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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Flexible leadership: Balancing career ambitions with family life
In this episode of Spilling the T, we sit down with Helen Johnson, the newly appointed Managing Director of Capture and Plan-Apps, part of the SMG agency network. With an impressive career spanning over 20 years—including 19 years at Procter & Gamble leading 17 brands across 11 markets—Helen now plays a key role in driving innovation at SMG. Since joining the group in 2022, she has led the Media, Insight and Innovation team, bringing a wealth of experience and strategic vision to the forefront of commerce media.
But Helen's story is more than just professional success. As a mum of two young children, she works on a 70% schedule and is a passionate advocate for flexible working, diversity, and creating greater opportunities for working parents. A previous recipient of the Timewise Power Part Time Top 50 Award, Helen shares her insights on how she has balanced career ambitions with family life, and what true leadership looks like in a flexible workplace. This inspiring conversation is a must-listen for anyone navigating the challenges of career progression while staying true to their personal priorities.
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Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in Again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the Managing Director of Community and Partnerships at she Can Code, and today we're discussing flexible leadership balancing career ambitions with family life. I've got the incredible Helen Johnson with me today, who is the newly appointed Managing Director of Captcha and Planat, part of the SMG Agency Network. As a mum of two young children, she works on a 70% schedule and is a passionate advocate for flexible working, diversity and creating greater opportunities for working parents, so we're going to dive into that a little bit today. Welcome, helen. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, kayleigh, great to be here. It is a pleasure to have you with us. We'd love to get started with a bit of context, a bit of background about you, if that's okay, because I have so much that I want to unpick with you on this topic today. It's one of my favourites, so let's start with a little bit about you.
Speaker 2:Oh, so what's next? So, as you know, I'm Helen. You'll probably hear very much of my accent. I'm a northern girl, so very proud Mancunian. And yeah, so I've grown up through kind of university and through various kind of roles that I've done within the brand building sphere and I'm really passionate about, you know, being a brand builder, but also I have a huge passion for people and capability. So that's kind of like my professional side and what I do. And then, on on the personal side, I've been married for a very long time a couple of decades to my husband, who I actually met at university, so we're one of those classic university sweetheart couples and we have two children who I'm sure we'll get to talk quite a lot about as we go through the podcast. And then personally, I'm a sport you know absolute avid sportist. So to to say so, I love doing all different types of sport, mainly swimming, running and yoga would be my big ones amazing.
Speaker 1:Um, I have so many questions from that. My first, though, is um, we love squiggly careers, so how did you end up in tech? Were you techie when not? Your husband was he techie like no, not my husband's a little bit techie when your husband was he techie.
Speaker 2:My husband's a little bit techie, but he thinks it's hilarious that I do the role I do, because I'm not especially techie, or I would say that I'd say I think what it is.
Speaker 2:As I said, I'm very much a brand builder and have this passion for people and capability building, but what that means is is that I've never had set parameters on I need to be in a certain industry or I need to be doing, you know, a certain type of role or a title or a salary.
Speaker 2:I've always been really open-minded and curious about what that could mean and therefore I've just had a myriad of different roles and options, but always I come to it with my brand hat on. So so I spent a long time working as supplier and client side, so being now within kind of a tech company, a tech role. I'm not still the tech expert and I say that from the day one, but what I do is I look at everything through a lens of well, how would this enable brands, how would it benefit brands? I understand brands, I understand what brand directors are trying to achieve and the challenges they're trying to navigate, and so I'm always looking at the solutions that my incredible expert team develop from a tech perspective, think about okay, and that is a great service or capability that's going to help fix this solution that brands are looking for.
Speaker 1:Amazing and that is music to our communities is, um, because lots of our community members uh worry about coming into the tech industry because they think they have to be techie and they worry about transferable skills from from other industries. And actually it's just finding you and what you're good at and how that that just transfers really nicely into the tech industry. And you don't have to be that. That just transfers really nicely into the tech industry. And you don't have to be that technical person with a computer science background, you just have to find your story, what you're good at, and most of the time that is very well suited for the tech sector.
