Rewriting Routes Into Tech

In this episode, we sit down with Claudia Cohen, Director of La Fosse Academy and a recognised voice in the Women in Tech 100, to explore how the journey into tech is being redefined. As a leader, advocate, and mother of two, Claudia is on a mission to break down barriers and create meaningful pathways for women and underrepresented talent to thrive in the industry.

We dive into her work championing inclusive hiring, the power of mentorship, and why representation truly matters. Claudia also shares insights into La Fosse Academy—an initiative designed to fast-track careers in tech for those without traditional access, offering a free and transformative route into the industry.

Whether you're considering a career switch, passionate about diversity in tech, or curious about how the industry is evolving, this conversation is all about rewriting the rules—and the routes—into tech.

SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.

Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.

Transcript

Welcome And The Big Theme

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Katie Batesman, the Managing Director of Community and Partnerships at SheCan Code, and today we're discussing rewriting roots into tech. I've got the wonderful Claudia Cohen, Director of LaFosse Academy, with me today to explore how the journey into tech is being redefined. And we're going to dive into her own work, Championing Inclusive Hiring, The Power of Mentorship and Why Representation Truly Matters. Welcome Claudia. Thank you so much for joining us today on Spilling the Tea. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Brilliant. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Thank you. Well, we'd love to start with a little bit about you, if that's okay, to set the scene for our listeners.

Claudia’s Unexpected Tech Path

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Yeah, absolutely. So I uh never knew that I wanted to get into the tech industry. It wasn't something that I ever grew up thinking that I wanted to do. To be honest, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I studied languages at university and then did a test online that said I'd be good at sales. So I decided to apply for lots of different jobs and got into the industry kind of indirectly through that route. And so I've been with LaFosse for 13 years and joined primarily when LaFosse was a recruitment business. And my role was very much about working with customers to understand what they were looking for, when they were thinking about building their teams. And actually, we saw a big gap in the market for creating opportunities for people who are starting out their career in tech. And so six years ago, um, I launched the LaFosse Academy, uh, which was all about creating opportunities for people who wouldn't have maybe had those opportunities otherwise. And it's something that I'm personally really passionate about as well, because I've seen the impact both from a customer perspective in terms of them not necessarily having roots to have access to diverse, brilliant talent coming through. And I've also seen the other side where I see amazing people who maybe haven't had the opportunities. Um, and if you just give them the opportunities, how incredible they can be in terms of rewriting the future of the tech industry.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Yes, I love that. So one thing on here, I never know what people are going to say. A lot of people on here though do tend to say, I didn't know I was going to end up in the tech industry. It wasn't planned. And we hear that so often, and you must hear that so often in your job as well, um, that people just kind of fall into tech and then they realize actually it was a happy accident and it was the best thing that ever happened to them. Um so interesting that you took a test and that you were um destined for sales. I was told I once I was destined to be a florist when I when I took that test. It's bizarre when you take those at school.

Role Models And What Kids See

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Um was there anything um any any kind of role models when you were younger where you or or lack of role models at least? If you were that one of those people which there was there's so many people that are like, I don't know what I want to do. Did you feel that there was kind of a lack of role models around you to kind of direct you in like what to do? Like, you know, even at university, we get told a lot of students get there and then they go, I still didn't know, even when I graduated, because there was no one around to kind of inspire me in a certain direction.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yeah, I I definitely agree with that. I think the education system is not necessarily set up for vocational um aspects. It's it's much more about giving people a rounded education, but it doesn't necessarily set them up for the real world of work. And I see it as well, I'm a mother, I've got two young girls, and already at such a young age, like my eldest is six, and she already is starting to think about what roles she wants to do. And you know, they ask, what do you want to be when you grow up? And it's always the traditional roles that you hear people talk about, right? It's I want to be a doctor, I want to be a builder, right? The things that they see day to day, but it's very rare that you get people say, I want to work in the tech industry. And people even knowing that these roles exist, I think that's actually a big part of the problem. Um, so it's it's as much about people having access, yes, but also having a view of what actually exists out there and understanding that there is more than just what you might see going through life.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, definitely. And and unless you have somebody that is uh around you that's doing it, or um, you know, to choose that subject at university, um, or I I had a lady on here the other day, she said, actually, my family um ran a training company in tech. I was like, Well, that was pretty lucky. So she, you know, she was always around that and she kind of knew what she wanted to go into. But that is very, very rare that you hear that type of thing. But even nowadays, you would think that more children would be more aware of the types of roles um that are available, uh, but it's still not quite there. So um unfortunately we do still hear the people that say fell into tech. Um as long as people keep falling into tech, it's fine. Um, and there is lots of work, obviously, to get people um to come into the industry and choose a career there, um, uh, which a lot is is um being done by yourself as well.

