AI & Recruitment – Myths, CV Hacks & What Really Happens Behind the Scenes

In this episode, we’re joined by N Brown Group’s Yasmin Kobbekaduwe, Aaron Tsang, and Stacey Hudson to unpack one of the most talked-about topics in hiring right now: AI in recruitment.

There’s a growing concern that AI filters are silently rejecting CVs before a human ever sees them — particularly impacting underrepresented groups, including women in tech. Our guests share how recruitment works at N Brown Group, where they’ve made a conscious decision not to use AI to filter out candidates. We also explore how this compares to the wider tech industry, where many organisations are integrating AI into their hiring processes. 

In addition, we dive into the rise of candidates using AI tools to write their CVs and applications. When is it helpful? When does it backfire? And what are the biggest mistakes recruiters are spotting instantly?

Whether you’re actively job hunting, pivoting into tech, or simply curious about how AI is reshaping hiring, this episode is packed with practical advice, honest insights, and real talk from someone who’s seen it all.

SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.

Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.

Transcript

Welcome And Why AI Feels Scary

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayle Batesman, the Managing Director at CCAN Code, and today we're discussing AI and recruitment, Smiths, CVs, hacks, and what really happens behind the scenes. I'm joined by three incredible people today. I'm very lucky to have three guests from the Enram group. I have Yasmin, Aaron, and Stacy, and they're here to unpack one of the most talked-about topics in hiring right now: AI recruitment. There's a growing concern that AI filters are silently rejecting CVs before a human ever sees them. And this is particularly impacting unrepresented groups, including women in tech. So we're going to unpack this topic today with some practical advice, honest insights, and real talk from the people who have literally seen it all. So welcome all three of you. Thank you so much for coming on, spilling the tea, and having a chat with us today. We'd love to start with some intros. Stacey, let's start with you.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Hello, it's good to be back. So I've worked for M Brown for just over eight years now. So I started off supporting our marketing and brand functions. I actually started as a maternity cover and then got made permanent. And then after about 18 months, two years, got the opportunity to look after our digital operations division. So everything tech focused, really. So I've been looking after the recruitment there for a number of years. And then obviously, I guess over the last two years really trying to work with partners like Sheik and Code in terms of how we can support and engage more women in technology has been a real passion for me. So that's just a bit about myself.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Amazing. Thank you. And um Yasmin, tell us a little bit about you.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yeah, of course. So yeah, my name's Yasmin and I'm a talent acquisition lead here at M Brown. So my current responsibility is to look after a few different business areas. So I look after our supply chain and logistics teams, and then I also have some head office functions. So the legal services team, um, internal audit and procurement. So um my role is very varied in terms of the type of recruitment that I look after. Um and um yeah, I guess I've been at M Brown for about eight and a half years and have had the opportunity to recruit across pretty much the whole of the business, apart from tech and DT. So hopefully um in terms of this this chat today, I'll be able to sort of give a different bit of perspective in terms of the recruitment on my side of things and give a different sort of perspective of ideas and thoughts as well. But um, in terms of um sort of my experience of M Brown and what's kept me here for so long, um, is I firstly I work with a great team. Um so Stacey, Erin and Tessa, who's our manager, um all really supportive and you know, really sort of you know work together to sort of sort of try and be really progressive in terms of recruitment. So AI is a really big thing that we're looking at as a team right now. Um and yeah, in terms of the culture, it's a very supportive environment, and I've had the chance to really develop my time at M Brown. So, yeah, that that's a little bit about myself.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Amazing. Yes, most of the people I speak to from M Brown have been there um for some time already. I know they they do a great job at retaining their staff, um, and there's always a good story uh to tell. Um, Aaron, last but not least, tell us a little bit about you.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yes, uh so my name is Erin, and I've been with M Brown for a little bit, I think a year and six months now, so not that long compared to Stacey. And yes, so so still learning a lot. And uh my role, um, you know, I'm the talent acquisition lead for for retail, and my role basically covers buying merchandising and design, um, fit and sourcing, e-commerce, online merch, um, CRM and marketing, and decision intelligence. So quite high volume from my side. Um yeah, so I really really enjoy the role, my role. And the culture, I think, um goes back to what Yasmin shared as well. I think overall the culture's been very supportive. Um, I've been mostly in retail slash tech recruitment um throughout my career, and it's what I enjoy. So yeah, I'm glad to be here and thank you for having me today.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

