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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
You Belong Here: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
Join Amanda Whicher, Technology Director at Hays UK&I, as she delves into the complex world of imposter syndrome. In this insightful episode, Amanda explores fresh perspectives on how to overcome feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt in the tech sector. Drawing from recent research and her own experiences, Amanda sheds light on practical strategies for tackling imposter syndrome head-on.
Whether you're new to the industry or a seasoned professional, Amanda's expertise will inspire you to embrace your strengths and confidently navigate your career. Tune in to discover why you truly belong here.
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Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Kaylee Batesman, the Managing Director, Community and Partnerships at Sheikh Code, and today we are discussing overcoming imposter syndrome. I've got the incredible Amanda Witcher, UK and Ireland Director of Technology at Hayes with me today, who is here to explore some fresh perspectives on how to overcome feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt in the tech sector. Welcome, Amanda. Thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Kaylee, and thank you for having me today. I'm delighted to be here on a subject I'm very much passionate about.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my gosh, I'm so pleased that you wanted to come on and talk about this subject because it is something that our community talks about a lot. So we have a lot to unpack today around this topic. So it's a pleasure to have you here. But can we start with a bit of background about you to set the scene?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, perfect. Um, so as you say, I'm UK Island Director for Technology Business at Hayes, and I've been here for 17 years, which I'm not quite sure. I know it seems to have flown by. And my career has definitely evolved over the last 17 years. And um, obviously, being on the other side of tech, so obviously the work that we do is very much supporting organizations to um really attract tech talent um across you know a lot of different organizations. And over time, as I say, my role has grown, but very much mirrored actually what a typical female in technology may have experienced over the last sort of 17 years. I started my career and was surrounded by men, both in the workplace but also from the clients I was supporting. Um, they were all men. Um, and really I've seen the evolution of the female representation across the industry over the last sort of 17 years. But equally, I'm really passionate and always have been really passionate around diversity, equity, and inclusion, which obviously has gone through lots of different acronyms over the last 17 years as well. Um, but for me, um, you know, I am really passionate around how we can support so not just about attracting female and women into the industry, but actually how can we really support them on their journey throughout their sort of career? Um, and over the last sort of 18 months, we've actually set up our Women in Tech Connect program, which um is now across 10 different locations in in the UK and is uh ever spreading, which is positive to see, but really is about creating those communities and how we can support and challenge ourselves um to do something different and to maybe challenge some of the barriers that we face as well. Um and I think imposter syndrome um is one of those things that definitely is felt by a lot of not just women, as we will explore today.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes, I completely agree with that. And and you're so right, actually, when you when you look back at the shows like 17 years ago, even the the conferences and the exhibitions, um, I noticed a change only recently. And those kind of shows, I mean, I used to cover things like data centers and like really technical subjects, so they'd only you know there'd be a lot of guys at those conferences, obviously. But I noticed over time they really started to change, and suddenly there'd be a queue at the ladies' toilets, and you'd be like, wow, I can chat to ladies in the queue at the toilets, whereas years ago you couldn't do that, there'd be just absolutely no one around.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, it's a hundred percent um is the case, and I think that representation has definitely improved over time, but equally, you know, if you look at it actually quite often, you still see a sea of men and a handful of women. Um, but I think there's definitely been some positive changes, and I agree, really, over the last couple of years, probably more so than ever.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, definitely. Um, and and we we've got so much to cover today because um imposter syndrome is felt by a lot of people, male and female, is something that our community talks about a lot. Um, and sometimes it's a relief that other people are all feeling the same way that you're feeling. Um, but to start with that today, how do you personally define imposter syndrome and when did you first recognise it in yourself or others?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's a biggie to start with, isn't it? Um nice language question. I know. I think it's a really interesting one because I think when we look at imposter syndrome, it immediately has a negative narrative, I think just by the very wording of it. Um, and I think you know, that's one of the things actually that I think we probably over time need to try and look at how do we identify imposter syndrome, how do we articulate it. Um for me, you know, imposter syndrome at you know, isn't all negative. Um, but quite often I think it is the um negative internal stories that maybe we give ourselves um that really, I guess is the definition for me personally. Um I think it's where we feel a lack of self-belief and and potentially fear um that maybe we don't have the expertise or the ability, not just in the workplace. I think equally a lot of mums, first-time mums face imposter syndrome, don't know how to be a mum. Um so I think you know it it goes beyond the workplace. Um, but I do feel that you know it's the negative internal stories that we give ourselves and and how they're sort of interlinked. Equally, um I do think that it's not all negative. And actually, for me, you know, I learn, you know, from every sort of women in tech um