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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
How to stand out in today's job market
In this episode, Rebecca Carr, CEO of SmartRecruiters, shares practical strategies for job seekers looking to stand out in today’s increasingly competitive market. With one in four employers planning redundancies, Rebecca offers timely advice on how candidates can navigate uncertainty—whether through gig platforms like Fiverr and Upwork to build skills and connect with potential employers, or by embracing interim and fractional roles that can lead to full-time opportunities.
Rebecca also explores how candidates can position themselves in a hiring landscape shaped by AI and evolving workforce trends. From highlighting your ability to leverage AI for productivity, to understanding the growing popularity of boomerang hires, she draws from her own experience returning to SmartRecruiters and rising to CEO. Tune in to learn how to bring value, stay visible, and thrive in an AI-driven, rapidly changing job market.
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Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayleigh Bateman, the Managing Director Community and Partnerships at she Can Code, and today we are discussing how job candidates can stand out in today's challenging job market. I've got the incredible Rebecca Carr, ceo of Smart Recruiters, with me today and she's here to share some practical strategies for job seekers looking to stand out in today's increasingly competitive market. Welcome, rebecca. Thank you so much for coming on Spilling the Tea with us today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to have you on, and this is a topic, actually, that a lot of our community asks us about. We get a lot of live questions on our live webinars as well about this, and we've actually had to run some of our live events twice because they were so popular around these topics and I think a lot of people, when they think of moving into tech, they always think I have to have the technical skills and I have to make sure that I've got all of that on my CV, and there are so many ways to stand out with soft skills and we basically we've had to run those events a couple of times because it's not just the techie skills everyone wanted to hear about. They just wanted to hear how do I stand out. So we're going to absolutely love chatting with you about this today. But let's get started with a bit of context about you, if that's okay. A little bit of background to set the scene for our listeners.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, so I'm the CEO of Smart Recruiters, as Kaylee mentioned. My journey, though, into this role has been quite unique, and I don't say that just because it's me and sort of like I'm biased by my own journey, but actually because I think it has been a very non-traditional rise to a technology CEO position. I started I was born and raised in Boston, massachusetts, went to high school thought for the longest time that I was actually going to be a volcanologist. Of all things, that was my career when I was in. Every kid has their dream job, and mine was that I wanted to take samples of rocks on the sides of volcanoes. For some reason, I also just generally loved structural engineering, and I was a math and science girl. I thought that that was some of the more fascinating subjects that I had, and I found my way to California when I graduated from high school and didn't really know how I was going to take all those things I loved and funnel them into a career, which, frankly, is, I think, something that so many people experience. My father had said to me when I went to school. He said going to university is going to be how you learn how to be an adult, and going to graduate school is going to be how you learn what you want to do with your life, and so I went in quite open-minded and I actually found my way, through lots of fantastic professors and conversations with peers and otherwise, to art history. Of all things, I really and specifically modern art history, so think like Mondrian and things like that, so more progressive modern design, which connected quite well to some of the things that I loved about new building design and otherwise. I'd done a couple internships that were particularly interesting to me in architecture, and so I loved the art of designing beautiful things, and thus I graduated with a degree in art history.
Speaker 2:I then graduated and said what am I going to do with this? I just learned how to be an adult. I have a great skill, and I actually met a woman at an event in San Francisco who I was just chatting with and she said you have like such breadth of understanding, like you've gone into depth in all these different subjects. You seem to have a genuine curiosity about learning and about people. Why don't you find a way to be a recruiter and connect great people to jobs? The curiosity of matching people across different career paths and development journeys might be interesting to you. It's also just a great way to get into organizations, meet a lot of people and figure out where you're going to drive the most amount of impact. And so I became a recruiter recruiting largely in the financial services industry initially just because that was something that was there were a lot of opportunities in San Francisco at the time and carried through and was quite successful sort of learning the ropes of how some of these jobs worked and figuring out which ones that I might want to try in the future.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, the market crashed in 2008, and I needed to find a job. I was laid off and I used a lot of the kind of the ad hoc skills that I'd sort of acquired from talking to so many people across so many career journeys to find my way into a tech startup in the Valley. It was I actually I was. I didn't think they were going to be able to pay my paycheck. If I'm being honest, like when I took the job it was.
