What it really takes to navigate your career like a legend

What does it really take to build a career that lasts in today’s fast-changing world? In this episode, we’re joined by Natalie Abou-Alwan, author and illustrator of How To Navigate Your Career Like A Legend (Brown Dog Books, September 2025), for an honest conversation about navigating ambition, resilience, and reinvention. With over 25 years’ experience as a London-based lawyer working with top City and Wall Street firms, as well as global organisations like JPMorgan and BP, Natalie brings deep, real-world insight from high-pressure industries. Recognised as a Rising Star on the Legal500 GC Powerlist, she is also a respected voice in the international energy sector and a passionate advocate for empowering others in tech and business careers.

This episode explores how to create networks that genuinely support you, adapt as your career evolves, and thrive — especially as a woman navigating complex, sometimes challenging sectors.

SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.

Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Kaylee Batesman, the Managing Director, Community and Partnerships at Seatan Code, and today we are discussing what it really takes to navigate your career like a legend. I've got the wonderful Natalie Abu Awan, author and illustrator of how to navigate your career like a legend, who is here to share details about her amazing career so far, but also how to create networks that genuinely support you, adapt as your career evolves and enables you to thrive. Welcome, Natalie. Thank you so much for coming on. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here. Can we start with a little bit about you to set the scene, please?

Squiggly Careers And Early Choices

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Yes, well, thank you very much for asking me. It's lovely to meet you today. Yes, I am a lawyer. I've been a lawyer for about 25 years now. I was working in private practice in the city and in um, I think it was the oldest Wall Street firm, but in their London branch. And I went in-house at six years qualified to JP Morgan and set up, this was back in 2006, set up their energy and commodities trading business for EMIA. And then after about six years there, I moved to BP, PLC, and worked predominantly on their oil trading floor. And I have written this book in the meantime because I've always been a keen observer of corporate behaviors. Um and I wanted to put something together that um frankly I wished I'd had myself when I'd started my career and actually throughout my career as I got to leadership um positions as well, just to see the different perspectives on things. So that's me in a nutshell. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

I love that that you said as well that you through uh, you know, the the the way that you went through your career. Um, and I I wanted to ask you, we something that we always ask um people on this podcast about um what they wanted to do at university and and where they thought their career was going to take them, because a lot of our community, they've had such squiggly careers, and they and you kind of come out of university thinking, I have to do that that thing that I've studied. And actually, it takes you all all all around the houses, and that's absolutely fine. Is that something that you found?

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Yeah, definitely. And I've always thought in a way the American system was better than the UK system because you I always feel with the UK you have to choose and you have to somehow, as a very young person, know what you want to do. Well, that's just crazy. You know, life, as you say, kind of can be squiggly and and different opportunities arise that you wouldn't have foreseen. So, no, I absolutely, there was no way I thought I'd be a lawyer. And in fact, um, if anything, I wanted to be in broadcasting and television. Um my mother was an actress, and she very I remember at the age of about 15, she put me off completely and said, no way. Um and then actually when I was at university, it just happened that the college I was at was very strong for law. I didn't know that. And so um I got to know a lot of the students who are studying law, and they told me about the law conversion course, and that's how I got myself into law basically. It was not something I thought I'd ever do when I was 17, 18 years old.

What “Career Like A Legend” Means

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Amazing. Yes, you never quite know. We we always um on here talk about role models and um how people find themselves in in certain careers. And unfortunately in tech, you don't come across a lot of those role models either, where you look and you think, that's a job that I I want to do. Um so it, you know, people encouraging you, whether at school or at home, um, into certain careers or or away from other careers as well, uh, really does help when um you do start to pick, because you are right, in this country we do seem to think, that's it, I've chosen that that subject and that's all I'm gonna do. Um God forbid I ever took a side step or did something uh completely different. Um, your book, uh so it talks about navigating your career like a legend. What does that actually mean in real life beyond all the buzzwords?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah, so I should probably explain. Uh it's called How to Navigate Your Career Like a Legend, not because I think I'm a legend, because I don't, far from it, but because what I've done in this book is to make it a little bit more entertaining, well, from my perspective anyway, is to weave in stories from living legends or or legends of the past, so famous figures, real life inspiring stories of when they've either helped people or they've been helped or they've been struggling and how they got through that challenge. Um, and so for me, you know, being a legendary, if you like, is really learning to value yourself. And because if you value yourself, that's when you can start to value others. It's the same as respect. If you respect yourself, only then can you respect other people. Being authentic, um, so you can inspire others as well, and really, you know, walk the talk. Uh, and building your resilience, which is fundamental, you know, that's a fundamental life lesson, not just professionally, but even in your personal life, so that you can learn from challenges. I always say you don't learn when things go well. You don't learn from the successful deal unless you've had some challenges along the way. Uh, and it teaches you to just come back stronger.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yes. I couldn't agree more on that one. Um, you are right, you don't learn when when things um go well. We're always very inspired uh in our community by um, especially people that have launched their own businesses and uh how hard that can be, and um that that takes a certain type of person as well to think, I'm gonna keep doing this because there are times when things are really gonna go wrong, um, but I'm gonna keep learning from this experience and and um keep growing um definitely. So um a book like yours would be um super useful to to our community. Um to our listeners, by the way, we're going to include a link to Natalie's book and so you know where to go and uh purchase a copy um as well. Um you've spent over 25 years working across top city firms, Wall Street, um, and global organizations. What were the biggest turning points that shaped how you approach your career today?

