Innovation and why it will be critical in 2026

In a business world defined by uncertainty, fierce competition, and rising expectations from every stakeholder, innovation is no longer a “nice to have” — it’s a survival skill. In fact, innovation-driven economic growth is now so central to global progress that it was recognised by the 2025 Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences.

But while leaders agree that innovation matters, many still struggle with the same question: how do we actually do it?

In this episode, we’re joined by Barbara Salopek, leading innovation strategist, academic, and author of Future-Fit Innovation. Barbara works with organisations around the world to transform innovation from an abstract buzzword into a practical, repeatable capability that drives lasting growth.

Together, we explore what innovation really means in today’s volatile landscape, why psychological safety is the oxygen of creative cultures, and how leaders can build innovation systems that work in any industry — not just tech. If you’re serious about future-proofing your organisation, this conversation will change how you think about innovation.

SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.

Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.

Transcript

Why Innovation Matters Now

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Katie Bakesman, the Managing Director at Seatan Code, and today we're discussing innovation and why it will be critical. I've got the fabulous Barbara Celopek, leading innovation strategist and author of Future Fit Innovation with me today. We're going to explore what innovation really means in today's volatile landscape, why psychological safety is the oxygen of creative cultures, and how leaders can build innovation systems that work in any any industry, not just tech. Welcome Barbara.

Barbara’s Story And Career Path

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Lovely to have you on here. Hi, hi. Well uh thank you very much, and I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for the invitation. It is a pleasure to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

There is so much that we want to unpick with you today. Could we get started with a bit of background about you, please?

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Well, what shall I say? I have more than 20 years of working experience uh working with innovation in this or that way. Uh, but uh this year is also 20 years since I moved to Norway. I'm originally from Croatia. Uh, and I had a big you know desire one day I will be a leader, so I want to move abroad and have experience either studying on living or uh working. So I applied for the master degree here in Bergen and came here and then and then liked it and told my boyfriend, now husband, you have to come, I'm not coming back. So he joined. Um, and I have been living in Croatia, Norway, US, Germany, and I speak fluently uh Croatian, English, German, Norwegian is my third foreign language. So um gosh. Yes, and I have a double master degree in business. Uh, and I always love technology, and I know the that your listeners are a tech uh woman, and I think deep inside me, uh, that's the one of the small things that I regret in life not choosing technology as my uh as my major. So um, I really love technology and I envy all those women that are working with that.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

There is always time. We get asked that a lot on webinars. Is it too late? What if I want to do this now? There is always time to find yourself falling into the tech industry. Um, so never say never. But what is life like in Norway to have kept you there for such a long time?

Innovation Means Repeatable Value

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Well, uh, as I said, I started studying, uh, doing the double master's degree, and then I got a job while I was studying, and then I stayed. I was working with the technology transfer office here in Bergen, helping uh research to get commercialized, to get become innovations. Uh, and it was very interesting. I worked with many different industries from medical, um, marine, aquaculture, IT, and then after working there for almost 10 years, I started my own company, Vinco Innovation. Uh, it's innovation consulting um uh company, and I love helping organizations uh on being innovative and creating a truly innovation environment in their organizations in order to sustain long, like to live long and be on the market as for a long period of time. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

And we're gonna pick into um innovation a little bit today, um, because it's it's talked about constantly, yet it often feels vague or intangible. So, how do you define innovation in a way that leaders can actually act on?

