Different Routes, Same Team: Navigating Tech Careers from CS Degrees to Career Changes

Holly Lampert and Emma Harrison, both from Dunelm, share their unique journeys into the tech world—one coming through a traditional Computer Science degree, the other taking the leap into tech via a career change with the support of CodeFirstGirls. 

In this episode, they dive into what it’s like to break into tech through different paths, the challenges they faced, and the lessons they’ve learned along the way. Having worked together on the same team, they also reflect on collaboration, team dynamics, and how diverse backgrounds can bring fresh perspectives to tech projects. 

Whether you’re considering a career pivot or just curious about life in tech, Holly and Emma show that there’s no single path to success—and that thriving in tech is possible no matter where you start.

SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.

Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.

Transcript

Welcome And Big Idea

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Katie Batesman, the Managing Director, Community and Partnerships at CCAN Code, and today we're discussing different routes, same team, navigating tech careers from computer science degrees to career changes. I've got two incredible women from Dunion with me today, Holly Lampert and Emma Harrison. They're here to share their unique journeys into the tech world. We're going to discuss how there's no single path to success and that thriving in tech is possible no matter where you start. Welcome, ladies. Thank you so much for coming on and having a chat with us today. It's a pleasure to have you both here. We'd love to get started with a little bit about both of you. You have two very different journeys in and we'd love to hear all about them. So can um can you tell us a little bit about uh how you came into tech? Um Holly, you came through a uh computer science degree. Emma, you came via a career change. Um but we'd love to hear how you got in, how you got to where you are, um and what motivated you to take that path. Um Holly, let's start with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Thank you for having us and thank you for the question. So, yeah, from a young age I've been always interested in tech, but I've never really been surrounded by tech like I know almost were. But both of my siblings are working in jobs that are related to tech, where my sister is a computer science champion at her primary school, she teaches that, and my brother works in software engineering testing. So they've both been a big inspiration to me growing up my entire childhood. I've also had quite a few supportive teachers at school as well, and they could tell that this was the right path for me, and they may believe they made me believe that this was the right choice as well. I think while I was at university though, I suffered quite impossi badly with imposter syndrome, and I was always surrounded by people who were a lot better than me and been coding since they were quite a young age. And I hadn't really done much coding before I'd gone to uni, so I was quite scared and getting a bit demotivated while I was there. But while I was at uni, I did start my program journey, and in my first and second year of uni, it was a bit of a disaster, and I didn't understand anything. And every day I began to feel quite hopeless and didn't think I could make it. And yeah, like I've said, my motivation was already quite low. But I had a very supportive friend group, and they were always telling me that I can do in it, and they were offering their support whenever I needed it. And it wasn't actually until third year when I started to work on my dissertation and I found my true passion, which is where I did a web development programme on an algorithm that was to use by one of my lectures at the time for something he was researching. And before this, I'd never done anything like web development before. So I was quite scared to get started on it. But once I started to learn and how to use it, I really enjoyed it and I knew that this was something that I wanted to go do after university. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I love that um you had role models, is the one thing because uh we do struggle with role models in tech, and at least you had role models in your life that you could see people that were doing it and what your day might look like if you went down that route. Um I have heard from a few people uh who have said that they um wished that they had had uh a good experience at university because by the time they got to work, it actually didn't really match their experience at university. And um, especially like interns, for instance, um, they've told me, oh, my experience of that, you know, one week or a couple of weeks, or even a summer at that company actually is nothing like my experience at university. Um and thankfully they stuck it out and you know did end up in tech. But um it was interesting when you you know you said that you felt that kind of where that imposter syndrome at university, and it's like, how many people do we lose along the way that drop out at that point because you had all the role models in place, so um but there are many routes in um because Holly um you obviously came in more of traditional route and stuck it out for a university and came luckily into tech and landed a brilliant role at Dunham. Um but Emma, you came from a uh a completely different route. You came via a career change. Can you tell us about that, how you got in um and what motivated you to take that path?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Uh yeah, so my sort of background is very different to Holly, and that I didn't really have many role models in terms of working in tech. Um, my dad was in the army and then kind of worked in a normal corporate job. Um, my mum was a stay-at-home mum, and I sort of went to kind of bang average comprehensive school, and computing at that point was still very much ICT. I think nowadays people do programming a lot more at that secondary school level. But when I was at school, it was like Excel spreadsheets and Microsoft Word and PowerPoints and stuff. So there wasn't really that much representation there for me. Um, I realized that looking back now that I actually did quite a lot of technical things without realising they were technical. Um I was really into Tumblr, which I think a lot of girls my age were really into. I used to make Tumblr themes, which was using HTML and CSS and stuff. Um I used to mod a few games, like mod the Sims and stuff. Um, but then I didn't really realize what I was doing then could be used in a career. Um, I didn't really know anything about what software engineering was like. Um, so I didn't really have anyone to kind of look up to and see doing that kind of thing. But I always preferred English. When I was at school, um, I was really into literature and I ended up going to university and doing an English degree. And I really loved medieval literature and the author and legends. Um, but I didn't have a massive grasp of what kind of career I wanted to do after. I was just kind of pursuing the things that I found interesting. Um and then when I was at university as well, I got really into whining participation and outreach because I did a sort of a Sutton Trust summer school when I was 17, um, which basically are kind of summer schools aimed at children who go to you know free state education. Um, if you're from a deprived area, there's kind of extra points as well if you're from if you're a care lever or you're a carer, that sort of thing. It's kind of aimed at giving those children um better opportunities to get into like high achieving um like higher education institutions. And I I loved it and I took part of the and took part in leading them as well when I was at university as a student ambassador. And I really, I really loved all that, and it was really a big passion for me. Um just trying to get kind of people who are underrepresented at university into those positions. So when I left university, I tried to pursue a career there. I started working in university admissions, which was the last career I had before I moved into tech. Um and I really I really liked it, but it was getting quite boring. I didn't feel like I was being challenged much. Um, and then just casually um late my life out of just kind of reading the news and that sort of stuff, and I came across an article um by the BBC which was about people who were doing career changes, especially women. Um, and there's a girl on the photo on the front cover who had gone to my university and she was talking about doing a coding course, and I knew that she did a humanities degree. Um and I guess this sort of is like the whole thing of why representation matters is just through seeing someone who was like me and uh had that similar background to me doing tech was enough for me to think that I could give it a go. Um, because I'd always had a latent desire to code. I don't really know why, um, but I managed to kind of managed to pursue it at that point just through doing kind of little courses. So there was a Python course and then a web dev course. Um and I remember in the web dev course we made a button and we made it blue using CSS, and I just felt amazing. It was a really powerful moment, it was really exciting. Um I kind of felt this spark that I'd not really had in my job for a long time. Um, so from that point I knew that I wanted to give it a real go. And then CodeFirst Girls started doing a boot camp, which I managed to get a place on sponsored by Don, which is how I ended up in the job I'm in now. Um but yeah, I I guess I just I moved jobs because I wanted to be challenged, I wanted novelty, I wanted to solve problems, um, and I wanted to have stability in my actual career, but my day-to-day, I wanted to change regularly and always provide new things to have a go. So I guess to kind of sum it up, my original motivation was definitely driven by curiosity and like a desire to change my life and have something new. But then my motivation now to stay in my career is that I love it and also that kind of passion for outreach is still here. You know, Womened Tech is um kind of a big uh initiative, and I feel like I've been able to get the same passion for getting people who are not representing these same backgrounds in that in my old job in this as well. So yeah, it's just kind of been everything I wanted it to be and more.