No, thank you very much for for coming on board um and chatting with us. Uh and and you at least know that you're uh going to be there for a very long time when you join one of those companies where um people just stay for the long run. Or I've been in one of those companies where people join, they might leave, but they come back again. Do you have lots of people like that, Embraer? I can see you all nodding yet.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Yeah, yeah, we do, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Some companies uh uh manage to retain people or they hop in and out um and now they're always welcome.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

Yeah, it's always good as well when people come back a few years later. They've got they've worked at a different business, have different ex different experience, different skills, and then they come back into the business with a bit of a fresh pair of eyes, isn't it? You know, because um I know we all do quite a bit, you know, whether that's going to events or networking, because you know, it's great obviously being in one business, but it's good to also share experiences and and uh gain a better understanding of what's happening outside of your business to then bring in and help, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Yes, and it's always nice when people want to return as well, rather than those employees that think, gosh, I'm never going back to that company or I made it out alive or that kind of feeling. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Getting quite quite a couple of um rejoiner, rejoiners who applied for the role. Just yesterday, actually, we had we got a rejoiner who who rejoined NBROW as a CRM lead. So so yeah, definitely free company.

Do Humans Read Every CV?

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Yeah, there must be some something is um is going right there. Um so we've got a lot to unpack today about AI recruitment. It is something that our community has asked us about um recently, um, obviously with the changes that have that have happened really fast in the industry. Um so I wanted to kick off the discussion with um a question to you all. Many candidates worry that their CV never reaches a human because AI rejects it. What actually happens when someone applies to a role at N Brown?

SPEAKER_03 7:20

Um so I guess I can kick off with that. So just to put everybody's mind at ease, um at NBrown, we do not use AI um to um kind of automatically screen candidate CVs when when they apply for a role. Um it is always um one of us three um and or um the hiring managers so um who will review each CV as as they come in. Um we feel like it's uh it it's it's really important. Obviously, there are absolutely you know some some areas of of our recruitment process that would hugely benefit from AI. Um but we felt as a collective that I think shortlisting and uh pre-screening um is better done by by us, a real person.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Yeah, I think I think you know, just to add from it from my perspective, um, you know, we we get a lot of feedback and we sort of see a lot of comments on LinkedIn about candidate experience, um, you know, when they've submitted an application and they've they've been it's very obvious when AI has screened their application and it it doesn't create the best experience as a candidate. So I think as a team, we decided that for our business that the really human-first approach is is best, um knowing that you're being looked after by a human um and your interactions are going to be sort of led by a human-first approach, really. For us, we felt felt like that would create the best experience. Um, so yeah, I think you know there are parts where you know we would use AI as part of our recruitment process. Um I think everyone's well aware about the benefits of AI. Um, so I guess as an example, um, you know, when we're creating an advert, we may use that as a starting point or so use AI to assist. Um, but the sort of the the real body and the sort of the main sort of um information in the advert is really reviewed either by ourselves or by the hiring manager. Um so I guess it's just to give it a bit of reassurance to you know you guys out there that it really is that human first approach. Um and yeah, you know, give we we're really sort of very um sort of proactive in terms of getting that feedback from our candidates around that experience and and generally that human contact is what candidates you know are looking for. We've had the best feedback from.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Yes, I completely agree with that, especially using AI to assist in your your adverts, um, because also you can move a lot faster as well. And we were discussing this um internally recently. We don't know how we used to do things without AI because we do so much more now where that you can have that starting point and then you can review what is in there. But it's so important to still have that human looking over everything, um, but definitely using AI to assist. I I'd I couldn't agree more um on that. And and you are right with um that candidate experience, I think is is very much forgotten at the moment. There are so many young people on the news that you keep seeing at the minute saying, I've applied for hundreds and hundreds of jobs and I'm not hearing back. And and then there's that that experience as that company. If something does come up in the future, you might be 10, 15 years into your career at that point, you still remember that was a terrible experience I had with that company, or um I had one, I won't name them. Um, but the the process was so long and drawn out, it was about 10 months later when they finally come back and said, Oh, um, you know, this this is still ongoing, are you still interested? No, I've already got another job at this point, and I'm now I'm not looking to move. And it was the whole process was just such a terrible experience that I wouldn't think about applying to that company again. Um, because I understand companies get a lot of applicants, but you know, treating the the candidates um with uh some respect at least to to think even if we don't have a role that's suited for you at the minute, we might have one in the future is is really important. So, yeah, to have um use reviewing everything um must make such a difference to the candidate experience, definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

