Beyond palatable: Why women are still punished for speaking up at work

In this episode, we speak with journalist and voice & visibility consultant Sophie Jane Lee to explore the uncomfortable truth behind workplace authenticity. Women are constantly told to “speak up” and “bring their whole self to work” — yet when they do, they’re often labelled difficult, emotional, or unlikeable. Sophie shares how the pressure to remain agreeable and palatable still shapes women’s behaviour in business, impacting confidence, pay and professional visibility.

Drawing from her own corporate experiences and her new book Beyond Palatable: A Manifesto for Unapologetic Women, she unpacks why people-pleasing persists, why “Girl Boss” culture can be harmful, and why the trend of celebrating the “unlikeable woman” may miss the real issue entirely. Having worked with global brands including Disney, The Huffington Post and L’Oréal, Sophie offers practical insight and a roadmap for building careers — and businesses — without self-silencing.

A conversation about power, perception and the cost of being heard.

Beyond Palatable: A Manifesto for Unapologetic Women by Sophie Jane Lee is out now, published by Luath Press, priced £14.99

SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.

Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.

Transcript

Why Speaking Up Still Costs Women

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Kaylee Bateman, the Managing Director at SheCan Code, and today we're discussing Beyond Palatable, why women are still punished for speaking up at work. I've got the wonderful Sophie Jane Lee, journalist and voice and visibility consultant and the CEO of Electric Peach with me today. She's here to explore the uncomfortable truth behind workplace authenticity. Sophie is going to share a little bit about how the pressure to remain agreeable and palatable still shapes women's behaviour in business, impacting confidence, pay, and professional visibility. Welcome, Sophie. It's a pleasure to have you on here. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me, Kaylee. It's a pleasure. We want to hear all about your book. Um, but can we start with a uh quick overview about you, where you come from, how you landed, where you are, and and what you're doing currently.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

I started my career about 15 years ago in journalism and then moved into content marketing and then brand marketing. Um, so I've been doing that for about 13 years now and running my own business, Electric Peach, for almost nine. And in that time, I have worked with thousands of women in all different roles, from still at university where I'm a guest lecturer, all the way through to really, really senior in huge corporations. And I have seen the same patterns play out over and over and over again, which is incredible, brilliant, erudite women that have just blown my mind apologizing for themselves any opportunity that they get. And I started to notice this pattern and started to work more specifically with female founders a couple of years ago and help them to own their voice with more conviction and authority and confidence, specifically around sharing their mission with the world, their vision with the world. And also, I work a lot in helping women to see the ways in which they're holding themselves back and regulate their nervous system in order to be able to fully show up as themselves without the fear of judgment, because judgment's going to happen unfortunately, no matter what. But to be able to navigate those waters with more groundedness and certainty in their own brilliance. And really, my underlying mission throughout all of this is to show women how brilliant they really are. Because I really believe that the world will be changed if women wake up to our own power and come together to share that power collectively. And so much of the challenges that we see around us are because women are kept small and keep ourselves and one another small as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love everything that you just said. Um you're absolutely right. Um recently I keep reading about um patterns, identify the pattern, stop repeating the pattern. And sometimes it's realizing that or having somebody like yourself or you know, reading a book um uh like yours to be able to think there is a pattern, I've identified it. How do I stop doing that? Um, can make such a big difference to your path um and just the way that you uh present yourself in the workplace, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Absolutely. In the book, I have a framework for unapologetic living, and the first step is awareness. And awareness is it's the first step, and it's the most challenging because when we start looking at all of the ways that we have been conditioned in to keep ourselves but also to keep one another in our place, it becomes impossible to ignore it, and then the hard work is doing something about it.