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more, kaylee, and I think it's really what I've always done has been very honest from day one of I'm not a tech expert, but I will play this perspective and undo this.
Speaker 2:But I'll also. What I have had the fortune to do in my career is learn kind of lots of general management leadership skills. So I will help you build your capabilities as a leader. You can help build my capabilities within the tech world and even things like being really honest of when I started I didn't know all the jargon and I would be very honest and put my hands up and ask the really silly question of I'm really sorry, I don't actually know what that means, and I think my team you know they must have heard to death the phrase of can you just explain that to me like you're talking to your grandma, and it's really, it's been really helpful to do that, because often we can also make tech things incredibly complex and complicated, and they can be.
Speaker 2:But actually the power in it is when you can communicate it really, really clearly and really simply of what's the role and the solution that it brings. So that's the dual role I try and play, which is think about it from a brand perspective, but also ask the deaf questions and try and keep it simple.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that, and especially as you move through your career as well even as a say, you were a techie, you might start in that role, but as you move through, you do have to know how to communicate how to communicate what you're working on to stakeholders, to manage upwards and downwards, and all of that you navigate as you move through different careers and I wanted to ask you a little bit about can you share a bit about your journey to becoming MD, because obviously you know things change throughout your career and you learn different things, and you said you didn't mind being that question. That was always like can you explain it? I don't know, but sometimes when we're moving into leadership, we think everybody expects us to have the answers to everything and it is just totally not true.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, not at all. So how did I end up being MD? So I actually I've got quite a simple career, in a way, where I spent the first half of my career so 20 years of my career at Procter Gamble. So I joined as an intern in the brand building function and stayed there till I was 40, actually. So I did a variety of different assignments across that time and the short kind of summary is I ran 17 different brands across 11 different markets throughout those 20 years and I did a variety of roles.
Speaker 2:So I did some roles that were, you know, very traditional sort of brand director, leading the brand, kind of roles.
Speaker 2:I did some that were highly creative, where I always joke, I didn't have Excel for a year and I just did loads of creative work with creative industries. I did some that were very commercially focused, some that were general manager focused, and then I moved to SMG and we'll come on kind of because that was very much for personal as well as professional reasons and I moved to SMG and I then really kind of got into, I guess, the media and the ad tech world specifically. And there I moved across and did a role where I was head of the central capability function, so across media insight and innovation, across all the retail media networks, that SMG services, as well as the branded clients who we work with from the capture side and plan app side as well. So I did that for a couple of years, really honed those expertise skills and complemented them, I guess, with my brand building capability, which then just naturally led me to take on the path of running our, you know, brand side agencies of capture and plan apps and hopefully bringing the two together.
Speaker 1:I love that. We, as I said before, we absolutely love that squiggly kind of route in in finding your way into the industry and and learning as you go all of the different things that you take from all of your different roles. That kind of the styles align when you do hit that senior leadership role, that you've brought together all of those different skills along the way as well. And some people our community do ask us a lot about that. I think they worry about their, their route in, what it's going to look like, and that that is different for every single person as well. Not every route is attractive to people as well. Some people think you know there's going to be one route to the or the CEO, um, and that's the only way I'm going to do it, and actually it's finding your own way and being okay to ask questions along the way absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I still ask a lot of questions as an MD, I can assure you.
Speaker 1:So, uh, so yes and you work at a 70% schedule in a senior role. How did that come about and how do you make it work?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So so I guess I would say I was very kind of typically very career minded. So when I was younger I kind of, as I said, I left university, became an intern at Procter Gamble and very quickly, you know, moved through assignments and took on larger scope and bigger roles and responsibilities. And you know, being very honest, I had kind of a whole career plan mapped out of, you know, general manager, let's say, by certain you know, assignments and age, et cetera. And then something actually really happened personally. So we really struggled to have children. So, whereas you know the life plan was well, we always knew we would like to have children, it was like, well, I'll have one here and have one here. Actually that didn't happen and you learn very quickly. There are some things in life you just can't control.
