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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Beating Burnout & Reclaiming Balance
Burnout expert and mental health advocate Dorothy Herson knows firsthand how toxic workplace cultures can push young professionals to the brink. During her grueling training contract at an elite London law firm, she pushed herself to extremes—until a devastating breakdown landed her in a psychiatric hospital. Now, she’s on a mission to help other women recognize the warning signs of burnout, break free from the pressure to overachieve, and reclaim their work-life balance.
In this episode, Dorothy shares insights from her new novel, The Rag Doll Contract, which exposes the burnout crisis in high-powered law firms. We discuss why young professionals—especially women—are increasingly struggling with stress, the tell-tale signs of burnout, and whether giving less of ourselves to work could be the key to lasting wellbeing.
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Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the Managing Director, Community and Partnerships at she Can Code, and today we are discussing beating burnout and reclaiming balance. I've got the incredible burnout expert and mental health advocate, dorothy Herson, with me today, who knows firsthand how toxic work cultures can be and that they can push young professionals to the brink. We're going to discuss her journey a little bit today, because she's now on a mission to help other women recognise the warning signs of burnout, break free from the pressure to overachieve and to reclaim their work-life balance. Welcome, dorothy, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
Speaker 1:It's an absolute pleasure to have you on here. We want to hear all about you and your story, but can we start with a bit of context about you, please, just to set the scene for our community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:So I think the context that's relevant kind of around the topic of burnout is probably my first career, which was in corporate law, so I did an English degree and whilst I was at university I did a vacation scheme and it was for a firm in a ring of corporate law firms called the Magic Circle, and people outside of law maybe aren't so familiar with that term.
Speaker 2:They're basically these kind of big powerhouse firms that have a sort of huge annual turnover and and they kind of deal with the biggest transactions and the biggest deals, um, in the world really. So it's quite a sort of funny name, the magic circle. It's kind of very alluring when you're this like 18, 19 year old at university and you think I want to be in the magic circle, um, so, yeah, I applied and I got a training contract in the magic circle. So I then had to do a couple of years of law, like a law conversion and a legal practitioner course, and I then did a training contract and, um, I suppose, yeah, like my journey, my book, a lot of what I talk about is kind of informed by my experience doing a training contract, um, and that that was where I inevitably led to burnout. So, um, yeah, that's kind of my, my context lovely.
Speaker 1:I can see, yes, by the name, magic circle would lure you in. I think, oh, that's cool, I definitely want to be in that. Um, did you know anyone that worked in that area before, or was it just kind of like a university led you in that direction, or did you have like role models that you thought I want to be like her or him?
Speaker 2:I think it was more the case that I because I went to kind of like a very sort of I would say, an underachieving kind of comprehensive school in Reading, um, and I'd done really well, um, because, I think, because my some of my family were very academic, so I'd really looked up to my granddad, for example um, I'd done really well. And then got to university and I think, um, at that point I had sort of become quite obsessed with this idea of achievement. So when I heard about the magic circle, it was less about the fact it was law or the fact that I knew anyone that did it, and it was more just what it represented, which was being a really good career and and people revered it, and so I was sort of drawn by the reverence rather than what it actually meant.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and we're going to talk a little bit about overachievement today and that is, yes, something that um a lot of us and struggle with, and we do get asked that lot uh, that question a lot inside our community um as well. But I wanted to ask you a little bit about your um experience, so your own burnout experience. It led to a serious mental health crisis and hospitalisation. What were the warning signs that you wish that you had recognised earlier?
Speaker 2:I think one of the main warning signs I wish I'd just been a bit more aware of is that, because it happened gradually over a couple of years, I had become more and more unhappy, more and more anxious, more and more um sort of restless, and I had gotten to a point where I was never happy, my life really like didn't have any joy in it. I I woke up anxious, I spent the whole day sort of in a state of um of of sort of being quite emotionally detached and and obsessed with proving myself, and I went to bed on the same note. And I think, like I look at my life now that I've got perspective and some time, and I think any sort of life that you're in that is barren of joy, if you're sort of stuck in these really negative feelings all the time, that's a sign that something's really not right, because it it's not natural to feel kind of really despondent or unhappy or anxious all the time and it's really bad for the nervous system and the body, the mind. So I'd say that's like a big warning sign. Um, I think for me a huge red flag was and still is um when I feel like I'm in a period where I'm more susceptible to burnout is when I've sort of lost perspective, I'm not doing as much, I'm not seeing friends as much, I'm not kind of pursuing any of my other hobbies, and my worth and my values become really tied up in my job or my career.