The amount of feedback we actually get from candidates around just that communication that perhaps they don't get, you know, like you've mentioned, you know, it sticks, you remember. Um just that, you know, thanks for your application. But fortunately, right now we don't have an open position. That small, quick sentence, it doesn't take a lot of time, but you know, you're communicating, you're giving them, you know, like you say, the respect to give them that, you know, human approach of, you know, we understand finding a new role, especially at the moment, can be quite challenging, quite tough. But just dropping them a note to say, we hear you, you know, we see you, but you know, this is where we're at right now. You know, the feedback we've had, even from that sort of basic bit of communication that they don't get elsewhere, it's been received really positively. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

Uh it's how I always treat it a bit like do you know, when you go on holiday and you go to a really nice like restaurant or you go to a really nice hotel, you're not as likely to write a really good review, are you? But if you have a really terrible experience, you probably weren't. You're up there, yeah. So it's like if you if if you're like, I don't know, like if you're out with a few of your friends and you're maybe talking about, I don't know, a few of you looking for a job, you're probably more likely to go, do you know what? I had a really terrible experience with this company, and that sticks. Whereas um, so I think, yeah, I think from you you do remember those experiences that are good, and and that you know, even if you don't get an interview or you don't get a role or you don't get offered, you know, you can still have a really good experience throughout. And sometimes no doesn't mean no forever, it's no just at this time or for this role, isn't it? So yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, it also gives you um uh sorry, I was just gonna um say you're probably about to say what I was gonna say. It's the feeling of what it might be like to work there as well. Because if you have a bad experience like that one I applied for, it's so dragged out. My immediate thought was, oh, is this what it's like to work there? Imagine working there, and you know, it takes 10 months to get one thing pushed through. That would be soul destroying. Whereas some companies move very fast, it's very personable. You know, that you you have people at the end of the line all the time that you can talk to as a team and and support each other. But I immediately thought, guys, their recruitment process is that dragged out. Maybe that's what this is like internally as well. Very corporate, um, just just not for me. Um, Aaron, is that something that that you would agree with? You're kind of showing the candidate as well what it would, what your culture is like working there.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think I can I can still remember my experience from 10 years ago, um, probably getting ghosted in the middle of the process. And I think it doesn't just reflect the culture internally, but it also turns me off as a potential customer that say it would be a consumer brand, for example, and you know, like it sticks with you. And with that particular brand as well, like um again, it turned me off as a customer and and and I wouldn't recommend that company or or or brand to my friends or family. So I think having that you know, give putting in that effort and applying for that role and giving a response, I think, is is definitely super important, not just for the um experience, but um the overall impression of the company. So yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Why Avoid AI Auto Rejects

SPEAKER_01 15:26

And so as we've discussed, you've chosen not to use AI to filter candidates, um, even though much of the tech industry is moving that way. What influenced that decision in the first place? And uh what are the benefits that that you have seen from that already? Have have you noticed almost a difference between what you're doing and perhaps what you've heard, what other companies are doing?

