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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Tech Journeys & Future Frontiers: A Wise Women in Tech Roundtable
Join us as we delve into the inspiring journeys of women in tech with Wise. From their unique introductions to the tech world to personal stories of triumph and challenge, discover how their technical roots shape pivotal product and team decisions today.
Explore the industry's current landscape and future outlook as these trailblazers adapt to emerging trends, paving the way for innovation and diversity in technology.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
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Hello everybody, thank you for joining us on Spillin the Tea. We have a very extra special episode today. We are here with some incredible ladies at WISE. We are going to be talking about tech journeys and future frontiers. My name is Kayleigh. I am the managing director at Sheikan Code. And this is Spillin the Tea. So we are super excited to introduce our panel today to hear a little bit about what they do, how they got into tech, and why they love working here at WISE. So without further ado, I have Sarah, Ayushi, Rena, and Nivy, and they're going to tell us a little bit about themselves to get started. So Sarah, shall we start with you? Hi everyone. My name is Sarah.
SPEAKER_04:I'm a technical product manager here at WISE. I've been at WISE for a little under two years, and I work on our in our platform engineering space. So think tools used by other engineers. I initially got into product management outside of just coming out of university into a rotational management program. And I'm originally from Philadelphia in the United States.
SPEAKER_03:Hi, I'm Ayushi. I've been a product manager for four years, two of them at WISE. I work on our WISE platform team, so our enterprise integration team building APIs and technical products for developers. So my audience is developers. Yeah, and I'm also from the US. I'm from California.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, I'm Rina. I also work in WISE Product, but specifically on the Swift product. So helping our customers send money internationally when we have to use the Swift Rails. So imagine a furniture shop in Estonia trying to pay their supplier in China, for example. So trying to make this experience better for them, faster, more convenient, and transparent, because it's like an old way of sending money. Like why WISE was founded in the first place is to kind of get rid of this. But there still exists a lot of this need for customers. So yeah, trying to improve this experience. And I have been in product for a year and a half. So quite new to this role. And I'm originally from Estonia.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, I'm Nivi. I'm a product manager here at WISE. And I also started my product journey after university. Started with an internship in my final year and then kind of got into it from there. I did product management at a fintech firm in Chicago before moving to WISE. And at WISE, I've been just over three years now. I lead teams in onboarding at WISE. And right now we're actually working on very different things. So I manage a PM who is launching the under 18 product right now. So it's very cool. And also different experience for me as a product lead. And I myself am working on pricing plans. How do customers price and value our features and how can we package them? So very different than what I've been working on before. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So one thing that we absolutely love to hear about at Sheikankoda in our community, we're always asking questions about each other inside our community. We'd love to know a little bit more detail about how you got into tech. We love squiggly roots, traditional roots. We don't mind how you got in, but we just love to hear um how you got there. And also, what were you like as a child? Did you know you wanted to go into tech? Did you take things apart in the house? Were you that child? Um, or did you just happen to fall into it somewhere along the way? So we'd love to hear your journey.
SPEAKER_04:So I wouldn't say that I always knew that I wanted to be in tech. I think as a child I was interested in a lot of different things. I think the first thing that really got me excited about tech or engineering in general was a physics class that I took in high school. Um, and that just got me really excited about thinking about how the world works and sort of the science behind it. Um, although when it came, when it came time to go to university, I wasn't 100% sure that was what I wanted. So I initially started my university route in just the sort of generic College of Arts and Sciences and was kind of thinking about different routes there. Um, I was gonna be pre-med for a moment. I feel like we all were at some times, but um then I was sort of missing that like hard science and kind of feeling like I wanted to get back to it. So I decided to transfer internally at my university to the engineering school. Um, I ended up studying bioengineering at school. Um, and then I stayed on for a fifth year to get my master's in robotics. So I wanted to even go deeper into the technical side of things. However, it's funny because now that I'm in tech, I feel like I've pulled, or now that I'm in product, I've pulled a bit away from the technical side because as I was going through university, I wanted to kind of wear different hats and have the opportunity to think more deeply about the customer experience or think more deeply about the business value of things and not necessarily just code or, you know, sit at a lab bench all day. So that's what initially attracted me to the field of product management was being able to work on really interesting technical problems, but also approach them from lots of different angles and use different skills in order to drive value.