Speaker 2:And that's a warning sign, I think. If you sort of look at your calendar and you realize that it's like 90% work related, um, even if you don't feel burnout, that's a flag that things aren't really as as they should be or or that it could be improved. Um, and yeah, I guess. Um, I guess, yeah, just just like. For me it's was quite extreme, like I wasn't eating properly, I wasn't getting daylight, I wasn't sleeping, I had terrible insomnia and the hours were really bad at this law firm anyway. So all of those I'd say are warning signs of burnout on the horizon.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and you can now spot them now and you know that feeling as you're edging towards that. Because it's such a balance, isn't it, when you say like you were feeling, like you weren't happy most of the time. It's such a balance because we don't always walk around like super happy, but there are. There should be a balance between yes, some you know things, that there are challenges in life, v just joy and enjoying life, but there's nothing between you know those two. Then that's when you should start thinking maybe, maybe this isn't for me. I should start thinking about a different path.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I guess when I use the word joy or say kind of no joy in a day, I really just mean like now joy could just look like having a cup of coffee and sitting in the garden for 10 minutes, or it could just look like being able to do a half hour walk in the day. That that's really uplifting, or it could. It doesn't have to be like this extreme example of joy. I guess it's just like little things in the day that feel good and that you're doing for yourself and that are nice and and that are positive experiences versus negative.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, definitely. Yeah, you're right, it's just the tiny things. It doesn't have to be big grand things that you find in the day, but just the joy in the tiny things, like you said, just having a cup of coffee or finding those, um, five minutes. I did read a while ago, and something that I tried to practice, especially in the winter, was about morning light and how how much the light in the morning can have an effect on you. So even standing outside in your garden for five minutes in the morning light actually has a different effect on you than if you stood out there in the afternoon, which is something that I didn't know. So I kind of made a conscious effort just to think it's just five minutes. Just go and stand in the garden for five minutes as as, uh as the sun, you know, comes up and it's morning air apparently yeah, yeah, I think it's also to do with our circadian rhythm.
Speaker 2:It's kind of telling your body I'm awake, it's the beginning of the day, it's time to rise, um. So it releases the good hormones and kind of gets you in that good mindset exactly that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I hadn't. I hadn't um heard of that before in the morning. Um, you describe yourself as an insecure overachiever. Can you explain what that means and why it makes someone more vulnerable to burnout?
Speaker 2:yeah, sure, um. I think the best sort of definition I found and this is a term that laura empson um looks at she's kind of um done a lot of academic work and research around insecure overachievers and people working in high pressure sort of corporate jobs. But I guess it's someone who ties their worth, their self-worth, to achievement. So the difference between a high achiever and an insecure overachiever is that the high achiever might be driven by passion. They might be driven because they've got a great salary and they're motivated by earning more. Um, they might, but might be motivated because they want to make a difference in the world, whereas the insecure overachiever is only really motivated by a sense of insecurity, a sort of I'm not good enough, I need to prove myself, I'll be validated and I'll feel good once I've reached that milestone at work or been kind of appraised.
Speaker 2:Well, um, so I kind of I think about it sort of like you know, you've got some friends and they're not really looking for a relationship, but they find a partner and they have a lot in common and it really adds to their life and they're happy in that relationship. Um, and then you've got friends who feel really really or people who feel really miserable if they're happy in that relationship. And then you've got friends who feel really really, or people who feel really miserable if they're not in a relationship at any cost. You know I need, because that's where they're deriving their value from and their kind of sense of self and their self-worth. So then they're more vulnerable and susceptible to kind of the wrong relationships because they kind of need those to to sort of feel validated.
Speaker 2:So I guess that's like a good way of kind of explaining or looking at why it is more likely to lead to burnout. Because if your self-worth is tied to achievement, then you're not as likely to put in boundaries, um, you're not as likely to to kind of put yourself first because you're you're so sort of desperately enmeshed with this corporate entity or job or career, um, and you're more yeah, more likely to push yourself to extremes because the fear of failure is a huge part of what motivates you and you're so terrified by the idea of failure. So, like the person who's absolutely terrified of being single, so they will stay in a relationship at any cost, no matter how that looks. I think that's kind of the analogy I often think of. It's it's it's like yourself, where, it's where your self-worth is coming from? Yes, I.