Speaker 2:So I went through a very difficult road, particularly having our daughter, who's our first child, and it was multiple miscarriages, you know, multiple, multiple hours in hospitals. I was diagnosed with some health challenges which was also causing the miscarriages which I had no idea about, and actually ended up having my daughter through IVF, which anybody who knows anybody has gone through it I've gone through it themselves knows an absolute roller coaster and it definitely wasn't the path I was expecting, but it really made me stop and think, and when I was returning to work, I really paused and thought well, I've got these two at the time then, two beautiful children who I feel really blessed and grateful to have. If I just tip and flip back into, maybe, the way I was working previously, it just didn't align with what I wanted anymore, and so I really thought about it long and hard, and I also knew, though, that I didn't want to completely not work, because I love my job, I love what I do, I do it with a lot of passion, I love creating impact and building teams and building people's capability, and so I spoke very honestly to my manager about it. I had a really good conversation with my manager about it, and she gave me some brilliant advice which still sticks with me today, which is be brave and do what sets your soul on fire is what she said. So I thought, right, I'm going to be really brave.
Speaker 2:And at the time, I was having conversations with SMG, who I was very impressed with through working through them as part of the BMG Brutes Media Group that they were running, and I was working from that from a P&G point of view, and we were having conversations about what could be and I just thought I'm going to be really brave and I said you know, I would really like to come and work for you, but I would really like to do it on a significantly reduced schedule. And I said 70%. And they took it away and looked at it and understood my reasons for doing it and they said yes, which I think is a real indication, depiction of just how SMG is a true, true champion of flexibility and trust and enabling. And so, yes, so I've been.
Speaker 2:So I worked on that for the first kind of couple of years in the role that I said, when I did that central capability expertise role and then I was offered the MD role. Obviously, the first question was and I, what you'd like to choose as a working I would say working mother, but I'd even say working parent that there can be that option where you can have a bit of both, where you have the flexibility to spend the time outside of weekends with children, to do the school pickups at class time, etc. As well as still continue to further your career and have the impact you want to have on an organization and its people as well yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:Oh, you know what? I had the had a similar conversation with somebody this week. Because it is so some companies know how to get that right and some really don't, and some do the the whitewashing of if we say, actually you do one tweet on International Women's Day and you think you've solved the problem, you've done your bit for diversity, you've done your bit for flexibility for the year and that's it. And then, actually, because we get to talk to all of the women that work at those companies, you start to get a feel for which companies are really doing things correctly and who is just doing it for um pr. Basically, yeah, because a lot of our community members say it's a feeling.
Speaker 1:It is a feeling of when you do need to ask for something and whether that's flexibility with um family or you're caring for someone or whatever it may be that you'll listen to and it's considered, and that you're heard, rather than you're always shut down and you're sitting there thinking, yeah, but on your website, in the diversity section, it says you're really flexible and actually, when it comes down to it, you're not. And those companies do such a good job to retain talent and they work so much harder than others because they're so grateful to be at those companies and they don't take it for granted, and those companies tend to hold on to people for much longer and it's just. It is a feeling of how you feel every day at work. Do are you sitting there thinking, oh, actually that didn't go very well and actually, in the background, I'm looking for my next opportunity, because I feel really awkward working here as a working parent, or is it nothing? And I'm so grateful for this opportunity. I'm going to just give it 110% and you're probably far more loyal as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And even if you look at it from a company perspective, you know you can look at any study across any country in the world and the more diversity you have within an organisation, the better. Your business results are number one. So if you're creating flexible policies and enabling that diverse base, you will outperform your competitors. And enabling that diverse base, you will outperform your competitors.
Speaker 2:And then, secondly, I think it's also really important, not just for the people who need that flexibility right now. It shows a really important message to some of the junior organisation that you've got as well, and the amount of younger people who are not in the stage of life I'm in, but often say to me it's inspiring to see that you can do that and that you know there's the famous saying of you can't be what you can't see. So I think it works both ways. It's not just motivating the people who are benefiting from directly right now, but it's showing that actually we truly care about this and it's important and that flexibility is available for everybody in whatever guise and when they may need it.