Connect event that we do and all the amazing females that we bring together and the stories that they share and the different perspectives that they give. Actually, my view over the last 12 months of of imposter syndrome for me personally is that actually I'm using it as a way to challenge myself. So I do often I come out of meetings and I think, oh, could I have done that better? Or oh, I don't think I'm doing quite what I need to be doing. And then, but actually, rather than seeing it as that negative, I'm seeing it as okay, well, what can I do better and how can I improve? And I think it's important in any, you know, in anything in life where there's a negative, we try and look at that to challenge ourselves and look at things differently. And I think getting those perspectives from others are really important, but I think the perception of imposter syndrome itself is is negative. Um, that's the first part of the question. I haven't even got to the second part, have I yet? Um, how do I recognise it in myself and and drive um myself forward? Um, I think I catch myself quite often. Um, I know the role that I'm doing today, you know, I'm the first female at Hayes doing the role that I'm doing managing all of our technology business. Um, I've definitely, you know, went through my mind, I don't think I can do this job. I'm not sure that I've got the skills to do this. But what I've learned over time is that actually I have more skills than I realize, but it's only through challenging myself that I've been able to push forward and learn and develop. And I think often we look at others and think that they have all of the experience and skills. Most people in life are winking it in some degree. Um, and it's just getting comfortable with understanding that I don't have it all. I'm on a journey and I'm continuing to learn. Um, and for me, that's what makes me a better leader, a better person, um, and better at the job that I do.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. Because that's one of those things that I wish somebody had told me when I started work that everybody is winging it in some way. There is a fine balance because you can't wing it to the point where you really don't know what you're doing. But after you've been in work a little while, you just notice that some people are better at covering the fact that they're not quite sure, but they're going to go off and find out. And that's a kind of there's a there is a balance because you you're so right with um challenging yourself because imposter syndrome isn't that, like you said, that negative internal voice where you're like, I can't do this, I shouldn't be here. Sometimes it is there to protect you as well, to just think, yes, I could push myself and challenge myself, but sometimes it's also good to listen to that voice and think, actually, maybe this isn't the place for me, and maybe I can't do this, and maybe I should try something else and challenge myself in a different direction. So it's it is always seen as that negative voice. It's always like, you can't do this, but sometimes you should just listen and think, actually, I could challenge myself or I could try a different direction, or and that all of that is just fine, and it's not negative saying that you shouldn't be here, it's just you know, maybe listen to your needs a little bit more. And the more that you've been in work, the more you realise actually I can move around and I can learn new things or fall into the right company that does develop me in the way that I'd like to. Um, but you're right, it is always seen as a very negative voice that is always saying to you, you know, people are gonna find out, everybody's gonna find out, you can't do this.
SPEAKER_00:And it's interesting because one of one of the females at our recent event says, you know, is it imposter syndrome? Is it that we're seeking perfection? Because as females, we tend to always want to do things well and do a good job. And so sometimes, you know, that's where that negative narrative comes in, where we don't feel that we've necessarily done a good job or we've not done it to the best of our capability. Um, but life isn't perfect, and and humans aren't perfect. Um, and so I think rather than seeking perfection, as you say, it's more about what you can learn, but but being more in tune with yourself and and what yourself is is saying, and and how do you cut through some of that negative noise as well, which I think is really important um for everyone.
SPEAKER_02:Because it's different for everyone, like you said, it's some people look like they find everything absolutely easy and a breeze, and they might not, they're just covering a bit better. But also, that doesn't mean that that particular person's journey is suited for you either. And like you just said, there, there's always that perfection. You have to be, you know, you have to look at the executives and the CEOs and think that's what I'm meant to be doing, and actually that's not true, and you might be thinking, I feel like uh an imposter in this really senior role, and it's probably because you felt pushed into that role, and it was something that you didn't even want to do, but you just went for perfection, and actually, it might not have been suited for you anyway, so it yeah, like you said, just listening to yourself sometimes and being more in tune with what you would like to do. Um, I'm curious about uh your experience growing up as well, as in terms of like what was that like at school? Do we pick some of those negative feelings up before we've even entered the workplace about technology and kind of what we think it's gonna be like if we study it at school? Is it a negative experience? Like what was yours like?