From Journalism To Voice Coaching

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yes, yes, exactly. Um uh one quick side note something we always ask on on here is about um how we came into our careers. We always talk about our our women in tech community, how they got into tech, fell into tech. How did you end up in journalism? Was there something that it inspired you when you were younger? We always talk about visible role models. So, was there somebody that inspired you to take that path?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

I have always wanted to be a writer, that was my ultimate dream. And actually, my ultimate, ultimate dream was to be an author. So that is very special that in two and a bit weeks that will be a dream come true. And I was working in the Czech Republic teaching English for to the Czech government and in different businesses, and decided that I needed to really give myself a kick up the bum because my life had become very hedonistic. So I moved to China, as we do, and um and started working at Disney. And there, from there, I I really pushed myself to get as many different experiences as possible and found myself with a column at Shanghai Daily, which is the English-speaking newspaper in Shanghai, and really loved it because it combined quite a few of my passions, which is being really nosy and wanting to find out more about people, what makes people tick. I love business, and it was business specifically that I was focusing on and writing. And from there, I just snowballed with it really. I just kept following the opportunities. And it was only when I had done the NCTJ, did my master's degree in multimedia journalism, and started working as a journalist in the UK, that I realized that I really don't want to be a journalist because it's so well, the best way that I can summarize what it's like, at least at the beginning of your career, is they teach you something called the death knot, which is how you go around to people's houses after someone they've loved has died, they love has died, knock on their door, and ask them to tell you about the experience of losing their loved one. And it was like becoming a pariah of human misery. And it was just really not for me. And I couldn't push through that to get to where I really wanted to be, which was more investigative journalism. So that's why I accidentally fell into content marketing. Um, but honestly, I think my role model still in terms of journalism and and also how I approach writing my book is John Ronson, because he is brilliant in the way that he tells a story and how he brings the humanity to really complex topics and is very nuanced in the way that he looks at things. And that for me is what I love about good quality journalism is looking at a story with as little bias. I think it's impossible to be unbiased, but to look at at least to look at all of the sides of the story to create an argument that is as well balanced as possible, even when you've got your leaning side of that argument.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yes, uh one that's why we always ask that question, because I never know what people are going to say. I've never heard I was in the Czech Republic speaking teaching English to the government and I moved to China. That's a new one, which is why we always ask. And uh two, myself and my colleague um who look after this podcast, um, we both have a background in journalism, and that was her exact reason why she decided not to go down that route. And myself, I actually moved into tech because of that reason, because journalism can be very gossipy and very ringing people up and ruining their lives. And actually, you move into tech, and you're right about tech news, and it's wonderful.

unknown 8:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

And that's what I did. I moved into marketing and business and marketing specifically, and what talking about business and how you can be successful in business and decoding finance. And I found that a really fulfilling application of the same skills of journalism because then it's more about teaching, and as you say, it's that that sort of opening up doors for people through the medium of communication, which I love to do.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yes, yeah, yeah, definitely finding your niche what works for you. But you quickly realize early on in your career perhaps what isn't working for you, um, which is a learning curve of the work. I'm no hack.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

I'm definitely not have that in me at all. No shade on anyone who loves that job, but it's not for me.

When Authenticity Becomes A Workplace Trap

SPEAKER_00 8:56

You're not alone on that one. Um, so I wanted to ask you, you argue that bring your whole self to work can actually be a trap. So what's really happening beneath that that seemingly positive message that everybody says? Bring yourself to work.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