Speaker 1:I absolutely love what you just said, because I've had that feeling before with jobs. I've been touched with very lucky with jobs, but there have been the occasional way you sort of think I've referred to it as the toxic boyfriend. Yeah, it's the same relationship. It's something like you ignore the red flags perhaps because in your, your mind you're kind of thinking like I'm going to make a go at this.
Speaker 2:I have to make a go.
Speaker 1:I have to at least stick this out for a year, because it would look bad like I'll at least like have to make it almost that you're so bothered of what the outside world is thinking about you and that relationship and that like that time in that job that you just totally put yourself to one side and just go along with things. Yeah, yes, I can completely relate to that. I've had that feeling and we actually have that question, um, sometimes on our live webinars where people ask about how long would you stick out a job where you feel like that, like it looks bad on your cv, but actually is it better just to keep your own mental health, leave, just exit, go and find something else and then you can explain to the next company. Sometimes, like people just want honesty, they want you to say that wasn't for me, wasn't working out, like whatever it is. It's not like they're always going to look and go. Something went wrong there.
Speaker 1:You know she had to leave for something that she didn't do, so actually you were just trying to look after yourself and and you left, so yeah, yeah, no, exactly yeah we definitely advise people, if you, if you feel like you want to go, don't feel like you have to to stay in a job, um, or a relationship at that point, actually throw that one in too. If you feel like you want to leave, please go ahead. Um, uh, your novel, um, the ragdoll contract, explores the intense pressure and burnout that so many face in high-powered legal careers. Um, while it's a work of fiction, how much of it was informed by your own experiences, and what do you hope readers will take away from it?
Speaker 2:yeah, um. So I think that the kind of emotional truth of the novel is all inspired by my real life. So the feelings um the experiences, the kind of emotional truth of the novel is all inspired by my real life. So the feelings um the experiences, the kind of way that the protagonist, olivia, the main character, sort of relates to people around her and relates to her job, that's all really coloured by my own life. Um, I think I kind of wanted to write something that I'd read.
Speaker 2:I'd read and watched a lot of films that were set in the city or corporate environments that were all quite um alpha or male centric, so like the wolf of wall street or american psycho or um, in this country we've got industry, which was written by men, and it's very kind of drug drug, what I would call a more masculine vision of corporate life, like quite a lot of sort of drug taking and and kind of a lot more sort of sex and those kind of more like sensationalized aspects of the work. So I really wanted to write something that captured the experience from a young woman's perspective and I really wanted to kind of capture that sort of institutionalization and how it feels, um, yeah, from the viewpoint of a young woman and, um, that was something I just hadn't come across before in literature. Um, so I suppose, yeah, that my experiences as a young woman and the way that I was made to feel and the way that I felt really come through, even if the characters and the events and the law firm are all very different. But then I suppose more of the practical kind of aspect, like staying at your desk until 4am, the perfectionism, the breakdown, that all came from my own experiences and I was hospitalised at the end of my training contract. I guess I kind of wanted readers.
Speaker 2:What I want readers to take away is that when I was in this environment, the narrative that I was being exposed to, and the narrative kind of the societal narrative, was this is amazing that you're in this law firm, this is the best thing that's ever happened to you, you should stay because it will look fantastic on your CV and you'll have this kind of gilded life.
Speaker 2:And I didn't get any of the opposing side of the narrative, which was, well, this is the cost, this is how bad it could get and what it could take from you, not just now, but really forever. Because I think of the mind, like any part of the body, once you've broken it, it's it's never quite back back to how it was before. Um. So, yeah, I kind of wanted to just give young women or young men in these careers a kind of um blueprint for an alternative sort of way of looking at them, um, and sort of maybe give language to experiences that they haven't been able to find the words for yet, and also suggest, um subtly, that success shouldn't have to come at the cost of your sanity, and that was the main message that I wanted to get across in the book.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, I love that you were looking for a female side of you for that, because you're totally right, that is, it's normally a very masculine thing, and the guys are the only ones as well that will make such sacrifices, that ladies tend to think, oh you know, I'll be having family. And they're not the ones that are having that thought or of thinking I have to overachieve because you know, because I'm a lady and I want to show that I, I can do that and, um, you're absolutely right. When you're in that environment as well, if the company is setting that example, that that is the norm, it's like you need the management to be the ones that set in the tone, like they're the ones that are flexible. They're going to pick up their children in the afternoon, they're doing the school run. It's okay for everybody else to do that, that you don't have to be at your desk late. They set the tone for the culture and I remember I won't name the company, but there was an event that we used to run years ago at a corporate and we would set up in the foyer and give out name badges for the ladies coming in for the event and then later on in the evening, as the event was um, dying down a little bit and, uh, people were still coming in for for networking.