Access Barriers And Career Changers

SPEAKER_00 5:10

So um, but you have been recognized um in the Women in Tech 100. Um and uh what I wanted to know was what first inspired your passion for championing women and underrepresented groups into tech?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah, of course. I think it comes back to that point that we talked about just there, which is um access. So um I see so many people who are really passionate about tech, but haven't been able to actually turn that into a career. And it's not actually because they lack ability, but it's because of the barriers that people don't actually even think about that exist within the tech industry. Things like you need a certain degree to get into the tech space, right? Uh, you need to have the right connections, you know, exactly as you said, the person that you spoke to whose parent ran a tech training company has connections in the industry, that helps. And then the third piece is exactly as we just said there, you know, knowing that tech is even an option for people, right? Um and so what we see a lot of is that people get interested and realize that they're interested in a career in tech later on in their career, and they're already down a different path. So then it becomes really difficult to make that shift. And actually, one of the big pieces on our program is that 50% of our people are career changers. Um I think that's really important because it shows that it's never too late to actually make that change if you're passionate about it, and that there are routes to turn that passion into a career, even if you haven't necessarily started off thinking that that's where you wanted to end up. Um, so yeah, I think it's about really removing those barriers. That's where the passion stem from for me, and and being able to help people realise their passion every day.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

That's so interesting because that's such a big number of people that are switching careers. And we do get a loads of career switches in our community, and it's something as well that employers need to recognise that exactly what you just said, that not everybody is taking that traditional route. You're not always going to be finding those computer science um graduates that are coming through the system, and also those that are coming through, they're yet to experience you know, baptism of fire coming into the workplace anyway, and they don't have experience. Whereas a career switcher might have been in work 10, 15 years already, they have all of that wonderful experience that comes with just being in work and the politics of work and working on a team and leadership, but they're going to transition into learning tech. And sometimes I I think it's just employers being more open as well to thinking, actually, she has so many good soft skills and skills that transition into tech. Now she's trained, and you know, she might not have um all of the training that we're looking for, but we could do that. Sometimes I think it's just employers agreeing to make that little extra investment in that person because they would get so much more out of that person. She would be so much more loyal as well and stay at that company compared to perhaps the graduate that might hop around a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Yeah, exactly. And that that's the the biggest piece that we see is that um we call it diversity of thought, but really that's that's what it is that career changes bring. You know, they've worked in that real life environment, they understand exactly as you say, how to deal with stakeholders, the politics of work. Those are normally the challenges that you actually get with people who are early careers or starting in an industry. It's often just we always call it um attitude as important as aptitude. And that's mostly if you speak to customers and employers, the biggest challenges they have with early careers is not the technical skills because you can learn that, it's actually the attitude and the things that you gain from having a wealth of experience in the industry. So we see a lot of our career changers as being really, really successful in terms of their their careers, even though they didn't have a traditional route to get into the tech space to start with.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yes, yeah, you must do those people as well. They to decide to want to do that halfway through a career is that's not for the faint-hearted. So that is somebody that is committed and really, you know, going and it just some of those boot camps as well and those training, they can be expensive and time consuming. It depends what you're doing and depends what is suited for you. But for somebody to make a decision to want to do that, they must be very committed to the cause and thinking, this is it, I'm gonna go into tech and make a success of that.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Absolutely. Yeah, and again, that's a barrier, right? If you can't afford to do a program like that, then you know that option becomes not available to you again. So our course is free for the students, and we were very intentional about that so that we could remove all of those barriers that exist. We don't look at people's background, we don't look at their CV, you know, anyone can apply, and everyone is put through the same process, and we select the best people based on their merit and and their ability versus ability to pay, for example.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