It's interesting because that bring yourself to work as a trap is so tabloid journalism, isn't it? Like a trap. Just be yourself as I think it's it's not so much that it's an intentional trap that's set. I think when bring your whole self to work culture started around 10 years ago, it was with the best intentions of, okay, well, we understand that people are their best, most creative, most innovative self when they feel comfortable enough to be who they really are. But as we've seen with a lot of these different initiatives, and I'm sure Kaylee, that you've seen this an awful lot in the work you do, is that they weren't approached from a bottom-up perspective. So there wasn't psychological safety built into workplaces. And it became a trap in the sense that the expectation to bring your whole self to work is unfairly weighted. So you can be your full self far more if you come from a certain set of demographics and certain other demographics that becomes more and more and more challenging. And so the idea that that's just now an equal playing field and everyone can just be themselves is in and of itself completely incorrect and really toxic. Because then rather than the onus being on the company, it then becomes on the individual to show up and be brilliant. So in that way, it is really problematic. And then also it doesn't have any guidelines attached to it, because I'm really passionate about self-expression and authentic, truthful expression. And there are boundaries in the workplace that we need to be aware of because there is such a thing as inappropriate sharing, and especially in leadership positions, and if there's no one telling you what that actually means and what the expectations are, then things can become quite murky quite quickly. So I just feel I feel like it wasn't thought out at all, which is the case of many of these things. Just change this thing and everything will be fine without considering thousands of years of conditioning that create the environments in which most of us live on our day-to-day lives.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah. Yeah, I love that you mentioned psychological safety. And that is a discussion that we had on this podcast recently. Some companies are very good at creating that, and others, you quickly know you've stepped into something where you're not going to feel safe, you're not going to feel safe to speak up in meetings, um, to uh advocate for yourself, and you just think, oh, perhaps I'm not going to get on here. But some companies, you know what, even way back to our first episode of this podcast, somebody said to me, Being a woman in tech in particular, it's more than starting a Slack channel. And some companies think we started a Slack group or a Teams group, we put all of our women in there, and that's it. Everybody now feels psychologically safe that they have somewhere to chat. And actually, that's not quite true. Building that into a culture where people do feel like they can show up as themselves within some reasonable boundaries, as you said. Um that that takes a lot. That's not something that's done overnight.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

And also controversially, that assumes that all women are psychologically safe environments to be around. And and I and I I I say environment because each one of us is this ball of energy that literally does create the environment in which we operate. And in my research for Beyond Palatable, I spoke to hundreds of women and and looked at thousands and thousands of data points. And one consistent story that came up over and over again was that it was women, not men on the whole, who had created obstacles, challenges for these women in and in and outside of the workplace. So the idea that I know let's solve the challenges of women in tech by putting all women together because women have got it all figured out, is problematic. And on many different levels it's problematic.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, agreed, agreed. We always try and encourage that throughout the company. We do a lot of um, if we get invited to our partners' town halls, that's the best way to catch everybody because when we start doing separate events for women, separate things for women, it doesn't help anybody. We always encourage um male speakers to come on our events, and it needs to be a conversation for everybody because you are right, it can be problematic. We'd like at a conference, you'll see on the agenda it will say the women in tech event, and you'll see everybody leaving the show floor, all the women leaving the show floor to go and sit in that little room at a on a on a conference agenda, and you think that's that's no good for anybody.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

That no, because we really need to start looking systemically and whole system thinking of the fact that we are all part of this ecosystem that we exist within, and that we all need to be aware and accountable for our behaviours within that, and that we cannot do it in isolation.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yes, exactly. Um, so many women they are encouraged to be confident but penalized when they assert themselves. Uh, what does the line between confident and difficult, why does the line between confident and difficult still exist in the workplace, do you think? That difficult woman, that terrible term.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

What is it? Well, I mean it doesn't take much to be a difficult woman, does it? No. I pride myself on being a perpetually difficult woman. I well, it is the double bind that really inspired a lot of my thinking for beyond palatable, because on the one hand, we're encouraged to be confident but not full of ourselves, not too much. We're encouraged to be brilliant, but also humble. Where it's just this ridiculous expectation where we need to be acceptable but also exceptional. And you cannot be both acceptable and exceptional. The two things are completely separate from one another. And with for women because of thousands of years of conditioning, and interestingly, a lot of this you can see it when you start mapping out, which I obviously have for some complete geek, the timeline of the silencing of women. And even as little as hundred and something years ago, it was legally, it was illegal for women to have opinions and to stand out. So there's a lot in there around the ingrained belief of women being dangerous. See women's power being dangerous, women's voices being dangerous, women's unruliness being dangerous. And so the encouragement to be confident comes, I think, from this modern idea, again, looking at productivity, looking at innovation, creativity, and also tick box. Let's we need to do the right thing because we have to be equal. But then the ingrained belief system that we carry, all of us carry, because it's also women that do it to women as well when they say she's full of herself, she's up her own art, etc., comes from thousands of years of legally imposed silence. So that's deep. That if we're not aware of that playing out, then that's going to continue to play out regardless of how much we wish something was different. So I think that's what's at play. I don't believe that the line actually exists. I think it's completely it's a narrative completely created through our shared history and our shared social norms and contracts. But it is an impossible game to play. You can't, you cannot win it. So you may as well get to a point where you think, screw it, I'll just be a difficult woman then.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

