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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Beyond technical skills: What really matters in a tech career
On this episode of the SheCanCode podcast, we welcome Jenny Briant, Academy Operations Director at Ten10, to unpack why closing the gender pay gap still looks like a half‑century project—and what we can do today to speed things up.
Drawing on her front‑row seat at Ten10’s renowned Academy, Jenny explains how alternative entry routes into tech can unlock talent that traditional pipelines miss. We explore:
- Breaking in without the “right” CV – Jenny’s non‑linear journey into tech leadership and why diverse backgrounds drive better teams.
- AI with a conscience – the hidden biases she’s spotted in algorithmic hiring tools and why Ten10 insists on human oversight.
- Representation at the top – how gender‑balanced leadership teams build fairer AI models and reduce workplace inequality.
- Mentorship for Gen Z – practical ways sponsors can boost confidence, pay transparency, and career momentum for women entering tech.
- Skills that outlast code – why adaptability, communication, and problem‑solving now rank alongside Python in Jenny’s playbook.
Tune in for straight‑talking insights and actionable advice on building a truly inclusive tech future.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the Managing Director at Sheet Can Code, and today we are discussing, beyond technical skills, what really matters in a tech career. I've got the amazing Jenny Bryant with me today Academy Operations Director at 1010, to unpack why closing the gender pay gap still looks like a half-century project and what we can do today to speed things up. Welcome, jenny. Thank you so much for taking the time to come and have a chat with us.
Speaker 2:Thank, you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:It's a pleasure to have you on. Can we start with a bit of background about you to set the scene for our ladies please?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely well. My background is heavily in recruitment. I did a psychology degree. Mostly because of the A-levels and the GCSEs that I did and I think that that feeds in quite nicely to the topic of women in tech. I felt quite shunted into humanities subjects for my GCSEs. That then defined the A-level subjects that I was able to do, which then kind of limited me in terms of the degree subjects that I was able to do. Loved my psychology degree saying that, but as um psych grad there were no real opportunities for me in tech and I'd always had an interest in it.
Speaker 2:Um, I didn't know if I was a particularly techie person, but I knew that I wanted to be part of that environment, part of that progressive industry. And when I finished university I fell into a small startup recruitment agency and was able to utilize my degree there as a people person, a communicator, building relationships. I really enjoyed that and after working there for several years I came across my current company, 1010, saw that they had an academy for people from any background didn't need to be techie, didn't need to have a stem degree in order to apply. So I applied for a position on the academy. I remember being invited to the office to deliver a presentation as part of my interview to the managing director at the time and um thought to myself well, this is quite a big graduate scheme. Um, does the managing director do sit downs with everyone? That applies? That's, that's absolutely wild. How lovely. Turned up and about 15 minutes in I realized that they were not interviewing me for a place on the academy. They were interviewing me to be a recruiter for the academy. Oh gosh, tried to front it out for a further kind of five, 10 minutes and then just came clean, realised that there was a bit of a miscommunication, got to the end of the interview, got to deliver my presentation and at the end the MD said said, look, we really do need a strong recruiter for the academy at the minute. We like your vibe, we like your personality, we like your background. We want to offer you the job as a recruiter would you consider that? And in return, you can go through the training on the academy and, if the stars align, you can transfer over into that department. If that's something that you want to pursue, or if you want to stay in recruitment, you can.
Speaker 2:Um, long story short, I stayed in recruitment. I absolutely loved the company. I loved being able to utilize my skill set. I loved being able to speak to so many different people and watching their journeys grow. I did do the training and it turns out I'm not techie. I'm not at all. God loves a try. So I consider myself as a woman in tech. I contribute a lot and I'm the least techie person I know, and that's how I got here. I've worked here for almost eight years now and I joined the board of directors in 2022. So I've really had the opportunity to build my career in this company and I really believe in what we do in the academy.
Speaker 1:I love that, and a lot of our community as well, are not techie.
Speaker 1:There's so many people in our community that fell into tech and don't code and are not technical and they still have wonderful jobs, and that's something that we really advocate for and why this podcast was started because we just wanted to talk to people across all disciplines in tech what they do, how they fell. So many people fall into tech and then realize what a great industry it is and that they haven't considered it Because you at school, you know it sounds like there wasn't somebody that was there, that was sort of in a great tech role that you'd seen or you know a role model, perhaps had come in or you'd had that you know somebody in your career department talk to you about working in tech. It was kind of like you just went along with what you thought you were good at at the time and you don't get that. You don't really get that traditional route very much where people sort of think, yes, somebody came into my school and I was so inspired by her I went into tech.
Speaker 2:Exactly that and I didn't have those role models. But I think the fact that I ended up doing those heavily humanities based subjects has really benefited my role in a tech environment, because I'm analytical, because I'm a problem solver, because I'm a strong communicator. So kind of grateful for it now, especially now I know that I'm not particularly technical but I have a lot of skills that are transferable.
Speaker 1:I have a lot of skills that are transferable. Yeah, that you can try, and that's the great thing about tech is that you can try different things. If they don't suit you, then you can do something else, and we always encourage our community to try things for free first. There are lots of wonderful free boot camps and training and we're like give it a go, because it's not for everybody and you, and that's okay that you know that you took something and you really didn't like it. That's fine, do something else, but don't spend. You know lots of money sometimes and then think, oh gosh, spend thousands it's not for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, exactly that um your own past.