The Math Myth And Tech Roles

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Well, that's good to hear because it it sounds like you weren't inspired by Excel spreadsheets learning how to do a MAO merge at school. Don't know if anyone remembers that. That wasn't very inspiring. And then obviously you went on to train and then was inspired by the people that you met and the training that you did. Um uh it's brilliant to hear. Um, Emma, I don't know if you had this um this so we uh we try and bust the myth and the misconceptions of working in tech as well, that if you are transitioning from one career or you've done say humanities, that you have to be really good at maths and things that you and are really good at those sort of subjects where you I personally I just freak out anything to do with that and would think uh you know, a career in tech is not for me. And actually, there's loads of careers in tech where you don't have to be highly technical, you don't have to have a computer science degree, for instance. Um is that something that you you thought at the time? Did you have that moment where you're like, maybe that's not for me?

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Um yeah, I mean, I I was maths-y a bit at school, and then uh so I did maths, GTSC, and did really well in it. And then I took A-level maths uh thinking, yeah, easy A here. I smashed my GTSEs and I absolutely flopped it. Um level maths is kind of a thing I don't like to look back on. I think it's kind of made me kind of quite against maths in my adulthood. Um, like I do this brain training app and it makes me do mental maths at every time, it just gives me shivers. But yeah, there is definitely a perception you have to be really mathy, and there are some roles that you do probably have to do mathy for. There are my my brother has a maths background and he's actually also doing a career change uh career change into tech, and he does some kind of more like databased roles, and he definitely uses his maths background there. But there's a massive range of careers. I mean, I prefer front-end engineering myself. Um, that's definitely very visual. It it definitely relies a lot on creativity. I mean, I find with an English degree I'm trained, trained is a bit of a strong word, but you know, I studied how to analyze text and spot patterns and those kind of things apply in code as well. I find it very easy to, you know, spot these kind of patterns and things which helps with problem solving and you know, documentation is a bit of read documentation is a big part of your job. Um, and and I find reading and kind of comprehending words at that quite easy. So there's always very something that you've studied, you know, one of my friends has done a psychology degree and then she did the career change, but she was also again very used to reading these complex articles and extracting information and how people think, which also helps in terms of thinking how users think and how to test things. And there's always a way to apply what you've learned in a technical way, and you definitely don't have to be the stereotypical massy person. Um, I think it definitely holds a lot of people back when it shouldn't.