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, um, really interesting. I've I've never really thought about it like that. But I think, you know, I think as humans, we all know, you know, babies enter this world as I guess as pure and they're really shaped by everything that is around them. Um, and I think, yeah, definitely for me, I mean, I was really fortunate um in terms of, you know, my mum always worked um throughout my sort of childhood and you know, really strong female and a leader in in the work that she did, not in technology. Um, but um, you know, actually, I think I had that role model from an early age of someone who always believed that no matter what I did was gonna I was gonna be successful. Um school was really mixed for me. Um I was never you know the highest achiever, um, but I worked hard and you know I always sort of got through. And technology, interestingly, wasn't really something that I was necessarily fascinated by. And and all equally, I think it was very different. Um, so you know, when I was sort of growing up in um I won't say my age, but in the late 80s, early 90s at school, um, you know, technology, we had floppy discs at that point in time. Um, you know, so we didn't have the technology, we had pages, and you know, the first iteration of the Nokia mobile came out. So I think, you know, we a lot of people, I guess, have grown up in a in a similar era, which I think is very different to today. Um, but I think our understanding of technology today is very um more, much more advanced at a younger age than what I sort of experienced. And I just fell into it. Um, I don't even really know how, um, going back 17 years, it just sort of seemed to happen. And but one of the things that I did find is that I absolutely loved it and was fascinated by it. Um, you know, I loved the pace of change. Um, I definitely like to be in challenging situations, and obviously trying to understand and and learn technology is so vast and is continuing to evolve. And I think that's one of the things that's really kept me doing what I do today is the passion for technology and how that's sort of evolving.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, definitely. You sound like so many of our community members are like, I don't know how it ended up in tech, but here I am. And and you're staying, that's the main thing that people fall in, they don't know how they get in, um, but they fall into the right company as well, where they feel like they can keep progressing and growing. And that's the great thing about being in technology that is constantly changing. Um I wanted to talk to you about some of your research uh that has been happening at Hayes, um, exploring imposter syndrome in the tech sector. What were some of the most surprising or concerning findings from that research?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I think it's a combination. So the research has come out of our employment trends spring update um report, which is part of our um salary and market insights guide that we produce every year. But because of some of the changes that have happened, um, we did a bit of spring update this year. Um I think, firstly, how vast imposter syndrome is, um, but actually the the variation between men and women isn't as big as we thought. Um, that definitely was one of the things that that sort of surprised me. So our research showed that 68% of female tech professionals have faced imposter syndrome at some stage in their career, and men 61%. So actually, going to the point that you made earlier, some people are better at covering it up than others. And I think um, you know, women possibly don't mask some of that stuff as well as others, or don't wing it as well as maybe our sort of male counterparts. Um, but equally, you know, more than a third, so about 36% of people working in tech said that imposter syndrome um has increased as they've progressed their career. So as they've moved up that leadership ladder, actually they've felt that imposter syndrome probably creep in more and more over time, which again I think alludes to the point that you were making earlier around, you know, as you know, people become more senior and um potentially are exposed at different levels across an organization, um, where maybe we don't have the skills or we're not used to engaging um at that sort of level, that that's where imposter syndrome can definitely creep in. I also think for me, um that one of the um key issues that we have in technology. So again, actually, when we looked at imposter syndrome, it it was more prevalent in technology than any other industry, which isn't surprising. I think one of the reasons for that is um, and we had a really interesting session actually um last week that I was running, is you know, we've come from a world where we had quite general tech skills, right, in in terms of the roles and and how people were structured across an organization. Um, whereas what we've moved to over the last sort of five years is much more specialization. So specialization within data, within cyber, you know, and and really going in deep into those specializations within those areas of technology. Um, and I think there's this constant need that people feel that they have to have all of the technical skills to have the conversation, and they have to understand every element of it. But if you went to a CEO of an organization, they wouldn't understand every element of their organization and all of the workings that happen across all of their disparate teams across the organization. So I think you know it's how we start to shift in you know our own narrative in terms of understanding we don't need to know it all. We don't need to have all of the technical skills to manage a cyber team, we don't have to have all the technical teams to manage an architecture team as we move up that sort of leadership chain. That's why we hire those experts because they are the experts, and we can't be experts in in everything. Everyone will tend to have one or two areas where maybe their expertise really sort of lies. And I think it that's okay. And I think understanding that that's okay for a lot of people um is one of the things that maybe they haven't quite got their head around. And I think that's one of the reasons why imposter syndrome creeps in as people move up that leadership chain.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, definitely. And that yes, I I felt that way actually, but I've heard lots of um other uh community members say to me when they moved into leadership for the first time, it was quite a lonely place as well, because you feel like you almost can't say that you're feeling that way because everyone now, you you've got the role, right? You've got the position, everybody thinks you know what you're doing, so you can't ask, and also um that you know everything because that's why you got the position. So, and after a while you realize that's just a load of rubbish because you have brilliant people on your team who know all the ins and outs, like you just said, and you don't have to know all of those things, you just have to know the things that you need to know as the leader. Um, but so many people go through that little moment where they start stepping into leadership roles where they're like, I'm expected to know absolutely everything, and I can't let on that I don't, and actually you're not, it's just a ridiculous thought.