SPEAKER_00 3:25

That's excellent, excellent question. And it's true, everyone talks about innovation, and everything is innovation. Uh, and that's why I guess it's such a common uh phrase to use or buzzword. Um, but innovation, how I see it, it's not ideas, it's the ability to turn those ideas, the uncertainty, into value and do that repeatedly over a certain time. So um ideas, we come up with ideas, but those ideas don't have value if you don't translate them into something tangible, if they don't become a new process, new business model, new uh product or service. Um, so I define innovation actually as capability, not a single event or not an accidental event that makes a breakthrough innovation. So I define it uh that includes both the output that comes out uh as a result of innovation process, but also as the as the capability, uh, the culture you have. You have to have certain environment in the in the company so that innovation really becomes your strength. Um, uh it's structured ability of an organization to identify opportunities and then experiment with them, uh learn from those experiments and turn those insights into a value. Either they continue, either they make, as I said, new product, new service, new process or new business model. So all that that creates value and can be used at the end, then it's innovation. Because if it doesn't have value, then it's just creativity and ideas. So um so people tell me often, oh Barbara, you work with innovation, you must have many ideas. Or managers ask themselves, we have enough ideas. But it's not about having enough ideas, it's about having conditions that allow those ideas to be evaluated properly, to emerge, to be tested, to be the um also um uh said no to those. It's equally important to said no to ideas as to develop them and then also uh define those that will be implemented. So um it should become an actionable when leaders stop asking people to be innovative. It's it's not it's not a pizza that you order. Uh so it has to be an environment uh where uh innovation naturally comes on all levels throughout the whole organization, not just on innovation or product development department. It has to be inclusive for everyone in the company and it has to come natural to the to them. And so that's that's my mission or vision to work with.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, that's that's such a great way of describing that because some companies, especially on their website, they'll say that you know that it's their whole DNA is you know innovation and um and you and you get in is going to be like great ideas. But actually some companies and and and I think we've all been through them probably at one point, you get in and that company doesn't actually it's not agile enough to move fast enough to implement those ideas. So like you said, it's great having ideas and you might be on that team that's like, yeah, we come up with a load of ideas. And actually by the end of the year, feel like I've achieved nothing because as a company we couldn't actually execute anything and we couldn't move fast enough. Um so there is a balance there. You you're absolutely right. The ideas have to turn into something. Um I don't know if that also helps with retaining stuff though, because I wasn't mentioned the company, but I was at a company and it was all meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings, and um nothing happening and it is soul destroying when you think I'm not gonna move forward here, nothing will actually get through. So um I actually ended up leaving, but um it it must help with people in terms of their um you know to stay insane at work as well. At least we achieve a lot.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah, and sometimes uh they have meetings just for the sake to look busy, busy, yes, yes, to look busy and to look important. Oh, I'm so busy, I don't have time, so I'm important. But then yeah, those meet uh those meetings was the purpose, like yes, how are you actually moving forward?

Uncertainty Demands Testing Cultures

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Absolutely. Um so you often say that the only certainty is uncertainty, which I love. Um why does that make a culture of innovation absolutely critical for organizations heading into 2026 and beyond?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Well, uncertainty was always here, whatever we do in our lives, and just sometimes it's a much bigger uh percentage, and sometimes it's much smaller or much more risky. Um, but what happens now in the last years with technological advancements, I think it's that um the speed of uncertainty and everything that happens with it, it comes to a much faster uh velocity. Uh and there is also pressure, we have to be very effective, and uh um so those two forces are increasing this uncertainty element, I would say, nowadays, and it makes it um and we have to, in a way, it's in also in our nature. If we would be living in a in a in a woods, right? Uh the animals they always have this uncertainty that can be eaten by other animals. So uncertainty is always there. We shouldn't be, on the other hand, so surprised by it, we should accept it, this is it. But then, but this I think technological advances are making extra pressure because it's so much more closer to us than it was ever before. Um, and then uh if you have organizations when there is a culture that understands this and they have the tools, uh mechanisms that can uh manage those situations, then they will be much more resilient with those uncertainties. Um, for example, um, if the new technology comes and the situ uh like uh what happened to Nokia and Kodak, and they have been no, they weren't been reflective what's happening around them. But you have to be reflective, and and then you can maybe, and you have to also not only reflect, but also test those things that are happening around you. So you have Chat GPT, so you should be testing it. Yeah. You should say the people in your organization is test it, but be careful of this and this and this.

unknown 9:45

Yeah.