Finding Creativity Through Web Development

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Yes, definitely. Because um, Holly, I was going to say to you the opposite, actually. Did you think coming from your background that perhaps tech wouldn't be creative? I hear that a lot as well, that people think, well, you know, it's a it's very technical. I get to be creative, and then they come in and they're like, actually, like I could have combined arts and humanities and other things with with tech. I didn't know that until I actually got in and got my first job.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

I think for me, um I did Art GSSE, so I'd already quite liked being creative and enjoying that. And like I mentioned, I quite struggled with my own programming like journey. And I think because I struggled, what I struggled with most was I was just given a problem to solve, and that was it. And the reason I think I fell in love with web development, like um Emma's mentioned with front end, is that you can be creative with it, and that's what have like flourished for me because I really liked being able to combine that side of me, but also the more logical side of like the programming side and like the problem solving. I quite liked like having that combination, and I think that's what pushed me to carry on being motivated because up to that point I hadn't seen anything like that, and I was quite quite worried that I would lose those skills and I wouldn't be able to do them anymore. But it's definitely uh changed how I thought about how tech works.

Imposter Syndrome And Confidence Traps

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Yes, definitely, and falling into the right company that it enables you to do that as well and to be creative um and and innovate um as well make make a big difference. Um I'm curious because you came from different backgrounds, you would have had different mindsets coming in and also what you thought were going to be um challenges. But I wanted to know what were the biggest challenges or unexpected surprises that you faced when starting out in tech and how did you overcome them?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Uh yeah, so I can I can start with this. Um yeah, actually when Holly and I discussed this, it's quite similar, even though we had very different backgrounds, it is quite similar. A lot of the issues, but um definitely for me, I think one of the biggest challenges, we've sort of touched on it already, was not fitting the stereotype. And I think punishing myself a lot with that. I wasn't very traditionally maths-y, I didn't really tinker much with hardware or kind of build my own gaming PC like a lot of people in tech have. Um, you know, a lot of people in tech really love outside of their jobs uh tinkering with kind of things and messing with kind of things and maybe like building things, whereas I didn't really have that background. Um, I didn't arrive with the same foundational knowledge that a lot of computer science graduates have. And I definitely punished myself a lot for that at the start. And I would compare myself a lot to people who came through a more traditional route, um, which again is completely pointless because as Holly said, like she did the traditional route and she was comparing herself. So there's sort of really nothing you can do apart from being like the ultimate god of computer science with no one to compare yourself to. There's there's always going to be someone else there that you can compare yourself with. Um but yeah, I just felt that people had a massive head start. And I was comparing myself a lot at that point to the unknown. I was in my first sort of year as well at the start, so I I didn't really have someone to compare myself to. I couldn't compare myself to the grads because they did a computer science degree, and it wasn't really anyone else in that position. So that was definitely the hardest part. And I I sort of realised that the comparison is unproductive in both directions. Like everybody has gaps and everybody has strengths. So there was no point for me comparing myself to those people or either of them comparing themselves to me, because my background helps me think differently. But that's good. Like you want diversity of thought. Um, and I guess yeah, the biggest sort of thing, the biggest aspect of something that I faced, and then the kind of thing of how I overcame it was just realizing it's kind of like a uh an old saying for a reason that comparison is a thief of joy. Um, but also comparison can sometimes be the kind of robbing you of progressing because you're just holding yourself back. So that was definitely the biggest issue. Um, I mean, obviously there's other things like struggling to learn how to do things and what the hell is like Redux and like why is my React component doing this thing? But in terms of like an overall theme, it was definitely comparing myself and just trying to push to be at a point in my career that I just wasn't ready yet for. You know, compare yourself to senior engineers who've got five, ten years of experience is just such a pointless endeavor. Um, and I see people do it all the time. So I think it's it's basically like a an event you just have to go through at this point. But yeah, it just never it never provides you with any joy or relief. So you may as well just carry on doing what's good for you.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Yes, and in you you see it in tech a lot as well because we don't we don't help where we sit in meetings and then everybody's got an acronym for something and you're just sitting there like everybody's bamboozled. And I I'm always wondering like, does everybody else know what's going on in this meeting? Or I've had lots of community members say they hadn't noticed um until you know a couple of years into their career that actually everybody's just writing everything down, disappearing, and then going and checking out, you know, they might have a company glossary that can help you. And and and I hadn't actually noticed that it wasn't just me that was feeling that way because we don't uh help each other in tech by um you know using all this jargon sometimes that freaks everybody out and you feel like can you just break it down for me? And what am I actually meant to be doing here? So when you do have that feeling that you had Emma, then you know it it doesn't help with that. But um yeah, you're so right, just not not comparing yourself um to others. Uh definitely um it's brilliant advice. And Holly, yourself, what was your biggest challenge? Because you would have come in with um a different point of view. Did you have that same feeling? I suppose you have that when you get started, but you were armed with a lot of computer science degree knowledge as well. So what were your challenges?