SPEAKER_00:That's what your team is for. And I think it's funny, isn't it? Because partly I think, you know, what do we need leaders for? We don't need leaders to always give us the answers, but we need leaders to help others find those answers. Um, and I think the emotional intelligence and and empathy is what makes a great leader not knowing the answers to everything, um, and actually working with their team to find those answers or to find those solutions. Um, and I think that's one of the things that really maybe we we haven't quite fully understood in terms of our own expectations of what a leader is, which is often shaped by the leaders that have come before us. So those people that we've worked for. Um, and I think sometimes we feel the need to emulate others, and you know, this the leader that was doing that role before was exactly like this. But ultimately, we're all individuals and we're all people. And the reason that you've been given that role is because of you, not because of your you need to be X, Y, and Z type of leader. So I think you know, the more that we become confident in our own ability and that we are enough, that I always say that to people we are enough, you are enough, it doesn't matter who you are at what level, you have a voice, your voice is important, and you are enough. And the reason that you're in the role is because of you, not because of the technical skills, because the technical skills we know, you know, only takes you so far. Um, and actually, you know, from other research that we've done recently, the soft skills and the ability to adapt to change, the ability to communicate um internally and actually have empathy and emotional intelligence are just as important as some of those technical skills as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, definitely. And those technical skills, and because I wanted to ask you a little bit about um career progression and and how um, impossible, I mean tech, how how it can impact career progression, but it can also affect just people coming into tech in the first place because those technical skills, a lot of people they tend to say, Oh no, I don't have that, I haven't taken this boot camp or I don't know where to start, or it's too overwhelming, and I'm meant to have all of these technical skills to go into this job. And actually, what a lot of companies are looking for is exactly what you just said the soft skills. They're looking for people that are a sponge and are willing to train and learn new things, but they're also looking for people that can communicate and have all of those soft skills that you have to have within a team. Um, but that stops people coming in and then also progressing as well, because they just think I'm not techie, I can't I can't work in tech. But um, it's not useful for women, I suppose, who come into tech and then and might leave around mid-career level, is it? They kind of think, well, that's it. I've kind of got to mid-career, I might be off to go and have a family, for instance, or or um have other commitments. Um, and then they might have that imposter syndrome feeling, they feel like I'm not overly technical, and then they exit. It's not massively useful.
SPEAKER_00:I I think the interesting thing that that sort of feeds into it is because tech is evolving at such a rapid pace, um, that further um cements some of those challenges. I think for females, especially if you know they've got caring responsibilities, they have to take time out, or they've gone on maternity leave. That imposter syndrome um definitely starts to bleed in because the reality is that the technology and the technology stacks that exist in organizations may have completely transformed over that 12 months. And so, therefore, maybe they don't have the skills or or as much of those skills that align to, you know, before they had whatever the career break is that they've had. Um, so I think you know, it can't, you know, I think that's where technology differs to other industries and other types of roles because of the evolution that we're seeing. Um, but I think um it goes back to the point you don't need to, you don't need to have it all. Um, but equally, I think it's really important to um understand and appreciate the skills that you bring to an organization. And some of those are those soft skills. And I think being really clear in terms of what you do bring, um, that will renew your own confidence um rather than again focusing on the skills that maybe you don't have and looking at how you can upskill if you have taken a career break really to help sort of aid that journey. Um, but equally, um, and we may go on to this in a bit more detail later, but um, I think it's really important that you know there's also a call to organizations as part of this. Um, if we don't create true inclusive environments where feet where people feel that they have got the opportunity to speak openly about what they're feeling, we will never solve the challenges that we have in terms of having diversity across technology. Because, you know, as females specifically, we face so many things throughout our life that we have limited control over. Um, you know, so whether that is hormonal and menopause, whether that is caring responsibilities of our elders or children, going on maternity leave, all of those things um do not confidence of females, but where you have got um an environment or you've created an environment within an organization that allows people the freedom to express themselves, that express their concerns, their worries without fear of repercussions or impacting people's views on their ability to do their job, we are creating another barrier for females. So I think it's a really important thing that you know we've got to take accountability of ourselves and how do we overcome some of those negative inner critics or stories that we give ourselves. But equally, we need to work for organizations that understand us, that want to invest in us and want to support us on our journey because we have a hard slug as females. We really do. Um, you know, and and and the menopause, obviously, there's a lot more being spoken about in terms of the menopause, but that really does knock a female's confidence, you know, their brain isn't working in the same way as maybe it was pre-menopause. Um so you know, being able to be able to express that and offload, I think is a massive thing to help build that confidence so that people can continue to progress their career.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, definitely. And to have that environment where it's okay for you to say I don't know in meetings because or I don't know, but I can go and find out for you is okay. And certain companies are very good at that. There is a balance between I don't know because I don't know my job, and also I don't know because we haven't covered that, so let's go off and find out the answer. There are some really good companies that that can really strike that balance. I remember being at an American company that was very curious about everything, and that meant that the team were very curious. So we could say, I don't know, but let's go off and find out. As long as it doesn't cost us a load of money trying to find that out, let's just go off and give it a go. And they were very um, they they really encouraged the team to stay curious, and it's okay that you don't know as long as you go off and try something. And we do that actually, can cope with very test, test, test, test. If it doesn't work, drop it, test something else. But it means that you get in that feeling of it's okay that I don't know everything. So go off and try and find something, and and then actually you find that um, as an employee as well, you go further because it's okay that you don't know everything, but you can go and find the answers to it. But you're right, having that safe space to say, but I know we haven't tried that. You know, technology moves very fast. Of course we haven't tried that. AI, loads of people talking about AI. There's loads of people out there thinking, how do we use this? How are we gonna do this? But it's okay to say, actually, we haven't used that yet. How are we gonna use it? Instead of people in a meeting looking at you thinking, oh, you don't know.