Failure, Confidence, And First Testers

SPEAKER_00 9:46

And uh you shouldn't be saying, oh no, this is not about us, we are not going to put it in, it's too much the data will leak, or this um uh same with TikTok, like all our phones, they have all our information, and then having one app more or less, it's not going to change that. Some organizations have all our data. So, but allowing them to test and have embrace those uh uncertainties, we will learn about them and we will create new competences and we will be much more able to manage them then. But like not going, of course, blindly into things, but you have to, and you always in a company you have people who like to test. So create them first, let them be your, you know, let like there is as, for example, me, as I said, I like technology, and I liked oh new app came, let me test it. Uh, you can try you can try this um this for a new uh new app for something else, and I like to test it. So use those people to be the first tester to give you response, and they usually are much more literate, uh literate when it comes to technology, and then they can tell you, okay, but be careful about this before we go big numbers. We have to take care of this. You should maybe check out, maybe we should pay so we we don't share the data. So then it's it makes it much more bearable and much more resilient for organizations when you have this attitude than it's simply, oh no, we don't do that here. Yeah, uncertainty is going to happen anyway.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Exactly. And I found as well that um you you're so right on um people that like to test environments where you're allowed to test are so important as well, because there are certain people that um thrive in those environments. They um we do it here, we're like, well, we'll test something, we'll check out the data if it didn't work, we'll put it to bed, try something else. And and we really encourage that um uh that that feeling of we'll we'll we're building as we go, you know. It's not all we know everything's gonna happen, we we test. Um but that also creates uh an environment where it's okay to fail as well. I was at an American company where I I learned that. And being in an environment where you can try and it's okay to fail and just try again. Actually, I looking back, I didn't realize what an effect that company had on me and my confidence and which companies I'd want to go to next, and those that could innovate really fast, um, because then you quickly find yourself in an environment where you're like, no, this isn't this isn't for me. We're not going to be testing. Um, this to me is gonna seem quite boring. Um you're also right, the testers. Um, they they are uh there is a certain type of person out there that likes that environment.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah, that was when I was uh uh reading uh certificate articles for the the book Future Fit Innovation, and that one of the articles when I found out this that there are certain personalities that they like to question things and test, and it's like they're not doing this to make things difficult, it's just part of their that's like, yeah, you should, and then and we usually like to judge, especially if they are questioning Satus quo or asking too many questions. We like to label them in a certain way, instead of saying, that's this type of personality, we should actually appreciate it because they are first out there, they are they are first triers who are trying things and and experimenting. So um, and I think for a leader it's important to know uh that those persons exist in this way and why they exist and how, then it's much easier to manage and like not stopping them, not not creating obstacles for them, but actually allowing them to be who they are when we are talking about inclusion. And another thing also that you mentioned that I wanted yes, about um about uh failure and how much confidence this gave to you. And and that's exactly because when I started teaching at Bay, um we were in one of the first workshops, and then they said, Oh yeah, um, this colleague from Oslo, she tried this and that, and she failed. And please do try things and you will fail, but you will learn. And I was like, Thank you. It gives so much confidence, it gave you so much, not confidence, but trust, or I don't know what to call it. It's you were not afraid to test. Even if you fail, you know they will they will say, Okay, fine, try something else. So you were like, it's a completely different environment and your attitudes toward work when you're suddenly not afraid.

Vulnerability Looks Different By Culture

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yes, you will go on, yeah, you will put forward those ideas, is the other thing because if you did fail in in the past, you'd be sitting in a meeting thinking, uh, I have a really good idea, but I'm not gonna put it forward. So, yes, somebody that has said to you, you know what, it it's okay that we we tried that um and it just didn't work out, and um, we won't do it again. Um, but at least we've figured out you know what works and what doesn't work, um can really that can make such a difference um even years later. And it was something I hadn't noticed until several jobs later that actually it was that company that had um put me in that mindset. Um I did find at the time um I had I had noticed that um UK companies uh we can talk ourselves about things. So I'd really appreciate being in an American company at the time because they had the attitude of trying, you know, it doesn't matter if you fell in fine. Um I had previously come from a UK company where I had found um you know they they didn't want you to to know about things or get involved in things and test things. And it was almost like in some companies in the UK you come up with an idea and you then you come up with a a list of why you shouldn't do those those things and we talk ourselves out of it. So it was such a breath of fresh air to be in a different culture and a different type of company, um, because that for me was you know you could really find your feet. Um, but it I mean you personally you've you know lived all over the world. Did you find that in the US? Do you know totally different kind of mindset to business and trying to use it?