It's worse things to be. I couldn't agree more actually, and it and and you mentioning there um about um women, sometimes women uh not helping each other, um, in that sense, actually, in my career, the people that have supported me or the the best sponsors have actually been men. They have been male bosses who have said all the right things about me when I'm not in the room, they've pushed me forward for the promotions um and supported me. And looking back, there were women in those positions that were they were in the position to do that, but they didn't. And it has always been um the male allies in in my career that have done that. So um it is super interesting that that does happen. And actually, um we had a conversation on here recently about men learning to speak up when they recognize that perhaps there's somebody in the room that isn't being listened to or she isn't saying something. Um I I had a conversation with a guy who said his wife is very, very senior in tech. And um when she was in uh a board meeting, because she was the only female in that board meeting, um, on two occasions, they pointed out that she will be taking the minutes. And on the second time that that happened, um, a man in the room spoke up and said, like, hey, let's share that happening. You know, like he was conscious of the fact that it had gone to her twice, and almost just men noting that and being able to say, if she feels a little bit difficult in speaking up and being that difficult woman and saying, I'm not taking the minutes every time, at least stepping in and being mindful of that, because she might be thinking, I don't want to be seen as the difficult woman in this room, but it wasn't fair.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

It's fantastic when you see men step in and be allies in that way, and that's the perfect example of what being an ally actually is. It's using your privilege and advantage of being able to speak out and being seen as assertive, not difficult, and giving somebody a lifeline in that way. And I just think that's beautiful, and I understand as well if you're in an environment where it's not safe to do that, no matter how much they say bring your whole self to work, that while another woman in that same situation wouldn't necessarily speak out, it's again, it's it's so complicated and so nuanced, and it's really important for those of us who have more of that ability to speak without impact, negative impact, to use our voices in that way.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yes, definitely. And as well, it it you phrased it perfectly there about there are so many different things, so many different reasons as to why somebody feels like at that moment in in in that boardroom, for instance, they might not be able to speak up. Whether, you know, where they're at in their career, whether they're new in that that position, um, new in that room, whether they have come from companies before where it was not um welcome to speak up. There are so many different things that when you do land in that position and you find yourself in in that opportunity to speak up while you might not feel like you want to, um, and to just to to be aware of that as well, rather than um sometimes it it doesn't help when people are like, yeah, you know, like go in and and like you said, bring your bring your whole self to work and be you and speak up. And it's like I as you said it's just there's so many layers to uh when you land in that opportunity to do it and how you do it. Um I think practice makes perfect on that though. We we had a discussion yesterday about negotiating at work, hard discussions, how to negotiate salary and pay and those kind of things. And one of the main things that came out of it was just don't let things build up because if something comes out in anger where you you haven't been, you know, thinking about it, practicing how to communicate, when you do speak up, it won't come out in Some sort of vicious, frustrated kind of way, or just you just asserting how you feel in that moment, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Exactly. And being able to navigate complex and um difficult conversations is such an important skill and such an important way to advocate for ourselves and also for each other and to demonstrate to other people that you're a safe place for them to come to if they need to say something honestly as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yes, exactly. Yeah, you being a safe space as well. Um definitely. Uh especially with the phrase uh pulling up the ladder behind you is what we tend to hear with um women who move into leadership positions as not pulling up the ladder behind you, being a safe space where people can come and ask you, you know, how did you feel when you stepped into leadership, that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yeah, unfortunately, we have been conditioned to believe that we are each other's competition. And I always think about it like we think that we're lampshades and there's only one socket, and so we're fighting for the socket, and we think if somebody else is shining their light, then it means that we can't shine our light. And then the reality is that we're actually fairy lights and that we shine much brighter when we're all shining, and it actually impacts us when someone in the line isn't shining, but that's not how we're told, that's not what we're brought up to believe. So it's a really important shift to understand our roles within that for one another and really be an advocate for women. We talked about being an advocate, a male advocate, a male ally. Women need to be advocates and allies for one another, too.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Yes, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Fairy lights and I it's a good idea, but I love it.