SPEAKER_00:You know what's interesting. Obviously, you can't have any tech conversation these days without mentioning AI. Um, but it's really interesting. I was having a conversation yesterday, and uh there's so much hype. And I think that's the other thing for technology. There's so much hype around different technologies and and various other things. Take it with a pinch of salt because the hype outweighs the reality of what's actually happening, you know, especially when we talk about AI. AI we know is going to be a transformative technology, but it's not transforming technology today, if I'm being honest, across most organizations. There's small instances of it, but there's not these huge, we've become an AI, um, AI-led technology organization. Um, and you know, fundamentally, because I think you know, some of the hype around AI and you know, the amount of jobs that are going to be lost, I think that's another thing that probably is also feeding imposter syndrome. And that reality is again isn't right. We've just done our um contractor day rate search um research that we do every year. And um, one of the things we wanted to understand this year is in in terms of what are people actually implementing in terms of AI, but equally um what are the drivers behind it? And actually, the largest proportion, um, 31% of people are implementing AI to improve productivity of their employees. So again, you know, sometimes with these things, don't always listen to the hype that's in the media because it's not always a true reflection of what's happening on the ground in SME organizations, which make up, you know, a pretty large population of um the technology industry today. Um, yes, those larger enterprise level organizations, maybe, but mostly corporates, they're not as far forward as you know you would think. Um, so again, don't let that sort of feed in that you know, I must know about AI because the reality is that most people across the organization don't yes, and does people chuck in in jargon around it?
SPEAKER_02:And then again, you have that feeling of like, yes, there's a hype and I don't know about it. I noticed at our conferences as well. Had an editor years ago who said to me, When you sit in the keynote, take it with a pinch of salt because you'll have the keynote speaker who is running up and down the stage, sweating, talking about new things, new releases, everything is amazing, and everybody's clapping. And then you come out, and if you just speak to anyone on the show floor, walking around the exhibition, hey, did were you in the keynote? Are you using that? Are you doing and normally they turn around and go, No, we've all had our budget slashed. Do you think we're doing that? No, we're nowhere near it. So usually it's it's listening to those keynotes, but once you go and talk to the people that are using it in their IT departments, you're like, nope, no, no, we're absolutely not.
SPEAKER_00:Quite often people use jargon, complex words, because they actually don't know what they're talking about. So sometimes the receiver thinks, oh wow, they've got all the technical knowledge, but actually the reality is they're just using buzzwords, and actually, it's covering up for the fact that they don't know everything. So, again, you know, I think with with everything, you've got to sort of take things with a a little bit of a pinch of soul because actually, going to a point you made earlier, so you don't know what's going on inside someone else, so you think. Externally that they know it all, they've got it, they've got it all down, they've got every angle sort of covered. I mean, people would probably look at me, you know, across my business and think that, but I really don't have it handled half of the time, and I'm you know in the background trying to figure it all out. Um, and so the reality of what we see isn't actually always what's happening internally of someone else. And I think as people, we we look at others and and maybe we're we're seeking validation, but we look at others as a guide of how we should be, yeah, but you never know someone else's internal critic.
