you can sort of see where they were trying to go, which was maybe you could adjust an image from a marketing perspective. Maybe you could do your advertising campaign quicker by using tools. But the danger is it sort of gets into this world where women are already vulnerable. We haven't solved that problem. So putting tools into people's hands that make them more vulnerable and against their will, and then when it blurs into the children's sort of area. I'm not sure we have a society at the moment, sadly, that means that people will make a sensible choice to only use that for advertising. Um and so that's what it was about. And I think I think it was an era in which they realized very quickly that this is not a good idea for trust, and many, many people reacted and they quickly stepped away. But I liken it to the Grok thing because that happened earlier this year, and uh it caused a very big divide of opinion, which for me was a shock. I thought we would all be on the same page. I thought we'd all agreed common standards of ethics and morals. So it's quite a surprise to hear people maybe didn't share my opinion. I know that sounds unusual. We normally expect someone to disagree, but on certain things you expect more common thought.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yes, you do. Sometimes you do think as well, or the cynic in me would would think, oh, was that done on purpose? Or a conversation that we have so often on here is those types of things wouldn't happen if you had a diverse workforce who would be able to step in and say, that's a stupid idea. And here's why.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Yeah, I mean, we can all look back. There and there have been some shocking cases that I'm not going to mention because um uh I don't want to shame and name and shame those brands, but we can all name an advertising campaign or an event that points to women being put in positions, booth babe type of activities, that now we look at go, really? Like just could you take that back to the 80s because we've all moved on. So so it can be really inadvertent. And you can imagine sat in that room, whoever's decided it going, yeah, no, that's gonna work really well because you know, sex sells, so that'd be great. And yeah, if there'd maybe been a few more women in the room, maybe they'd have made a different choice.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Yes, exactly. And and something that we are a big, big advocate for, make sure that you've got uh um a diverse group of people to at least point that out. And even um the advertising campaigns that have not been sexualized in that way, and I I won't name the brand, but there was a brand who um I remember there was outrage when it it was about running through the city at night. And if there had been a few women on that team, they would have said, No one's doing that. Like I don't know any women that would go and run run through a city in the middle of night and feel safe doing that. Um so you know, just somebody speaking up sometimes and saying, I don't think this is gonna go down well.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

And it's it's it is very much a blind bias. It is, I work with so many brilliant men, and you know, you can really ostracize yourself in a room when you say, hang on a moment, from a woman's lens, maybe you can really ostracize yourself because people will get quite emotional about it and feel that that's being said to them, and it's not, but it is it is unseen, it's it is an unconscious thing. Um, people would have thought, yeah, let's empower this woman to be running at night. Maybe. But actually the reality is you and I know, and certainly what I've done since I could drive is carry my key through my fingers. And and I learned to drive when I'm 17, I'm 50 now, and I haven't not gone to my car on my own at night without my key through my fingers. Now, what I think I'm gonna do, that I have no idea. I mean, clearly I'm not really gonna take down an assailant, but the the fact that that still goes through my head, it's certainly not something that goes through my husband's head or my son's head or any of the men in my life. It isn't something they consider, but it's still something unfortunately we have to. And that's where I get passionate on the technology front because I think that's the world of reality for us as women. It's marginally got better in some areas. I mean, I can point to some brilliant things where we actually are better on careers. You can see that at a board level we've brought up um the amount of representation. So there are some major key steps forward, but when it comes down to certain areas of technology, we're just not there. And when it comes to AI, we're really not there. We're a long way behind.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Yes, yes, exactly. And especially um what is training, AI doesn't help as well if those views are still still going in. And and like you said, that it it sometimes it can just be done blindly when um I had that conversation with a friend who was so in the dark that I was trying to figure out a route home. And he was like, Why are you so worried about getting home? I'm like, I'm always worried about getting home. Like, where have you been? Like all of the women in this room are all standing there mentally figuring out how they're gonna get home. Like saying it.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

But I'm sure all of the men in the room are thinking about something else as as concerning in a different way, but they won't be looking. I I think we take these big risks with our livelihoods, every our lives every day. We we have to take those consequential things, which I'm not sure actually is what others have to think about. I'm not sure all men and women see that world equally. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Um what's happened there? Um thank you very much. I don't know, it does it sometimes. We will continue on. And uh um because I'm wanted to ask you, um tools like deepfakes and nudification apps, they're becoming more accessible.