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Um I d I mean I'd say so. I think as an example, um you know, quite often, so one of the reasons one of the reasons it's better to use uh to do it the human way rather than the AI way is quite often you'll you'll have someone who applies for a role. They might not be quite right for that specific role. Now, AI would auto-reject them, right? But if we look at that and they go, actually, they've applied, they've got some really good experience, but I think they're actually better for a different role. Um then that for us is like a pipeline, that's like talent for another role. So I we could pick that CV and speak to that candidate and say, hey, you've applied. We actually think there's a better role suited to your experience. Are you interested? Um and it why would you want to why would you want to potentially miss out on those candidates being rejected, you know? Um, so that's just obviously one like example of where um it helps us. Um and as I say, you know, AI is really, really great for so many things. Um, but I think definitely for like reviewing, shortlisting, interviewing, I just I just would feel more comfortable it being us, you know, um and and the hiring manager. And as I say, there's a lot of you know you see a lot online about like, you know, um what it it sometimes it becomes a bit of a keyword game of bingo, doesn't it? Of like what what do I need to have in my CV to get me through this AI auto screen, and that's not that's not really what applying for a job should be about, should it, at the heart of it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

No, because you would just think, oh, if I could just talk to someone, I would see as well sometimes to see the passion in what you're doing, and and there are certain things that you you money cannot buy, or certain things that you cannot just go for a boot camp and put on your CV. So it's sometimes with that, it's I uh there's a story I tell about a lady. Um she's a she's in our community and she she uh uh volunteers with us sometimes. And um she said, When I went for that job, uh I learned C in two weeks and I didn't know it. And she said, I went for the coding test and I didn't do that great, but the employer still rung her up and said, We were so impressed that you learned that in two weeks. We didn't care if you didn't, you know, face the test. You can't buy that. She was just so passionate about it and was so going to be a sponge for that employer that they just hired her anyway. And she went on and did amazing things there. And um, if like you said, Stacey, that had gone through screening, they immediately would have just put her out of the running.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Yeah, yeah. And you know, don't forget, you know, okay, yes, we are looking for people who've got the right tech skills or the right type of experience, but actually, we also look, and a huge part of the interview process is assessing people's values and behaviours. So, are they demonstrating the type of behaviours we want to see throughout our colleagues within our business? And that stuff sometimes well doesn't come across on a CV. It's you have to speak to them, don't you? You have to like so I think uh and ultimately, you know, finding the right person for the right role, it it is a human thing, isn't it? It is, it is like you can't get that, you can't replicate that, can you?

SPEAKER_01 19:38

No, not at all. Sometimes it is a quick phone call as well, just to um chat with somebody and uh just think whether or not they sometimes you know you would know really well as well as to who is suitable for NBRAM, who would um uh be suitable for the culture and um get on well with the team and uh all of those things that you can't put on a job advertisement that only you would know from chatting with people um about you know the things that they like. And um for instance, I'm a person who likes being at a small startup and some people um don't like that. It's the crazy world of working in a startup and there's lots of responsibility and not many people, whereas other people prefer big corporates and um everything's already done and they kind of can fit in and do their job and and they like that structure. So you kind of know the sweet spot of who you're looking for. Um, but those things you can't, they don't really come across on a on a CV.

unknown 20:43

No.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

You know, and I think you know, we're very well aware now as well, for you know, it's a two-way street, so it's not just us screening or interviewing the candidate, you know, the candidate needs to get something out of the call as well. So they really need to, you know, get to know us as a business to see if we're the right fit for them as well. So if you're using solely AI to screen the application, you know, you're not giving the candidate the opportunity to find out a bit more about whether we're the right fit for them as well. Um, so yeah, for us it's a really when we do that initial call, it's a two-way street. We want you to ask the questi have the opportunity to ask those questions of us as well about you know the role, the technical side of things, what it feels like to work in the business as well. Um and we're getting lots of feedback from the candidate in the market as well through doing that. So, you know, it does benefit both sides.

Applying Without 100% Of The Spec

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yes, definitely. Yeah. Uh well, we we worked with a company who said um uh they took over the the lead for the partnership with us. And um, when I spoke to him, he was very new at that company and he said to me, I only joined a few months ago. And when I did my interview, I was thinking, I was looking at the recruiter, thinking, Well, this is all nice, and this company seems really nice, and these people just seem Great. He said, and then I got in thinking, right, there must be, excuse my French, arseholes somewhere. He said, I'm waiting for them to come out of cupboards. Because I I the recruitment process was great. The team was nice, he said, and I'm waiting for them to come out. And he said, they haven't appeared yet. So he but he did get that impression from the recruitment process um as to whether or not he wanted to join that company. And he said, I was proved uh wrong when I got in and realized actually the team they do work very hard to recruit um a certain type of person, as as he put it, just passionate people that really love their jobs. And uh but he got he painted a picture of that before he even got into uh the role. So yeah, it does make a difference. We hear from women in tech who feel that they have to meet 100% of the job spec to apply. We hear this all the time. They even walk up to us at shows and tell us, well, I'm training for this, but I'm not applying, um, which drives us insane because we just think they should just be applying. Um, but from a recruiter's perspective, what do you wish that they knew before hitting submit?