I love that, yes, because it is some of those um courses, you um they are very expensive, and it's such a um it's such a big decision. If you're you know already in work and you and you you might have a mortgage at that point, you might have a family and children, and you're kind of thinking, I don't know how I'm gonna do this. Like I'd love to do something new. Um how do I fit this in? So as long as um, like you said, you've got a good attitude and you want to do that, um, I love that that it's open to everybody to give that a go.

What Traditional Pathways Get Wrong

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Um the idea of rewriting routes into tech um is a powerful one. But what do you think is broken about traditional pathways into the industry?

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Um great question. I think if you think about the traditional routes into tech, they are very credential-based versus capability-based. Um, and also what we'll see a lot is that organizations will say, you know, we want to invest in junior talent. We want people at the early stages of their career. But then when you look at the job description, they say we need two years of experience. So then it becomes impossible for people to get the first two years of experience because how do you get that first in if everyone is looking for a junior with two years of experience, right? So when we think about um how do we kind of change that traditional path, we filter for people who um who have potential versus who have done the right path, right? So um what we're seeing is that with AI as well, things are evolving and shifting quite significantly. A lot of companies are investing a lot less in junior talent because they think that parts of that role can be automated. So it becomes even more challenging to get that first route into tech if you haven't necessarily got the background, the experience, etc. Um, and so I think that's why having different and structured pathways is really important because it's not just about looking at credentials, what degrees someone's done, uh, what prior experience they have, but it's also about having roots to be able to assess their potential and their capability. Um, because it comes back down to that if they've got the attitude and the potential, they can learn the skills. Um and tech is so broad as well. This is the other thing, right? So people think, I want to get into tech, I want to be a software engineer. And we see that all the time. And especially now with data in AI, people are maybe saying, you know, I want to get into you know AI automation engineering or something. But it's very, they think tech equals developer, but actually there are so many broad roles across the tech industry. Um, so it's about educating people as well that you don't have to be the best coder to get a role in tech. There's a variety of different routes and pathways that you can be in the tech industry without necessarily being the most technical person in the room.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yes, uh yes, um I can agree more on what you just said. You don't have to be the most technical person to be in tech. Um and and you must see quite a few people come through who who have kind of um heard that misconception as well about about being in tech um and what people think their their job is actually going to be like. Um we hear quite of a few community members um say something similar. I agree that some companies, um, especially with the what what they're looking for, it does put a lot of people off. Um we get told by community members all the time that they see roles, they're applying, um, they're training, but they're not always applying. So there are lots of things that put off women as well, thinking, oh, I don't pick all the boxes, especially if you see, you know, one to two years experience. But when we talk to our um partners, they say sometimes we just love to hear, you know, ladies that have potential. And I think sometimes your job applications can be putting people off. They're not thinking, oh, I just I'll just go for it. You know, they've read something and thought I'm just not going to apply in the first place. Um I love the fact that you uh said that you look for potential because um I've always thought this with CVs. Uh we talk to a lot of recruiters, obviously, um, in in our um field of work, and they always say about using your CV as a way to tell your story rather than just listing your job roles, because it's exactly that. If you're listing, you know, just a set of skills, that's great. You might be found, or you might be found on LinkedIn easily, but you haven't actually said how you use those skills or how you delivered a project, or like, and then people can't see the potential in you that they're looking for something that you might not even have yet, but they don't know how you used those skills because you didn't actually talk about your own story and how you delivered a project. Um, so I actually in your um application program uh um process, do you do you ask for things like that? Kind of how how do you pick out somebody's potential?