Speaker 2:It was that perfect tech startup that was like in an attic or over a garage and they were all sitting there coding in these big massage chairs. They like had their TVs there and they were coding in their massage chairs and I was, I think, employee number like 18, 19, 20, something like that, and I did everything for them. I recruited, I paid the bills, I ordered groceries to bring them so that they could be well hydrated and fed. I did anything they needed me to do, which is, very frankly, aligned to what sort of how my university career went. I was just trying to pick up as much as possible. I was just trying to pick up as much as possible and, as a result of sort of being the hand raiser that just did everything. I also was taught by them how to code and how to design products, so I would stay late in the evenings helping them out and then watching them and asking a lot of questions. They'd say do you want to try it too? I would give it a whirl and flash forward.
Speaker 2:18 months after I started that job, I ended up being a product manager building games Facebook games actually which I never thought I would ever do, never like, had any sort of deep passion about it, but just my genuine curiosity brought me into this, this path. Um, that company was acquired by Disney, uh, uh, in 2010. And I, uh, I decided to be a product manager at Disney, but that started my journey of I'd met so many people in trying all these different paths that I ended up getting some phone calls that I should be a product manager that built recruiting software because I had been a recruiter. Why not use my new skills to build tech that was going to help them do better? I started at another startup. I built out a system that was also acquired, and then had subsequently made my way to a bunch of HR tech startups in product development roles.
Speaker 2:I think what got me to where I am today, which is a bit nontraditional. Usually CEOs are founders or they're pro CEOs that have had the role before or have traditionally had revenue jobs. I have never held a sales quota. I've always been on sort of the support, success, product design, engineering side of the house. I invested a lot of time and energy in getting to know my customer, in getting to build great products that were going to solve their biggest problems, on focusing on delivery and not revenue necessarily, and as a result, you sort of naturally evolved to delivering products that sell really well. If you build something that works, people come and buy it. To delivering products that sell really well. If you build something that works, people come and buy it, and so the business grew. Smart recruiters grew very dramatically.
Speaker 2:I joined very early on as well.
Speaker 2:I ran product for many years and at an inflection point like this one in the market one where people are being really challenged to use great tech and to get good ROI out of the technology that they have they're looking for great investors, are looking for great product leaders that are going to differentiate so that they can stand out in a world where not a lot of money is being spent right now. So when money is spent, it is being spent on great products and on people that truly understand the customer problems of the future, which are oftentimes the people that have been discovering and studying this for many, many years. So I was appointed CEO last year. The business has continued to grow. I'm finding my feet in the sales and revenue and marketing world. Obviously, I learned a lot along the way, but you never know until you do it, and it's been an interesting journey of change and testing and experimentation. And here I am and I love my job and it's worked out well for me. So that's my very long-winded. What do I do? Oh, I got here.
Speaker 1:I love that. You know, I never know what people are going to say because everybody's route is very different, but yours is like this lovely mix of we always say on here people that work in a startup. They've got to have like a certain amount of craziness about them because it's like it's such a crazy environment, certain amount of craziness about them because it's like it's such a crazy environment. It just I am a bit crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you get whiplash and like the amount of change and challenges and everything that comes with it, and like joining a company where you're like are they going to be able to pay my wages and taking a chance, but it comes with like this nice, crazy and curiosity that kind of led you to from from one place to another where I've never heard somebody say I started in a company and I saw that everybody else was coding and I learned to code that way, Like that's. You know, I've been in several startups. It's super fun and I understand that I had to do everything and ended up doing, you know, things that I wouldn't usually do and wore so many hats, but I've never sort of looked at somebody's job and thought I'm going to learn to code. That's quite.
Speaker 2:that was quite a commitment. You spend so many hours. I mean, if you, if I play back those moments, I was fresh out of university, I was in my early 20s, I didn't have children, I didn't have a partner, I had my career and the things that interested me. I had my career and the things that interested me and I spent. If you think about the amount of hours people spend at work every single day, I wanted to do something that was interesting and, transparently, as someone that had a university degree, ordering groceries was not maybe the most fascinating thing to me, or I mean paying the bills and accounting and all that was kind of cool for sure. But yeah, I craved something different and something new, and so I sort of took advantage of the moment.