Deepfakes Are Scaling Exponentially

SPEAKER_01 14:19

How quickly is this technology scaling and how worried should everyday people be?

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Um so I think I uh the scale is phenomenal, the growth is phenomenal. Um, and it's not even just down to certain nudification apps. I mean, you can largely get some of you can you can manipulate LLMs, you can manipulate um language models to do this. So um no one is particularly immune. Um it's it's where we play a really big part in protecting the prompts that go out and protecting the things that come back. That's that's exactly what we do. But but uh if you don't have those things in place, you are certainly not immune and no one's really immune. The growth is exponential. Unfortunately, around 15% of UK adults have already been exposed to deep harmful fakes. Um but it becomes disproportionate with the impact on women because it impacts us in a different way. So um seeing loads and loads of deep fakes, some you can identify, some you can't. I've seen them, you must have seen them, social platforms, class action lawsuit. Have you been impacted with this? You could be owned £2.50. Half of those aren't actually real. Um they're the sorts of deep fake videos. You've probably seen it with um uh political figures being, you know, shouting at each other, which didn't really happen. We've all been exposed to that. Um it's when it gets the exposure becomes about um a woman's right to exist as a person, and the rules become different, and you're breaking a law, but it doesn't see that way. So if you can't rip my clothes off me in the street, you shouldn't be able to do it digitally, is as simply as I put it. But so the growth is phenomenal. AI is absolutely here to stay, and the growth of that is phenomenal. The power and the capabilities that it offers us are amazing. But you know, if if 90 to 96% of deepfake videos online were non-consensual pornography, that's problematic. And that really, really impacts one gender more than another.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Yes, exactly. And you you mentioned it there about um being disproportionately uh impacting women. Um why is that the case and what does it reveal about AI systems uh and how they're being designed as well? That it, you know, like you said, that the prompts that are going out, but um just the way that they're being designed anyway is impacting women um more. You know, one, what does that say about design? And two, how do we how do we try and

Bias Baked Into Generative AI

SPEAKER_01 17:02

prevent that? Yeah, so it's when it's growing so fast. That's that's an incredible task.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