SPEAKER_03 23:12

It I don't I think this isn't limited to tech, to be honest, it's across any industry. It's something that is really common. I think there's there's there's two two sides to this. Um job descriptions can often be quite long and be more of a manager's wish list, and you're not you're not always gonna have everything on it, and that's absolutely fine. Still apply. Um so I think I think I think there's I think I would wish for people um, you know, when they're looking at a job description, if they don't have one thing, you know, unless it's unless you're reading that and go, you know what, that's you know, take a bit of sense with it, like that's absolutely essential to do that role, you know. Um then, you know, app, you know, obviously don't apply, but if if it's like, well, actually, like, you know, I could learn that or um, you know, I could I could build on that, then then yeah, like apply. Um I think yeah, I think I think on a job description, the every everybody, you know, still need to get better at really trying to fine-tune your job descriptions to make sure it's literally the only most essential skills and experience um to do the job. So so yeah, my advice would be, you know, apply. Um but just treat it with a bit of like, as I say, a bit of sensibility, you know, don't be applying for something that you've got zero experience in. Um, but at the same time, you know, take take a bit of a chance on, you know, just because you don't have one thing. Um, and as we mentioned before, it's the like the values and the behavioural side of things as well. So, you know, someone could have absolutely everything on the job description and tick everything, and then you interview them and go, actually, they're not the right fit. So it's not just always about those kind of key technical skills, it's about the overall and what that person can bring. So, yeah, I would say, you know, still definitely apply.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yes, definitely. Erin, I can see you nodding away, um, agreeing there. If is that something you've seen? Because I personally have seen everything that I think I want on paper sometimes. And like Stacey just said, I get on the interview and I'm thinking, oh, in my mind, you were gonna be my top candidate, absolutely. Yeah, and it does happen. It doesn't, yeah. And then it's somebody else that I think, oh, they've come to come through suddenly as the dark horse. And it that it that must be quite frustrating for you. So yeah, is that is that something that you see a lot, Erin, where you're like, could you I just wish you would have applied for that role or put yourself forward?

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Been in a number of situations actually recently. So I've joined um the interviews um for a online merch executive role that we were hiring for, and we got quite a number of applicant or candidates who were just perfect on paper, but when they came in, you know, it was it wasn't the right fit because of values and cultural fit. And then um in the end, we went for somebody who wasn't a um didn't really met all the requirements on paper, but they had the right transferable skills, mindset, thought process, and the cultural fit. And in the end, you know, we thought she that person was the um pretty much the outstanding candidate throughout the entire process. So I agree with all your all the points that you shared earlier, like that's you don't have to meet you know all the criteria you see on the job description. Sometimes it comes down to like the transfer transferable skills, mindset, thought process, and yeah, the values and cultural food.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Yeah, I think some companies as well, it's it is certain brands. Um, if people uh don't don't really know that brand, they they might think, oh, I'm I might not apply it. There are some brands as well that um I I heard this one recently um from a contact of ours and uh the brand that she's gone over to, we knew her from a previous corporate ambassador, and we were really lucky that she moved to another corporate ambassador of ours. And um she said, I nearly didn't apply for that job because the brand itself is quite intimidating. It's quite you everybody there, you think, is like highly intelligent. They only pick certain people from certain universities. And she said, when I went over, I was thinking, Oh, will I know all the jargon? Will I know how to um she works in talent, but she was thinking, How do I know how to to recruit for these types of roles? And she said, the more I've spoken to people on this team, everybody else had the same thought as well. So even herself as a talent recruiter in that company, she nearly didn't apply for that role because she didn't think um that she ticked all the boxes. She said, The more I've asked around this company, everyone else nearly didn't apply for their role as well. So if they, you know, they all took that chance and then got in and realized actually it is a good company and what was I worried about in the first place. So sometimes it's just taking that leap of faith um because other people are feeling the same way as well, usually, especially in tech. And Stacy, you mentioned at the start with the jargon, we just bamboozle ourselves with useless jargon.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, 100%.