SPEAKER_03:Cool. Um, I kind of was born into it because I was born in Silicon Valley and so surrounded by tech companies everywhere, like the grocery stores would have experimental tech from the companies around. Um I've been exposed to it my whole life. And when I was a kid, I used to try and make websites, editing the HTML, like very basic stuff. But um I think that's sort of what piqued my interest. And then I studied computer science in college, um, didn't really know that much about PMing because that wasn't a major. Um, and so when I got my first job as an engineer out of school, that's when I learned about what the PM role is, and um, I was sort of really attracted to this idea of why I'm doing what I'm doing. Um, so that's why I decided to make the transition.
SPEAKER_00:Uh and my journey starts, I guess, a bit similar to both of you guys. So uh when I was seven, Estonia got its first unicorn, which is Skype, and my dad actually worked for it. So I kind of had this um experience as a child seeing all these people working in tech, uh trying to figure out how to solve difficult problems, right? So, and I also kind of love uh adding concrete steps to madness. So this was like uh something that I was kind of prone to do. And then I also loved math and physics in school. So when it came time to go to university, I actually uh combined my love for sciences with technology. So I started biomedical engineering, and then uh after university, I actually was a software developer for a medical device, which was uh for the NHS, and there we basically launched from zero to 100 within a year. So it was like my first experience building something from scratch, but also getting feedback straight from the customers. And I think what I learned and took away from that is that you can have the prettiest code, the cleanest code, it can run super efficiently. But ultimately, if you're building something that doesn't solve the customer problem, it doesn't matter. So then I kind of realized that that's some uh that area is something that I want to be closer to to actually impact that and to influence that. And then WISE came out with its first product academy. So it was basically taking people from non-product roles and giving them a 10-week boot camp to speed run all the basic topics of product. And um yeah, so I applied for this, uh, managed to get in. It was like five of us who started, and then ultimately at the end, it was the goal that you can be a PM at WISE. Um, and uh I successfully completed it, uh, worked in the EML domain for a bit, so the anti-money laundering, and then was really lucky to be able to give them the chance to work on our Swift product. So that's what I have been doing for this uh last year. But yeah, it it has been a journey definitely, but I also think that I wouldn't be here if I didn't see practically how software gets developed and maybe not in a super efficient way.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I got into very very similar to everyone. I started some version of my interaction with uh tech in schooling. So I took computer science in 11th and 12th grade in India. You could do that, and remember building like a tic-tac-toe game and just thinking this is awesome, and also this is how it works. So the immediate response loop was kind of cool. Um, understanding that complex things are actually just made by people, it was really eye-opening for me. I hadn't really seen anything like that before um growing up. In college, I rode for the Michigan Daily, and uh I remember going from writing to thinking that our website is so crap. So a couple of us just got together and readed the entire website, and that was kind of like my first experience kind of building something, and also we use Jira for fun, uh, which I tell my teams today they laugh about it. Um so that's kind of how I got into it. I did declare computer science as a major, that's a thing you do in the States, but ended up getting very interested in philosophy and asking the why questions quite a lot. So I ended up majoring in computation and cognition. Um, so it was like computer science, but philosophy, psychology, and linguistics. Uh, that was kind of my journey getting into the technical side of things. And um really enjoy that uh like technical conversations uh with my engineers today. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Amazing. I love that. I love as well that you all had you all studied tech, which is so interesting to me because some of our community members say they don't always have good experiences at university, or sometimes their studies turn them off then going into the tech industry. So it's very um encouraging to hear that you all made it out of university and that you actually wanted to go on and do that as a job. Um was there anyone along the way perhaps that inspired you? You all took that education route. Was there anyone that kind of at school that you thought inspired you to go into that that topic or at least kept you going through through that route to make it into tech? And I suppose my other question is once you left university and went into tech, was it everything you thought it was gonna be when you were at university, or was it a bit of a baptism of fire?