People Pleasing As A Safety Response

SPEAKER_00 23:51

I think it works really well as a tonal. Yeah, it does, because you all need to be working together for the Christmas tree to shine. Um, definitely. So um, in Beyond Palatable, you talk about people pleasing as a survival strategy rather than a weakness. How should women rethink their relationship with it?

SPEAKER_01 24:12

People pleasing, it's having some bad press, isn't it? It's so it's so demonised, and I feel really sad when I hear it. And I used to do it myself as well. I would you I would say I was a recovering people pleaser. And I now, because I've trained in somatics, which is the connection between the mind and the body, I understand now the nervous system much better, and now see that people pleasing is a fawn response and is a part of nervous system reaction to feeling unsafe. So when if you have been conditioned from a young age, for whatever reason, it could be because of unstable adults, it could be because of just culture and the way things were when you were younger, to put your own needs aside in favor of pleasing others, and that's how you felt safe. That is ingrained within your body and your safety systems. And it is not that easy to just go, okay, cool, I'm not gonna do that anymore, because it's literally your body reads that like a life or death threat. A so upsetting the shaking the apple cut, upsetting the apple cut, whatever the expression is, it feels like a a saber-toothed tiger's coming at you. So it's completely normal when you have been conditioned in that way to just do the thing that feels safe, that calms your nervous system down, even when it feels really horrible to you because you feel like you've sacrificed yourself. And that's a really that lack of self-trust is a really corrosive experience. So, a much more helpful way of going about dealing with people-pleasing tendencies is to regulate your nervous system so that you don't have those fight, flight, freeze, fawn responses in the first place, or at least so you can catch it before it gets to a point where you feel like you're under massive threat and you're gonna die. And it sounds very dramatic, but that is the experience. It's steady. It's very anxiety-inducing. And what doesn't regulate the nervous system is making yourself wrong and blaming yourself and telling yourself, oh, why am I such a people pleaser? Why do I always do this? That actually makes it worse. So I don't a lot of this work, I say it over and over again, we cannot think our way out of it. If only we could, we cannot think our way out of it. We have to go into the body, we have to learn the signals that come from the body that create the thoughts and the feelings that drive the behaviors and go to the body first to help it not feel unsafe. And if we can do that, and we do it with kindness and compassion, then those feelings and those thoughts become less and less and less pervasive, and the subsequent behaviors are less difficult to control.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

I yes, I couldn't agree more because when that happens in the moment as well, when you, you know, you might be having an awkward conversation with somebody, and then you just think, yeah, I didn't stop and think, you know, how should I respond to this or look inwards? I didn't, I just totally reacted in the way that I usually react. And now I'm really annoyed with myself that I did that. So at least I agree, being kind to yourself when that happens because you don't stop. If you could freeze time and think, how do I want to respond to this?