Speaker 2:I would say that, to this day, though, when I hire everyone from executives to individual contributors, genuine curiosity is not something you can easily fake. You have to really want to learn, you have to want to lean in, you have to see the value it's going to deliver to you and, if you find that, capitalize on it, like lean in almost too aggressively to learning, because usually what ends up happening is that level of grit and commitment in failing quickly and not having all the answers, and asking questions is a skill that even a CEO needs to have. I don't have the answers to every single question my employees ask me or my board ask me. I have to go figure it out. So my job is a testament to constant and continuous learning. That is a skill that, when demonstrated, I will seek in every hire I make, because it tells me that they will push the boundaries of what they know and not just make themselves better, but make our business better.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that they are material for leaders. There are certain people where you look at and you think you are going to be a leader. You can just see it. They haven't just gone through that process yet, and curiosity definitely is one of them. I think as well the way that it's prepared you to be a CEO, going through startups and all of those things where you do realize in a startup, for instance, there's no one else here to do those things. They might seem tiny, but there's no one here to do them and we have to do them to function as a company and move forward. It almost prepares you that when you do reach leadership, you understand that none of those things were just happening by magic and that people were there doing them and that people would. They were, you know, having to do the grind every day and it's so hard to do that, and so you almost kind of appreciate that more as a leader. When you do start to grow and you think I know, you know this isn't happening by magic.
Speaker 2:Oh no, context is king. If you have context on how everything happens in your company, your level of empathy and awareness is much higher. Your ability to make decisions faster is much higher because you understand all the inputs to the decision itself. I think that those years being the jack of all trades, I would say made me a better CEO today and a more relatable leader to my people.
Speaker 1:Definitely, and I wanted to ask you, obviously with all of that background, a little bit about your advice around job seekers today. Obviously, but things have been changing rapidly recently. So, given the rise in redundancies, what's your top piece of advice for job seekers trying to stand out?
Speaker 2:in a crowded and cautious job market at the moment. Yeah, so I always say a couple of networking is important. Right now it's definitely like businesses are driving the talent ecosystem. There's far more people, especially in certain industries, especially in tech, looking for work than there are potentially jobs to go be had. I will say that the best jobs I ever received the ones that I was theoretically less qualified for but I still got were because I made an effort to meet people within the organization that advocated for me.
Speaker 2:It can be very uncomfortable to go and network in groups of people that you don't know, but there's amazing organizations out there, even if it's just like. I belong to a group called the Athena Alliance which does basically helps female board members educate other women in tech that would like board seats over time, so like it's more of an executive group. But I oftentimes go to lectures not because I'm looking for anything, but because I'm looking to learn from people about their experiences and then just generally meet people. It is a very especially when you get into an industry that's very niche like HR tech. Everyone knows everyone else, so just being visible and asking good questions and being engaged with the community is always important and, frankly, it bypasses most of the hiring process. The last several people that I have hired did not go through a traditional interview workflow, even despite the fact that there were thousands of people that applied to the job, and it's because someone at the organization said we really think this person is a standout employee. They have these skills. Yes, they need to learn this one, but don't worry, why don't we meet him or her? And that's how I have ended up hiring them. So don't underestimate the power of networking. The other is, I think that demonstrating genuine curiosity once you get a recruiter interview is going to be important, and I would make a point to share things about yourself that you are learning, independent of the job you're trying to apply to. We oftentimes like, get so focused on I'm applying to a project manager job or I'm applying to a product management job. This is what the job does, so we need to focus all my answers on these six or seven key skills that I know they're going to need.
Speaker 2:The reality is that the job description is only mildly representative of the job. It is an articulation of the things they anticipate you doing and the things that maybe brass tacks. They need you to understand how to do. But really, 50 to 60 percent of that job is about fitting into their overall organization, being an impactful collaborator with their team, having an interest in stretching beyond the role. All businesses are stretched for cash, so right now, or efficiency I should say not necessarily cash, but efficiency so they're asking people to do more than what was in the job description already.
Speaker 2:So sharing more about your interest in learning other things, about the things that you're doing outside of work to accelerate skill development in things like AI technology or cool apps that you're using, or stories about your life and who you are, your family and otherwise, are oftentimes really well-received. They make you more relatable and they force the interviewer to think outside the box of the job description to the overall impact that you will not just have immediately, but in the subsequent months and years to come. So bring almost like a little checklist to yourself of the other things you want to make sure they know you know and that you like to do, and be very open about sharing them and weaving those stories into the overall narrative versus being squarely focused on just what they are there to interview you on.