SPEAKER_01 17:18

I think, yeah, like as I mentioned, confidence is like a big factor within it, and that was definitely one of my issues as well. And I've definitely mentioned this in the last question as well. But when I was at uni, I was often comparing myself to a lot of my friends as well, because my entire friend group had basically been programming since they were about 10, and I hadn't had this experience. And whenever we went to a lecture or we came out on kind of an assignment, they all knew what to do instantly, and I just felt like I didn't know what was going on, and I had to have more support than they needed. So I was often comparing myself to them, and that really plummeted my confidence. But obviously, thankfully, I've got here today and like got into the software engineering myself. But once I was started into tech, like that shifted to more of me no longer comparing myself to my peers, but people who are like more senior, because when I was at uni, I was more telling myself, oh, if they can do it, I should be able to do it too, because we're at the same level. But whenever coming to work into tech, I'm more comparing myself to others around me, and I'm saying, Why am I not at that level? Like, why am I not good enough? And I think um it's sometimes hard to remember that everyone's at different points in life and different points in their careers, and obviously a senior engineer is gonna know a lot more than I am as a junior grad when I come in, and it's um it can be quite hard to like understand that. And I think um when I joined, I would be scared to ask questions to a senior engineer because I feel like what if they're gonna laugh at me? And this isn't like this isn't how people are, but I felt like they know everything. Are they gonna think I'm silly if I just asked this really simple question? When that turned out to not be the case, and I had like a really supportive team who would happily answer any question I had and made sure that I got a better understanding. And I think um when I joined as well, I also lacked confidence in picking up work because I felt, oh, this person could probably do it much faster than me and much better. What's the point of me picking this up? Because they're gonna just do it like in the day where it might take me two weeks, but that's not the point. I've been hired to learn and develop myself so I can come with that at some point, and I think that's an important lesson that we need to remember. And with these confident issues, I often felt like I lacked faith in my own ability. So sometimes I think I'd underestimate what I was able to actually do, and that meant that I could miss out on some other opportunities because I was scared to take them on board because I felt like I couldn't do it and I didn't want to fail or disappoint anyone. And I think I'm still trying to overcome this, but I've started to branch out into more set areas and push myself forward to different opportunities so I don't get scared or like shy away from them.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

And yeah, and I guess I was gonna say I love that you have got to the point where you're like, I'm gonna pick up that work, I'm gonna do that. I love that. That must have taken um some courage as well to think I'm gonna I want the experience.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah, I think um like I just had like a mind shift of understanding I'm never gonna get better unless I actually work on that set area, and that's definitely helped. And like Emma's definitely helped with all of this as well, because she was my buddy when I joined the company, and she would like point out tickets to us. That would be good for not even just me, but for both of us to learn as well, because we're both continuing to learn every day, which was really helpful. And I guess from like this, we can both see that we've struggled with quite similar problems with Emma like comparing herself to the unknown while I'm comparing myself to the known. And I think we both can agree that there's no benefit in comparing yourself. But I know that's easier said than done. But if you can work on changing your mindset to focus on things that do benefit you, then it will change your like life.

Low Pressure Ways To Try Tech

How Different Backgrounds Improve Teamwork

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yes. I I couldn't agree more. And um just uh sometimes getting that experience or having an opportunity where you can try something new and think actually I was good at that or not good at that, or maybe I won't pick that, kind of tick it up again. Um, you don't know un until you until you try. Um we always try and make our hackathons feel like that. So um we love having new Dunelm ladies come along to our hackathons. We absolutely love it. But we get such a range of people come to those. And we've had people from Dunilm come along with hardly any experience or um just those that wanted to hear more about the jargon that's used, you know, they're not actually coders themselves, and then obviously we've had um people come along that that are coders and and just want to throw themselves into a complete team of strangers. Um and we we really don't mind we we start having the the Dunelm ladies come down and join us. But those hackathons are meant to be um for anyone to try anything and to be uh you know given a challenge and try something and to feel like you don't have to feel intimidated by what is happening. We don't expect you to come up with some incredible product by the end of the day. We want you to try and it's highly competitive, but we don't want you to feel that pressure because it does make people just think, maybe this isn't for me, or you know, this isn't the environment I would like to work in. But sometimes having that feeling, our hackathons we've noticed are great, but they're they're things like um how to tap into a vulnerability in you know Southworth or something like that. And you'll win£10,000 if you manage to find uh something about it. Ours are not like that, you know, you know they're just really good fun. And we feed you all day. But that's what it's meant to be just good fun and trying something new. Because you're so right, even from both of your backgrounds, um having that opportunity to step forward sometimes and and try something um without having to compare yourself to what everybody else is doing really makes a difference in tech because you really don't know if it's for you unless you give it a go, let alone you know enter a career and think, am I doing the right thing? Is this really for me? Yeah it's quite it's quite a leap of safe sometimes. And you work together on the same team obviously but I wanted to know though how did your different backgrounds shape the way that you collaborated and approached projects? Yeah obviously diversity of uh uh backgrounds of voice super important but how how did you approach projects?