unknown 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

If only we could all just navigate perfectly the whole thing. No, it's just not, it's not realistic. And and what I have found in my own cultivation of self-compassion with how I respond to things, is it's given me a lot more understanding and compassion for other people. So when other people behave in ways that I find affronting or upsetting or just weird, which people are weird, or weird. Um I can then go, okay, well, I get I get what's probably going on here. And I can try at least not to be so judgmental about it.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Yes. That that is a good point, actually, sometimes also that the moment when you start to recognize other people's inner child or their childhood trauma, and you're staring at them thinking, I can see it. I can see it, but it was almost a good thing because you are right. It does help you to think why that person is reacting that way. And not all things are um personal, not to take things personal either, because you're right, that person is responding in a way that they have just been so used to. That is their pattern, it's not necessarily about you and what you've said in the workplace. It's you know, it's their past, it might have been even a difficult boss that they dealt with previously, um, and they're just you know reacting, that's their defense mechanism. So um, yeah, it's a good thing. So as you said before, awareness.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Yeah, awareness is always the first step. My dad always used to say, when you don't when you don't like somebody, it says more about you than it does about them, which I really appreciate that because when I find something frustrating, I ask myself, what's going on here? Because why like this person's not doesn't like this is not about them. What is this that I can learn about myself? Um, I don't want to give the impression like I'm some kind of figured out person, because I'm definitely not, and I find people really annoying and I'm very impatient and can be very judgmental, but it's all a practice and a work in progress. And I think the biggest shift for me now to where I was when I started this investigation were is that I don't take myself so seriously anymore, and I don't judge myself for my ridiculous, messy humanness, which I think will ever be cured.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Yes, yeah, but what a nice realization, or what a nice journey to have gone through to to bring that book together. Um I I couldn't agree more here at at my house. Um I renovate, so I have a lot of uh different tradesmen come through the door, and um I have been having that realisation recently about the people that have been coming through here, and sometimes you just get that feeling of I don't like you. And I started thinking, why? Like what was triggering me to not like that person, and what was triggering me when other people turned up that had a really nice energy about them, and I'd and I internally I'd go, Oh, it's so and so being more mindful of how I was reacting internally when different tradesmen turned up and almost like what they would bring into the house and thinking, like there they must there is something there, because they don't normally have that amount of people coming through the house. Um, so you're all right, suddenly it's the realization of why am I feeling that way about certain people? And it is something about me, not necessarily about them, because all they want is tea. So you know, they haven't said anything.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Sometimes you just you just gel battle with different different people, and it doesn't mean that anyone's wrong or right or better or worse. It's just whatever energetically speaks to you more is is what you you find more attractive in people.

The Problem With Girl Boss Culture

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Exactly. Um and uh another phrase that you have um criticized, girl boss culture and the rise of the uh of the be unlikable narrative. Um what's the healthier alternative there? Girl boss, be unlikable, neither good.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

I don't have a problem with I don't have a problem with any of them really. The girl boss culture I have a I do have a big problem with it, but not because of the term girl boss, because of what it actually means and the co-opting of extra very extractative capitalist behaviours under the guise of female empowerment. I have a real a real problem with that. Um, and that's a whole podcast episode. I've got a chapter in my book that is dedicated specifically to this because it's quite complicated, and a lot of people could say that I'm being misogynistic from criticizing it in the first place. But where I'm coming from is that with the rise of this idea of the female boss, what actually started to happen was that it was very much uh privileged, often white middle class women who were coming into these positions of power and using the exact same strategies and structures that uh are used in patriarchal societies. Because the patriarchy isn't men against women, it's patriarchal systems or patriarchal systems. And it's just a recreation of those patriarchal systems that took advantage of other women, particularly in the context of some tangible examples, were clothes companies that used women's labour free or very cheap labor and acted like this was like some kind of women's empowerment girl boss, like, look at me, I'm a female boss type thing. Under the surface, really taking advantage of women in the same way any other business does, irrelevant what your gender is when you're running a business in exactly the same way that is taking advantage. Other examples are the some elements of the coaching industry where it's basically snake oil selling and it's using manipulation tactics, NLP, to make women, specifically targeting women again, believe there's something wrong with them, and that if they just part with their money and do another course, then they'll realize the like the answer, and then everything will change, and making these ridiculous claims that are completely unsubstantiated, and then when it didn't work, blaming the woman rather than looking at their systems. So that's the issue that I have with the Girl Boss culture. The unlikable movement, I don't have an issue with it. I just don't resonate with the context, the concept of it, because it again feels to me like we're still talking and positioning ourselves in relation to other people's judgments. And it feels quite it feels like this whole, oh, if you think I'm unlikable, then I'm gonna be unlikable kind of thing, which for me is still about like orbiting around that policing axis of still have like having this terminology that describes and still puts people into boxes, which I also don't love because then it ignores that power can look soft and be kind. And actually, you can be nice and smile and still be powerful. You don't have to be bold and sassy and angry. It it it that that for me is that that's the thing. It's it doesn't it doesn't feel very inclusive, and it feels more like it's leaning towards being edgy than being actually helpful in moving the conversation forward. And I really want women to move away from rejection and improve and approval as the orientation around their truth and and their value, and instead move towards their own groundedness and their own sense of themselves, and also to be likable is really important part of being successful, it just is for everybody, and I don't think that being powerful means you have to be unlikable. I think you can be extremely likable and also really effective and amazing.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Yes, uh you know what you're reminding me of a conversation um years ago where um a few senior ladies in tech had said about the bringing yourself to work, um, your whole self to work. And actually that is they were trying to encourage women to do that in the sense that companies are looking for you to be feminine as a leader. They are looking for you to bring those traits and those things that you would look at and think, oh, you know, she's being a difficult woman and she's being, you know, the girl boss and all of those, almost to ignore them because a company has hired you to be you because they don't want you to be a repeat of the men that came before them. Unfortunately, a lot of those women have picked up traits from their male bosses, like you said, have just come straight in and done it again, but being aware of that, and then when you do get the chance to step into leadership, thinking I can do that, that's why I've been hired. I have been, you know, I might be the only female in this room, but I need to retain that and all the good things about it because that's why I was hired to be me. That's the bring your whole self, not the one without the boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