Speaker 1:I love that and it's as well a lot of our community. They are coming into tech for the first time and they worry that they won't have all the skills needed and we try and share. We try and get other people to share the fact that you don't have to have everything, but you do have to be curious and willing to learn. And I had one lady. She said to me I was hired by a company even though I didn't have the right skills and I couldn't do the language that they they needed me to code. She said I was really worried. I took a coding test and they needed C++. And she said I spent two weeks I learned the basics I done. The test wasn't the best, but they rung her up and said we were so impressed that you learned C++ for two weeks that you were the type of person we would like. So what? You didn't get it all right, but they could see the potential and she had gone off and and, uh, done that, and she, she, they just saw something in her and thought you know what you're it.
Speaker 1:And yeah, we also try and provide um opportunities in our community where you can stand out like that. So if you want to drop in, or I am a she Can Code ambassador or I'm part of she Can Code's community's mentoring program and I have a badge on my LinkedIn. It means that you can stand out, that there's something that you're doing that's outside of your day job, where you're trying to help others and you're trying to give back to the community or learn something else for you, and we try to give those opportunities where people can do that, because you're so right. They'll remember that thing and we've done it here. We've interviewed people and you thought I can't really remember that person and then you'll be like, oh, it was that person that told me that story about themselves and that really does help definitely.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Well, connection with interviewers is well, so I'll make two comments. One is 28% of all businesses globally introduced a new skill to their company in the last 15 to 30 days introduced a new skill to their company in the last 15 to 30 days. So what you should glean from that is that almost no role can hire someone externally that has all the skills that will be required. The workforce is evolving so aggressively, especially with the introduction of AI, that there probably isn't one person that I have hired that is a perfect fit for the job I will need, so you aren't alone in that world. The other is that most interviewers and this is going to sound very cavalier, but I don't mean it to are bad at interviewing. Like, statistically speaking, most interviewers are there to ask a set of pre-canned questions. They evaluate those responses, but how you deliver those responses, the level of confidence and commitment, the level of engagement that you bring, the amount of questions you come prepared with engagement that you bring, the amount of questions you come prepared with these all send a message to the interviewer that you are not just aware of what the responsibilities of the role are, but you're willing to push the boundaries, You're really engaged with their brand and their people. You're excited. You're not going to blow them off when they suddenly follow up with you and you don't reply.
Speaker 2:You would think that oftentimes the company obviously is driving the conversation and thus you need to sort of mold yourself perfectly to them and those responses and stay in the box. But in all reality, this is similar to dating responses and stay in the box, but in all reality this is similar to dating. This is a relationship that's being built between employee and employer, and it takes two to tango, so to speak. So you both need to show demonstrated commitment, and the only way that you do that is try to build a relationship with your interviewer in some way, shape or form, and the people that are most successful in doing that, statistically speaking, move a lot faster through the interview process than those that stick squarely to the script, and so that's into account when you're engaging with interviewers and feeling comfortable.
Speaker 1:Stepping beyond sort of the bounds of the script is probably to your advantage in many ways anyways, yes, I love that, although I wanted to ask you a bit about gig and project based work, because that can be really different from um what you just spoke about there and recruiters, um. So how can gig or project based work on platforms like fiverr or upwork be used, uh, strategically, not just as a stop gap but as a stepping stone to long-term opportunities? That really is harder to build that relationship when you're just kind of a stopgap of somebody helps us with a project.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, although I have hired contractors off those platforms permanently, so I know like they definitely are a stepping stone. Yeah, I mean, everybody has a different like. I was always a relationship person, so I leaned into networking and relationships as a way to sort of build rapport and ultimately find my way into organizations. But another is just pure creativity and delivery of product. If you are a great designer and you share your work very openly with other people, or you have a skill like administrative assistant or project management or otherwise that you can demonstrate and receive accolade for relatively quickly on these platforms, then that is building a relationship. It's building trust. In the case of the dialogue I just described, I'm building trust by having a conversation with someone live. But you can also build trust by demonstrating performance and getting good reviews against that performance, so much so that organizations lean into wanting to see more. It's just it's more of an offline way of building trust than an online way of one, and some people are better at that path than others.
Speaker 2:I'd say that the trick there is. So also I should say fractional work, and being very open about fractional work is another way that you can like find your way into organizations and test them out before you commit long term. I actually my CFO and my CMO were both interim, fractional jobs that then they fell in love with the business. They loved what we were doing and then they wanted the full-time job and they raised their hand and they had done such great work. I didn't even question it, I didn't even interview other people Like they had gotten the job.
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of people sort of for right or for wrong, poo-poo the idea of coming into an organization on a very fixed term or fractional basis and testing it out.