Hiring For Potential Without CVs

SPEAKER_00 15:27

I take it it's not just a standard show us your CV.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Not at all. And we don't even use CVs, we don't look at a CV at all. So um as we we were very intentional about that as well, because our view is that if we are really looking for potential, it doesn't matter what background someone's come from. Um and so we put everyone through the same application process that that first they have to write an application, they then have to do a psychometric um assessment, followed by uh a technical um assessment, followed by an open day where there's a group exercise that they do to see how they interact with others, and then uh a one-on-one interview. Um, so it's a very rigorous process to get into our cause, but not once is it based on what they've done previously, it's all based on how do they problem solve, how do they work with people, how resilient are they, how do they take on feedback, you know, all the core capabilities that we know are important for someone to thrive in a role in tech, those are the things that we're assessing for, versus what degree did they do, what background did they come from, what connections do they have, etc. Um, and actually a lot of what we do is educate customers as well, that you don't need to look at a C V, right? Um so often, exactly as you say, when a customer is looking to hire, they're used to working with recruitment companies and seeing a CV and then making a decision on who they want to meet with based on the CV. Our approach is that we spend time with our customers getting to know what are the core capabilities you're looking for, what do these people need to do? And then because we're training people throughout our programme, we get to know where their strengths are, what their capabilities are, and then we will match those people with the customers based on what they're looking for. And we we don't share a CV with the customer. We have a profile that says, This is why we think this person is great for the opportunity that that they're going to be doing within your organization. Um, but we don't share a CV very intentionally, and we say, come in, do a group session, meet with the people, because that's how you get to see the potential. It doesn't matter what background they've come from. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Oh, I love that, especially seeing them meeting them and seeing them in action um can make such a difference. I I feel like um so we run a hackathon um every International Women's Day, and getting to see our community members in action is so different than seeing, like you said, listed on a CV would be so different as to um how they come out of themselves and how they work as a team. And um, we literally throw them into teams with complete strangers and um just give them a theme and feed them all day and um make sure uh that they're uh moving along in their projects. But it's always such a surprise to us as to what they come up with and um challenges that they've overcome and you you don't get all of that from the CV. You're so right. It is um something from just putting people in a um challenging environment, at least, is to see how they respond to each other as well is a good point. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

And that's always the hardest bit, isn't it? When you see it's not just about their technical skills, actually in a work environment, they're gonna be working with stakeholders, they're gonna be working as part of a team. They need to have the behaviours as well as the skills to be able to thrive. And actually that's where we see a lot of people fall down, people that are really strong technically, but they don't pass our course because actually they don't work well as a team or they don't turn up for work on time, or you know, the things you can't test in an interview, but you do actually see when you're running a training program and they're having to interact with other people in the same way that they would in a real life working environment. Yeah, those are the things that are as important, if not more important, actually, when you're starting your career.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Yes, uh, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And it yeah, it is a something as well as the baptism of fire of when you go to work, um, and having people especially already into their careers that know all of that. Like they've done all of that, now they're just, you know, excited to learn something new. Um definitely would make a difference there.

Inside LaFosse Academy And AI Upskilling

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Um so on that note then, can you tell me all about LaFosse Academy um and how it creates opportunities for people who might not otherwise see tech as accessible to them? You said that you launched it uh six years ago, is that correct? What what happened there? What happened there and how is it grown?