Speaker 1:We noticed that everybody ordered dinner to reception and by now it's like eight, it's getting on like nine o'clock, like deliveries are still turning up. People are still realizing that they're still in the office. Food is turning up, and not just like one or two bags, but 20, 30 bags of food and the delivery drivers are just used to it. And I remember sitting there thinking I couldn't work for a company like that, where I'm expected to stay late, that I have to order dinner at my guest because I haven't gone home like it's. It was such an eye-opener that so many people were doing it, as if it was almost expected of you to do that. Is that I take it.
Speaker 2:That's something you experience if you were working like through the night and that was just normal yeah, and actually the um in the book, the kind of the takeaway becomes sort of a bit of a symbol of of, like, how much life has changed so quickly. But also it's so normalized, like you say in the first, her first seat. Her supervisor just leaves the takeaway menu out every night. Um, and it's like who, who we can deliver from, and and also, I think, very quickly, because, like for some someone like me I hadn't really had takeaways like I, I just hadn't. It was.
Speaker 2:It was very novel in the beginning. It was like, oh, we get to order Korean food and we get to order Japanese food and Indian food. This is so exciting and so quickly it just go, it becomes your reality, it becomes normalized and also it's kind of a sad, stark reminder. And in the book and in real life there's a bit where she says I just wished that I was having some home-cooked food and it's. It's that it's like all I actually want is to just go home and have a nice home-cooked meal.
Speaker 1:Like all these fancy restaurants and delivery drivers and takeaways, it's just depressing, yeah, yeah yeah, you're right, it must start as a novelty and then be like, oh, this is great. And then quickly be like, no, because I remember sitting there thinking everybody that came in that building dress the same, look the same, they all fitted into this culture and then they were ordering food in and I was thinking, as much as this is fun and I love being at that company I was at and we were running an event and it was like networking and it was fun. I thought, my gosh, imagine that is your life. Like that must be a lot to to balance and that that just becomes your, as you said before, your whole calendar just becomes work. Like that is just not healthy at all yeah, yeah, yeah um.
Speaker 1:We're seeing more young professionals, especially women, who struggle with stress and mental health in high pressure careers. Do you think corporate culture is changing for the better, or is it still as toxic as ever?
Speaker 2:I think that sort of the both statements or questions can be true. So I think it's changing in some ways and obviously we have a lot more awareness around mental health now. There are way more charities, there's way more communication and openness around mental health. Even since I left um corporate law, I've noticed a huge shift. But then I also think, you know, economic conditions are worse. It's it's really, it's a tough landscape. It's um, we're seeing a rental crisis, a cost of living crisis. People don't feel they can just walk away from their jobs because the kind, yeah, like the economic landscape is is quite bleak. So then that puts a lot of power back in the hands of the employer. Um, unfortunately, because it's like well, we can just find 10 more of you if you walk away.
Speaker 2:Um, I think, like the point on women.
Speaker 2:Um, unfortunately, as we know, women kind of do a lot more emotional labor.
Speaker 2:Women still do about 75 percent of unpaid labor, so the child care, all the sort of admin bits with the house and in the family, and I guess now we still have that.
Speaker 2:But women also are expected and have an expectation on themselves to be career women and high performers and unfortunately, all I think that's ended up happening is women are spinning all these plates now and expected and expecting themselves to spin them all perfectly, whereas maybe men don't have that kind of that cultural weight on them to be amazing fathers and amazing friends. I mean, obviously, like this is a huge generalization, but we just speak about the role of a mother and a father very differently still and we've got different examples in film and um and in books. So yeah, I think, um, the short answer to that is that I think for women in in many ways, the situation's worse now, um, than it was before, because the pressures are coming from every angle and that it's not like someone who's been a perfectionist in the home is then going to go into the workforce and think I'll just give it 30 percent exactly, and sometimes we're, we're paralyzed by that perfection as well that you just kind of you get stuck.