Speaker 1:Yes, and definitely at the junior level, because I have been around people where that conversation has come up and even if people are not thinking, for instance, about having children when they're younger, I have been in conversations where people have said this is not the place to do that, or if I'd like to do that, I would have to consider moving roles first and and then being there for some time. So it is on people's minds that even if they're younger and they are thinking about that, they're seeing how, um, people that are in that position are being treated at that point and thinking you know what, if I, if I get to that point and I'm planning a family, I also need to think about moving job first, because this is where I'm going to do that Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And then the only other thing I would say is is just because you've got a family, doesn't make you a inverted commas worse leader, right or worse kind of. You know in my case you know brand builder, etc. That that doesn't happen. You don't just forget those skills or lose those skills because you have children and, if anything, I genuinely believe I'm a better leader after having my children because it gave me a whole new skill set that I never had before. You don't even realize you're learning.
Speaker 2:So actually you're at risk of losing this amazing talent, not only who maybe have grown up with you but very loyal with you, but actually have got those old brilliant skills they've had and a lot of new skills as well. I mean, show me anybody who's working on a reduced work schedule, who doesn't know how to prioritise or how to work effectively, etc. So I do feel that you know, companies who don't have these policies are actually missing out on some truly spectacular talent and they need to rethink. What do they need to change in their processes, in their culture, in their mindset, in their kind of packages that they offer to enable this?
Speaker 1:yes, or people that have toddlers that don't know how to negotiate.
Speaker 2:Well, exactly, exactly. You should have seen me this morning, kaylee. It was negotiation on on, you know, on the max I'd say so yeah.
Speaker 1:I had one lady say to me once before I became a parent. She said I didn't know that things that are now up for negotiation were even up for negotiation yeah, very true, very true uh, but on that though, how do you manage the balance between a demanding career and family life when you do have mornings, when I do have mornings, yeah, the first one I would say I think might be an answer that you're not expecting.
Speaker 2:And again, being honest, I sort of learned this the hard way when I first had my daughter and you're trying to find your feet right. You're trying to find your find your feet as a mother again as a professional, on how you manage it all. But the first thing I do is I look after myself, and that doesn't. I really don't want that to come across as selfish, but I've really learned that I need to eat right, I need to exercise a lot, I need to see friends, I need to make sure I'm getting a decent night's sleep when I can at least control that bit sometimes, because if I'm not physically and mentally fit, it all falls down. I can't be the leader I want to be. I can't be the mother I want to be. So that's so.
Speaker 2:I've in the past and I learned this probably left that to last and I actually was like, no, that needs to be the most important thing. So I really plan my week around. Actually, I said at the start I'm very'm very sporty. Well, when am I going to get my runs in? When I can I go to my yoga class? You know, I make sure that I've always got some healthy food that I can just grab, versus maybe, you know, before I maybe got a bit of toast with Nutella on, you know. So that's the bit. I would say. That is the foundation. Is I look after me first?
Speaker 1:yeah, I love that you started that with finding your feet, because it's not something that you just fall into and know exactly what you're doing. Also a misconception yeah, in the land and know exactly what you're doing, whether that's being a parent or a leader, but it is a journey of finding it's a huge journey and there's no exam for it and there's no onboarding book and you're just in it.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, there was definitely a. There was definitely there's no onboarding book and you're just in it. And so, yeah, there was definitely a. There was definitely a period of fire on my feet, and a lot of the things I did when I was at P&G, but also now at SMG, is I really encourage people to have buddies when they come back from maternity leave, because it is very different. You have to find that way of working again and I remember really struggling and I remember talking honestly to some very senior leaders in P&G and said I can't do this, I'm finding it really hard. And one of them and I still remember to this day showed me the resignation letter that she wrote. The second week she was back in to say I can't do this and I thought, crikey, we need to be honest about this and talk about it more, to know that people aren't on their own, but that we support and enable people coming back to work, because it is a massive change in both a professional and a personal life as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and why she was feeling that way. Yeah, and perhaps feeling like she couldn't voice what she wanted to say. I've just got to exit.