SPEAKER_04:Um, I think for me, so at least at my university, um, in terms of like the gender balance of different majors, um, I was in bioengineering and that one was actually quite equal. Um, so I think that's part of the reason it kind of maybe was a different experience, and maybe some of the people in your community is like there was that representation, and I had a lot of female friends and a lot of close friends from my major that kind of got me through it. I wouldn't say that there was necessarily one person that I like looked up to that really that changed my path, but I definitely had multiple inspiring, you know, female professors. And also I generally think that like my my friends in my community really helped me think about what was possible and um see what they're doing and and get inspired by the hard work that they put in. Um, in terms of kind of what I thought it was gonna be versus what it is, um I wish I had a spicier answer for this, but I do actually think it it met my expectations in a good way. Um I think um there's always gonna be different challenges about just entering the workforce as a young person that you have to adjust to. But overall, um very pleased with you know the experience working in tech and working with really great people, having really great benefits and solving hard problems has all been really satisfying.
SPEAKER_03:Um, I guess similarly, there wasn't necessarily one person, but there is a professor I can think of who led a course where we um in my final year of college, where we had to basically work at different companies. So you would be in a group and basically for the whole year, you would do a project with a company and we worked with a major Japanese tech company in the area. Um, and that was sort of my first taste of like actual corporate life. And there was one realization that I think I had, which was things are a little slower when you're working in a company than when you're just writing it on your laptop in in good ways. Um, but I think that was also a bit of an adjustment of like, okay, there are actually processes, there are things that I need to follow, ways that I need to write the code that are expected. Um, so I think that was my main finding.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, I think for me, I also kind of had enough support around me to be driven by by the people around me uh in school. And then I don't know, I feel like I'm very deterministic. So the fact that I didn't really see um someone in my position necessarily uh didn't deter me from trying to be that myself. Uh and I think in Estonia, it's really cool that we do have like a lot of female founders. Uh so I was kind of looking up to them uh in that sense. And then when I entered the workforce, yeah, I can totally agree that you kind of get hit by this reality of what it is actually to build a product and to put it live. So uh the fact that you can you can kind of do your best, but it still isn't good enough. So you can't impact every single variable that there is. Um but somehow you need to figure out how to make it work.
SPEAKER_01:So similar to I think everyone here, I don't I don't have one person in mind really. Um, I think I drew inspiration from a lot of my peers because I always thought, man, like they say that it's tough, but also there's all these people doing really cool things. Um, so there were women who were, you know, both from like airing grievances to being the fewest in some, you know, senior level class to also like starting like founder, like they had I had friends who had started like um like houses for founders to come together in university. And um, you know, there was a range of people doing different things around just what they liked. So just focusing on what you like and like chasing that was such a great way to see people kind of um change the narrative. And uh I do think it's intimidating. Um I think as you as you grow in different roles as well, you tend to see female kind of similar to school. I don't know if you guys saw this or not, but as you grow, it's like there are fewer women around. So it's kind of nice that actually we don't have one person that we've evolved around because uh we're kind of defining our own paths. And um in product development itself, the art of it is uh you get immediate feedback, but sometimes the feedback is not what you expect. Um, so really listening and understanding who the final user of your product is and uh driving benefits for them um is such an objective way to kind of develop and uh kind of form a career around. Um so yeah, I'd not not a specific person and kind of agree with what folks are saying that uh the craft in itself is very different than schooling, of course, um, but also very objectively driven by like data and people using a product.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I love that. And and it's always good as well that there is sometimes that shock when you come out of university. And it's good when you get the experience with another company or you do an internship or something like that that kind of bridges that gap a little bit because it can be and not just in tech as well, just going into the world of work can be quite a shock anyway to the system and dealing with the politics of what comes with going into a workplace and working on teams. Um, I wanted to ask you a little bit about working in product, obviously. Um, so how has your uh technical skills or background influenced the way that you approach product or team decisions today? Is there anything about your background that you think has influenced that?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think 100%. Um, so for me, as I mentioned earlier, I work on pretty technical products. You know, our users are engineers. So being able to sort of be technically fluent and communicate with other engineers in a way that makes sense to them, communicates the value to them is really important. And I also think one of the most important jobs of PM is being able to craft a narrative around the product you're building. Um, and so being able to understand deeply like the technical nuance of what we're delivering and then communicate that into a narrative that includes, you know, the business value and the why is definitely a really great power to have as a PM.