Speaker 1:I had a lady on here and her comments have stayed with me forever. She just said, um, sometimes done is better than perfect, and I know I've since. She said that I take it into everything and I think, just get it done sometimes. So you just get so stuck on things where everything has to be so perfect. Actually you don't move forward, you don't achieve something. You've just run yourself into the ground and you didn't achieve whatever it was that you needed to do that project or you know, whatever it was that you you were assigned. Um, yeah, sometimes just letting it go.
Speaker 2:It's so true, but then I think you look at even something like beauty standards and the level of kind of perfection really that's constantly bombarded at women, and also women often had to work so much harder to get into their jobs that you can really understand why it's harder than we think to give up the perfectionism to give up the perfectionism.
Speaker 1:Exactly exactly. And I think that got a little bit easier with hybrid working, or it almost seemed to uncork some pressure there that you could work from home and work in the office. But so many companies now are calling people back in, and a lot of the big corporates. You have to be back in five days a week, so that hasn't really helped, or it was kind of did for some, and then they changed their routines and now you're expected to be back in again. So it's all a bit of a gray area anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah um, so many people as well.
Speaker 1:They, like you mentioned there about um, uh, financial, um, demands. Sometimes they can, they can keep you in a job. Um, they feel like those financial pressures, uh, or fear of correct career setbacks. They feel like they have to stay in a job even if they don't enjoy it. What advice do you have for those who feel stuck but are struggling with burnout? It's a tough one, like you said, like rents and everything's going up, like you have to stay. And I had a lady on here she referred to it as golden handcuffs and she said to me I love, I love buying handbags. And she said I was in that moment where I was stuck in golden handcuffs, where I had a fab job, fab salary and I just could not leave it. Like how, how do you deal with that if you're you're stuck and struggling?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think you know self-awareness and self-reflection is is absolutely key. So, um, we all have our different, we all have limits and those limits look different person to person. So one person might actually be working really hard but they're still enjoying that and it's not really eroding from other areas of their life and they still feel really fulfilled. And then someone else might be working those same hours and it's taking a huge toll on them, um and because, yeah, but all built differently. So I think it's about finding your kind of um, your, your limit, your spot um and and sort of that. I found that the older I get, the better I am at sort of detecting it. So, um, there is like, obviously you can't. Just it is naive to just say, oh, walk away, you know.
Speaker 2:And when I first left law, I was quite because I had some savings, um, up from that I'd saved up. So I had savings for about a year and I was maybe a bit sort of um. I look back now and think I was kind of on a bit of a high horse. I was saying leave your corporate job or leave your job if you don't enjoy it. And then obviously reality kicks in and you're like, whoa.
Speaker 2:Economic stress is a real thing and unless you have a family who can kind of buy you a house or pay rent which barely no one really does these are big factors, like they're serious concerns, and I think the stress of poverty is maybe just as real as the stress of a really intense corporate job.
Speaker 2:So I always try and keep that in mind now when I'm talking about this and not to be too black and white. But I think, like I said, we all have our points, our limits, and I suppose for me now my health physical and mental always have to come first, because if I lose those I lose absolutely everything else. So it's kind of working out. There's a difference, I think, between being unhappy in a job and the job is being harmful towards your mental health or your physical health. So it's figuring out sort of how much, how much you, you, you can keep at it and maybe, if you're not enjoying it, obviously applying for something in the background or exploring new avenues, but yeah, how much you can sort of keep going before those really big red flags start coming up, which will look different person to person, but for me, you know it's it's crying a lot, it's feeling super anxious. My worth being tied to my job.
Speaker 1:It's not seeing my friends and family cutting my, yeah, all these sorts of things, yeah, so that's sort of what I would say in response to that. Yes, definitely, and taking that feeling as well into the weekend. I've noticed that in jobs for you sort of thing. If I can't shut off from work and I'm taking that feeling into the weekend as well, and I can't enjoy my weekend or even just shut off from work and I'm taking that feeling into the weekend as well, and I can't enjoy my weekend or even just shut off from what I've been thinking about all week, that's such a sign that you might be at the wrong company.
Speaker 1:And you're right that there are different. It's different for every person, because I've been in companies where people have been saying, oh, this feels toxic and I don't like this, and the word toxic is thrown around a lot nowadays and I'm sitting there thinking this isn't toxic, like this isn't what I would refer to as toxic Everybody has their different environment and I sometimes sit there and think but is there a difference between really toxic environments and environments that you have the ability to change things?