SPEAKER_01 23:28

I can start with that one. So like I've mentioned when I first joined I was placed into Emma's team and something that my team did really well was give me a tech buddy so that I would have a person that I could always ask questions to and like they're the person that I would go to for any help. And that also meant pairing on a lot of the work that we did. And I think this was a really great decision for both of us because I've never worked inside of like a tech team before and I've only ever worked with my peers at university and obviously like I've mentioned they've come from quite a similar background to me of doing computer science at uni and then like doing this every day whereas Emma has come from a background where it's a completely different degree. And I think these different journeys helped us collaborate well together because having these different backgrounds meant that we had different ways of thinking about a problem. So if I saw how one way to solve it Emma could think of another way if I didn't understand what was going on Emma could explain it in a way that I could or if Emma didn't understand what was going on I could explain in a way that she could and it was quite helpful to have these different ways because these different mindsets helped us solve problems a lot faster. And I also think despite us having these different backgrounds I do think we do work in a similar way and we both found it quite helpful when we're discussing quite complex problems for example we'd rather sit in a call than send in messages back and forth. And these similarities have also helped us as it's made us feel quite comfortable with each other working from like the very first time. And yeah Emma's also learnt quickly how to work best with me and me for her when it comes to explaining different things. And that's really sped up the process of working together too.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Yeah I love that even the way that you communicate via those projects when you say an exit doing us a quick call is sometimes better and also to keep each other sane. I we do that we're like if you need a quick call with someone just to be like is it just me or is this project going this way rather than messaging you know backwards and forwards sometimes you can sit there and look in your teams might be like pinging and you're like we just jump on a call but even the way that you communicate with each other um can be so important not not just you know your technical knowledge and and how you're going to um make it to the the end of the project as well. Emma, what about you? How do you think that your different backgrounds really help to to shape the way that you work together yeah I mean like in terms of working together I think like Holly said we we worked together naturally really well.

Psychological Safety And Ending Gatekeeping

SPEAKER_02 25:54

I think we both have a similar working style um and we both adapted really quickly and the tech body system is great. I had one who at my tech body also called Emma and I you know still talk to her really regularly um she was really a big defining kind of person in my career as well. I think in terms of my background with how I think and work and collaborate I think it's actually a really good point overall to show actually how different backgrounds can really help you in tech because for me having done an English degree and then also kind of working in the public sector where there's everything's documented it means that I really value reading and like the written word. So I rely a lot on stronger documentation but it means that I also can create really strong documentation. It's something that I feel quite passionate about in tech because people will keep a lot of technical jargon or acronyms or how code works in their head and not share it, which is not very inclusive to people who are joining. So in the teams that I'm in I try and push for stronger documentation. And yeah like they also like I said English degrees teach you to analyse text and approach things critically and I think part of how that has shaped my career is I think a lot more about the why behind problems. Like I'm trying to understand the story so to speak. So a lot of that is the why which are product decisions. And I think when you have a natural interest in things like that like product decisions, it helps you it kind of aids you in predicting problems and contributing to things like architecture because rather just in being interested in the kind of code and what it's doing just like you know this function does this thing you're interested in the higher level problem of what's driving all the the need for this new code. But yeah I think like Holly touched on in terms of collaborating um she had a lot more of the technical vocabulary than I did having done a computer science degree I wasn't taught the formal academic vocabulary at university and a lot of it is what I've picked up just from reading articles. So I built a lot of my understanding in tech using metaphors and analogies like the API being a waiter is a really classic analogy that you know you use when you're teaching people to code. And I find that really helpful and actually when I've taught people things using those analogies and sort of similar analogies I've had a real bit of reception to it. And I think it does show the value of just speaking to people like they're humans. Sometimes in tech I felt there's this elitism a little bit where people feel really smart because they know this really important thing. So when they teach someone else they also teach it in this very important way because it makes them feel good that people have to really work hard to understand this really complex topic that they understand completely. When actually if you just took it down a level speak to people like they're human speak on the terms that they understand then you can share the knowledge and sort of not gatekeep it. I feel like there's a lot of there's a lot of gatekeeping which I you know I don't agree with I think yeah learning how to adapt to how people work is hugely important. I think finding what works for you, communicating clearly to your team, being adaptable, understanding to the people you work with as well and I think yeah the main thing from my hollow's experience with it is your background doesn't define the rest of your career. So we came from different routes but you can often be quite similar. You know me and Holly had very different experiences. She's quite maty I'm not maty she did a computer science degree and I didn't but when it comes down to it when we work together we actually are very similar and we communicate in really similar ways um and just kind of stereotyping people or you know treating everyone like the same is never going to work. You need to be adaptable and you know I guess overall it shows there's no one right way to become an engineer and there's also no one right way to be an engineer. So um yeah definitely use the skills that you've you've got from your previous career but I think just keeping it like a human level always be wanting to meet someone at the way they feel comfortable and yeah like for me at Holly that's meant we've had a really good working career together and like a really strong friendship out of it as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah yeah and also um landing in an environment where um that's encouraged and asking questions um is encouraged and uh um Emma that the way that you said you just communicating things in a clear way some companies that's not encouraged and questions are not encouraged and I had a conversation um this week with a lady about um psychological safety in the workplace and it is so important because she was saying if you don't feel that you are safe at work you don't speak up because you know change isn't going to happen. So things like that if somebody's trying to bamboozle you with something because they're trying to make themselves feel good about what they're explaining to you, you're not going to ask questions or speak up because it's not going to bring about any change. And in your mind you've already thought oh what's the point you know but there are certain environments where asking questions um and not talking down to people or new people that are trying to learn something new is really fostered and and you can tell those people stay at those companies for a long time for a reason. And out of curiosity have you experienced anything like that in the past you don't have to name the companies but have you experienced teams where you've been like no this isn't for me. I mean you both stayed in in tech and at Daniel for a reason obviously yeah I've I've personally not again I've only really been at Dunarm.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