SPEAKER_02 6:17

I think a lot of it came down to uh discovering what actually makes my working life interesting. And that sounds like a really odd thing to say, but especially with law, you know, when you're generally submerged under tons of documents, you have to find something that keeps you motivated, keeps you interested. Um, and a lot of law is, you know, is the law, it's the is the black letter law. So the area I was in and I absolutely loved was far more commercial as a lawyer. And that's why I really enjoyed being in industry. So I was in a law firm, I was in a couple of law firms, but actually being close to the commercial teams was what really made for me law very colourful. And um, so so that was really being able to work closely with my business team so they can deliver on their strategy. Um, doing some really innovative cutting-edge deals in the market as well, that that gave me a real buzz with smart people. Um, and even, you know, sitting on male-dominated trading floors, you know, people always say to me, Oh my god, that must have been awful, you must have seen such terrible behaviors. And you know, there were some colourful types, but actually, again, that made it more interesting for me. Um, and you know, one of the best bits of advice actually I ever received when I first went to sit on the trading floor was traders smell fear. And it's very true. So as a lawyer, you know, you're always generally thought of as kind of the gatekeeper, the blocker, the person who's always going to say, no, you can't do this. And I hate lawyers who do that because for me it's lazy. It just means they haven't tried to understand what their client needs, they haven't tried to understand the strategy, and they haven't understood their job enough to know where you can flex a little bit, where you can keep within the law, but you don't have to do everything completely in the clear. There are gray areas and commodities trading and trading in general, we're always taking risk. So you have to get comfortable with that risk, and that comes with experience. So I had to learn pretty quickly, and there was no one to teach me. I had to learn pretty quickly on a trading floor. You need to know what you're talking about because time literally is money. Um, and if you don't know what you're talking about and you get intimidated by a bulgey trader who's going to make millions on one trade, you know, you need to really be able to stand up for yourself because uh you get eaten alive sometimes. So that kind of gave me full strength. Um, but I loved it, you know, you you sink or swim, and I I enjoyed that fast-paced, dynamic environment.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. That must have been such an experience. Even if you'd done that for um, you know, a year or two years, that would have m uh made you as a person when you went on and thought maybe that wasn't for me, or I'd like to try something else, but what you would have uh taken away from that experience um would it would have really um changed you and and and where you went next. I love that. And I love the fact that as well that you said figuring out what you enjoy and what you want to do. That is something that I think we don't figure that out until you've been in work for several years. You know, we you you come out of university, you go in, you take whatever job is going really kind of in what you want to do, but you know, it's really difficult to even get a job. And then you're so focused on staying in that job and you might jump ship and like you know, uh after a couple of years, but it actually takes a while to figure out uh do I even enjoy what I do? What parts of what I do do I enjoy? Um, and like you said, without those experiences, it's it's um difficult to try and narrow down what you actually enjoy about work because you do get to that point where you're like, I'm not gonna be doing this until retirement. I need to figure out what I really enjoy about my job um and and move in that direction.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

And generally, I think you know, you're good at something you enjoy. So those are the transferable skills that, you know, even if you want to move industry, those are the things you know you can start to work out for yourself as to okay, what what do I really get out of this? What am I really good at? Why am I good at it? And where else can I use those skills?

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Yeah, yeah.