Speaker 2:Exit, just go yeah, and she stayed and she, she became very, very senior in the company. But the lesson I took out of it was wow, if she found it hard, it is really hard. And secondly, why aren't we talking about this openly more? Because actually, if we and some women, don't, you know, some men, don't they? They ease back in brilliantly, but for some they do.
Speaker 1:It does take a while to find your feet, as I said, yes, and airing that with your employer, um or other people on your team and then perhaps feeling like, actually that was okay, yeah, okay to air that, that I was feeling that way and this is a really um challenging time for me and it's okay to to share that because the right employers will embrace that the the wrong ones. She might as well have kept that, yeah.
Speaker 2:And actually building on that. That's one of the other things I do. So I look after myself. And then the other thing I do is I operate with real trust and flexibility so that works both ways and have a very, very honest and open relationship with my manager. So the flexibility works that. Say, for example, I'm very open that if there's a really important meeting or something that needs to be delivered, I will absolutely flex my time to do that and in return I'll get you know time in lieu that I can use in school holidays. So there's a very honest kind of flexible working, but it's on my terms. I'm the person who gets to make the call and make the decision. But secondly, I'm very honest with my manager. That you know.
Speaker 2:There's one thing that really does spike my anxiety and that's where I get the dreaded school phone call of you need to come pick them up.
Speaker 2:They're ill. And then it's the negotiation with my partner on who has the most important meeting, who's going to get there first and how do we juggle it? And the reason it does is because, in lockdown, myself and my husband were both working full time and we had a three-year-old and a one-year-old and it was brutal. It was absolutely brutal. So while everyone was talking about, you know, in the garden and sunbathing and making banana bread, we were just surviving and hanging on. And so I've been very honest and to say, actually, when that happens, it really does impact me and it kind of takes me back to those days and my manager has been completely enabling and said don't worry about it, look after the children, we'll sort everything else out. And just having somebody, even when you're a managing director, to take that weight off your shoulders is, is is incredible, actually really incredible when you do need that time that you're trusted as an adult, exactly like exactly you're trusted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, covid, really it was very interesting that a lot of employers got to treat you as an adult and yeah, and know that you can work from home and still be, you know, working, and everything is still ticking over. Um, it did also highlight the people that weren't but the employers that could see, those that could be, yeah, and just had a good work ethic. Yeah, um, about them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely highlighted that and then the other thing I would just say is how do I manage? It is, um, I leverage my village. So you know, they say it takes a village to raise a child. I don't try and do it all and I don't feel like, because I'm the mum I need to do it all. So, of course, the stuff that is absolutely non-negotiable, so things like sports, nays and nativities and things like that but if I can get, if there are other things that crop up and I could get someone else to cover, I will absolutely ask people. And we don't have our parents who live nearby and I have this amazing group of parents on a WhatsApp which you know I can say can somebody just please help? So I'll give you a real example Today my daughter's going to a birthday party.
Speaker 2:The person she was meant to be going with unfortunately is ill. They can't take her message on WhatsApp at classic 6.30 this morning. Could anybody take her straight away? Three messages back, we'll scoop her up and we'll take her. 6, 6.30 this morning. Could anybody take her Straight away? Three messages back, we'll scoop her up and we'll take her. And it's just, and I think it's really important to not feel that you personally have to do it all, but how can you leverage those around you and, in turn, when they need you, how do you give back and enable them as well?
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely yes, whatsapp groups of parents are definitely there and something I mean. Obviously we advocate for networks and communities that she can code and just being able to put things out there. Ask people Normally, if you want to help, that's the thing you want to have, and they're like why didn't you ask me? We can interrupt and say you know, why didn't you ask?
Speaker 1:So, usually people do want to help in some way. It's just asking yeah, and what about your time at P&G? What did that teach you about leadership and flexibility whilst you were there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think so. So P&G has a quite different culture actually. So it's a promote from within organisation, which means that everybody pretty much comes straight from university and works their way up. So, as I say, I started as an intern. So the reason I say that is because from day one, you are taught about leadership, because you, you know, the interns of today are the leaders of tomorrow and the P&G leadership model is very much based on the empowerment of others.