SPEAKER_02:No, you do not, and I have I've actually enjoyed discovering that around public speaking because I always hosted public speaking, and I would always just run from anything that was to do with public speaking, and I've noticed being at a company where I can't run from that, and we have to host events and and it is all really good fun, and I've grown to really enjoy that. I've also noticed that now I have to introduce other speakers onto the stage, and when I'm prepping them beforehand, the things that they say to me, I've started to realize everybody else is feeling exactly the same way, but they're covering it better than I could in the past. So I've had speakers say to me, like, you know, you're in the presentation, I'll introduce you, everything'll be fine. And they'll go, Brilliant. If I want to exit and I need an exit to get out of this because I'm not feeling like, you know, I can't cope with what is happening or I'm feeling a lot of anxiety, what is the exit strategy? And I thought, so many people have asked me that. If they want to exit their presentation halfway through, what is the plan? Can you step in? Can you just cut it short? Can you move to the next speaker? And I thought, how many other how did I not realise everybody else is thinking exactly the same thing as me? And I was thinking, what is my exit strategy? I need to get off of stage. Everyone was thinking it. So I kind of really enjoyed that and hearing that when you do step into that really scary thing that you thought was your internal voice was like, Don't do it, you don't want to do it. And then other people were saying the same thing. You're like, actually, yeah, people were just covering it better than me.
SPEAKER_00:That was um sometimes it's externalizing your inner voice, right? If we don't externalize it and don't show vulnerability, we don't quite realize that everyone else is feeling the same things as us. Um, so we feel quite often that we are alone with it, but actually the reality is that those people that you look up to probably do face some of the similar things. So I think again, you know, a strategy to have a think about, you know, what you can do and and how can you potentially help or impact yourself today is go and have a chat with someone else about how you're feeling. And I think you'd be surprised at the outcome, whether that's a man or or a female, actually, they probably are feeling similar things. You know, people just aren't perfect. We might see them as perfect, but they really, they really aren't. And you know, I think equally, you know, it's about challenging yourself because I remember on the public speaking front, I hadn't done it before. And my first experience was like getting on a stage in front of 200 people. And um, I remember being, you know, in the office floor and having to do like office sales days and bringing the team together, and my hands would be shaking like a leaf. And um, I stood on this stage and I was talking about a subject that one I'm really passionate about, but I also know no nerves whatsoever. As soon as I started talking, the nerves just went, and I realized, oh wow, I can actually do public speaking. So I just had no idea. And had I not have pushed myself out of my comfort zone, I wouldn't have known that either. So I think, you know, again, how you push yourself out of your comfort zone, you know, don't say you can't do something unless you've tried it.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, exactly. It it was the thought of it, the thought of I can't step out there. And and I like now being in a position where if somebody says to me, I'm gonna have a moment and I want to exit. I like being in that position where I'm senior enough that I now lead the event that I can step in and say, it's fine, like I'll take over. No one in the audience is gonna know that you have exited early, only I know because I know what you were gonna say. And I can step in because I know that awful feeling of I gotta go. It's like flight or fight, like I've gotta go, gotta go. And I think it's fine, like go. I can step in now, it's fine. But you almost it dawns on you what other people were feeling, and that that feeling of I can't do it, and just pushing through it. I I wanted to ask you about that and strategies. Do you do you have other strategies to kind of think how do I overcome imposter syndrome? Because sometimes it's not always just just do it, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know it's easier said than done, isn't it? Like with all of these things in life.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I think is a bit of a reality check that sometimes imposter syndrome isn't actually a reflection of the reality. Um, and sometimes, you know, we are just being hard on ourselves because potentially we're seeking perfection. So I think you know, becoming aware of what you're, you know, what you're thinking and and feeling is really important. Um and I think externalizing that where you can, either with family or um with other people at work, because sometimes we just need another perspective, right? To get that reality check. I think that's really, really important. And the more that we vocalize it, you know, as an individual, the more those people around you will start vocalizing it, and the more that all of a sudden some of these things will start to wash away because we won't realize they're quite as big as we think they are. Um secondly, I think focusing on what you are good at, what you have achieved. So let's just say you've been managing a project and um you know you're implementing a system, you've implemented the system, it's not gone exactly as you wanted it to go. And there's been, you know, challenges along the way. But rather than focusing on the challenges and what you could have done, focus on the outcome and where you got to, um, I think is really important. Um embrace your imperfection because we're humans and we're not perfect. Um, and we all make mistakes. And making mistakes, frankly, is the only way that we learn in life. If we didn't make mistakes, then we wouldn't change, we wouldn't adapt, we wouldn't move forward. Um, so I think that's really important. Um, and I think, you know, equally when it comes to it, I guess from a world of work perspective, if there, you know, if you are feeling really insecure around certain skills that you don't have but you feel that you need, or maybe you're looking at moving up the sort of ladder, but you don't feel that you've got the skills, start looking at how you can upskill. So what are the strengths of the skills that you've got, and actually, how can you start to upskill? How can you ask for more work internally to help aid your sort of development? Really putting yourself out there, I think is really important. Um, it's like everything in life, um, you know, where the fear of doing something is far greater than the reality of actually doing it. And actually, once you overcome that fear, the reward is even greater. Um, so try not to live in the fear, I guess is what I'm saying, and and and challenge yourself to overcome it. Um, and I think you'd be surprised at some of the outcomes um that you may get as a consequence. And I think just being vulnerable, I think especially for females, um, and I know you know I speak to people all the time, and and some people say even when they work with other females, they feel like they're in competition, and actually they feel that they can't be vulnerable. But but who can you be vulnerable with? Who do you trust in your organization? Um, because