Burnout And What Helped

SPEAKER_01 10:28

And it does take practice. And even going into environments like that where you might have thought, I'm really not enjoying this, I need to go somewhere else. But you take something from um every every experience. Um, and actually, when you were talking about that experience, I really wanted to ask you about burnout, um, which was in my next question. Um, and I wanted to say um, you know, you're very open about um bias, burnout, and resilience. Um, can you share a moment when one of those challenges nearly knocked you off course and what happened to keep you going?

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Yeah, and uh, you know, funnily enough, again, people probably assume that my burnout um or what I think I got close to burnout, to be to be perfectly open about it, um, was not from the trading floor. It was before I went and sat on trading floors. It was actually in private practice in a law firm. And I was working in a Wall Street firm where, you know, you have to build certain target hours to get your bonuses, um, to keep your job. And the work was gener, I would say 90% of the work I found really uninteresting, unmotivating. The team dynamics were not healthy, the working hours were incredibly long. Um, and I remember on one deal I was still in the office and I was told, look, you can go home, have a shower, have a coffee, and come back. This was so four in the morning. And I just thought, I just need a change of scenery. I can't sit here another night through the night. This is ridiculous. And you know, the documents I looked at the next day were terrible. They had repetition, you know, I could barely use grammar, you know, I was exhausted. And that was not just a one-off. Those kind of, you know, long days and long nights were the regular. And it would tend to be, this is before obviously virtual working and working from home, you know. So there'd be a whole, let's say, a Saturday or a whole Sunday, I'd have to actually go into the office and sit in the building and carry on doing some other incredibly boring piece of work that would take hours to do. So, you know, I think, I think feeling um, or as close as I think I got to what people go through as burnout, a lot of it, and I talk about this in my book, is this sucking the joy out of your life. Because had I enjoyed it, maybe I wouldn't have felt so burnt out. Um, and this goes back to what we were saying before about really trying to figure out what it is you're good at, what it is you like. And if you're lucky enough to be in a team that's supportive, that's fun to be with. I mean, some of the best teams I've worked with have been the ones where, you know, you can just say, oh my God, this is just exhausting. I'm gonna just have to take a break. I'll come back first thing tomorrow morning and go through this, and people understand. Um, so so you know, what get got me through that period was really having people in my professional life and in my personal life who were supportive, who'd listen, and who basically said to me, you know, they could take a step back and be objective for me and just say, look, be gentle on yourself, you know, just take it easy. Um, but yeah, it's it's tough. And I was probably in my mid to late 20s when I experienced that. And I know people can can, you know, if you don't, if you go through your career unchecked, it can happen more than once.

Leadership Means Noticing The Unsaid

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Yes. Yes, and I couldn't agree more about finding what you enjoy because work is hard, you know, and nobody is thinking, oh, this is wonderful, I have to go to work. But if you enjoy what you're doing, um, it makes such a difference because it, you know, you have those moments where you're like, well, this is this is really hard, but at least I really enjoy my job and I enjoy at least what we're trying to achieve as a company and as a team. Um, and like you, you you said there, if you've got people on your team that are supportive and helping you, it's when you find yourself when that's not happening and you're at the wrong company and you feel very, very isolated. Um, we have a lot of people in our community who talk about when they step into leadership for the first time, for example, and it can feel very lonely because they haven't got anyone to confide in at that moment where they're like, can't tell anyone that I don't know what I'm doing, I'm struggling internally, I'm doing too much. Everybody expects me to have all the answers and I'm gonna burn out, and that can be quite a lonely place um for some people. And at that moment they start to think, I'm not enjoying this. Um, and it it has such an effect on um your mental health and whether or not you enjoy your day um and and want to keep going back. Um, like you said, even even those checkpoints, knowing that someone is checking in on you can make such a big difference.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Uh yeah, and I think as a leader, you know, being able to recognize it in others, you know, people go into leadership positions because title is, you know, sparkly and glamorous. And what they don't appreciate sometimes is that a lot of being a leader is about psychology and being able to spot things in your team and making your team feel like you know you really do have their back and sharing that, not just saying it. And having that kind of um uh team safety, if you like, and looking after your team so that you can spot it, you know, burnout or stress, or you know, I I had a couple of people it was in fact during COVID when we were all having to work remotely, who uh for different reasons were going through very difficult family situations and allowing them sort of space to be able to talk uh so that you could uh appreciate look, this is the added stress on top of the work stress. This has also got to be factored in to their performance and how can I help? Um I think that's that's important. And yeah, going into those leadership positions, you know, a lot of it is the people skills and understanding people and actually liking managing people. It's not just about the title, you have to be there for your team.