SPEAKER_03:Um there's a couple things that I think have helped. One is similarly, I do work on a product for developers, but they're actually external developers. And um I think I've been able to build a deep empathy for my customer because I used to be one of those developers using these APIs from another vendor. Um, and so I have a good sense, I think, of what I would have liked. And obviously that changes and evolves, but I think um I'm really more easily able to put myself in my customer's shoes. Um, and then also just because it is a technical product, um I'm able to sort of be the first line of defense for my team. We get a lot of questions from our customers or from internal teams, and I'm often able to look at logs or something to be able to answer the question without involving the engineering team. Um, so trying to sort of allow them to focus on things while I can answer more simple technical questions.
SPEAKER_00:I think for me, I often go back to super basics. So, kind of what am I giving? What am I trying to solve for? What are the constraints? What is the metric that I'm trying to move, which should kind of give me an indication of the customer problem that I'm solving? So kind of having this like super structured way of thinking about the problem, and then um understanding the customer, of course, and keeping the focus on the biggest problems that we're trying to solve. And I think like the technical background itself has kind of given me more independence. So, for example, when it comes to digging through data, I can be more independent and not rely on the analyst so much. Or when it comes to figuring out how our routing algorithm works, for example, I can actually look up the code and not have to ask the engineers. So it's kind of it helps me move faster and be more independent, but it's definitely not the requirement to do this role at all. Uh, and I think also there's a flip side to this. So, kind of as an engineer, your code either runs or it doesn't. It does what it's supposed to or it doesn't. So it's very binary. And in product, we often don't have such clear answers. Like when you launch a new feature, for example, yes, you have like metrics in place and you know what you want to move, but sometimes it's not super obvious. Is it going in negative or a positive direction? Like, what are you supposed to change? So that's something I struggled a bit in the beginning, just to get into this different mindset. Um, and now I actually enjoy that challenge and that ambiguity. And uh I think the technical background also has given me a better way of uh weighing up technical challenges. So when it comes to like shipping really fast versus building for a scalable uh solution, I think I kind of can make those judgments a bit better. Uh, and I hope my engineers would agree with that. Um, but yeah, so that's my experience.
SPEAKER_01:It's really cool to hear how every role is different, but we've all find like different kinds of benefits coming off of it. Um I uh found one of the things that I used to think was a great advantage was oh, this will help me gain trust with engineers. Uh, but very early in one of my earliest roles, I got feedback from my engineers that I was too involved in engineering, so you could also swag completely on the other side. Um, so I've been on both ends of the spectrum. At WISE, when I started, I spent I was in a role where I was spending about 40% of my day actually writing queries and uh scripts to run those queries. So if you're a product manager in finance, I think a technical background is really awesome. Uh, and your output and your products are things like ledgers. So you work very heavily with backend engineers. Years. So in it depends on the team. I think today the find the things I find I really enjoy are being able to question with a little bit more confidence like why are you doing this? And bringing it down to very basics of why is the service needed? Why do you need to work with X Team? Um, at WISE in consumer products specifically, there are several teams and very many dependencies between different teams. Because when you launch a feature, you're touching this screen, this home screen, that flow, and they're all owned by different teams with different engineers and different PMs. So you can question a little bit more to simplify like engineering thinking. Um, I also found that similarly, I can be a first line of defense in certain scenarios. I can represent certain decisions we make to use X API versus Y API, or um not waiting for another team to finish building something new to remove dependencies. So things like that I find that I'm able to do better. But also kind of echoing what's been said before, it's not a requirement. It should not be a requirement. And the key thing is not feeling like it's a requirement. Uh, just being able to question and get down to the basics. I generally find that everybody appreciates it, even if initially it's like an annoying way of working. Once you get down to a way of working where you always ask each other very basic things, um, you can get around not being technical. It's really not a requirement.