Speaker 2:Fractional basis and testing it out, I think actually it is as beneficial for the business as it is for you and it more often than not turns into a longer term commitment, even though upfront it can be a little bit uncomfortable to say you know what, I'm not going to take that permanent job, I'm going to take that one for three months and hope it works out. That's a position of vulnerability to the candidate. But frankly, what's the worst case scenario? You find out that you didn't like them, they found out that you weren't a good fit and then you go find another one. At least you didn't now make a commitment that you're stuck with for multiple years and unhappy and lacking challenge and all the above, so I would encourage people to test that out if they're not getting the response rates from full-time jobs today. It's different from gig, though, and project-based work, which is much more transactional. They're both very popular paths, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because the gig and the project-based, we've done it. You're right, it's building a trusted relationship. And then we've actually come off those platforms with somebody who was just so wonderful and worked with them every single month. Um, because of that, and once that trust was built, um, it's there and it's kind of like, well, we've had a, you know, that interview process was actually you doing fabulous work for us and it was all seen in performance, um, which was great. But you are right with the, the interim and the fractional roles, um, companies are using them more. How do you think people can, you know, make those roles work in their favor? Because you said they're like it's somewhat I suppose it's a different mindset, isn't it? Because you're looking for that full-time role for the security, but you, like you said you actually could just try something and then even deem whether it's for you or not, and you haven't actually committed yourself.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, well, my advice, my think of it, is like a pro, the best possible probation period, if you could say, for both right. My advice to anybody that comes in an interim or fractional is show up on the first day as if the job is already yours, like, don't treat it like a three-month assignment. The reality is you kind of have a get-out-of-jail-free card in your back pocket. If, for some reason, you come in, you demonstrate commitment, maybe the business doesn't give it to you back, or maybe you find out that you don't have a passion for the space that this company is working in, or the team is not necessarily a fit for how you like to work and how like you like to show up, but just by like showing up and being like I have this job permanently, essentially in your own mind, the way that you build operating cadences, the way that you communicate with your team, the way that you manage up to investors and leaders, this sends a very different message, one that takes the company by surprise and the hiring manager by surprise.
Speaker 2:I always assume that you kind of I go into these things and go. Well, I know you're not the full-time, so I understand why you wouldn't want to make that decision. Oh well, I know you're not the full time, so I understand why you wouldn't want to make that decision. Oh wait, you do want to make that decision. Okay, good, like you're taking, you're just like wow, I like the boldness with which you're operating, because you're operating in the best interest of the business, not for seemingly yourself in that moment, not for seemingly yourself in that moment, and I think that's why they've worked out so well with me. I've sort of said, yes, this is interim or fractional, but treat it like the real thing, and the way that you'll show up and the way that I will receive you will be very different. And then, of course, if it doesn't work out, you've got your get out of jail free.
Speaker 1:You can go yeah, and on your CV it looks like you didn't work out. You've got your get out of jail. You can go yeah, and on your cv it looks like you didn't tap out. That's all you were gonna do and same for me?
Speaker 2:yeah, it doesn't. It looks like I just had a fractional, so that's fine, like yeah, it makes sense, you're.
Speaker 1:You're so right on the the mindset of going in because, as well, you must think I'd say it is three months. I've only got three months to prove what I need to prove, whereas some people might think, oh, thank goodness, you know, I've got into that job and I'm here, I'm going to learn my day job and then I'm just going to find a way to just settle into this because, because I'm going to be here as long as I pass probation, it's absolutely fine. But if you've only got those three months as well and you go in really headstrong about what I'm going to do performance difference I'm going to make, it's almost going to gear you to the next step, and the next step because you've got a shorter time to prove yourself.
Speaker 2:Right. Right, and, by the way, in every single fractional or interim engagement I have invested in, I have extended it too. So what you think is going to be 90 days or so, you end up extending the second they start extending. That's a really good sign, because that just means they're deciding. Now They've been forced to decide.
Speaker 2:But I mean, admittedly, when I was promoted into the CEO role, I was not just given the role. They made me an interim and when they did that, they interviewed other CEOs. Like I had to interview potentially my replacements in the role, which is a lot of people go, oh my goodness. Which is a lot of people go. Oh my goodness, how uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:You sort of need to put all that to the side and be like I'm in the position of power, I am driving the company forward, I am delivering results, I am loved by my people, I am learning more, I am an impactful resource. Somebody on the other side is going to have to be damn good for them to think, oh well, let's disrupt what's working well. So, yes, you interview. Yes, you give feedback. Yes, you engage openly in those conversations, because of course, it's the investor's fiduciary responsibility, in my scenario, to pick the best CEO. I respect that, but I knew I was the best one and I was going to show up every day as the best CEO, and it only took them four months and then they said, yeah, never mind.