And I think that's that's the point. So this is a technology that we I mean, we've had machine learning for a very long time. That's not new. Um, we were playing, oh, certainly I was mucking around with that in 2016, 2017. So that's not new. When you go into a supermarket and you bit on a self-service checkout, a lot of those supermarkets actually have some ML capability or machine learning capability that says, yes, she did scan that lipstick, it is that one, she's gonna pay that much money. So that that technology has existed for a long time. What's been the more recent advancement is generative AI. So net new stuff coming from what you put in. I go and ask for something, and the machine will come back with something new that it's generated based on all of the internet or all of the data you've given it. So the so then then that's a case of what data have you given it? Uh if what you've given it is the internet, which is largely what the large language models like Chat GPT and Claude and others that we would use as as common people, um that data is already badly biased. So the internet was never a great place for women, it was never an inclusive place, it was never really a great place for good people, actually, in a lot of times. It it encouraged more people that wanted to harm society in some way or have an opinion that maybe wasn't a very popular opinion. So, for example, early days think BuzzFeed did this thing called BuzzFeed Barbie. And at the time of the Barbie movie, they thought it'd be wonderful for you to be able to make up your Barbie. And they BuzzFeed did this investigation on it where they said, give me a Barbie from everywhere in the world. Now, the that sounded all fine, but the German Barbie um was in an SS uniform because most of the internet information and imagery was German soldiers in the Second World War. Um, the Barbie from uh I think it's Kuwait had like a head, uh, I think they're called a Khalifa, um I might have got that wrong, but a head covering that is only for men. Um so that would have been wrong and inappropriate. Um and the Barbie from I think it was South Sudan came with a free AK-47 um rifle as an accessory. Oh my word. So that now Busfeed took that down because they felt it would be inflammatory. I actually think they should have left it up because I think it articulated the problem, which is the the the machine wasn't wrong, it represented the Barbie based on the information it had, and the most information it had was those things. Yeah, right. So that's partly is the data set people are using might already have bias in it. Um I know that myself. I can't get an image of me that isn't a man based on who I am. Uh if I give it my profile, it it will only ever make me a man. Um there's some connotations if you ask for give me a picture of I mean, really negative things like give me a picture of terrorists, I'm gonna get a brown person, I'm not gonna get a white person. Um so you can see that the the bias is all inherited and through, um, which is concerning. Also, if you ask for give me a picture of CEO, you'll typically get a man. If you ask for a nurse, you'll typically get a woman. So some of those are in those data sets already. Um and then when you look at who's building for us, we've still got a disproportionate amount of men developing. Now, it's not to say that they're not doing a brilliant job, because they are, but um, we don't have enough women developing. So, to your story of the marketing, there may not be women in that room designing, and and therefore it may be an unconscious bias that's getting proliferated because they may not see what might be the harm in that data set. Um, so that's the secondary thing. And then I suppose the final thing is the governance layer. So when we develop today, we develop um, or traditionally, we would say, let's design what we're going to develop as an application, then we do sort of like higher-level design, and then there's a whole load of steps to producing the end application. And all those steps we have points for governance and security and control. When you put that into more like an AI agentic model, all of that gets collapsed together and it's continuously doing it. So it's very much more difficult to put human infasite into it. It's not impossible, but it's very much harder. And then when people are implementing AI, they tend to be setting up these pilots for the use case and thinking, does that solve that problem? Let's see, great. So they might put a board of people together, and you might have someone from technology and someone from HR and somebody from you might have different people, but there's rarely somebody whose only sole purpose is the ethics. And that I think is an opportunity to get tighter.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yes, definitely. And and even things like um you just saying there when you ask it to even with the Barbie example, what a gay, a a great um way or a great experiment to figure out the type of information that we are consuming all the time and don't even realize that that is the type of picture that that we're building and don't even realize because that's the type of information we're consuming about um certain nationalities in certain countries. And it's almost a great exercise to to identify that to us. But you are right who who is then working on that it's almost like this is this is the outcome, isn't it terrible? So who's working then to try and change that and to be there to make sure that that that doesn't continue um into everything else that that we do from now on? Oh that's that's great that we identified that but who's in those jobs that is actually going to change that for future generations as well um and I think the two worlds have come a little bit disconnected.