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, definitely. And um, a lot of our community members, they they well, once they find out what the role of a PM is and they realize then they don't have to be technical. That's kind of the place where they want to go. We get loads of people who ask us about um which courses do I take, what do I study? And you think you have to go down the traditional, have to be highly technical. And some of us, we just don't work that way. And then you think, but I can still work in tech, and it does have its its um advantages as well. Rena, you were saying it makes you a little bit more in independent when you do need to do something, so it is there, but it you don't necessarily have to have that, and really the main thing is that people forget about are the soft skills because lots of you all it sounds like all you do is communicate with lots of other people all day, and that's really the most important skill, all the soft skills that you have, and then the tech skills obviously are a bonus on top of that. But there are so many people that have that misconception about coming into tech, have to be techie, and that that they're the only technical roles that are available, and that is it. And actually, there are lots of other fantastic roles as well, like PM, where you don't have to be highly technical. But is that was that a misconception that you had, or were you quite like this is this is definitely for me, or did you think every role in tech was gonna be very techie?
SPEAKER_03:I actually thought the PM role would be a little less technical, my specific one than it was. And that's not to say that you need to have technical skills, but like um the these are things that are fairly easy to learn and honestly often differ from company to company, like how the logs look and how the structure is, what the microservices are, aren't the same everywhere. And so it almost isn't really helpful to have a specific technical background because you just have to learn it again.
SPEAKER_04:Um I'll also just add, I think it's super role dependent and super company dependent because there are going to be roles that require some more technical knowledge, and that's usually very clear from the way that job description is written. But there's also roles where it's not going to matter at all. And your superpower might be, you know, your empathy or it might be your the way that you think about design, and that can really deliver more value. It's super dependent on the role.
SPEAKER_00:And just to add as well, I think curiosity and just having the will to try and wanting to learn is the only thing you really need. So, and then finding a place where it suits you. So, kind of playing to your strengths. There's definitely a product out there, there's definitely a team out there which matches your skill. And I think as PMs, like you wear many hats throughout the day. So even if you're strong in something specific, you still need to learn uh and convert to another way of being if you're dealing with a different type of customer or a different type of problem or different stakeholders. So I think, yeah, just having the curiosity and the willingness to try is all it takes.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. Yes, don't have to be always have to have the technical skills and um being curious. So it's something that you take throughout your career and something that you really do need in tech because you have to keep continuously learning, um, which actually leads into what I wanted to ask you next about continuous learning because there are um there's always shifts happening in the tech industry. So I wanted to ask you what are some of the biggest trends or shifts that you're seeing in the tech industry right now and how are you adapting to them?
SPEAKER_04:Basically, um AI is is huge right now. Um, so I think that over the last couple years, you know, we've seen LLMs dominating, you know, ChatGPT just becoming ubiquitous. And I think it's really changing the workflow for PMs. Um, and I think it's definitely something that here at WISE we're trying to stay on top of and create communities of learning, encourage our PMs to use it more in their day-to-day tasks. Um, but I think that's by far the biggest trend that you know I'm seeing and trying to stay on top of.
SPEAKER_03:Um, definitely plus one to that. But I think another thing that I'm seeing is companies being more product-led. I think um in the past like five or six years, um, we've gone to a lot of companies hiring PMs at really early stages, which I think maybe didn't exist when I was first entering the workforce. Um, and so I think it's become a much more, I guess, like ubiquitous, but also maybe interesting role.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh I definitely agree with um both of these. Um, but maybe to illustrate the AI or the automation side a bit more. So I use day-to-day uh AI, whether it's for research, um, figuring out what competitors are doing, uh, figuring out uh, for example, uh from customer feedback, because customers often give us feedback in free text form, and then you have to kind of go and read through to figure out the themes, but now using LLMs, it's much simpler. So kind of the these tasks, and then in product as well. So, for example, WISE recently launched a feature where you can upload an invoice, and then by optical character recognition, from that invoice, your transfer gets created automatically. And I actually used this to pay for my Jiu-Jitsu class, and it was really like this magical experience. Like I was actually like, wow, it's really cool and convenient. So it's kind of we are trying to obviously help our customers move money in better ways, and you kind of have to keep on top of the emerging technologies to be able to have these awesome experiences. So I think that's uh one thing. Um, but overall, like how I approach, because everything will always change, like new things will always come. And I think again, it's this like curiosity and oh, I want to try out this new tech because that's the best way I learn, and then I figure out how it works. So um, yeah, I think that's for me.