Speaker 1:The rest is history. Yeah, it's a very healthy way of looking at it as well, of a way to secure that job and to be deserving of that job as well. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about AI. It's such a buzzword, obviously, so it's going to come up. It's playing a role, a growing role, in both workplace and recruitment. How can candidates demonstrate their ability to work with AI in a way that impresses hiring managers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I've had people do a lot of different tactics in interviews, from creating 30, 60, 90-day plans and talking about how they came to those results and leveraging AI tools to do it. Following up post-interview with a transcript of the notes, the things you took away, the things that excited you about the role All of that is just demonstrating an awareness to the fact that this thing is here and that it's going to transform the way that we work. It's going to make you more productive. So if there is a path to communicate and let it be known that you've experimented and leveraged some of these tools to make yourself a more impactful and effective candidate, that's great. Don't be?
Speaker 2:A lot of people, a lot of businesses or organizations are very fearful. Oh, 58% of candidates are using CV enhancer, like AI, to enhance their CVs so that they can be a better fit for the role. Yeah, Good on them. That's what you should do, because it's really hard to talk about yourself Like I don't sit, like if even my introduction I I looking back on that introduction going my goodness, I should have made that way more concise with AI. Like when people have to talk about themselves, they either ramble or they don't say enough about the things that actually matter. So leveraging those tools to make yourself a better match is probably going to only be better serving for you. You're going to end up with more interviews. That being said, the other thing is that AI. On the flip side, you should use AI to tell you what you shouldn't apply to, what you shouldn't waste your time on.
Speaker 2:A lot of people use it to apply to thousands of jobs at once. There's a lot of jobs that you are not a match for. There's a lot of jobs I have no business being involved with. Let AI weed some of that out for you, so that you can use your time and energy to test the waters with the companies to which you are actually going to be successful, and so I would say that those be vocal about the fact that you use tools. Follow up with good examples of you using tools in sort of sly ways, like the transcription, and here are the things I took away, and these are the things I love and whatnot. Even doing things like having AI note takers in the interviews, even if they ask you to turn them off. Demonstrate to them that you're aware that these types of productivity tools are going to be important to making them successful, and that's always a good thing.
Speaker 2:I will say, though, some of the most impactful AI tools that I have seen in the workplace are those that help translate the way I communicate in a way that's going to be effective to the receiver.
Speaker 2:So, as a good example, we tested an app at Smart Recruiters where, when I write a Slack message to my SVP of product. Both of us have taken, like we've added details around our personality assessments and things like that. It will say don't say it that way, say it this way, um, and then, as a result, she receives it the right way, so she doesn't feel tone or she doesn't think that I'm upset, or she doesn't like if you say it this way, she's going to understand it and she's going to take action in a positive way. With remote work, with people working cross-culturally and all over the world. Those types of tools, I think, are going to be some of the most interesting ones that come to market, because when you're talking to an interviewer and they don't know you, how do you say things in a way that are going to resonate with them, and I think AI is going to help us to communicate more effectively, and so do some research on those and figure out how you can weave them in.
Speaker 1:They'll going to look into that and the things that you can do with AI now as well, and the more things that come up. I didn't even think of using it that way, because even things with like how to communicate at work anyway, you're constantly learning how to do that throughout your career. It's not just when you hit the workplace, it is a baptism of fire anyway and that's kind of you get over that. But the more that you move through leadership, you then have to learn how to communicate with, manage upwards and downwards, and that in itself is how to do that, how to approach that. If you've got bad news, how do I tell the level above me? How do I communicate that in a positive way, instead of always starting on the downer of this is happening, but this is how we're going to get around it. So even things like that how to communicate that with people I hadn't even thought of, that I'm going to get that.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's super cool. The challenge is going to be that it works in a lot of business-to-business scenarios, because everyone in my company has taken an assessment when they were onboarded so that the algorithm knows something about how they operate. It's harder in a candidate-to-company format. That being said, a lot of assessment is starting to happen on the front end of application processes, so I do see some of this evolving. Great way to learn how to give feedback to employees, even as a leader as well.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, that is a tough two subjects. It is hard. How do you not pull somebody down? And some people have said to me you need to do it like a sandwich. You know you start with like Positive, negative, positive A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:I've heard that one too. I'll say, generally speaking, the best way like feedback though this could be a ramble topic for us, being super direct is like I. It took me way too many years to realize that when I join a call and I want to give someone feedback, me saying things like well, how do you think that went? And I thought this went well. Oh, this didn't go well. Oh, but you did this well. Me just being like that call didn't go well, did it? Like actually like lets all of the guards down and then they know where you stand, versus like trying to read between the lines. But it was, I want to say it was like one of the AI tools I originally tested, where I was putting my performance feedback into like Gen AI products to make them a little bit more actionable, that I realized that the AI was just being very concise and direct and that that was very well received, and so I started to use it in speech and it made things a bit better.