I've heard of people who have had similar experiences I think because I did the boot camp you kind of go off and lots of people go into different uh companies you know you kind of start off together in the Co first girls boot camp but you often go to separate companies and the instructor who we had has sometimes kind of passed on bits of information and you know sometimes people have had a bad experience um I think a lot of people with management as well if they don't really know to handle them and how then handle their way of learning it can just be really detrimental. But I think with Dunham like I've always felt very psychologically safe. I've always been very lucky to have strong mentors around me men and women who kind of believe in fostering a safe space for everybody. And a lot of it just comes down to just people being nice and you know having chats after stand up and asking questions and if you notice someone wasn't feeling very good in a meeting just messaging them. And I think yeah Dunelm I guess like you said people tend to stay in companies where they feel comfortable so I guess that's how that space has been fostered. And even when I've seen little bits of individual kind of behaviours that I'm not a huge fan of in terms of like the intellectual leadism or kind of gatekeeping it's on such a minor level and I think a lot of people challenge it. You know I've never had pushback when I've asked people to simplify things. If anything sometimes I think they'll kind of explain something I'll ask them to do it in a simpler way and I think they realise in their own head like why am I actually overcomplicating this? And by working with all those different kinds of people and having that diversity of thought it does change how you work with people often for the better.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Yeah definitely and um Holly I can see you nodding along I take it it's been your same experience as well. Just feel free to ask questions. I don't understand what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

I've only ever worked at Denal as well but I've definitely heard horror stories of of a companies not having such a safe space I think one thing that I enjoy about Dunelm is it does feel like quite just a community of like people and it's not just you're an engineer, I'm like a principal engineer, we never talk that's not how it works at Denalm like there's been a problem that me and Emma have worked on in the past and we got completely stuck but the more senior engineers our team went in so we had to reach out to other people and I think we ended up with like two principals in a core with us and they were completely stumped and we were asking them questions too and that was quite nice because it felt like we weren't just an engineer and a principal it just felt like we were just a group of engineers working on a problem together and I think that's something Denon do quite well of extracting away of this hierarchy and it's more just we are just one big team and like collaboration.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Especially if they were feeling stumped as well that's going to usually go it's not just us then so um based on that then what advice would you give to someone considering a career change into tech versus someone following a traditional degree path?

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Yeah I'll uh I'll go on the career change probably if I went on the uh traditional route that would ruin the whole point of this podcast I think we have to be a liar but um yeah someone who did a career change so I would say tech is so much more than coding um there are a lot of roles where you will never have to code a day in your life um but at the same way I would say don't be discouraged by learning to code. I do see this advice given a lot you know you don't have to know how to code and I do think it's a good thing because it does break this myth that you know you have to be technical to look in tech. There's lots of roles like business analyst and product manager where you know being organized and being able to analyze things really well will mean you can have a really successful career in tech without having to know how to code. But I think sometimes you don't have to code can come across like you shouldn't even bother trying to learn how to code. And it definitely can contribute to this illusion that coding is really difficult and you shouldn't even bother trying it. And that isn't true as well just as you know true as it is that you can be not technical and have a strong technical technical career you can also be not technical learn and become technical and also have a you know a hugely successful career. So I'd say definitely explore careers around software engineering. It doesn't have to be software engineering there's plenty of roles for plenty of different mindsets. But if you do like the idea of learning how to code don't be intimidated and don't be put off by people saying that you don't have to because yes you don't have to but you can and I never regret going down that route even if I might have technically been more suited to a different role maybe like a product manager for example I never regret learning to code. It's something that gives me a lot of pride that I push myself to do. And I'd say don't be held back by not fitting a stereotype don't let stereotypes decide where you belong that they're stereotypes and they're often not even true. You know I I thought that everyone that did a computer science degree would be really you know massy and and like nothing like me. And then I met Holly who's very similar to me, different backgrounds but it just shows how pointless stereotypes are. And also the soft skills that you have from your previous career, you don't have to throw them away. They have immense value. Software engineering isn't just coding it's being an effective team player it's mentoring other people it's collaborating to solve problems. The experiences you have in your previous career will probably and I'm I'm probably saying almost definitely will make you into a more rounded engineer and you don't have to disregard them. They are part of you and you can use them in software engineering as well. And whilst a degree will give you the depth in theory a career change means you have a breadth in perspective so both paths are valid and both of them can produce great engineers. Don't be like don't be put back and don't be compare yourself don't compare yourself to people went down a different route everyone's doing their own thing um and if you like the idea of coding give it a try it's really fun sometimes not fun a lot of time fun I don't regret it um and yeah just give it a go because you never know you never know what you can achieve.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