Mindsets That Build Longevity

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Yes, yeah, and hearing sometimes the things that are unsaid, um, like like that, if you are noticing that somebody is struggling, um, but they might not have said anything or they might not want to um even mention that you know that that pressure is there, um, just um checking in and and and and saying, you know, uh you might not have said it, but I can I can hear how you feel. Yeah, exactly. Um for people working in a fast evolving or traditionally tough sector like tech or law or energy, uh what skills or mindsets matter most for building a career that actually lasts?

SPEAKER_02 17:04

I think um really it's just keeping an open mind and staying humble. I think the minute you think you know everything or you've got nothing left to learn is is when you kind of you're failing yourself really. Um, quite frankly. I would also say, you know, network, network, network. Um it's a dirty word to a lot of people. Um, and I've found particularly uh women and um other minority groups struggle with this word more than say white men um in the working place. So really getting to know your colleagues and not feeling that you know networking is cheating or time wasting or bothering other people, bothering senior people who'd rather not have to speak to you. Um, and we can we can talk more in detail about that at some point, but I think it means you're really um you're forming those very strong professional connections, which is vital for other opportunities that can come up for you that wouldn't necessarily be there if you just basically stayed behind the desk, kept your head down and did the work. That that is not really uh a recipe for success in the workplace. Um I would also say if you don't already try and get yourself some good mentors, uh, not just one, but if you can, several, to be your own, if you like, cheerleaders. Um and from that mentorship, that then expands your network as well, kind of organically. And often that's when you get good sponsorship as well. So people actually talking about you and advocating for you when you're not necessarily in the room, and that also is vital to keep a long-lasting career, I would say.

Mentors Sponsors And Asking Boldly

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Yes, definitely, and I so agree with a a mix of that as well of um the people internally that are um saying things about you, good things when you're not in the room can help so, so much. Um, but also the mentoring, finding a mentor internally is really useful, but also finding external mentors makes such a difference because you will tell them different things and they will share different things with you. And there might be things that you think I can't really share that because I'm I'm worried that it might be shared around internally, but I can confide in somebody externally, they'll tell me their experience of how they've dealt with that situation. Um couldn't agree more, finding a mix of people that are there at your support system. We actually started our mentoring program in our community. Our members asked us to do it, and uh, reason being you're told to go and find a mentor, and um, you will reach out to lots of people on LinkedIn, and it's actually quite disheartening when you can't find anybody. If your company doesn't have a mentoring program, it can be quite disheartening, and you think, Well, I reached out and nobody's helping me. So we um created this directory to um put everybody in there that wanted to be a mentor, and then you can go in and and and pick. Um, but it is it's quite difficult to find the not only the support, but the right support as well, because finding the right mentor that can really help you can make such a difference. But sometimes finding that person, like you said, without the dirty word of networking, where are you gonna find that person who is going to help you? Um, and you know, post-COVID, everything has become harder with networking, and people don't seem to have that, especially with hybrid working, they don't seem to have that thought of I'm gonna go to a networking event. Um, it doesn't happen as often as it as it used to. Um, so when you are thinking about your next jump, for instance, your next role, um, that can be quite difficult, especially for minority groups. Um, as you said, uh definitely.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah, and I think even even sort of networking events, you know, just I I know from especially when I was a young lawyer, I used to hate them. I used to hate having to go to these drinks with clients. Because I thought I just don't want to, I've just spent a whole day working. I now don't want to have to go and talk about work in the evening. What does that mean? You know, and I for me, networking is something that should be far more organic than that. And it can be anything from, and as I've said already, you know, I sat on trading floors, you know, I would watch how somebody on the trading floor, let's say on the business side, was operating, how they were respected, the influence they seemed to have over uh, you know, uh the trading floor. And that could be women as well as men.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

And I would just say, look, I you know, sound like a bit of a stalker, but look, I've watched you, um, I've been in meetings with you, I've been so impressed with how you dealt with. XYZ, I would love it if you had the time to mentor me because I think I could learn a lot from you. And if you flip it the other way around, you know, people say, Oh, I'd be too embarrassed to do that. Well, why? Because actually it's very flattering for the person who's being asked, just on a human level. Um, and also I know from my own, you know, mentoring others, I've learned so much from the people I mentor, and you gain such insights from them that you would never have learned otherwise. And again, their networks open up to you as well. So it's a kind of it's a it's a two-way thing, really.