Speaker 2:So it's about really creating clarity of where you know what's the role of the team, the direction, what are the big things you're going to go after and deliver, but building the capability of the team to go and do that and unleash potential. And so really, kind of going back to the start of our conversation, what I learned very quickly was great leaders don't have to have all the answers. What they do is they set the vision and direction and include their team to do that. But they learn to ask the right questions, they learn to listen deeply and they learn to build teams that thrive with autonomy and trust. And with trust comes in that hand in hand, that flexibility of you know you do what you need to do to deliver the role that you're being asked to do and I really I mean and it you know, as we've talked about before, smg completely operate on that culture as well and that culture of you know, building leadership capability, promoting kind of talent from within and and giving that trust and flexibility for people to thrive.
Speaker 2:And I would say that I have to do that as well. So you know, I'm in an MD role, but I'm also in an MD role that is 30% less than somebody doing my job full time. So I have to give that empowerment of others, like I physically wouldn't be able to do everything myself. So I think I've taken all of those lessons that I've learned from P&G but kind of maxed them up and applied them. That enables me to create the role and do the most impact on that more reduced schedule that I operate.
Speaker 1:And that must be when you started. That must have been quite a challenge, because a lot of people in leadership say leadership can be a very lovely place and you do hold on to that feeling of I have to know everything, I have to do everything and actually relinquishing control. Sometimes, when you are a leader and thinking, okay, actually I've got people around me that are much better at doing this, that's why they're there, that feeling of handing over sometimes could be a challenge. It must be a challenge as well with your 70% schedule, that, balancing the two of those, you must really have to have a really good relationship with your team where you really trust that you can hand things off and say you're the expert, you do it yeah, no, absolutely, and I always know, whenever I work with anybody who I manage directly or kind of in my broader team I always have a very honest conversation of.
Speaker 2:I will absolutely trust I will enable you, but you need to be honest with me as well. So be really honest on if you're worried about stuff, if you can see a problem like the, the earlier you can include me, the more I can enable you. So, straight away, we have a very honest and open and working relationship and, um, and yeah, and I'm also super organized right, so I have to be super organized and well prioritized. I think sometimes that might drive my team a little bit mad and and that is important as well, because I've been on a journey where actually sometimes it's okay to have messy meetings and it's okay to just have kind of like all kind of broad discussions, because sometimes that's where the magic happens.
Speaker 2:And when I started I was probably too organized and trying to crack through too much and actually I did slow down a bit because, um, sometimes I learned from running and actually it's true, in running, as it is in life and business, sometimes you need to slow down to speed up and um, and so I've kind of made sure I've really done that. So so my reduced schedule isn't creating additional pressure on the team, if that makes sense. So that was a bit of kind of finding our way and working through that. But I've I've worked this schedule now with multiple different direct reports and multiple teams and the the. The unanimous feedback has been no, it works.
Speaker 1:It works on both sides definitely, and communication must be key. Yeah, but another great skill that you learn as a parent to communicate. Um, what about, uh, what changes would you love to see in how companies support working parents? If there's anything that you've seen along the way that you just think I'd love to see that change for working parents?
Speaker 2:yeah, I well, I think the first one's a mindset rather than actual, you know, like kind of an actual, like tangible change. It's a mindset which is I'd really like companies to view flexible working as a performance enabler and not a compromise. For all the reasons we've discussed previously, I genuinely think I am a stronger, better talent because of the decisions I've made and because I I'm really happy personally in the balance that I have. I'm, you know, I'd like to think I'm thriving, and that is seen in my kind of impact as well. So that's the first thing is it's not a compromise, it's not a bad thing. Actually, it is a performance enabler for well. So that's the first thing is it's not a compromise, it's not a bad thing. Actually, it is a performance enabler for your company, and that's on an individual level, on a team level and on an overall macro level, because you will have a better, diverse workforce who are happy and who are thriving, and you will see that in your results.