DEI Rollbacks And Real-World Impact

SPEAKER_00 23:14

So in 2019 2020 we probably had more of an eye on diversity and inclusion. We used to call it DEI that became very fast unpopular after a series of things. So um in Trump's most recent administration when he first came into power he implemented um uh some executive orders around how much DEI policy he wanted to maintain in in federal government. So to sell to federal government you couldn't really have DEI policies. And that was to address a concern he had and that was fine. However that was a national decision with an international impact because it also impacted all the big American software companies and it also American and international software companies that wanted to sell to the government or other companies and what that meant was then they rolled back and those companies solved problems for us in the UK and other places. And then they turned more of an eye away from DEI and DEI became this dirty word that somehow started to talk about trans rights and other things. It kind of almost got hijacked down a different path before we'd solved all the problems that we had to solve. But then it became immensely unpopular and all of that got thrown away that we didn't solve any of the problems and it had actually made us drive towards but we'd all decided it was the wrong idea and we wouldn't do it anymore. And at the same time we drove this agenda around productivity performance innovation and the ability to be more competitive and and and innovate for um growth with these tool sets but we'd lost those very people that probably were the people that sat in it should we do this?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yes yes exactly um and it it's something that we saw um as well and something that we we always advocate for a diverse workforce and what that can bring to your company um and we did see that at the time um when that happened and and thankfully a lot of our partners at the time um they doubled down and they managed to find um ways to work with us out of Europe instead and um other ways like changing language and you know how do we there were some really forward thinking companies at the time who thought how do we continue to do what we need to be doing but uh find a way almost to reframe um the like you said the DE and I became like the dirty word but companies were starting to see all of the benefits of um having a diverse pipeline um and what that was doing for their companies. So yeah it was a very um worrying time. It was it was a concerning time because we were seeing really good progress in in companies um and especially as AI is taking off and technology is just um moving so fast uh it was yeah it's quite a concerning time. But thankfully a lot of companies um our partners certain they did uh double down on their efforts.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Um yeah and I think I I hope those other companies that win through out because um everything is cyclical. Everything in my lifetime has been I'm sure before my lifetime it was um we go through these stages of this is popular now that now it's not popular and then it comes back into popularity as we realise that actually having women on your board and women in your executive leadership did actually make me more profitable. I think that will start to come back around and we'll start to care about um inviting different people into work, um mixed abilities, mixed race I I I do think we'll get back to it. And I think those companies that stood that test of time and said no actually we're going to keep an effort to make our workforce represent society I think they will win throughout because I think we will get back to that. I I like I say I'm a keen technologist but I'm also conscious that I'm a human being as well and I think we all are and we all want to live in a society that feels like a good place for all of us our children our families to survive.

How Criminals Weaponize AI Faster

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Exactly exactly and um uh one thing I wanted to talk to you on you said we want to all live in a good commun uh a good society is true but unfortunately uh there's also um criminals that are exploiting what's happening as well and I wanted to touch upon that um a little bit uh in this conversation about AI because there is an overlap between tools and cybercrime um how are criminals exploiting this technology today and what kind of threats are emerging that people might not be aware of just yet so um we've seen the rise of things like litigation as a service which is and was a new one for me um we started to see that last year uh litigation as a service is is somebody being able to go through all of your data at speed using AI and finding all the places you could potentially be breaching or compromising a contract you're signed up to that you might have forgotten about um and then hold almost holding you to ransom that they'll put you in more problem if you don't just pay them for it.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Now that is exploiting AI for speed and scale. The the bit that we are seeing as well is that um more convincing attacks especially on the likes of you and I so if I send if you'll remember last year the retail hacks is quite a good example. Many many retailers were impacted not just the ones that hit the press um and the common thing there was they didn't really take the financial data they took your brand loyalty data. And so it's very easy to go oh don't worry about that it's only your loyalty data it'll be fine but then if you think about what that loyalty data is it's a huge amount of information so it's uh it's you it's home shop it's what you buy it's whether you buy children's things that's what so therefore if you have kids it's whether you've got a pet it's a there's a lot of information on you and there's a lot of information even just down to your address and your name and your date of birth and all of those good things. So now somebody's got a whole profile. Now for a human being to use that data to do something with it takes time. For an AI to do something with that really, really fast. And so if there was a breach and your data was taken, you might then get a text message to say we saw that you bought red pyjamas back in January and we're really sorry about what's happened and the inconvenience we've caused you. We've got other things that go with those red pyjamas here's some slippers and various other things you can get them half price because as an apology and click here. And someone might click there and it might take you to a fake website that's not real that's going to then scrape all your data and now suddenly you're the victim. And that is so much easier to do with AI. So that's that's the concern is that the scale of which somebody can exploit this to do harm and and effectively hack you becomes quicker. And also in the supply chain of hackers so you've got the primary hack the person against the company you've got the secondary hack people against the people then you've got the tertiary hack of I can make a class action lawsuit look real and you can click on those links and that's another thing. So in that supply chain of hackers you've got the first person making money the second person making so it's a profitable industry from that perspective. Yeah that's the concern is it it wasn't probably as easy to exploit before it's now just made it a business.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Yes and some of them are so convincing as well because like you said if they've got all that information on you you're we're almost not we're not familiar with those you see scams sometimes and you think it's just like a blanket email somebody sent out and it will catch a few people but you kind of look and think this has gone out to so many people but if it's got details in there about you only you and you're thinking how on earth did they get this is this really a scam um that one we're almost not prepared for that one yet how did you know exactly and um so you talked about uh obviously their concerns with trust and identity uh in an AI driven world and and we touched upon this a little bit as well um when uh you talked about the political videos of people screaming at each other that weren't real um are are we already at a tipping point where we can no longer believe what we see online um and that that is also with the scams it's almost like at what can you believe are are we at that tipping point where it's just like I don't know I I don't know how to to now determine what's real, what's not real, what I should click on, not click on.