Fixing Gendered Language In Job Ads

SPEAKER_02 28:42

It's an interesting point. I mean, because we we um whenever we advertise a role, we run them through a gender decoder tool. And you know, there are some. So, for example, I know Stacy uh within the sort of tech side of things, and then for myself, for supply chain and logistics, because by nature it is a very male heavy industry, we sort of review our adverts and the techs in there to be more female-weighted, so that uh in an ideal world it will help to attract more females to apply for the role. Um, because you know, I I know and I've I've been through that experience myself. When you see an advert with male, I guess more masculine words that are a bit stronger, a bit more direct, it does you know put you off slightly. And you know, I think it's not just protect it, I think it's across the board. Women generally, if they don't hit the mark on everything. And there's something there that slightly sort of they think they can't meet that requirement, it generally does put you off from progressing through that process. So I think you know, that's where we do do a bit of work around our adverts in terms of you know looking at the types of words that we're using and how we're communicating to our audience and our to our target audience as well to attract more um female talent to the roles as well.

When AI Helps Your CV

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, definitely. Because if if we do hear that so often from our community, they're seeing the job, they're they're not applying. So, yeah, putting in that effort of um trying to word that advertisement at least to try and um catch those people that are sort of on the fence about whether or not they should apply would definitely make a difference. Um we've spoken a lot about uh you using AI in the recruitment process. Um what about AI for CVs is uh the other way that AI is being used in uh recruitment at the moment. So there has been a huge rise in AI assisted CVs. Um when does using AI generally help a candidate and when does it actually hurt them?

SPEAKER_03 30:52

Yeah. I think I I do not have an issue with people using AI to support uh writing their CV. I think it's really great for articulating your skills, your experience, tiding it, tidying it up, making it more concise. I think that's what it should be used for. Please do not input a job description into AI and ask it to write it for you or write a cover letter or write a personal profile. For me, that's just a big no. Um, I remember a while ago I had two CVs for a role, and both had the same opening paragraph. And yeah, like literally, and and and and it was the same like word by word. Um so I think my I would really encourage people to keep that CV as much about you as you can, um, and show I guess what you're I think what what that I can see as a difference as well if something's been written with AI versus being written by someone, is showing what you've delivered and what you've achieved, not just a little list of everything you do on a day-to-day basis, because that's just a long list, isn't it? Whereas actually, yeah, obviously highlight what you do, but also like highlight what you've delivered. And that's because for a lot of roles, especially in tech, is you know, it's great, you know, you might, I don't know, if you're looking for a role in I don't know, like product management, it it's probably you're not gonna have like a long list of like a tech stack, are you? But what actually you want to know as a good product manager is what have you delivered and what's the impact been? Um, you know, what's been the value to the customer or what's been the value to the uh business. Um the same with like if you're working maybe an engineering role, is it's great that you've used AWS, but how have you used AWS? Um, what have you used it for? Um, so I think that for me is like the sweet spot. So absolutely do use it, tidy it up, keep it concise. Um, it's really great as to how we use our when we're building our job description, use it as a starting point, you know. Um, but absolutely make it your own because it it is very apparent, I think. Um yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

I because we're gonna ask you about red flags um and how you can yeah uh just see that somebody has just run that through Chat GBT, but if you've got two with the same starting paragraph, yeah, I was shocked.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

I'm sure I saw you in the office, didn't I? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, can you believe this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