Speaker 2:And then I think the other thing I would say is I worked in Sweden for quite some time and you know everybody quotes Sweden as being, you know, so further ahead in how they view the role that men play in parenthood and how they create that flexibility.
Speaker 2:And I can genuinely remember my first day of taking on my brand leadership role in Sweden and I had somebody quite senior, a male, going off on paternity full paid for six months and I was like, oh crikey, I wasn't expecting that. And then I thought this is absolutely brilliant, it's wonderful, and we should definitely be, as an industry, finding more ways in which we can enable that, because the more I talk to fathers, the more actually, some would really like to play an active role and what are the changes that we can make to do that? And again, you get some, you know, a broader, diverse workforce and you also get a lot more, I think, men understanding, then, some of the different challenges of when you're trying to balance both and they enable talent, whatever sex they are and whatever their family setup is, then to go and thrive as well. So those would be the big things as a change of mindset, but how we also further enable men who may want some of these opportunities as well yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:Um, well, that's interesting, uh, the six months, but also again, I think covid helped with that with um balancing sometimes uh, duties and and um, um balancing sometimes uh, duties and and um responsibilities in the home, um, but also some of that.
Speaker 1:Like you said, some fathers would would love to have the opportunity to be more involved and obviously, um, it's not always set up that way here in the uk, and I was speaking to a guy who said, um, you know what we wanted to do, like a shared leave, we wanted it to be shared maternity leave and paternity, and he said it actually came down to the decision for my wife not to return to work, even though she earned more money than me, actually came down to breastfeeding and that the NHS had recommended a certain time period. And he said it actually came down to that and she earned more money than me. Um, but it was you, you had to make a decision as to whether she was going to be able to do that and be at home or go back to work, and it was it. It was such a difficult decision for them as a couple to to have to make because it, you know, it came down to the child, or or who was earning the most money?
Speaker 2:yeah, and, and I think, and and that's what I've learned as well through this journey is there is absolutely no right or wrong way, but I think what's important is there's choice, and then people make the choice based on what is important to them and what's right for their family setup. So so you know, even though it may be, you know, you know there was the choice there and they made the right choice for them in that example.
Speaker 1:I think in some cases there isn't even the choice, and that's what I would like to see more of yes, exactly yes, you're right, because it is different and for each household and each couple, but you're right, just having that balanced choice, um to to be able to make that, um. We are almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you, um, what is your top advice for women wanting to lead and still prioritize that?
Speaker 2:um, I'm gonna say a couple. So the first one is define success on your own terms. So really define what it looks like for you and that's you know personally and professionally and it's, and take that. You know, when we talked about the find new feet. Take the stock when you become a mother to think about, well is, does it still look the same way? And it's okay if it doesn't. It might still do, and that is great, but it's okay if it doesn't't.
Speaker 2:But just take that time, because it's such a seismic change in your life that it may be slightly different to what you had and, by the way, that can evolve as your children get older as well and things happen. You know, unfortunately parents get older and that might be. You know something that you need to balance within your family as well. So I think it's just define it and forget about what you thought success was before. Forget about you know what your peers think success is, or your old family, let's say, or even just what you hear. You know from kind of peer pressure in the industry. Know what's right for you and be honest and clear with yourself and know where your boundaries are. And once you've got that picture, there may be. Then red lines that you say I'm just not going to cross that, like I'm just so. One of my red line, honestly, is working full time. That is, I've made the choice, that's not what I want to do for me personally. And then you accept the consequences of that. That might mean I can't do you know a very certain role or I can't. You know. That means maybe that I can't take a job that requires me to travel every week, for example, and that's okay. And you have to. You know, make peace with those choices. So define success and as long as you're clear and happy what that is for you, then you know, draw up your red lines and accept the consequences and that's the choice that you make. And then the other thing I would say is is learn to say no. I think sometimes we all just say yes a lot, but you've got to be relentlessly intentional with your time, and your time is really precious, both with the family and both the kind of the. You know the professional side and what you do with work. So really protect the non-negotiables.