And I really love the idea of not being governed by the need to be liked. I think that's really important because that need to be liked, and certainly for myself, that that obsessive desire to be liked meant I outsourced my worth and outsourced my decisions to everybody else all the time. That's different from being unlike a bull, which for me feels like a lot more about how you treat other people. Yeah. And the energy you create for other people, which just it just isn't, it isn't how I perceive the future. I see the future being far more nuanced, far more open for all people to be who they actually are, without weird competition and weird expectation of co-opting these attributes that actually most people don't have. A lot of men don't have these attributes either. They also are pretending. And wouldn't it just be fantastic if we could all just be our brilliant selves without needing to put on some kind of performance?

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Yes. You get in and you think it's I have to be the Wolf of Wall Street, and that is that's what I'm aiming for, apparently. Um I uh what you said though about being likable, if you run your own business, you have to be likable. People won't want to work with you.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

So they won't work with you if you're not likable. Like it's and that's like you're not gonna be for everyone. I I had a I had a potential client was referred to me from another client who has amazing results with us, and he went to Electric Peach's website and said, I'm not gonna work with you, it's far too colourful, I can't take you seriously. Well, he's like us, and that's fine. That doesn't mean that we're unlikable though, because we are infinitely likable. It's an absolute vibe on our website, it's just not for him. And I think for me, and I it might just be that I'm a complete pedant and language obsessed, that certain words for me jar and that the movement itself is much wider than that and much more nuanced. I know it is, and there's some brilliant, beautiful thinkers within that field that I really respect. I just can't help but get hung up on the language around it.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Oh, I mean, it that wouldn't have been a good client um anyway, but the sounds of it.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

If you're offended by our website, wait until you see what it's like working with our high octane team.

Undercharging, Worth, And CEO Identity

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Yeah, I think you all dodged a bullet there. Um talking about um being an entrepreneur, uh, because that's not for the faint-hearted, um, it's a whole other conversation as well. Um, female entrepreneurs, they still earn significantly less than men. So beyond negotiation tactics, what structural or psychological barriers keep that gap in place?

SPEAKER_01 40:57

It's interesting, isn't it? Because even when we're setting our own value, because a lot of that isn't because we're not being paid that, it's because we're not charging that. And that is a real problem I see over and over again. Women chronically undercharging. And it's painful, I think, for a lot of us to even think about charging more. It feels super dangerous, like absolutely not. No, I'll go a little bit more, but no, I can't. The the idea that I charge this much is preposterous. Um, a lot of that I think comes down to our own sense of our own worth and how we see ourselves in the world. Women are much less likely to refer to themselves as CEOs, for example. Whereas a man will have a side hustle and be a CEO, you know. Good for them, like good for them. I've only just started calling myself a CEO and claiming that title and not feeling awkward about it. And so, again, it a lot, again, it comes back to doing that inner work. And what has been a game changer for me in valuing myself effectively, and it's still a work in progress, is working with other women and really being part of a collective of women who are determined to lift themselves up and one another up and be hyper accountable to it, but also to hold each other accountable, to be like, you're undercharging and I'm not having it. And with that, I work with a coach and she talked about undercharging as a manipulation strategy, and I can't unthink that now. She's like, you're undercharging is another form of people pleasing. You're trying to manipulate people into buying from you by undercharging what the value of your services actually are. And we start seeing it like that. Okay, right, now I can start to unpick where that's coming from and start moving the dial.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