The Trust Collapse Online

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Are we at that tipping point?

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Unfortunately I I believe we are which is probably not as hopeful as people want to hear you I I mean I still think there's places the um that have spribbed really hard to give authenticity to what they're saying. So I I think if you go to that company website and genuinely put it in for yourself you'll be able to find what you want and most people are protecting themselves in that regard. But I do think what an awful lot what we see on social media for example is really just not to be trusted. Yeah um and I also I worry because um the skills that we need are the skills that you have we need journalistic skills so we need to be able to look at something and say I'm not sure that's true. I'm going to go check that three other ways and we're not taught to do that.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Yes well actually um journalism itself um it is becoming an issue um as well because I have um uh quite a few ex-colleagues that I have noticed um are uh becoming uh being made redundant um because journalism is also at threat as well. And so and you are right those skills are so important for somebody to be able to go off and investigate whether things um are real, uh whether something is fake, the um information that we are consuming. But in terms of uh journalism it is frightening. I was thinking about it recently because somebody said to me about um the way that we create content nowadays and I could hear myself talking about previous roles that I had been in creating um content for companies and um working at agencies. I worked at a creative agency for some time as well and I could almost hear myself saying it and then I thought I would so be out of a job if I was still doing that now because AI could just do my job now. I I I worked at um creative agency once doing um advertising and tag lines. Well you could just ask Chat GBT for that now. So I would so be out of a job. So it is um quite worrying um when you uh when you actually uh look at what types of jobs um and as we were discussing this morning um uh earlier uh with with yourself about um jobs that might be at threat um as well and how much that is changing because of AI um is quite concerning um definitely I think the one the one hope I have on jobs and maybe I'm I I did say I'm an optimist but if you look at the job I have now and go back a hundred years it wasn't there it didn't exist.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

And possibly a lot of people's jobs, especially on your podcast that the the jobs in technology didn't always exist. Like computers when I was a child they were relatively new I I'm not not talking touring style computing I'm talking general access computing it was new when I was young. So a lot of the jobs that we would have recognised throughout the 2000s certainly didn't exist when I was a child and the job I do I'm doing now didn't exist for other people and um if I look forward I think there are jobs. I think they're different I think the workforce structure probably needs to change so that we look at how we create jobs that make that matter. And I think there's some jobs that we can't even dream of yet because we haven't got our heads around it. I think the biggest thing that we can do as companies is to um allow people to show where the gaps are and where they think they can add value. And I think Google did a very good job of that many years ago when they had 20% of the working week could be spent on innovation. And I think that is probably where we need to get to is allowing that innovation. The bit I worry more for is how we bring younger people into work, support them well, because a lot of the jobs that you cut your teeth in when you're first in a career, they're the things that are getting automated through AI. So I think that that's the more the thing that we have to pay our attention to is how do we make it to society and actually we innovate and move forward and create more jobs as opposed to we use this as a way to look at the bottom line more closely and get productivity gains, which means less jobs. That's that's the biggest area I think.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Yes, definitely and especially with young people and you say they're cutting your teeth they they are the jobs that um you look back and you think oh my gosh I used to do the most mundane things when I started in my career but you you have to do those even to get used to being in a workplace that's a baptism of fire. When you come from university or school and you go into work you need um those jobs to at least adjust into the world of work um so that is true that it's a helping hand for those young people coming in um definitely and you mentioned there about what tech companies um can do and what about you know tech companies policymakers um and society um to to help all of this from becoming the norm you know we don't want um people just thinking that AI driven content that that is what we're consuming um is is real you know what what can companies uh do and policymakers do to to try and help um prevent that so I have to say on this front I was really pleased with what Liz uh Liz Kendall and Emily Darlington Emily Darlington's my MP so that's quite nice.