I think that the main the main reason, I mean it like I say, it's disappointing because I think that's our first impression of you and your level of interest in approaching our business, joining our business. So you really that's our first point of contact with you. And I think we want to see through that that you've got that sort of level of commitment to applying for the role with our business. So that's what I would say is use it as the starting point, but really, you know, um adapt it to yourself, your your style and your skill set. Um, and yeah, it's it is interesting. We have seen a rise in terms of candidates that we have seen using AI. And um, I think you know, we want to get to know you as a person. So really doom use it as a starting point, but put your own flavour, your own stamp on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Yes. I think even as well, if you have a CV that is kind of your bog standard CV that you've always been using, um, Stacy, like you said, you might have listed your skills, even if you asked AI to assist you in changing that to show what you deliver and to give you some pointers on how to tell your story in that way. Even that is a better starting point. So could you just help me tell my story a little bit better from what I already am on this CV? Um there's somebody gave a great tip on here, uh, and it's um something I've told a lot to our community members about brag books. So when you do something at work, um find a place to write it down. And this lady referred to it as her brag book. And when she wanted to then apply for roles, she had a list of all of the projects that she'd worked on that where she had achieved great things, where she could list you know the value that she added. And um because when you're applying and suddenly you think of actually what have I done in the last year, for instance, um it all just escapes you, and you just start listing tech stacks, for instance. So even putting your brag book into Chat GBT would be a better brag book, absolutely great.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

You do forget what you do, don't you? Right? You do forget, yeah.

Red Flags Recruiters Spot Fast

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Exactly. Um, and you have those little wins at work, and then you kind of forget, and then you get in a job interview, and you're like, well, get some stuff, you know. Actually, you were keen on a project, um, and uh and and you've forgotten about it. So um, Aaron, have you seen any red flags that you kind of see? And uh, do you roll your eyes when you see certain things on CVs and you're like no, no, I think I agree with with Stacey and Yaz.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

I think using AI as a starter uh would definitely be feasible. I think um a red flag would be what I've experienced recently, actually. Like what was written in their CVs doesn't really match how it comes across in the interviews. So I think AI can help you phrase things well, but it can't really replace your experience. That's you. So sometimes, you know, when we when when we look at CVs with our managers, um CVs reads really strong with the right words, um with all the right uh sort of like directions, words that they put in the paper. But when they get into the interviews, there was an obvious gap there. Um and I've been in supporting in interviews where candidates struggled to talk through the details of behind what they've written, no matter if it's on the CV or say the task that they've prepared. And that disconnect becomes a red flag pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Yeah, that's super interesting, um, and a massive red flag. Well, I I think as well, especially with women in tech, uh I've heard this from lots of senior uh ladies um for a very long time who have said uh you need to be authentic at work. And being authentic is actually something that employers are looking for, especially in women in tech, because they want you to bring your leadership style, what you bring to the workplace. That's what they're looking to employ because they want to diversify their workforce. They don't want you to be like everybody else that you have seen before you, um, that might have been lots of um uh male-dominated leadership, for instance. If you're emulating that style, they want you to be um yourself and what you bring to the table. So it's interesting that you can, you know, put a load of stuff on a CV and actually just that doesn't reflect you at all in that interview, um, and that you can see that that massive gap. Um, yeah, that's that must be quite disappointing at the moment. Think, well, this this doesn't match your your CV.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

No, well there's an interesting um one. I remember we were in a sort of people huddle and we sort of share ideas, things that we f found sort of during the course of the week. And someone had mentioned that they had a CV through and the candidate had put down that they went to Oxford University. So at the interview, they'd asked, Oh, which house were you part of when you were at university? And the candidate just froze because they they kind of knew that they they'd been found out, um, and they weren't able to answer sort of I was part this house at university. And these are sort of some of the lectures that I knew. So, you know, that's why you do need to be super careful about what information is on your CV because a high manager at any point could sort of call things out and sort of quiz you. And if you're not sort of well armed with the right information, then that's when we would really know whether the information in there is genuine or not.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Oh, that one that's that's pushing it. I don't think I would make up I went to Open where you went.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

I know, I know. We've heard some interesting stories over the the sort of the past year since AI's sort of got bigger and bigger. So yeah, I think that's um some a bit of advice that I would give to the people out there is really make sure the information on your CV is true to who you are.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Yes. I suppose I mean on that note as well, with AI, it can help you with lots of things. But if we don't suddenly have it, or I remember the headlines ChatGBT went down and it was humans forced to use their brains for a day. We still have to know what we're doing. So, like you said, Yasmin at the start, it's it's good to have it as a as something to assist you, but you have to know you can't wing it entirely through your job and just uh constantly asking AI. So um, yeah, that um you must be uh catching quite a few people out in interviews at the minute thinking.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

If you get found out once, you won't do it again.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

So maybe that one time I told uh an interviewer that I went to Oxford. Um yeah, yeah. So if a listener is applying this week, um what are three simple things that would immediately improve their chances of getting an interview?