That's an interesting one, because yeah, but I mean, we could do a whole other podcast just on that.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Yeah, there's so there's so this is such a complicated topic. And as I say, it comes from thousands of years of conditioning, and we have only had any kind of autonomy for a very, very tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny slither of time. And there's no way we're gonna have it all figured out in that time. And I think what we're in right now is the is the figuring it out messy middle that is actually doing really well in in all things considered, really. If you think about how far we've come in such a short space of time, and of course, this is not universal. There's still women all over the world who still need like the very basic liberation, and now it's time for us to. use our power, I think, and our support to help all women across the world.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Yes, definitely. And and that remembering how you feel when you do get those opportunities and you do step into that position or you do take on the role of CEO and how you feel about that. Um I'd felt stepping into leadership is quite a lonely place as well. And sometimes you just need somebody that has done it to confide in to say, did you feel like that as well? Because you can't confide in your team or anybody around you because you don't want to freak anybody out. Everyone expects you to know everything. So you can't say anything. But almost having another female leader that has done that to say you're not the only one that's feeling that way and it's fine and you will move through it sometimes can make such a difference to how you approach leadership.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Yeah, absolutely. And what a gift for for someone else to be able to be that support for others as they rise. It's the opposite of pulling the ladder up. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

So for listeners who feel that they've been self-silencing at work for years, what is the first realistic step towards becoming more visible without risking burnout or backlash.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

I think the first thing is to not try to do it all at once and take small actions. I'm a real really big believer in small actions. James Clear's Atomic Habits really brilliant book talks about 1% differences making a really making a compound difference overall. So 1% more explicit 5% more explicit and trying what it's like to speak out in moments that are safer around people who you trust and you feel are your advocates and your your um your allies and saying the thing that you want to say but that you haven't easily said and seeing how it lands and the more that you can do that in safe spaces the more you're training your body that it's safe your nervous system that it's safe. And it's really important to regulate first. So make sure that you're doing it from a place of calm and back to your breath where you feel feel your feet breathe into your feet. It's a it can be a real game changer because we spend so much time up in our heads just really putting our energy and attention into our feet and reminding ourselves that we are here and that we are safe and just trying it out with things that aren't going to have massive impact. The other thing I would bear in mind is that most people are not as controversial as they think they are. And if somebody like me who is quite controversial is can do it and navigate it well, then you with your opinions and your sparks of brilliance that you're holding back because of whatever story you've created, you can do it. It's just allowing those sparks to come out bit by bit by bit and showing yourself more than anything that it's safe to do that and continue to grow from that point.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Yes, I completely agree. If you do that as well if you keep finding that you're trying to do that in a workplace and it is not being met very well is something that you need to realize as well. I think when we start work we seem to think that that is what all companies are going to be like whether you land in a a corporate or a startup or whatever and just being able to move around a little bit you do notice I've gone from some companies where it's like my whole nervous system just breathed a sigh of relief where I got out of somewhere and got into somebody somewhere else and you do notice that there are certain places where you can start to come out of yourself a little bit more and say those things when you do want to say them. But if you are constantly met with you know people telling you that you are difficult or wherever it may be that that's not a good place for you. There are really good companies out there and maybe it's time to make a jump.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

Exactly and companies need to realize that they are what they are because of their brilliant people and create space for everybody to have that opportunity to shine. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Exactly that is a lovely piece of advice to end it on there because we're already out of time. I could keep talking to you all afternoon on this topic by the way um really excited for your um book to come out we're going to share it with our community they can purchase um before pre-sale as well so we will share it with our community um to all of our wonderful listeners please do take a look um but it's been an absolute pleasure Sophie chatting with you so thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Thank you so much for having me and thank you everyone for listening.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Thank you everybody for listening and we hope to see you again next time.