I love that yeah it's such good advice and and the transitioning over I I hear a lot of um community members say when they went over um to tech that it's almost like you realize yeah you don't throw everything out that you already knew you actually come with all of these great skills that you've already learned by you know being a couple of years ahead of somebody else because you know the workplace for instance that's something you have to navigate when you first get in work anyway. And yes learning to code a brilliant foundation anyway if you do learn and then you decide it's not for me or it is for me, just a brilliant foundation to have and um to challenge yourself in that way. We always encourage community members to start with something free going to an event or trying something free or finding your network of other people that have done it and can signpost you in the direction of good things to test the water because sometimes um when you think yes I'm going to sign up for something, it can be really time consuming to go to a boot camp that is very expensive to then discover maybe that's not for me. So it's always good to hear from people that have done it and actually found it valuable and then you know came out the other side and thought that's definitely for for me or not for me. And also to test what what you'd like to do in coding as well there's so many different things that you could do. So to decide what actually is it about it that I do like and and um what I might like to pursue or not pursue. I couldn't agree more is brilliant um uh advice. Um Holly yourself advice somebody from a traditional route what would you um tell our uh community members?

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah I think um for a more traditional route of going to university and getting a computer science degree my advice is like making sure you're making the most of your time with your degree and exploring the different options for tech because a lot of people see you could do computer science and then you go to software engineering but that's not the only route you can take into tech. There's like many different roles within tech like data analysis and various other ones as well like game development it doesn't have to just be strict software engineering. And I think while while I was at uni I didn't have that confidence of looking out to different areas and I was a bit scared to branch out into different things. And like I said it wasn't until it was actually in my third year and I learned web development that's when I fell in love with coding. So my advice would just be like making sure you're taking on those different opportunities and if you get a chance to learn something new I would say take it because you might find yourself going into a career path that you didn't know existed before and you've realized that's something that you want to do. As well as another thing to keep in mind is make sure you're following your own interests as it can be quite easy when you're at university to pick a module because all the other friends are doing it or all your friends are applying software engineering. So I must do that too. But in reality there's many different options and something might be better suited to you. So yeah my advice is to make sure you're following your own path and always thinking about what you want to do rather than what the collective are doing.

First Year Lessons And The Learning Curve

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah that's really good advice especially I'm always really impressed by those that spend their summer um interning somewhere and trying to figure out their path um I didn't do that during my summer at university so I love it when I hear people that are trying to figure out what's for them and you won't have your uni friends with you you know they're they're uh doing something else in the summer um so yeah finding your own career um path and following that route I I love that advice um looking back on your first year in tech what's one lesson or insight you wish that you had known when you got started yeah I'll start um so I think for me is like you don't need to know everything.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Even the most senior engineers don't know everything and that's perfectly okay as well as like it's okay to ask ask questions like I've asked more and more questions every day over the last year and I think you just need to remember that everyone around you isn't judging you but they are in fact there to help you because you're all working on the same problem and trying to push the same project. But it's also okay to want to push yourself and learn new things. But I think it can be easy to forget that problems can't be solved overnight with like the snap of your fingers. Some things will take longer to learn and that's okay like if it says takes longer for me to learn something than Emma because we all learn completely differently at the end of the day. But what's important is we've both taken our time to fully understand the problem rather than just rushing to the finish line. But yeah so for me before I joined I didn't really know anything about cloud computing and I was quite scared to even start looking at any back end ticket that we'd worked on. But I think what helped me before I picked up a ticket on this was I had this learning time and I spent my learning time learning a few different AWS resources so I could have a basic understanding. And then when it did come to picking up my first ticket I actually heard of Emma and we found it really helpful that I had this practice beforehand but I also found it helpful that I could have someone explain it in a way that I knew I could understand.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