Practical Fixes And Career Power Moves

SPEAKER_00 38:08

I was really pleased with the robust position that they took on the GW X scandal. I genuinely think that they didn't shy away from the very difficult thing that needed to be done which was they knew full well they couldn't fully block it because we could you could always find a way through. But they found a way to try and put legislation in place and and I was really proud of us for that. I was really proud that we didn't just say oh no it's okay it's freedom of speech. So I I do think we have some people that are very keen in different parties in in government that that do understand that there needs to be a safe way to govern and regulate. And looking at criminal behaviour is criminal behaviour even if it's behind a keyboard, I I do think they are looking at those rules. I think from a how we deploy technology more sensitively and carefully, I do think it's a case of thinking as companies about who do we have in the room that's developing and then who do we have in the room that's really only looking at it from a does this impact my brand lens from an ethical standpoint. But until we do that, we won't make that better. The bit I don't really understand is I think there's more practical things we can do. So if we know we don't have enough women developers developing AI platforms and we know that there's probably a skills gap there, but there's not just access there's a skills gap and there's all these courses you can go on that could teach you some of those skills but we also have an 8% gender pay gap why is it the same price for women than men to do those courses? Yes. That that for me it I've never really understood if you want to change the dynamic and you know one person is paid 8% less than another person, why don't you give the person that is paid 8% less generally across the piece more of a discount of 8%? I mean then you make the point of entry fair.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Yes, exactly and and and it it would make sense but it doesn't always happen the same with the the barriers that happen for women in tech um and and and like that training coming in but also a lot of our community members that we speak to when we see them exposed, they say things like I did train and I am ready to to move um into tech or into a a different role and but I'm not applying is the other thing because the job applications sometimes are very in-depth I don't tick all the boxes so I'm not applying so we found I really I really hope women move away from that I know I know because actually really no one's coming to help you.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Yeah I know that sounds pessimistic but I the employers want you to push yourself out of your comfort zone and I get it it's hard and do you know what I'm as I'm as bad at it as everybody else but that's where your network can help you. I have fantastic women in my network I have fantastic men in my network but I have women in my network that are 10 years older than me. And what I learned from those women is all of that bravery that I needed when I was much younger comes when you later on. So for me it it happened I think in my 40s I got a bravery that I didn't have in my 30s. When you get to your 50s you have a bravery you didn't have before and when in your 60s you don't care in the same way. You'll kind of know who you are much more. I think the more we can network with people slightly older than us, listen to what they have to say use some of that and push ourselves forward the more we're going to get on. I also think it's a you can do it problem. So what I mean by that is um we can sit there and say education doesn't work we can sit there and say they don't really learn it in this aspect or you can just get on in and you can get on in and go, okay, education doesn't massively work for these groups of people and and yet I am one of those people. So I'm going to go and volunteer some of my time. And that is something practical you can do and you will be somebody else's role model and you will be somebody else's guide and you could become someone's coach to help other people get there faster. Because frankly until you're easier doing jobs and you just don't care about pleasing people so much anymore, I don't think we ever get through that self-apraisal process ourselves through so harshly. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