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yeah, of course. So I think as I said, we we launched out of our recruitment business, and really it was in in response to what we were hearing from our customers in terms of they were looking for routes to build more diverse tech teams, and also you know, we wanted to create an opportunity which wasn't just around moving the existing talent around the market, but create opportunities to create more talent for the industry, right? Um, so really Academy was born and and at its core it's all about potential. So we take people from diverse backgrounds that traditionally wouldn't have had access to tech careers, whether they're career changes or really smart graduates or you know, people that didn't even have degrees, we train them up in the relevant tech skills and then we place them into real life roles in a real life environment and support them through a structured program. Um, and I guess a big part of what we do and why it's important is that it's free. So that removes a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people that might not have the means to pay for professional courses. Um, but also I think one of the key points is we touched on it before, is that um the academy is built around creating real-world capability. So at university, you might study theory if you study computer science, but it doesn't necessarily prepare you for what you need to do in the real world. So our training is very much about creating environments that allow people to see what a real life tech environment is like. Um, and then increasingly, more recently as well, a lot of our program is around preparing people to think about how their roles evolve with AI as well. Um, and that's not just the people that are entering the tech space. We also can see a big shift in people who have been working in the tech space for years and years and years. And typically we're seeing three types of behavior at the moment. So we've got people who are kind of leaning in and experimenting with AI, you've got people that are kind of letting it happen around them, and then you've got people who are actively avoiding it. And actually, what we're seeing is that the reality is that roles are changing. If people don't adapt, they will get probably left behind. So there's two routes now to the academy. So that the first part is about bringing in new talent and training them in the relevant skills. But also we're doing a lot of work in upskilling existing talent as well within organizations. And we've just been approved as an apprenticeship provider. So we can run those upskilling programs funded through the skills levy as well to make sure that we're not just creating pathways for new talent to enter the industry, but actually we're future-proofing people who've been in the industry for a long time and getting them ready for what's happening next as well. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

I love that. I do you also get um have you seen a shift, I suppose, as well in um less students wanting to go to university and actually coming your way instead and thinking, actually I just I just might as well um take uh an academy like this and and going really early instead of you know, university is suddenly very expensive, and and again, you might not actually figure out what you even want to do at university. But have you seen kind of an uptick in in that?

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah, we we have actually, and and interestingly, we're we have a cohort in training at the moment, and there's this brilliant lady um who's come straight out of school. She didn't go to university, but it was an active choice that she said, you know what, I want to get my foot in the door, I really want to start my career. And I think that's amazing. It's brilliant. You know, she'll have a head start on some of her peers who have decided to take the university route. I do think that there is a lot that you gain from, you know, if you choose the university route through having structured learning programs and interacting with peers and getting the independence and life experience that you get. Um, but I think in terms of getting a head start in the industry, like deciding to go straight into it, and programs like this are really geared to prepare people for the real world. Um so, yeah, absolutely. Like I think there's different routes that people can take. Um I think as well people hear the word apprenticeship and they think it's people at the early stages of their career, but what we're also seeing is that you can utilize the levy to upskill people who might have been in their career for years and years and years, you know, leaders. We're upskilling team leads, um, you know, executives of organisations to think about how does AI impact their day-to-day role, as well as people in the first stages of their careers and first in first role into tech. So um it is really a case of how are we creating a workforce which is prepared for the future of skills, especially now with this rapidly changing AI world that we're living in as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Yeah, and people are um they are suddenly thinking, is is you know my job going to be needed? Or um, you know, and and I still I still do think a lot of those jobs are very needed and we're always going to need a human. Um, but there will be less of those jobs around. So you're right, people finding a way to change what they're doing at least and to evolve um is definitely needed. So, yeah, doing that um mid-career and thinking of an apprenticeship is um is a really wise choice at the minute, especially in um AI.

Confidence And Sponsorship At Work

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Um from your experience, what are the biggest barriers women still face when entering or progressing in tech? And how can organizations better address them?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Um I think confidence is definitely a big one, um, and visibility as well. So I think a lot of women have the capability, but they don't necessarily have access to the same opportunities, the same networks, role models, as we said before. And it starts really early. So, I mean, you'll know this, I'm sure, from the community, but only 19% of the people that study computer science are female, right? So if that's the main route into tech or the most traditional route into tech, then already the talent pool is very limited or skewed. Um and I see it again, like with my with my kids, right? Um, thinking about what are the roles that they could be open to and thinking about it early. So I think really it's about representation, role models, and also educating and showing people what's possible as early as possible. Um, and then when it's when you're in the workplace, I think there's a you know, people talk about mentorship a lot, but actually it's about sponsorship. Um, because mentorship gives people advice, but sponsorship is what creates opportunity. Um so I think that's really the key element.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Yes, I I I love the topic of sponsorship. Um, I have had so many good just brilliant sponsors who have all been men and male sponsors in the workplace, they are the ones who I agree they open doors, they um talk about you in a positive light when you are not in the room. They are the people that push you forward for the next opportunity and say all the right things when you're not around. Um, and it is so important because you're right, you can learn a lot from mentorship, but having that cheerleader for you when you're not there to push you forward in your career um really does open doors to women to get them through to um leadership at least because so many companies say, you know, the women we they're not in leadership roles, how do we get them into leadership roles? And and that really is the key to doing that, to um encouraging them to uh not just go through the ranks but stay as well and um for companies to uh retain their women in tech as well.