Speaker 2:Like I said before, for me that is certain school events, or you know things like family dinners. You know there's times where I will leave, and there's a point from the dinner and I absolutely have to be there at that and then focus on the high impact work when you're there and build the team around you and trust them to deliver the rest. And within that, I learned to stop apologizing. So what I mean with that is when somebody would send me an invite and I'd be like oh, I'm really sorry, I don't work Fridays. I changed my language and I just said I don't work Fridays. No apology, I don't work. And it's a small difference, but I do think it makes a big cultural mindset impact, which is I don't work Fridays, but I would really like to meet, and here's the days that are the times that I can do. So, yes, stop apologising for being part time as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, if that's the choice you want to make. So yeah, exactly. And those redtime as well, yes, if that's the choice you want to make, so yeah, exactly. And those red lines as well. You're, you're so right.
Speaker 1:And the non-negotiables they change through different seasons of your life as well you don't quite realize that when you're just entering work as well, and how that's going to change, um, because you have this plan for work and then you're like, well, all of that changed as things happen and, um, I told this story on this podcast before, but I left a job because my mum wasn't well and the non-negotiable was I wasn't leaving the country for that time and I had to travel a lot. So I ended up changing companies because that was my red line, it was something they needed me to do, it was non-negotiable in that season of my life and I took a pay cut to go somewhere else where I could just focus on what was happening in that moment, and that was that. And then afterwards you move, you move again and then you move absolutely what works for you. There are certain things that you just think. You know what I?
Speaker 2:just this moment in time, if your employer can't move with you, then you end up definitely definitely, and I think what's important because you know, I, you know, show me any parent who's uh, who's got enough time, right so but what's important is carving out the time to really think about, well, at this stage and for the next let's say, 12 months, year, sorry, 12 months to two years what is it that I do want, what's really important? And just carve out the time to think about that, because often we're just on this hamster wheel. Quite a lot, right, and I think it's just yeah, whether it's as part of appraisal work that happens, you know, within companies, etc. Think about it. What is it that you really want? And can you get that within the company that you're operating?
Speaker 1:if you can't be brave and ask for it and if they can't accommodate it, then think what you know where else maybe they could yes, definitely, and all of that again, like we've circled back to in this as well, it it does come down to trust between an employer and employee and you get a feeling of those that might be working reduced time, for instance, or people that are working even part time, that you can trust them more and you get more out of them. I find it as well with employees, and I've worked on teams where people have kind of been, especially with hybrid working. It really frustrates me, or it's frustrated me when I've been on teams where people will always say they have medical appointments on your office days and you're like, right, but this is, it's breaking that trust of flexibility. Hybrid working, because the excuses for not coming in sometimes or not doing what you need to be doing, there's flexibility and then there's just you're not, you're not actually fulfilling your role and, yeah, it's funny how all of your appointments are on office days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, once that start, that trust starts to go, um, it's very hard to rebuild that with somebody, but somebody that really appreciates the role that they're in and they have those non-negotiables, absolutely, but everything else, they are there. They're there 100 percent, um, and they are there like a full-time employee. Yeah, they're the people that stay, and they thrive and the company thrives.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and in the same way of, you know, building that trust and flexibility. I always say to my team, like, trust me that I will always be really clear and honest with you. So in that scenario, you know, I would have a very honest conversation with that person to say, actually I don't think this is acceptable for x, y and z, and can you look at it, you know, can they work a different way. And so I think it's really important that that trust works both ways, which is, I'll trust you but also trust me that if it isn't working, I'll be honest with you about it yes, definitely, and yeah again, it's a transparency.
Speaker 1:Some companies are really good at that um, and some when they're not working out for the employee or the other way around. Then people do part-time, but to retain really good talent, and we said this before on this podcast. It's not something that happens overnight. It is something that is built into a company's culture and it's from the start. So it is a journey is.
Speaker 2:It is absolutely a journey, yeah, we are already out of time.
Speaker 1:I could keep talking to you about this all afternoon and because I absolutely love this topic. So thank you so much, helen, for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1:Kaylee really enjoyed it thank you for everybody listening, as always. Thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