Speaker 1:I think that's the thing like if you're sitting there and you feel challenged in your job and, yes, things need to change. We all can feel like that. That's how you know we function as a business and we move forward and grow. But it's whether or not, mentally, you feel like you can change things. There you have the freedom to bring about change and to move forward and grow. But it's whether or not mentally, you feel like you can change things. There you have the freedom to bring about change and to move forward. So you can look at the end of the year and say we had all these challenges, but here's how we overcome them. Management were behind us if we wanted to move forward and make changes. But sometimes, if you're in a toxic environment where you have no freedom to make changes, that's the, I think, to me. That's my breaking point. I'm like I can't do anything here, like I really cannot move forward. But yeah, some people do quickly throw in like, oh, it's toxic, no it's not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's very true, however, on, but just to play devil's advocate on that as well, I think something like you know, when someone's been in loads of terrible relationships and then they find someone who's not as bad, but they're still really bad, and they're like, they're amazing, they're the best thing since sliced bread. I think the same can be true of careers. That, for example, if you come from a firm that's you're working all hours around the clock, um and, and there's a terrible bullying culture and it's really sort of aggressive, and then you go somewhere that's not as bad, it might feel you might put it on a pedestal and say, great that's the best thing I've never taken out once.
Speaker 1:This is great. Yes, I can see that as well. You're. You're right. It's going through the bad boyfriends and then thinking, car, this one's brilliant. Definitely, you're all right. It's that it's so personal and it's so down to your experiences and what led you to that point and, as well, what you are are willing to budge on at certain points in your life as well, and what's going on in your life. You might be thinking I want to get married and settle down and have a family. This isn't for me, because I need flexibility. But when you're young and you just sort of think I can stay at my desk until 4am, you kind of go along with it and think, yeah, I could do this, and then you think think, actually, that was quite damaging. So I suppose it depends it's so personal how you got there and what you're willing to budge on at certain points in your career.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such a good point and actually, as you were saying that I was thinking, the same thing kind of applies for how you feel about your job will also be coloured by the rest of your life. So if you're going through a really stressful personal crisis or you've just had kids and it's maybe the work will feel a lot more overwhelming than it actually is if you take away all the outside stresses.
Speaker 1:Yes, I completely agree, because you and I think people always tend to go to family and ladies at a point where they think we'll have children. I had that point where one of my parents wasn't well and I was in a job where I found it very overwhelming. I probably wouldn't have found it very overwhelming if I wasn't going through treatment with my mum whereas I was being asked to travel internationally and I was like I can't, I can't be doing all of this. Normally. I'm thinking, yeah, I get to go wherever and this is great and I travel for work.
Speaker 1:But I was at a point where, mentally, I just I checked out and everything was becoming too much. So I actually ended up moving and I took a pay cut and I went to a really local company where they were fantastic, the team were incredible and they just totally embraced the fact that I was taking a sidestep and um, and I learned so much there. But it meant I could walk to work, I could not have to travel internationally, I could be at the hospital when I wanted. But I almost had to make a conscious decision to think that this small period in my life I'm gonna have to make a decision to go sideways, take a bit of a pay cut, still survive. But I don't think I would have hoped if I hadn't have made that decision, because you're right, other times that job probably I would have been. You know all guns blazing and thinking this is fantastic, but at that point that just wasn't for me. And then you can go back then, when you're ready, um yeah, it almost sort of starts.
Speaker 2:It starts to bear down on you because of other things that are are happening yeah, and I wish that we normalized in conversation sort of, oh why don't you take a step sideways and take a bit of a pay cut? Because whenever I've heard people talk about a pay cut or moving down inverted and speech marks, it's kind of always presented as a negative thing. But, like your example, well, it meant you could walk to work, you could spend this time with your mum, you were in a team that were really supportive. It was. It was the perfect thing for you then. And I think, yeah, sometimes we get quite caught up with the sort of the rat race, don't we? And like climbing the ladder and we see it as a personal failure if we're not climbing up. But in your example, that was so sensible and the right thing for you and enriched your life a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then when you do look at it afterwards and you think actually the things that I learned from that team were just I took them into my next job. But you're right. At the time it's seen as as you're failing or as a step down, whereas to me I thought I've just gone sideways, that's, that's really all it was. And and the more that our ladies in our community share that they're doing something similar and they take those what they call squiggly career routes, the more it should become normal that people are just moving around with what suits them at that point in their life, and that's totally okay, because it's not always up. We know, we're not always. We might be thinking that we should always be going up the career ladder, but that's not always the reality.