I think again, what you'll find is through your vulnerability that one you start to upskill, but equally those around you don't see those vulnerabilities as a negative, they probably see it as a positive, and sometimes we just need that external affirmation, and that's okay as well. Um, but you are enough. You know, if there's one thing someone should say to themselves on a daily basis, you are enough. That's it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just brilliant advice to to take a step back sometimes and remember that. I remember all the things you've done in the year and how far you came as a team, and the good and the bad things, and and how you learnt from them. We have um quite a lot of attendees to our hackathons who are not technical and um some of them work in technology, but they work on like product management teams and they come along, or some of them work in marketing, they come along to our hackathons just to um stretch themselves. They know that it's not going to be, you don't have to be highly techy, you don't have to know how to code, we have mentors there to help you, but just to hear um some of the language about you know how the tech teams work and to understand a little bit more about the vocabulary of the teams that they interact with. And um, some just come along to push themselves for that reason because they find themselves in meetings where they can't quite understand what's being spoken about and how things come together. It's not their job to understand all of that, but they just wanted to feel a bit more in the know. So they'd come along to our hacker farms, work on a project for the day, we complete strangers and just kind of really go out of their um comfort zones and then present at the end of the day. And a lot of them didn't have the intention of becoming technical, they just wanted to feel a bit more comfortable in meetings when they hear people talking really, you know, technical jargon. Um, which is a brilliant way to push yourself and do that again with the you don't have to know everything, you could just be a bit more comfortable with what people are talking about in their roles as well, and find an environment where you can do that. Yeah, which is how do you how do you no? I was gonna say so how do you support colleagues that are feeling like that? It's the other thing, though. I mean, you can't always step in and be like, is everything okay with you?
SPEAKER_00:I know. Um, and and it's a difficult one, right? And it and you know, there's so much that um is talked about in the DENI space, um, which obviously is really important. Um, but I think for me, culture is not about HR or a DENI team and what they're implementing, it's about the people on the ground. Um, and I think you know, being able to create an inclusive culture fundamentally is driven by every single person on the ground, it isn't built by someone in in HR. Um, and so you know, I think step one is you being open and and talking because I think that then helps. So I'm always very open as an example if I use myself. Um I'm really open about the challenges that I have with my child because he actually got it finally, finally got his ADHD diagnosis um on Sunday. On a Sunday, had to go and get yeah for an ADHD assessment. Um Lucy got it, you know. But I'm really open about talking about how we manage neurodiversity in in our house, which obviously then allows other people that have got experiences around neurodiversity to then be able to have that open conversation that maybe they wouldn't typically do. Um, so I think really sort of you know, leaders leading by example with some of that vulnerability and and sharing um maybe some of the challenges that they faced, I think is really important. Um, creating communities, um, having mentor schemes, mentoring and and allyship is is really really important from an organization perspective. Looking at how you can support your employees through mentorship and and reverse mentoring, I think equally is as important. And I know Sheikh and Code have a mentor scheme as well. Um, but really exploring some of that, I think is important. The other thing that I talk a lot about in terms of all of our women in tech events is is um allies in action. It's very easy to say you're an ally, but what are you actually doing as an ally? Um, and what action are you are you taking to support that community, whatever that community is. Um, and I think that's really important that we have a much more proactive conversation across organizations around allyship, um, because I think that's one of the things that is missing across a lot of organizations. Um, ultimately, it's about how we better support people and you know, enable them to bring them their whole selves to work because that's what we should be able to do in the day and age that we live in. Celebrating successes, let's not focus on what hasn't gone right, let's focus on what we've achieved and what we've delivered. As you say, you know, how often do we get to the end of the year and really review all of the big wins that we've done with our teams? Um, those sort of things. Thank you, thank you, go such a long way, and is the freest, easiest way to give someone a lift. And quite often we don't do that. And that might be thank you for being an amazing person. Um, that might be thank you for putting a smile on my day-to-day. All of those things I think actually um are really important to people on a day-to-day basis, just receiving that nod to say, thank you, you've done a good job. I really appreciate you because appreciation, I think, definitely feeds into the confidence um of people. But you know, we've just got to create more inclusive, safe environments.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, where people want to stay. That's the thing. Because I love everything you just said, especially about taking action. There are so many companies that we see that want to do the tick box and they'll do the oh, you know, we we just want to put your logo on something, and that's kind of it, or they'll do like one IWD tweet, problem solved, and they think that's solved absolutely everything for their culture. Whereas the companies that get it right are the ones that when you do need to ask for like you need to say, I need to go on Mat Leave, or I need to take time off, or even asking, I'm gonna take two weeks off on holiday, is that okay without being made to feel guilty? Those companies that are actually like, go away, shut off, do what you need to do. Mat leave, no problem. Caring for sick family members, no problem. But the ones that it's a feeling that when you do need to ask for those things, that it's okay, it's without question, go and do what you need to do. And they're the ones like yourself, where you stay 17 years, instead of companies that complain that they can't even attract the right women in tech, let alone retain them through two leadership roles. Because I I hear that all the time, where some companies are like, yeah, but how do we actually do that? And how do you actually help in doing that? And it's like, well, obviously, we help in lots of those things, but it's also your job as a company to create that culture through lots of different initiatives. Shikan Code can help um in one way, and then obviously partnering with lots of others for um retention reasons, but it is a it's not an overnight fix, it is a feeling that companies some companies do very, very well, and some companies really just keep looking and thinking, I don't know, well, how we're not nailing that.