I I couldn't agree more I and the di definitely with the different phases of life we get asked a lot the question we always get asked is is it too late? Because it's almost like a community members hit a certain time in their life and they think I'm going to change careers because they suddenly get that bravery to try something new. And a lot of our members do ask that and we always say no it is never too late but then it's building your brand and your story and how you can transition into tech and what that looks like and going for those roles and we try and connect the dots with our members and our partners because our partners say to us they don't have to tick all the boxes. Do they know that? Like we're just looking for the potential so we try and say hey have you seen this lady over here because she's not applying but she ticks 75% of your boxes that you should know about her because yeah that that can be very frustrating but um it it I I couldn't agree more with um the different uh phases in life and and how you feel and um almost wish you had that bravery back in your twenties.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Oh god the things I wish I uh that I do now and have learnt to do now that I didn't do when I was young, the things I wish. Now when somebody says to me um what would you advise to a woman like me and I often get that from younger people um and before I used to say oh I don't know just be a bit braver. Now now Now I don't. Now I've got some practical things. So, first of all, get your money in order. Work out, you know, work out. Are you going to have children? How many children are you thinking of having? Because each one of those you're going to have to fund in some way or work out a way for. Um, and also each one of those, frankly, will make your career go a bit slower during those times. And that's okay. Whether you choose to stay at home or not stay at home, irrelevant. It's just the fact that you will physically go and give birth. So, so that that, like literally work that out. Work out your money, work out where is your money, how do you invest it wisely so it makes the most amount of money for you. And go and take that early advice. Um, have a view of what age you want to retire and how you're going to afford it and what that you want that to look like. It gives you a really good blueprint for what kind of jobs you need to go and do. I did none of those things when I was younger. I wish I'd have done them then. I'd do them now, but I wish I'd have done that 10 years before. I might have made different choices. And also, once you get a handle on your money, you can then take more of an opportunity and a risk. You can take more of a chance that maybe this won't work out, but at least I know I've got an overhead of X amount of time if it doesn't. And the other thing I would practically advise women do in particular is actually talk to each other about salary bandings. We're very polite, we don't tend to do it either with each other or with our male colleagues. But actually, I can tell you that there have been times in my career where I've been happily paid less than all the men I work with, not known it, and I never asked. And because I was helpful, somebody would say, Charlotte, can you take on this responsibility? Or do you mind going on this board or do you mind doing this other thing? And I just did it because I thought, I, oh gosh, I've been selected or chosen. But what I didn't realise was actually a lot of my male counterparts used to go, I'm happy to do that. What is the extra remuneration for that role? Ah. I never even asked it, never thought to ask it. And I really wish I'd have known that when I was younger.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Yeah, because when you're younger, you're conditioned to think, oh, what a great opportunity for me. I I'd almost been told that several times when I was young, getting into the workplace where it was, this is going to be a great opportunity for you. That's why you should move jobs on the same salary. And then you're also conditioned to think that throughout your entire career and miss the fact that you just took on all of that brilliant experience, then you should be paid a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

And it might be a good opportunity, but then if it's an opportunity to stretch, well, how long is that stretch for? Because it can't be all for all time, because that's just a new job. If it's a stretch assignment for six months, then yes, there's an exchange that I might get some value from it. But like I say, if it's six months but becomes six years and you're actually just doing two jobs, yeah, you've really penalised yourself. Yeah. And that's where we fall into that habit of then um the more senior jobs women tend to shy away from a little bit because they realise they've actually done a lot more of it. But it's also frankly where companies I I worrying trend I am seeing is companies expecting you to have a lot more of the capabilities. And I think that's beholden for somebody to take more chances. I I the best employees I've ever hired are the ones that didn't have it all, but the passion and fire and hunger in them to go and want to be, make something important of themselves in their own mind, they're the ones that always won. And I would hire them in a heartbeat anytime.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Yes, I couldn't agree more. And um that is a lovely place to end this on um because I I could keep talking to you on this topic and do a whole other episode um on what we've been talking about. But um, it's been an absolute pleasure, Charlotte. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us on spilling the tea. Um, I've really, really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

And to everybody listening, as always, thank you for joining us, and we hope to see you again next time.