SPEAKER_01:Not gonna add anything new. I think we've all been trying to use AI day-to-day in our work all the time. One of the frequent beginner things I've been suggesting to my parents to do as they start engaging in LLMs and wondering what the hell is going on with the world is just ask how you can help, like how the prompt can help you, or how whatever LML LLM you're using can help you. So um, that has been interesting for me to see unfold there. Um, within WISE, there's generally a big push for us to use. Like during product day, we had a big exercise around using AI for various different things, uh, analyzing customer feedback. And um, I don't remember the others, but that was the one I did. And I remember thinking, ah, we've we've been doing this. This is good. We did product lunches where we've been talking, different PMs have come and shared. And uh big shout out to Mark Mark Sheldon. He's uh I work with him uh on uh some of the onboarding work on business, and he's always sharing tips with me on how he's using AI. He will always turn on uh transcript during our meetings and make sure that he sends the AI version and his version afterwards uh to me in DMs. So really appreciate that. Amy Dicketz is another example. She's been uh using um LLMs to kind of put together wireframes for different, uh like interactive wireframes or different product ideas and having a conversation around that. So you that kind of removes speaking of independence, like removes dependencies around design and lets designers focus on you know the things that they actually need to deliver, and you can focus on ideation, early stage ideation a little bit more. I also want to give a shout out to Jen. She's also a female product manager here at WISE, and she worked on the invoicing feature. She has also been working the invoicing feature that you were just speaking of, and she's also been working on uh, you know, building out uh different versions, like iterations of the product um of using OCR to do other things uh through using um LLMs as well. Uh I think that that that really is it. Like on a day-to-day basis, there's various different types of use cases where you can use AI. And um if you're not sure, just ask. Um, there's simulations you can do of if you're going into a meeting, feed in XYZ person will be there and try to estimate like what kind of questions they will have. So there's very, very different ways in which you can do this. And would recommend like Lenny's podcast, for example, has very different use cases from different PMs who share on how to use AI for your different use cases on a day-to-day basis.
SPEAKER_02:Nice. I love that. And it it sounds as well that you have quite a variety in your day and that when things are shifting, it it you've fallen into the right company where you're allowed to try new things and you're allowed to grow. Um, and and uh your your day job sounds quite quite varied. Um, and I think some of that is falling into the right company and being in a culture where you're allowed to do that. Um, she can code, we always talk about cultures that are not built overnight and that there isn't a silver bullet for something, and suddenly you're uh you're allowed to um try new things. That's something that is built into a company's DNA. Um, and it shows obviously in uh the projects that you work on and the the people that work there. Um I wanted to ask you a little bit about advice. Um you are living and breathing it, and you're in the industry and you got there. Um, so what is your advice to other women who are looking to um expand in their own roles in tech or might be looking to go into leadership or might even be looking to go into tech for the for the first time? Do you have any advice for them?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so I think um my advice is also going to touch on AI. Um, but I think one thing that's really cool about a lot of the AI tools that are coming out is they really democratize development and being able to actually ship products without maybe having that deep technical knowledge or being an engineer. And so I think especially for women or anyone who's are in roles where they're not doing product or they're not, you know, getting those quote unquote hands-on skills, there's an opportunity to just in your free time like take an idea you have and try to make it with, you know, vibe coding tools and like take it from ideation to deployment and like get feedback and just try to like product manage your own project. Um, and then you can use that experience to talk about in interviews as like really just interesting um experience that you've had that can demonstrate skills that you might not be getting on the job. So I think taking advantage of the you know cutting edge tooling that we're seeing provides a really good opportunity to build those skills for those that are maybe getting exposed to it in another way.