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Well, that's as you say, um uh when I was in the US, I was 17, and I remember we were in uh ice cream shop, and then I was going for what vanilla or chocolate, and then my cousin was like, you should try something more, something more, something more interesting than those two. And I was like, and that was like a moment, yeah. Why why I'm stuck to the the old ones? That was the moment, and and I told them but now before Christmas how how this had a great impact on me. Like, what does it cost you to change to try some new flavor? Like, like it's the whole thing, but we like to live in our boxes, and especially you know, Croatia is very much everything should be perfect and you should do it like this, and there is like you should not show your uh uh that you're vulnerable. That was at least when I was living, now has been 20 years, maybe things change. Um, so vulnerability was the negative, and also actually the research shows that when we will maybe talk uh later about psychological safety, but psychological safety is that you can fail, but in high um hierarchical structures, uh uh high power structures, that can be um confusing for the environment. If you if you want to achieve psychological safety and you as a leader show that you are actually vulnerable, they will not take you seriously. So while we talk about psychological safety a lot, you should be vulnerable, you should uh but that doesn't work in all environments. Yes. So that's also important to know and to be aware. So uh and all to take it much more slower pace, maybe if you are an environment that actually doesn't approve as a culture that that you should be vulnerable. But for example, in Norway it's completely normal to be well vulnerable, and Croatia isn't completely, it was on the different spectrum, I would say.

A Three-Level Innovation Framework

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Ah, that's super interesting. Yeah, even being aware of that, which is not something you would notice in your first job, but you might notice as you go through. Um I love that. Um you also you've developed a a three-level framework for innovation. Can you walk us through it and explain why so many organizations get stuck at just one level?

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Well, um a wonderful question again, because that was the motivation for writing the book. Because I I saw companies, first it was business model calmers, everyone was crazy about this. We have this and we will have all ideas succeed. And then I have the coffee shop near the where we had the office, and it went bankrupt once, and then the new one came and went bankrupt twice. And I was like, Yeah, but if you do the business model canvas on them, everything was in place. So it cannot be just one thing. Uh and then it came design thinking, you know, and everyone was crazy about that. And I'm like, you can have the best innovation processes, the best design thinking. But if the people are not owing that, if people are not owing the innovation, innovativeness, the culture that has to be there, like that means they are afraid to speak up, they're afraid to experiment, they're afraid if they make a mistake, what will happen to them? Uh, they are afraid to come up with ideas because they are afraid that someone will laugh at them. They are afraid to comment on the ideas. Maybe they come up, but they don't, you know, what will they, what will people around them think if they say this, comment or other. So not like you can have the best innovation products in the world, but it will not work if you don't have the environment, the people, the culture. Uh and then I was looking, and everyone talks about you should do this or you should do that. But no one talks about which barriers you will have on the way there. Yeah. Right? And then I was like, let's see which barriers we have on the individual level, and that's that, oh, I'm not creative. Don't like we should we should be more innovative. Now we all have to be creative. Oh no, no, no, no, that's not me. I'm not there. So that's the first thing that people are afraid and they don't think they believe in their creativity. But everyone is creative, we all are creative, we all like just we're not artistic. That's two different things. Being artistic is one part of creativity. And then also the another obstacle uh level on the individual level is functional fixiness. The more we learn about something, uh, and or when we learn about the function of a subject or object, uh, we stick to that. We cannot, it's very difficult for us to imagine that object to be used for something else, and that's functional fixiness. And it's the research shows that all uh innovation there managed to overcome this obstacle of they they manage to think outside. And the phone, the iPhone is the perfect example because the phones were first to talk and it was the keyboard, and now they are our small TV sets that we have. It's it's completely auxiliary. The the the talking is completely auxiliary function of the phone. Um, so maybe it shouldn't be called phone anymore. TVs that we can call each other. Um so that's that's one level. So if you're a leader and want to have your company innovative, you have to understand those things, how people what what the what um what are the barriers in front of us and help the your team to overcome those. And then we go on the team, individuals make teams, right? And then on team level, everyone said you should be uh you should have uh diversity. Yes, you should have diversity, and it's important to have a diversity because then you have better inputs, more perspectives on the subject, than if you have people all cheering for the same football camp, went to the same school, you know, uh same uh gender, then they all look at the things in the same way. But the world, like we are all uh we don't have one shoe size, right? One average shoe size that fits, that should fit or not fit everyone else who doesn't have 35.39.5, right? We have shoe size for all different and then also it should be with all other services as well. We should be more inclusive in order to expand our market. Customer segments, potential markets we can enter. But then having diversity doesn't mean it will work if people don't feel psychological safe. So you have to also work on that. And then when we move to organizational level, we have technological advancements and sustainability that also put a lot of pressure on organizations and the leaders because it happens so fast and it can be regulatory pressure. And you have to juggle all that. And so I was explaining all those elements in the book and how you can make how you can overcome those in order to enable the organization to be a little bit more innovative than just by adopting one framework and then wondering why it didn't work.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah. I I you know what you everything you when you got to point three, I was like, oh my gosh, this is what I was thinking because that psychological safety in diversity, it was reminding me of our partners here at Sheikang Coach. So our partners, they work with us because they want to diversify their um workforces and they want to share what it's like to work there. Um and they they want that diversity, they want the diversity of opinions in meetings. But you're so right, if you don't have psychological safety, you're not going to speak up in those meetings. So even if you do employ a diverse workforce, they're not going to feel safe to share that diverse voice within that meeting anyway. And there is something that I say on here a lot, someone said it on the first episode of Spilling the T and it was about um having a Slack channel. So when people Yeah, so women in tech groups, they go, We have a channel where we share our news. We have a group where we put all of our women in tech news in that channel, whether it's on Teams or in Slack or w wherever they put it. Um but then it's yeah, but how do you actually feel when you come to work every day? It's not a case of we have a group where we can drop all of our women in tech things and what we're doing, but how do you actually feel when you come to work every day? Um, and whether or not you feel like your company cares about you, whether you can speak up is if something is wrong. Um, but how lovely that you can drop things in a group. It's a lot more than that.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