Speaker 2:For most of us. Yeah, well, it makes sense that your life's kind of a bumpy journey, right, so your career should sort of slot in with that. It's not that your life's kind of a bumpy journey, right, so your career should sort of slot in with that. It's not that your life gets better by the year. It's on this upward trajectory like.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, the opposite is kind of true exactly exactly life happens and you kind of function around it um what if somebody listening today, what if they recognize themselves in your story, they're feeling overwhelmed and exhausted, or like they're constantly trying to improve their worth? What's the first step that you think they should take to reclaim balance in their life?
Speaker 2:I think, um, as I mentioned earlier, kind of pausing and self-awareness and self-reflection are really key. So it's quite a big step to be able to say to yourself I'm overwhelmed and I feel like I'm constantly trying to prove myself and I think actually, if you can look at your situation and say that to yourself, that's a really big step, because some people never have the awareness and then don't have a chance to do anything about it. So I think I guess that and then um sort of like, often I think we catastrophize in our mind worst case scenarios. So I've got to stay late tonight, otherwise um, dot dot dot, I'll be fired, or dot dot dot, um, they'll figure out that I'm not good enough, whereas if you kind of rationally sit with, well, what would happen if I just went home at a sensible time tonight? Or what would happen if I just turn my phone off this weekend?
Speaker 2:I think sometimes, when we challenge those fears and those kind of big statements in our minds, we realise that actually this is something I really really explore in the book Sometimes we actually realize that the pressure is coming from within and not actually coming from the firm. So and that's a big thing, with insecure overachievers or overachievers generally, the pressure be like. Where is the pressure actually coming from? Are they telling me that I need to work all weekend? Are they telling me that I need to push myself, or is that something that I'm forcing myself to do because I don't feel worthy or valid, or I'm worried they'll figure out I'm an imposter?
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think so often it is actually the case that it's like there's that saying, there's, like this poem, the mind forged manacles and it's like actually it's in your mind that sort of that pressure. So, yeah, I think those are kind of the main things that I would sort of say and just constantly thinking about life and what you want it to look like. And for me, a huge part of my sort of journey has been separating what I'm told to want from what is actually good for me and they look completely different. Um, because what I value so much is time and kind of peace, and I've been told by society and and jobs and family and whatever that I should want kind of, to be constantly scrambling up that ladder. So yeah, I think separating what you're told to want from what looks good and feels good and is a nice life for you is so key yes, oh, I just I love that.
Speaker 1:You just said that and I think you it gets easier. So it gets easier, but it's it's easier to recognize your own voice as you get slightly older. Because it's almost like and we had this discussion recently in our team about being in your 20s and everybody thinks like it's going to be absolutely fantastic, and then you have this thought of oh my god, I'm going to turn 30, and then you experience your 30s and then you think actually that was much better and it was the fear of of what was going to come and getting older. But actually you realize you don't really know yourself in your 20s. You can't even recognize your own voice in your head. That is telling you the things that you want to do. All you've got is FOMO. I've got to be out everywhere doing everything with everyone.
Speaker 1:And then you sort of hit your 30s and you start to recognize that a little bit more. And what works for you and the things that make you happy um, I completely agree with that and it's so and you're always trying to to work through that because it does bleed into work and what type of work makes you happy and what type of work you find fulfilling? Um, what, even what teams you enjoy working on and why, like, I love being in a startup because it's so challenging and fast paced, but it's a, it's a small team and everybody bonds, whereas in a corporate you don't get that, but that's not for everybody. So you almost figure that out, as well as to what you'd like to be doing in your next career move. But you're right, it's so, it's, it's a minefield to navigate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you do have that thought. I love that. You said imposter, that imposter syndrome, feeling where you're sitting there going I'm going to get found out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you just overcompensate because you, you have that feeling. Yeah, um, I, yeah, totally agree with everything that you just said.
Speaker 1:I love that. Um, we, we are out of time. I could keep talking to you on this for another two hours if we had it, because I've absolutely loved hearing all about your journey today and your advice. Our community are going to find this episode so incredibly useful, because I think so many people have felt that way at some point, have felt the way that themselves edging towards that and that burnout, so they're gonna absolutely uh, love to to hear about this. So, thank you so much, dorothy, for taking the time. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on here chatting with you, um, about your journey and your book. Go out and buy it. We're gonna put a link for our community. But, yeah, thank you so much thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:It's been really great thank you for everybody listening, as always. Thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