SPEAKER_03 41:13

So I think for me, kind of what we've highlighted already so far. So tail uh tailor you CV, um especially obviously the tech skills, the the amount of times like I get an application and it doesn't list or doesn't talk about the key tech stack that we're looking for. Um so yes, I would I would definitely look at that. I think remove anything that's just not relevant, like don't necessarily need to know um absolutely everything, like every job you've ever had. Um and then I think what's been helping, and I've seen this quite a lot actually recently, is there obviously is obviously we look at like the job market, um and and especially for for um I guess with you think you mentioned it before, Kaylee, didn't you? Around you know, the amount of people who are graduating and really struggling to get jobs. Um obviously the labour market uh is is really poor at the moment. So I think what I've found is how uh some candidates have actually reached out to hiring managers directly and just said, you know, hey, I'm really interested. I have applied, but I'd love to, you know, have the opportunity. So I think showing that kind of proactiveness and enthusiasm um goes a long way, to be honest. I've seen that a lot, and it just might help kind of put you put put shine a light on you um and just go in that extra that extra bit.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Um yeah, I think the market's so competitive right now, so definitely separate yourself from the next um, you know, uh so obviously submitting your application through the relevant channels, but then dropping the hiring manager or the talent team a note just to say, yeah, I've submitted my C V, this is why I'm interested in the role. Um, really would really love to have a further chat with you. Um and uh for me, really, I think everything that's face to said for me, I would agree with. But I think before you're even in the position where you need to look for a new role or you want to look for a new role is putting yourself out there. So getting onto LinkedIn and creating your profile, presenting yourself in the right way on LinkedIn, um, connecting with sort of like minded peers in the industry, um, and getting yourself out there for networking events as well, to meet with people in person so they can get to know a bit more about you, and vice versa, you can sort of sort of see what what what They're getting involved in in their business as well to see where you might want to approach when you are um looking for a new role. So I think definitely anything you can do to be a bit more proactive is is a key one as well.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Yeah, I agree. I mean, just from personal share, real life experience, that's how I pretty much got my role here at N Brown. So absolutely. I emailed a message in, I think I've messaged um tests or Oliver as well on LinkedIn. And I think it was one of you, I think, Yaz and Stace that forwarded that email to Oliver and basically got the interview. So proact being proactive definitely goes a long way. And I agree everything that Stacy and Yasmin just said. I mean, tailoring the CV is always a key point. Um, instead of, I would say overuse of buzzwords can be quite um an overkill sometimes. Um and it's I I would highly recommend including something specific um of an achievement. For example, like you've identified a gap in the X process and you've aligned with the team and changed the process, which resulted in a Y outcome. I think it it builds a lot more credibility there. And always on the C E V, I would say less is more. Um, and you know, you don't have to really put your entire life in it. Um, but if you can if you can really have the reader being able to read through your entire CV in say six to ten seconds and understand your value, I think you're already ahead.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Yes, definitely. And I definitely agree on um the the emailing in and and and almost um putting yourself uh it in front of the people that need to see you. Something that we notice a lot is um when people applying for our roles, we notice their names when they're cropping up and even liking our posts on LinkedIn, and you start to make the connection with that name and that candidate, um, and that they're actively seeking you out and and and you know, actually looking up your work and what you're doing, um it really does make a difference. That that tiny little like sort of logs that um candidate's name uh and that they're a bit more passionate about it than just I submitted another application you know, just over and over again.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

Yeah.

Final Thoughts And Goodbye

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Um I could keep talking to you on this topic uh all morning because there is so much to unpack and our community will find this so, so useful. Um so uh, but we are already out of time. So thank you all so very much, Stacey, Yasmin and Erin, thank you so much for taking the time out uh to share your valuable um experiences um and to everybody listening as always, thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.