Mentorship Stories That Change Careers

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Um we touched upon mentorship a little bit there um and uh representation, and they're themes that you're very passionate about. You mentioned that you have daughters as well. Um, can you share an example of how these have made a real difference in someone's career journey? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

I mean, we have so many examples of people who have gained confidence through mentorship, through the program, having the structured support. I mean, one example um is uh a lady that we had in the program who had come from a non-traditional tech background. Um, she was she'd studied law uh previously, and she'd uh again came into our course thinking that she wanted to go into software engineering, and then her eyes were opened to the world of business analysis and project management, and then secured a role with a large media business as a business analyst. Um, she uh, through getting involved in all of the networks and mentoring, and also we partnered her with a mentor from our program, it really helped her confidence, and as a result of that, she started bringing together some of the wider groups uh within the organization, she started winning awards, she started to really come out of her shell. And from someone that actually started off with a big question mark about herself, you know, am I right for the tech industry? To now, she's you know, four years into her placement um with that organization. She's been promoted twice already, and she's been earmarked, yeah, as someone who's like, you know, a future superstar of the organisation. And that is quite amazing, really. And I think that's all down to having you know the confidence that you get from having a mentor. Um we've also seen it, so um LaFosse uh have a women in tech community called Unbound, and part of Unbound, we've built a mentor program which um which looks at what people are looking to gain from mentorship and give from mentorship, and then we partner people together. And there was um at the most recent event I was at, there was a story that came from one of the people I was talking to who'd been um one of her team had been on the mentor programme, and she had been in a mentoring session with her mentor, and they talked about a concept that really clicked with her, and she was so excited and enthusiastic about that concept that she said, Can I bring it back to the team and can I take it to the wider organization? So in that moment, there were two things. Firstly, the confidence piece, right? She felt that she was confident enough from learning something to then being able to lead a conversation within the team about it. And then the second piece was it actually had a really big ripple effect. So the wider team then started saying, Oh, I want a mentor. And it wasn't just the females, it was the males as well that were like, How come she gets a mentor? And she gets all of this extra learning. I want that too. So I think that's the power of it as well, is that if you give people access, support, the right environment, you unlock that confidence and potential that maybe wouldn't have surfaced otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Yes. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, and the power of network that when that gets around, other people want to get involved. Um we we have lots of men say to us, I'd love to get involved, where do I get started? And we always say mentoring, because they seem to think, you know, if you see women in tech on the agenda at a conference, that's all the women disappearing into a little room on their own and all talking amongst themselves. And actually it's not. There's lots of male allies in there that want to get involved and want to be part of that conversation and just don't know where to start. Um, but yeah, that uh that confidence piece, uh we hear that constantly, and and finding, I mean, finding um as well, uh like your academy, it's opportunities that are open to all to be able to dip your toe in and not have to worry about, you know, um it's financially, for instance, and and and then realizing maybe that wasn't for me. Like that's okay as well. If you do try something and you think, well, that wasn't for me, that's okay, I'll try something else. But I love that she went on and um found like project management and um uh other options as well, because uh a lot of our ladies we hear that, they go, I didn't know I'd actually pretty much been a project manager my entire career. I just didn't know that they those were the skills that I was doing. I just needed somebody to guide me into that role. And then actually I realized that that was what I was doing anyway. I just needed somebody to tell me that and show me next steps. Um, but like you said, it's sometimes the representation and being able to see people in their roles and what they're doing is so important to actually see it in real life. Um, I don't know if you've heard this, but we get quite a few people tell us uh their husbands work in tech. And in COVID, in lockdown, they got to see what their husbands were doing. And they there was a few ladies who said, Oh, my husband was a scrum master, and I thought, oh, that's a really good job. And there was one lady, um, she was uh she's now a junior developer, she's I think she's a senior developer now at MS. And um, she retrained because her husband was in tech and she saw that when she was at home in COVID. Um and she worked as a as a um academic and she said, I I I you have to be on site and you have to be in school, and I wanted a job where I could work from home and be with my family. So she retrained because she looked over her husband's shoulder and thought, I could do that.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Yeah. We see that so much as well. Like when we're doing the interviews for the program, I've had that story so many times of people saying, I didn't realise. And then my husband, and actually I've heard the COVID piece as well. Um, so it it must be, you know, people spending more time at home and hearing what their other half is doing. Spikes some education really about what roles exist and what it actually means.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Yeah, it definitely did open some people's eyes into oh, that's what it's like to work in tech. I could I could do that.