And when we are uh talking about speaking up, uh there was an article that I included in the book, and I loved it because it was so much me. And it says that uh about speaking up and staying silent, we stay silent when we know that we cannot change something. And we speak up, we voice when we believe that it can change something.

unknown 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

So if you have psychological safety not in the place, if you don't feel safe that actually you can change something or you will be appreciated, you will stay silent. But if you have an environment when people actually think that it could change something, then they will voice. It is worth speaking up for.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Yeah. But I hadn't even thought of that. And you're probably doing that um unconsciously as well. Waiting for the case.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

I know because I know I I had once we had the project and then we had a conflict, and I was like, Oh, we need to address this, and we have to speak up and we have to talk to the uh financial mechanism. And and the partner from Wollison was like, Barbara, what do you hope to achieve? And I was like, change for the better. And I always go with this. I'm always, you know, I I I'm voicing too much because I always think we should say so we can change it for the better. But it does not work always this way.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

I want to do that. Not no, not always. I always find that in tech as well, that people so this podcast has started to bust a lot of myths about what it's like to work in tech, that you have to be highly technical, you have to have a computer science degree. Um, and people have that misconception that you know you might come into tech, everybody speaks in acronyms, and you have to go away and Google things because you don't understand what people are saying. And in our community, we try and share that that's okay if that's happening, and that everybody is having that feeling sometimes, that imposter syndrome sometimes, but that is not every single job in tech, and that you know, you don't have to be sitting there thinking, I can't speak up. I don't feel like I feel safe to speak up in in this meeting, um, because you have to be highly technical to come into tech. And um, it is that psychological safety feeling of, you know, am I good enough to to come into the tech industry? Um, and we always try and bust that me if you you know you don't have to be a coder, you should have to be really good at math, you know, all of those things.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

That's that's that's a wonderful thing that you're working with. I never thought about it. I think that's that's great, like like not speaking up because you're afraid that you're not good enough. That's happens a lot in tech. It's good that that you that you saw it, that you detected it and and working with it.