SPEAKER_03:Um I think in since the product role varies so much from company to company and team to team, sometimes domain knowledge is more important than just PM skills. And I think PM skills are often really easy to learn, but the domain knowledge um is important. And so if you've been in a domain that's non-technical, um maybe building products for people in that space would be a good fit. Um, that's how I got my start into PM. Specifically, I was working in HR Tech and moved to a company that was doing HR tech and needed someone who had some of that domain knowledge. So I think the domain is a good place to start.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I also think that building is the best way to move forward. So kind of you can read a lot of different product books, for example, if you want to get into product or watch YouTube videos, but ultimately to build this intuition and way of making decisions, a process for yourself is through doing. So whether it's taking a little problem that you have, something that your parents are struggling with, or a friend, and trying to just solve that problem end to end, I think that's key. Like, yes, it will take quite a bit of extra time. Um, but if it's something that you haven't done before and it's something that you want to break into, I think that is like super critical. Um, and then the ability to explain it to another person. So doing it yourself, building something, learning from it, uh, and kind of being able to explain it. So I think that's one thing. And then if there's like one specific technical skill that I could recommend, I think it would be some querying language like SQL, for example. Because I think, yeah, the data uh understanding is something that the industry in general really looks for. Um, because a lot of the time the decisions can't be made just by talking to customers or just by looking at data. To get the full picture, you need both sides of the coin. So kind of I think this is uh critical. Um, and then yeah, the curiosity and just trying. So oftentimes people get um maybe deferred from applying for a job or if they don't fulfill all the requirements, especially women. So I think it's just trying to go for the interviews, trying to find people who have done something that you want to get into, just taking them for lunch, even like that's what I did when I first uh was thinking about joining WISE. Uh, I got another product manager to just take and they took them for coffee. So just to like see if it's something that uh uh would match with the way I am and what I want to do. So I think yeah, it's like talking to people and being proactive uh and knowing that it will take some time, but ultimately if you put in the effort, you will get there.
SPEAKER_01:I think I'll echo everything that uh folks have said here. Don't be afraid to try things out, build. It's so easy today to just ask AI and um have a partner, creative partner to co-create with at any point and any time without any delays at your own pace. Um, and you know, not have to feel shy about it. And um, in terms of building knowledge and understanding what are different companies looking for, what were different people looking for, um, try to have a conversation. I think people are very, very especially in tech, folks are very open to help. Um, people love sharing their knowledge and feeling valued. Um, so you know, there's I think if you reach out, people are very open to talk. So building domain knowledge by exposing yourself. And if you have a structure on how you're building things already, running people by running people through that and understanding how they've made decisions and how you can change how you make decisions based off of that. Um yeah, getting started has never been easier. And uh just find that little bit of courage to reach out to people and um, you know, get curious about the domains you're interested in.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I love that. And you're right, it's sometimes it's just ask, you can ask and it's fine. And that sometimes you there is that misconception as well of going into work anyway, but going into tech that you think that you're uh you can't ask or that you're going to be working on your own a lot and you're not going to be able to, um, you're not going to be around a team. Um, and a lot of that is complete rubbish when you get into tech and you realize that you're not working on your own all day. Um, you can ask questions if you fall into the right company and the right team, um, then that is very, very easy. And we uh haven't mentioned it today, but something that always comes up is imposter syndrome, where we just sit there in our own little world and think, I'm gonna get found out, somebody's gonna find me out, and that you can't ask questions and uh grow within your role and your team, but you definitely can, especially if you land in the right company and that culture is there to enable you to do that. Um, ladies, I could keep picking your brains about this all afternoon and more about your jobs, but we were already out of time. That was absolutely flown by. So, thank you to all of you for coming on, spill in the tea, and having a chat with us. It has been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having us. Thank you. And for everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for joining us, and we hope to see you again next time.