First Steps And An Open Mindset

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Um for someone though that's listening who's considering a career change into tech, but they feel unsure or intimidated, what advice would you give them to take the first step?

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Uh I think my biggest advice would be be open-minded. Um, a lot of people, especially if they're entering the tech space, they think that the career is linear. But what we see day in, day out, and you've probably seen this as well, is that it's really not. Every CTO that you speak to has taken a completely different route to get to their role. And all the roles are changing and shifting and evolving all the time as well, on top of that. So I always think of it as it's almost like a game of snakes and ladders. Um, it's not just about climbing the ranks. Sometimes you've got to move sideways, you go downwards, you go backwards to go forwards. But that's not failure necessarily, it's it's progression. Um, and I think as well, people think they have to have it all figured out, but you don't need to have it all figured out. You just need a way in and a route to get started, right? You don't need any permission, you just need that option to get going. So um, yeah, I think just be open-minded. If you've got the right attitude, you can learn the skills and just go.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

It's such good advice because I think that's something we're told at school as well, where it's you you pick your career route, that's what you're doing, um, especially with really traditional careers. Like if you want to be a lawyer, you go to law school and you're going to go in and and do that, and um that's your um only path. And actually, when you do talk to people that have been in work 15 years, for instance, they're like, I've taken so many different routes. And like you said, sometimes you go sideways, and sometimes as well, life happens, and you need to um change jobs or locations, you might have family, you might have um parents that you need to look after, or all of those things affect that you might change jobs suddenly, and nothing to do with you know your original career route. Um, you just needed some downtime to um because life happens. Um, and then you can go back and um ramp back on and um go, you know, or move into something completely different as well. I do think though that is something that we get in our heads from a very young age that we can't do that, or that we almost should be shameful that we want to move around and do it later in life. Like that's not okay. Um, but yeah, it it's lots of people do it, and I think the more that we share those stories and the more that we hear the stories like what you told that you hear in your academy, the more it inspires other people to think, oh, actually, I I could definitely give that a try.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, exactly. And that's it, you know, we're always thinking about how do we get to the next stage, you know. When you're at school, it's from primary school to secondary school, and then university, and then you get a job. But then when you enter the world of work, life is so different, it's it's not necessarily all laid out for you in the same way that it has been. But because we're programmed to accept things in that way, it becomes a bit of a shock to the system, and that's probably the baptism applier that you refer back to. Um, and we see that so much. So that's the advice I give to everyone that's starting the course is don't be closed-minded to anything, just be open-minded. You don't even know what roles exist yet, so just be open to it, and your career can go in lots of different routes. But if you have the right attitude, then you'll thrive.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yes, I love that. That is brilliant advice, um, and brilliant advice to end on because we um are all already at the end. I could keep chatting to you on this topic um uh for the rest of the afternoon. Um, but uh thank you, Claudia, so much for um chatting with us on spilling the tea, telling us all about the FOSS Academy. And we'll include a link in um the blurb to this as well so our community can find out more. Um, but thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure picking your brains today. Thank you for having me. It's been brilliant. Thanks so much. Thank you. And for everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for joining us, and we hope to see you again next time.