Psychological Safety As Innovation Oxygen

SPEAKER_01 26:49

I think that's yes, and to encourage more people to just come in and try is the thing. And then a lot of you know our community, so we encourage our community to come to our hackathons and say, just give it a try. You know, this you you can fail, it doesn't matter, it's just a fun day. But sometimes if you if you haven't been in that environment where you can try something, you don't actually realize that you are good at something, um, and it doesn't have to be technical, you don't have to code, for instance. Um, and we've touched upon psychological safety um a few times already, um, and it is a recurring theme in your work. Uh why do you describe it as the oxygen of innovation and what happens when it's missing?

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Well, we as we said like earlier, we touched it a little bit in a different context already. Uh because people will stay silent, they will not talk. And then and if they don't talk, we don't we don't do, we don't do change things, nothing is happening, everything is done by default, uh uh and and we are just continuing doing what we have been always doing. So there is no improvements, nothing. And and then then slowly you die, you know, you come to the so mature level, you know, the ask her, and then then it's then some other comes and they will overtake you. So so uh and it's so important that uh people feel safe to ask questions, as we said, that there are some people that are much more curious, like that they they they dare to ask a little bit more, so not to perceive them as difficult, but that's just the way they are and actually appreciate those things. Uh that people start to challenge ideas and that it's okay to admit uncertainty and share the uh the earlier imperfect thinking. So so because all this can spark discussions, can spark the new connections, because innovation happens when we the knowledge that we have that we can combine in new ways and that create the new things that uh that uh scientific innovator, or and everyone has scientific innovation in what they are doing, right? You have been a plumber for 20 years, you know everything about it. And when you come to the new house, something different is there, but you have so much deep knowledge that you can do something that will work, and that's creativity and that's innovation, right? It doesn't have to do anything with a picture, with uh, with uh, with a painting, with uh with the music. It has to do with your knowledge that you can combine in a new ways and create something new, which creates and bring about change at that house, for instance.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

You know you're confident enough that you can bring about that change. Yeah, and you think.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

If you want to have all those things, then nothing will happen.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Exactly. There are some companies that are very good at retaining their people as well. I I remember talking um I was at an event in the States and it was um uh for an IBM event, and I remember everybody that I spoke to there had been there like 40 years plus. I was like, how are certain companies doing this? But like you said, they're in that environment where they know they can bring about change because the amount of change that has happened in the industry in like the last 40 years, to keep people that long, they must have been in that environment where you you know that if you do speak up, you can bring about change. Um, instead of people thinking, I'll just do a bare minimum of one year at least that looks good on my CV, and then I'll go and find somewhere else, um, which isn't good for the company, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Or for example, I know the uh companies where they say, I don't want any negative news in this meeting.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

I get that so we can't all be negative, so nobody's saying anything negative. So then like then it just like false positivity. Like it doesn't have to be negative, it has to be this and this, this happens. Let's discuss with the aim to improve it. Like, like let's find a solution. Everyone makes mistakes. You didn't sleep well this night, so you made an or you send an email with uh with uh with fail information, wrong information. Everyone has this. You have small kids, or your mom died, or your father died, or you break up, or you're divorcing. I I don't know. Everyone will make mistakes. Yeah, and just pretending they're not there is not making them go away.

Hustle Culture Quietly Kills Creativity

SPEAKER_01 31:12

We're not gonna talk about that in this meeting. It's fine, nothing bad happened. And it is like burying your head in the sand and just moving forward and having not addressed it, um, yeah, not not at all helpful. Um I so there's a lot of debate around hustle culture, long hours, uh, and models like Silicon Valley's 996. Are these approaches helping innovation or are they quietly killing it?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