Networking Without Feeling Transactional

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yes, definitely. You are correct. People do like being off that. And normally, if you ask somebody, even if you ask somebody for help with something that you're working on at work, they like being asked. So, yeah. Um and touching upon that, you networking, it is talked about, but it is rarely uh it's done. Um, rarely it's done well. As you mentioned, it can be difficult to go to a um networking event and think, oh, I'm gonna have to walk up to people and introduce myself. And um a lot of people don't like doing that. So a lot of us do it really, really badly, even if we do turn up. Um so how do you go about building meaningful professional relationships without it feeling transactional and also exhausting?

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Yeah, and and again, I go back to this, it's got to feel more natural. Um and that can be just from, you know, if you if you start in a new company, get to know your colleagues, get to know what they're working on, um, you know, talk to people. You know, I know a lot of people who are just so nervous and shy, and oh, you know, I just want to get my work done and not mess it up. And you know, yes, that that is part of the job. But actually, you need to be able to talk to other people to also find out what projects you might want to get involved in. It starts opening out your horizons as well. I think also things like, you know, joining groups. So you can join committees internally, a topic that you want to learn about or that you already have some experience about, where you can add some value. Um, things like you know, a lot of these business resource groups, DEI groups, I've found are fantastic ways for people to get to know each other and learn different perspectives and work together on certain initiatives that is not in your immediate, you know, obvious working realm, if you like. Um, and then you know, from those sort of internal groups, you can look at outside groups. So is there, let's say, I don't know, a women's network. I worked in Canary Wharf for a long time. And there were a lot of um networks across companies in Canary Wharf that you could get involved with. And again, you can share knowledge, share best practice that way, and really get to know people. I mean, I would say a lot of the people I work with, which you know, we spend so much of our day at work, you end up really building strong professional friendships as well, and and people that you can call on, you can trust, and and vice versa, they can do the same for you, uh, to you. Um so, you know, starting without without it sort of seeming like this sort of exam almost you have to sit, it's just something gentle that you okay, you find an area that you're particularly interested in, or a group that you like the sound of what they're doing, and and join them. Because again, like with being asked to be a mentor, people like the fact that they feel their group is valuable, appreciated, has a purpose, wants to grow. Um, so there are ways like that I think you can um you can help yourself and be proactive about it. The flip side, and I talk about this in my book, so I don't want to go into detail um here, but it is also as an organization, if you really want to take your DEI seriously, you need to understand that there are certain things you need to do for minority groups to allow them to feel comfortable in the environment and make it easier for them to join those groups, to talk to their fellow colleagues, to be more open, to be there. If, you know, people keep saying you'll bring your full self into the workplace. I still think that's a very difficult thing for certain people to do. So, how as an organization and as a leadership team can you make the playing field a lot fairer and a lot more equal? And that then makes it a much easier process for people who are struggling to network.

Psychological Safety And Reverse Mentoring

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yes, definitely. And uh you're so right on um leadership being mindful of that and and making an effort. There are some companies who they think it's gonna happen by magic and that those people are just gonna feel um, you know, welcomed and and and wanting to bring their full self to work all the time, and nothing actually has been done to encourage that as well. And the really good companies, the leadership they notice, and then they uh make sure that that is knitted into the culture um of everybody working there, and they're the people uh the companies that you notice retain people a lot longer um rather than this high turnover at companies and people come through and think, oh, this isn't for me. Um I I spoke to a woman recently on here um about psychological safety, which actually was something that I I hadn't even thought of, and and that that feeling of psychological safety in the workplace and actually how you feel going to work every day, whether or not you feel you can speak up in meetings or can't speak up in meetings, and they're the places that you you know jump ship um quickly. Although, speaking to you working on a way you worked on the trade floor, did you have that psychological safety? Um no.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