Speaker 1:Definitely, because you do worry about being direct. And then you're right there just sort of sitting there thinking, well, I'm really confused and I've got off that call and I'm not quite sure what's expected of me. Yeah, yeah, there is a trend called boomerang hires and it's on the rise. Can someone approach a former employer about returning, and what mindset of preparation is key to making it successful?
Speaker 2:So it's a good question to ask me, because I am a boomerang but also I hire a ton of boomerangs. So I think the important, the piece of advice I would give when you approach oftentimes people approach boomerangs so if your employers really enjoyed working with you and they have a specific role, that especially contract or gig work, the opportunity to boomerang is a lot higher. You just need to make it known to them that you have this skill and you're willing to work in a more contract or project-based way. So that's to our point about a lot of those people converting A lot of the people I brought. I actually just hired a boomerang that I need for a fixed term contract and if things go well I will probably hire her again full term. But it was her willingness to come to us in this middle ground upon the return that made it a lot easier.
Speaker 2:A lot of people come back and they want the job that's, three jobs above where they left. Inevitably that's not that like. There's the assumption that because it's been two or three years and thus I am now deserving of two or three levels above is probably the wrong one to immediately make. I would approach them and go hey, I really enjoyed my time working at this company. I learned all these amazing things Since I've left. I've learned all these other things that I think would make me an even more valuable asset than I once was.
Speaker 2:What do you like? Do you have anything that you think you could use me effectively for? And let them drive? What job you take? Why?
Speaker 2:You can always say no, but companies like this idea that you have a lot of context. They know and have validated skills in this area. They know you've been somewhere else and they know you can jump in and hit the ground running without any training or onboarding. That's very high value to them. But let them define the role to which you're going to be a fit.
Speaker 2:A lot of people end up applying to a job at the company just to be a hand raiser. They get a phone call and then they share that bit of information that they're actually open to other types of opportunities. That tends to be very successful if you can't get a call back the first time, but boomerang hires, large in part, are very, very, very successful. So if you miss the company you worked for, raise your hand, reach out. You miss the company you worked for, raise your hand, reach out. Just ask them if they need help, be complimentary to your previous experience and let them drive. They'll take advantage of the moment if they want to bring you back and they'll probably move very quickly on it.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more on that, because it's built into that company's DNA as well that they welcome back boomerangs. There's certain companies where a lot of the workforce have gone and come back later and done something else, and I worked at a company like that and it's probably the only company that I have ever thought oh, if I wanted to go back somewhere, that is where I would go, because they're very welcoming of that. Like you said, they know you can fit in, you can hit the ground running, you come with other experience and you're going to bring that and you're going to come back and they build a certain environment where talent keeps just coming back to them and some companies are just really good at that, which is a testament to that company and that culture. Not all companies get that right. Some people just run out the door and think I would never, ever come back there.
Speaker 2:No, I want to say some of my highest performers are boomerangs, but they all have jobs. As a good example, I had a professional services leader that was with me for years. He left. He went to a partner of ours. He was there for a couple years. When he came back he didn't even come back in professional services. He came back as a solutions architect. He ran solutions architect. I liked him so much there.
Speaker 2:He moved to product ops and worked for me as a product ops leader and now he's my VP of business intelligence like totally disconnected over an eight-year span. But again it's. I know what he can do and I know what he's capable or what he can do every day, and I know what he's capable of learning. And so I trust him because I've built a relationship, so my willingness to let him stretch and take new roles was a lot higher than someone off the street and there's just by him going, hey, I really miss working here. I was like you know what? I don't have a professional services job for you, but I have this one and I think you can learn it. And here you go. And now and he is an example I have like 10 or 15 that work for me, that are boomerangs, they're all the same.