I think they're killing it absolutely. I have been working uh um in Croatia 7 to 7 for some time. And first it killed, you know, my it killed me physically because you know I have not been doing sleeping well, I haven't been running, so my body was, and you know, it says um menesana or corporisano, when you have the health body, you have the health brain. But uh but from the business perspective, imagine the Formula One pit or imagine ER, where the uh where um patient just came from the street, it was a car accident, and now you tell the doctors innovate while you are fixing the person. Like are you crazy? Like, think about these others, how we should do this better next time. Like this is what you are asking when you ask people to work nine nine to nine, six days a week. Like this is exactly that. And of course they can do that for a week, maybe two, but you also deplete your resources, like you also get tired and you get saturated from all this, and then the also the quality of output is not going to be good as it would be if you arrested. So, um yeah, so I I I have very balanced working days. I work a lot still. I work also on the weekends and I have my own company, so you don't, but I am very, very conscious about having not too many hours, having normal sleep, having exercises. Um because that gives you then a balance, and then you can be much more creative and innovative, I think. And much much better brain, you know, like brain capacity to do cognitive thinking, I would say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah. I uh I I couldn't agree more. Um, and I think that goes I I love your example there with the doctor. It's exactly uh uh what what that is because it goes back to that psychological safety as well, to be able to set the boundaries at work, that I'm being pushed too hard, or I need to set those boundaries because I might have moved into a different um phase of my life where I've now back from Matt Leave and I need to set some boundaries um for children or but again that's being in an environment where you feel safe enough to to voice that. And again, if people don't have that, they they leave because they're feeling like I'm just gonna get pushed and pushed and pushed um and worked and worked and now I can't um innovate and also enjoy my job as well because it that we always have um that feeling here of we like that when we look back on the year, so much has happened and changed and how we've evolved. Because if you're at a company where you do look back and all you've done is just burnt yourself out and you've been so bogged down in your day-to-day and nothing has changed, um it's just that's not that's not fun. Nobody wants to be at that.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Yeah, yeah. And if you're in constant panic mode, so to say, because you're constantly like, oh, I have to deliver, I have to deliver, I have to work, I don't work. So you cannot think clearly. Yeah, and and like you get like your head is not it cannot breathe.

unknown 34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

To also resonate what's happening, and then and then it's what uh like also when I was writing the book, I was working the whole week, then on the weekends I would wake up early at six, and then I was the whole weekend I would be working with the with the book, and then on Monday I would be working again. And I felt so tired on Monday. And you have to take breaks because then you can come up, and then but the brain will still work in the backyard, in the back of it, you know, and then suddenly the things will come together because like when you are okay, now now think out of the box, now think of the box. And if you're hearing that, and like from nine to nine, six days in a week, it doesn't make you think out of the box. But if you have been working, you went for a walk, you are looking how the birds are singing, you enjoy the uh the woods and everything, and then suddenly an idea pops up. Oh, I should do also this. Yes, like you like, and I think those moments happen much more often when you're in this table balanced than when you are in this panic phase.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Yes, uh, yeah, I couldn't agree more on that. I have um a volunteering role that I do at the weekend, and that is where my mind clears, and I tend to have ideas during that that time, yeah, and which I think my team hates because I'll come back and be like, I had an idea. Um, but you're so right, that's when everything starts to become clear, rather than you're in panic mode every day and somebody just turns around and says to you, What's in your locker? And you're like, nothing, I've got nothing.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Because I think you have to be in the brain process it by itself without you pressing it, so and the you know, innovation is energy, not effort, not panic.

Innovation Beyond Tech Plus AI Ethics

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Yes, exactly. Um many leaders assume that innovation it only applies to tech companies or startups. Um, do move very fast, obviously. Um what would you say to organizations in more traditional industries that think innovation isn't for them?

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Yeah, so what's the traditional? Um like diary, um, bread, uh, bakery, but they all come with also new things, they come up with a new recipe. So so I don't think um we like to also think that innovation, I mean startup and tech, but innovation is everywhere in all fields. We cannot say uh yeah, and I don't like when they equal innovation to technical developments, because technical developments, if they're not used, they are not innovation either. So uh and those are if you call it traditional or uh or some other industries that uh in order to stay relevant on the market, they have to improve because consumer demands change and they improve, they involve, and they want new things, and suddenly people don't want to eat meat, so you have to think what which kind of burger are you going to make now? Or suddenly people don't want to drink alcohol so much as they did before. So, what are you going to bankrupt or are you going to produce non-alcoholic champagne or nor alcoholic wine? That's additional industry if you want it like that. So if you want to sustain on the market in the long run, no matter which industry, you have to observe what's happening around you and adapt and come up with the new solutions. Yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