And after that first ticket I learned that it wasn't as scary as I thought it would be yes I like yeah I love that again an environment where you have somebody that you can turn to do that together have learning time all of that space that you need to develop in your own career. Sometimes when you find yourself at a company none of that happened you're not going to pick up the tickets scare you you're never going to grow and eventually you're just gonna jump ship and go to another company. So yeah being in an environment where you you feel you can um do that and if it takes you a little bit longer it really doesn't matter um as long as you learn and uh and grow. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Emma, your first year what's one lesson or insight that you wish you'd known when you started yeah I can't think of one solid lesson it's more like little pieces of lessons altogether but um yeah I guess what Holly said exactly the same sort of feeling there that not knowing something it doesn't make you stupid or doesn't disqualify you. Like it's totally natural every start from somewhere and comparing yourself to people with years and years of experience is just a totally pointless exercise. So take things at your own pace. Don't be embarrassed ask all the questions you need to I think like you said earlier um people are often afraid to ask about acronyms and that sort of thing but if you're thinking of a question there's probably someone else in the room that's also thinking of the same thing. Like I'm embarrassed about an acronym during a refinement once in it for a ticket and the product manager who was reading it out didn't even know what the acronym stood for. So a lot of people are just kind of operating under this illusion of like I hope no one calls me out because I have no idea either. And by asking those questions you are like kind of creating this environment of psychological safety. You're saying I'm happy I'm open to put myself out there. I'm gonna ask this question and more people will then feel comfortable and you'll then eventually have a kind of culture where people are just open curious and they don't feel silly. So um yeah I wish that uh I'd known not to feel stupid. Um again I wish I'd sort of known that I didn't have to dismiss it. My earlier career I think I was so keen to dive fully into software engineering that I thought I had to disregard everything else and I definitely disregarded my soft skills because I thought software engineering was an area where your hard skills what matter you know your technical skills but more and more I find in my career now the soft skills are what helped me set uh set myself apart. So you don't have to disregard any of that. And then I guess the final thing which is probably the most important and the biggest one I can think of is it's gonna suck sometimes and that's okay. Like I I had some real low lows. I remember one of my friends from the boot camp showing me this graph that says about coding confidence versus competence. And the idea is at the start you're learning new things, you're flying, you know, you write hello world, you're like I'm a genius, it's great. And then after that honeymoon period ends and you really expand your knowledge and you start to learn about cloud computing you know Holly mentioned and these bigger concepts your confidence just plummets off a cliff. So even though your competence is still growing because you're still learning your confidence is just like right rock bottom. And on this graph it said the desert of despair and when I find myself in that desert of despair it was awful and I thought I've just I'm not getting any better, it's getting worse but progress isn't always linear. It's not always going up or down. It can go you know up and down constantly you don't pull it off of a cliff and abandon all that knowledge that you had and have to claw your way back up. And some days you'll struggle more and then other days you'll feel amazing. Like I would have days where I would say I'm a coding God, which is a sentence that genuinely came out of my mouth once. And then other days where I would be on the edge of tears or even crying. And but that just means that it obviously means a lot to you which is why it affects you so much. So the lows will be low but the highs will be high. So just be kind to yourself track your progress so you can see how far you've come surround yourself with allies and friends and people who make you feel good and it will boost you up when you're feeling down. And sort of like Holly said when you're trying to think of like what modules to do and stuff always pursue things that interest you and will help you progress. Don't compare yourself to the people and just yeah really fight for your own career and um go for what you like and what kind of gives you that spark.

Final Thoughts And Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yeah I love that that is such good advice for the people going into tech because that that feeling um it does that the the ups and downs and especially being on the wrong team where when you are down like you said surrounding yourself with the right people it sometimes things go wrong and that is just a natural part of work and being on projects and learning. But if you're on the wrong team and you've always got somebody that's like just going to throw that person under the bus, like brilliant. I felt really good. I felt terrible about this anyway but what you just said didn't help. And so sometimes being on teams and dealing with um you know when things do go wrong and how you deal with that as a team as well can be such a learning curve because the RIE can feel very low sometimes does not help when you're when you're on the wrong team. I think that feeling as well of um that uh asking questions and um feeling like um Holly you mentioned it at the start about feeling like you have to know everything. You need to step away from that feeling that actually it it stays with you always because I've been told that by a lot of people when they step into leadership they feel exactly the same way that you're expected to now suddenly know everything because you're leading the team and you're everybody looks to you because you must know everything. And actually it's a very very lonely place. So if it's something that you master all the way through asking questions I don't need to know everything everything's a learning curve by the time you do reach leadership you're it's natural to you to be able to do that and not to take everything on and just internalize it and think I'm meant to know everything because I now look after the team um it's uh it's it's not a good place to be. So it's brilliant to hear that um users are allowed to ask questions feel like you're allowed to ask questions and um have each other and uh the rest of the team at Dunilm to muddle your way through and when you do find things difficult. But by the sounds of it both of you I hope you would agree seem to really love your job and enjoy the idea of picking up tickets and making sure that you've got you know a challenges that you're working on. I can see you both nodding and smiling so that's that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

It definitely depends on the ticket to be fair sometimes some some days there are days when you go oh geez so I'm going through all those periods right now but the great thing is that period will end soon and soon there'll be the next nightmare to deal with or dream. Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 48:50

I think it's good to remember that ticket's not something you're gonna be working on every day for the rest of your life. It'll probably be on in a month's time and you'll be doing something completely new.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Yeah I feel like it right now but it will be gone soon sometimes I see notes that I wrote to myself from tickets from like six months ago and I can tell that was in the pits. But yeah you quickly move on and then you quickly have the next win that in like sprint review you're like it was me. I did this or like me and Holly paired on this great thing and there's always you know kind of there's always new things to be doing as well so you don't you don't have to sit in the misery for too long. But you know it's like every job. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad but I don't think for me there are any regrets. Yeah I definitely love my job.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Amazing well that is a lovely place to end this on because we are already out of time. Um it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with both of you so thank you so much for sharing your very different journeys into tech. It's been a pleasure um and for everybody listening as always thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.