But um, well, I don't know. I I I did, you know, as I said, I I loved working closely with traders. I found them the smartest, the good traders, um, were really some of the smartest people I've ever worked with. Some of the junior ones who were very um they let the money go to their heads quite quickly, and some of them hadn't been trained properly in how to behave, how to talk to other people, um, and that money isn't just isn't everything, you know, uh, you still have to have respect for people, were not so not so great, but you know, you have to deal with them. But the the good traders who'd been around for a while, you know, because as traders, you're already trading on your reputation. No one's going to want to do a deal with you or help you out on a deal if they don't trust you. Um so you you need to really build that that kind of um, I guess, psychological safety as well, you know, amongst your peers and amongst those people who are there to support you in a company. So um, so yeah, and and and going back to what you were saying about, you know, um networking, and there is this um sort of concept of reverse mentoring. Uh and I think uh, and I know at BP uh that was being done to a certain extent, and that's really, I think, where a lot of leaders started to understand, okay, this was not a challenge for me. This is not something I ever could conceive of as being difficult. But speaking to my reverse mentee, I realized that this person is struggling for all these reasons and all these barriers they they they feel they have in the workplace that I wasn't even aware of. So it's getting to know, you know, if you're sitting in an ivory tower as a leadership team, you're never going to change things. And as you said, you're not going to retain your staff because the atmosphere's, the environment's just not going to be healthy. And bottom line, um, even if you don't care about your people, you should be caring about your profits. And we know all the statistics on diversity, inclusion, particularly making people feel psychologically safe and comfortable and enjoying being in the workplace and how that can drive your profits up. So um it's got so many other add-ons uh to it that it just doesn't make sense not to be more aware of that and make your your work environment um conducive for all of those other good things.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yes, definitely, yeah. And it does it does take more than just thinking, oh, we've launched uh a channel on Teams and got all of our ladies in there.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Um Exactly, exactly.

Advice For Women In Male Spaces

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Um so for women navigating ambitious careers then, especially in a male-dominated um industry, uh what's one piece of advice that you wish you had been given much earlier on?

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Um I would say don't take things so personally. And I write about this a little bit in the book. I think as women, and I do hate to say this, but I do think as a generalism, it's true. We tend to internalize things a lot more than men. Men seem to be able to really, and I always compare it to the you know, Taylor Swift's Shake It Off song. They manage to do this. That they're literally flucks shaking their feathers off, or peacocks, I might say. Um women, you know, we tend to internalize, we tend to ruminate a little bit more on things and worry, have we offended? What have we done? When actually we all know that there are games that are played in certain corporate environments. And had I been aware of those uh games, if you like, earlier in my career, I probably would have taken things a lot less personally and been able to write things out a little easier than I did at the time. But again, that does come with experience. Um so yeah, I think I think I think also just being true to yourself, especially, you know, I go back to trading, but you know, with trading, there are a lot of gray areas. And if you can keep your integrity and sort of back yourself uh when others are losing their minds sometimes in the heat of the moment, in the stress of the that I think is a very valuable tool to have throughout your career.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yes, definitely, yeah. And I think uh with that networking of mentors, um, how much that can help you in that moment, you think if I have to keep my integrity in work, but I could go off and I can share that experience with somebody externally at least, even to talk it through and ask, you know, have you ever been in that situation? How did you deal with that? But almost as an outlet sometimes of that happening.

Your Personal Boardroom Of Advisors

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Yeah, it's vital. And and people describe it as building your own personal boardroom, and it's very true. You know, each person in a boardroom has their function, has their specialism, their expertise. So in your own personal boardroom, you need to have the people that you can just go and have a coffee with or a drink after work or whatever, and just let it all out and know that that's a safe space. Because uh, you know, sometimes in in stressful situations and and long deals and where you're working long hours and you're not necessarily thinking rationally sometimes, you know, you need to have a sounding board and somebody to just sort of offload that you can also be there, be their sounding board at some point as well. And knowing that that, as you said, is not going to go any further in the in the company. So that's vital. And then you you know, you have all your other people in the boardroom who are, you know, again, your cheerleaders, the ones who challenge you, who ask those tricky questions because they've got your back. They're doing it because they know, let's say, you're going for a promotion and an interview process, they're asking you those questions because they want you to be as prepared as you can be for the tricky questions that come along. Um, so picking those people, and you can adjust them, you know, throughout my career, I've kind of, you know, it sounds a bit, um, it sounds a bit ruthless, but it wasn't done in that way. You know, you can slot people in and out uh as and when, depending on your situation. But to have your your your boardroom of trusted advisors, if you like, um, is critical.

Final Thanks And Where To Find The Book

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Yes, yes, I couldn't agree more. Um I could keep talking to you about this subject. Okay, um, because I could have a uh a whole other um uh uh host of questions to ask you. Um, but we are already out of time, I'm afraid. So it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us. We're going to um share a link with our wonderful listeners on where to find your book. Um so everybody please do go and check that out. But Natalie, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. And to everybody listening, as always, thank you for joining us, and we hope to see you again next time.