I can agree more. And and um that again takes a certain person, like you said, with the testers, the diversity on your team, um, is so important because it will be people that will be saying, Yes, have you noticed that people are drinking less alcohol? How are we going to get around this? And to have that diversity on your team for somebody to notice that um as well and to put that forward, um, again takes a very different person compared to other people that are doing, you know, the everyday and are doing great things and making sure the company um functions as well. Um, it can be very hard to innovate in tech because we've had some community members on here say things like when you are um constantly challenged as well with learning, you have to learn so much and you have to be that type of person that is always willing to um keep learning, like way past university in tech to keep up to date. So um doing that plus trying to innovate and and be in a job and everything else that comes with it, it can actually be quite overwhelming in tech as well.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

It is, and I was also like thinking, you know, um, like we are quite young, you know, and it and so much happened like since 2020, and we are learning. Now you now we were we were using Excel and and PowerPoint. Do you use PowerPoint? Almost no. I use Kanwa and then this new then Chat GPT came, then you use Chat GPT, then some other like we're conceived. And I'm like, I'm tired as well sometimes. Yeah, and you're very curious. I love to learn, but it's like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Too much, it's too much sometimes, and you have to keep up with that, even if you're not using it yourself. So our hackathons, we actually had a discussion um only this week about AI and whether or not we we are going to allow it to be used at our hackathons, or is it actually considered as cheating? It's okay for people to check their code, but we don't want them to come up with their entire project um using AI. So even things like that, we're like actually uh since our last hack, we hadn't even thought of that. You know, so you do have to keep up with um things that are going on, at least bare minimum.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

And one example about technology and whether that is innovation. I was just reading a book and and I love the example. So uh they did a research here in Norway. Uh they were using IE uh to scan the documents from the patients in uh before the surgery in order to detect in a second if the patient is allergic to some of the substance they the patient will be given during the operation. So they can and it worked fantastically. But it cannot be used because there is so much private data in it, and they have to kill it. Oh no. Oh gosh. Yeah. And also because there was so much data and it was collected precisely for that research. And GDPR says that uh you can collect for a certain purpose, but if the um the people didn't say yes to other purposes, you cannot use it for other purposes. So it could only be used for the research and developing something like for the use as a service, it apparently was too complicated and too much GDPR issues. So now we have technical advancement that cannot be innovation. That can't be, yeah. Oh my gosh. Or there was another example in the book. Uh uh, she's talking about the guy who has been made um recruitment algorithm, uh, and then he find out that uh uh that is biased towards men, of course, because um, and then the question, the moral question, ethical question was does he report that? So they have additional months to um uh to adjust it, to make it you know the right, or he doesn't. And then if he goes to the management, the management says, if we don't do it, the competitor is doing it and they are killing us and they are doing it biased anyway. And they are losing the market in competition. So it's so much things about technology that we are not thinking that you know that it's that we are thinking through one layer, the same as it with innovation, one layer, do the design thinking, you are done. But it's not that simple.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Yes, especially in things like recruitment, in that way, it is um that data is fed in by a person and it can be biased in so many different ways.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Um, and the conversations around that and I AI at the moment, um, and what we're actually feeding it and what especially because they did uh even if you move out the gender according to the data, it still can detect whether it's a male or female, and it can and it still enhances the biases. So it's not it's not so one-layered as we think.

Final Takeaways And Book Link

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Yes, exactly. Um Barbara, I can keep picking your brain on this topic um for a lot lot longer, but we are already out of time, I'm afraid. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you about innovation today. So thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Thank you for inviting uh inviting me and allow your podcast, and I will continue listening it.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Thank you very much. We're gonna include a link to your book as well for our listeners and our community. Um so everybody listening, please go and check that out. We will drop it in our community as well. Um and to everybody listening, as always, thank you for joining us. And we hope to see you again next time.