SPEAKER_00:I've got a really um terrifying stat for you, um, which came out of one of our reports um about I think it was about six months ago now, that um 50% of people who took a new job last year um within tech left due to culture. Yeah. So, you know, we're people, you can't fake it till you make it when it comes to culture and creating an environment which fosters people. Like you feel it, you live it, you breathe it. Um, and I think that's exactly right. The organizations, it's not a tick box exercise, and it certainly is not a tick box exercise when it comes to females. Females have a view, they have a voice, they have a perspective, they bring something different to an organization. And if you think that a tick box of doing something on International Women's Day is going to solve your cultural problems, then you need a serious reality check because you need to support your workforce. It's as simple as that. And whatever the needs of your workforce is, it's your job to do that. Um, and it's about how you go on a journey with that, but also how you have that open conversation with the workforce itself. Um, you can set up all the initiatives in the world, but actually, fundamentally, if your people aren't brought into the direction of travel you're you're you're driving, then it won't work. Um, so I think it's uh you can tell I just got really passionate on that point. Um, but I just think it's so important. We can't we band the word inclusivity around like it's um you know sliced bread these days. And the reality is that it takes a lot to create that inclusive culture and it and it comes from the people.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. And most of it, you you're so right, it does that inclusivity is is thrown around. And then when it actually comes down to it, that action of doing things and keeping your promises and letting people be flexible and go and do the school run. We trust you, you're an adult, that you're gonna come back and you're still gonna work hard. And all of those things on the first season of this podcast, somebody said to me, it's more than Slack group, it's not like we've got a women in tech slack group, problem solved. It's far more than that. It's a feeling every day when you do come to work and when you do need to um ask your employer for something or you have a need that they actually listen and they actually um take action. But um, I could keep talking to you on this topic because you can tell we're both very passionate about it. But I wanted to ask you um one final thing. If listeners could take away one key message about belonging and imposter syndrome from today's conversation, what would you want it to be?
SPEAKER_00:Um you are enough, as I said earlier, but your voice is just as valuable as anyone else's, and you deserve to take up the space that you are taking up in tech. Um, I think that is, you know, absolutely pivotal. You are there for all of the right reasons. Whoever you are, and I guess that you know, you as an individual also lead the path for others to follow. So if you don't start to challenge yourself, those around you won't challenge themselves. And I think we have to pave the way for the future. Um, I think that's really, really important. So be vulnerable, share your story, put yourself out there, challenge yourself. Um, because when you do that, you will see that others around you will follow, and that in itself will be hugely rewarding. Um, and you are amazing. I think that fundamentally, whoever you are and whoever is listening, you are amazing and you are enough.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I love that. That is brilliant advice. And even the thought that others follow, when you set that example, and when you move into a position where you can set an example, doing things like leaving to do the school run, whether you're a male or a female, that comes from the top down. When you see management doing that, that it's okay to do that, then others will follow.
SPEAKER_00:So making sure that Yeah, don't hide it, don't hide it in the background and pretend you're busy in another meeting or you've got something in your calendar. Be open and honest because that does path the way pave the way for others 100%.
SPEAKER_02:Everyone else on the team, exactly. Um, thank you so much. I could keep talking to you. We've had another run sheet, I would keep going. Um, but Amanda, thank you so much for taking time out today to talk about imposter syndrome. Um, it's something our community asks us about all the time, and we're also passionate um about. So thank you so much for for joining me.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for having me. I've absolutely loved it. Um, and equally just as passionate as your community are um around it, and um hopefully, you know, there's some positivity that comes out um following those that listen to this. So I appreciate the time.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely, thank you. And to everybody listening, as always, thanking you for joining us, and we hope to see you again next time.