Speaker 1:Yes, you're right Again with that networking and who you know and whether they'll find you Again, not always the job that you apply for, but something else that's relevant, because some companies just want to pull you in and find a role for you. Yeah, anyway, there are some things in candidates that you just you cannot buy skills and attitude, and, yeah, you just cannot, cannot buy it. With more hiring process being powered by AI, which we spoke about a little bit already, I wanted to ask you a little bit about how candidates can ensure they stand out in a system that's becoming more automated, and so this is just more your advice. I'd love to finish with your advice on this topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's so automated now, and how do you stand out? What is your advice on that?
Speaker 2:And it's going to get worse, by the way, for sure, and it's a product of what I'm building as well. I mean, we're building full automation in that workflow. So the first we already sort of touched on, which is only apply to jobs that you're actually a good match for. Applying to everything is just going to be demoralizing. So there's a lot of cool candidate tools out there that allow you to put your CV in, to add your skills, to look at your experience, and they'll tell you the ones that are the most likely for you to get response rates from. Now, if you want to change your career, you're going to have to do a lot more offline networking. When you go through the application process, there's inevitably probably going to be something like a consent box to being scored by AI. This is going to crop up a lot more and more. It's because algorithms are being used to stack rank candidates. Basically, on the other side for hiring managers, you can choose not to check that box. You want to, just like. I know everybody's worried I'm going to get a bad score. I'm going to do this. If you're truly applying to jobs that you're a good fit for, you won't be scored poorly. So you want to be there and I'll put it from my shoes. I'm a product designer, so like if I'm a hiring manager and I have a list of people maybe 200 people and 50 of them have scores against them and 150 just say not rated there is no user experience on the planet that I can give them. That is not going to bias the fact they will look at the scored people first. It's blank versus colorful, you know like it's black, you know like you can't any. It's human nature. So they're going to go look at the scored people first. If you're a good person for the job there's going to, you're going to be scored. Well, you're going to get a look and, frankly, you're probably going to get a look over all the people that said they didn't want to be scored. So I would encourage you to check that box.
Speaker 2:The other thing is oftentimes, when you check that box, it'll tell you a lot of platforms are starting to expose your rating Are you a strong match, are you a poor match? And, based on that, ai should be explainable. Most platforms do expose this data to the user. Add to your CV. Oh shoot, they're not seeing that. I did this Like edit.
Speaker 2:Spend some time actually working with the agent to understand what you look like on the other side, especially if you want the role. And to my first part about applying to the right jobs if you're applying to thousands, that's going to take you forever. So just by narrowing yourself down is already going to make you more stand out. And then I see a lot of people after they apply, connecting with the hiring manager, doing some research, saying hey, by the way, I just applied to this job. I know you're the hiring manager doing some research, saying hey, by the way, I just applied to this job. I know you're the hiring manager. I'd really love to be considered if you have any questions about my application.
Speaker 2:What does this do? Your name just becomes memorable. And then when they're going through the screening list and they see your score, they go oh yeah, that girl. She reached out to me on LinkedIn. I want to look at the profile. That sort of balances human behavior with the reality. That is hiring. Managers are doing more hiring and thus screening is part of our inevitable future. Ai and agents will be a part of that. It's just a different way of playing the game, so to speak.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you're right.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of us we think, well, I'll do it en masse and see what comes back, because looking for a job is a whole job in itself anyway.
Speaker 1:Like it takes a very long time and that's why the best jobs that I've gone to are the ones that I really do look at and think, you know what, that the stars aligned for me, I was so made for that job and and then really gone after the people that work there just to say I'm over here. I really think you should look at me, rather than just blanket trying everybody and then, like you say, you could imagine if you did get in and you did use ai to change your cv and then use it to say all the things that you that you think that they want to hear, and then actually you get in there anyway and it's not for you, you're not going to stay and exactly move on. So exactly, yeah, yeah, it is an absolute minefield um finding a job, which is why it is when you've been in work a little while, you tend to think to yourself you know what I've been in roles where I think, oh, maybe am I unhappy, should I move? And then you think actually I'm going to make the best of things here, because sometimes this jump in ship to the next company is not always the best route.
Speaker 2:Grass isn't always greener no, it is not always the best route. Grass isn't always greener no it is not.
Speaker 1:Well, that is brilliant advice to end it on, because we are already out of time. Thank you so much. I could keep talking to you all afternoon on this topic, because I know our community will love it and it's something that we are really passionate about at she Can Code, so thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you for everybody listening, as always. Thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