Speaker 1:As you said there, it wasn't the classic computer science wrote like so so many people. But what pivotal experiences convinced you that alternative entry points can actually strengthen a tech team?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, reflecting on my own background. Firstly, I mean, if we think about someone who's perhaps gone to uni and done an English lit degree, for example, on paper you can't really think of anything further away from tech. But to break that down, that person's just spent three years in a really heavily essay-based subject and in order to approach these assignments, this person has had to really absorb, compare and contrast various texts with each other. You've got to be so analytical, you've got to have great attention to detail and as you're moving through this essay, you're constantly, as I say, comparing and contrasting, analysing, reflecting, adding your own opinion and then, right at the end of that essay, you're formulating your own conclusion based on your own analytical work. And that's pretty similar to how you would approach testing a bit of software. You've already got a skill set.
Speaker 2:So through speaking to people in my recruitment background, that became very clear. We could see those correlations. And someone who can speak multiple languages to learn a new language, you typically start with the syntax and that's how we teach people to code. So if that person has already got that mindset, it's the same.
Speaker 2:People who've worked in retail or hospitality are always really interesting to me. They can work under pressure, they have those strong communication skills, they can problem solve pragmatically, they're typically calmer in a potentially stressful situation and off the back of that, I mean within our academy. Only 30 percent of the participants in the almost 12 years that we've run the program have come from any kind of stem background. So we've seen and proven that alternate entry points to this industry works and it works well. And by broadening those entry points into the tech industry we can welcome highly capable talent. People who are willing to learn can bring new perspectives, fresh ideas, skills, and so it's hard for me to think of any pivotal experiences, because I think the whole eight years of my 1010 career has been a pivotal experience and it's proven us right time and time again.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely You're so right. A lot of our community talk about they've transitioned from one career to another. They always ask is it too late? That seems to be the question. Late, that seems to be the question. And it's actually just finding that story of trying to find those skills that are just really easy to transfer over to tech. And you're so right, and you just mentioned retail there and there are certain jobs where you can pick out those skills. I had a guest on here and she worked in a pub when she was younger and she said that really made me because she was young. She worked behind a busy bar and she younger, and she said that really made me because she was young, she worked behind a busy bar and she said all the skills that I learned and I said I know because I've mentioned on here before.
Speaker 1:When I was a student I worked in McDonald's and if you watch the people in McDonald's it is such a hard shift.
Speaker 1:You're getting shouted out by the public, you have to think really fast and I remember some people would start and I'd see them for one or two shifts and they'd disappear really quick because they just couldn't take the speed of what was happening.
Speaker 1:And you. You then realize when you're older, those experiences and all those soft skills that you picked up during that time even though it sounds like you had this like small job somewhere actually they all help for when you do go on to your career and, like you said, when you you go into tech, things move so fast in tech and you think that's okay, I can stay calm because I, you know work behind a bar or something like that and you think I know how to do that. But sometimes it's like especially individuals as well, like in recruitment. They'll help you to figure that out and they'll sort of help you to say, actually, did you know you have all these wonderful skills that perhaps you didn't consider, that actually are really important, because it's not just the tech skills is it is also all of those wonderful soft skills that some people don't even realize they have 100%, and I don't think we can underestimate the importance of soft skills.
Speaker 2:I think they're almost more important, especially since COVID. I think that the tech industry specifically sees more value than they used to in the importance of soft skills. I mean, I used to work in a bar I think I managed four years in the end where four nights a week they sold any spirit for a pound and I told everyone if I, if I managed to do that, I can do anything.
Speaker 1:Yes, the carnage that sounds like they really set you up as a person ready for the tech industry.
Speaker 1:Absolutely transferable skills for life, that yeah yeah, yeah, and it is sometimes just looking back and thinking you know, actually that really did make me as a person and I'm going to take that with me. I think so. So many people worry in the tech industry that you have to be highly qualified and, um, and it does the certain roles. Of course you have to have certain qualifications, but it's not for all of them. And if you do fall into the right company and they give you the opportunity to learn, then why not? But at least come in and give it a try.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Aptitude and attitude when you're entering the industry. I think for sure, exactly.
Speaker 1:And something that is on everybody's lips at the minute that I wanted to ask you about was about AI, because when we talk about tech moving incredibly fast and having to keep up with things, 1010 has chosen not to use fully automated AI tools in recruitment, but what specific biases or failure modes have you witnessed that made you decide the human touch is non-negotiable on some of those things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you're exactly right. We don't currently use any form of AI within our recruitment practices. That's not me saying we never will, but right now I haven't found one that can replicate what we do to the level of quality that we do it, and I utilized 20 of our current high performing employees, ran them through this AI recruitment tool and it told us that 11 of them should be rejected, and it's a tricky one for us because we're a consultancy. We service many clients from varied industries in different locations, wide ranging company cultures, team structures so there really isn't a one size fits all answer when it comes to our recruitment. An exceptional high performer working for us for one client may be not the right fit and a real low performer for another client, so we have to be that people business first and foremost, and off the back of that, being human in recruitment is key.
Speaker 2:I think where we're at the minute with these AI tools?
Speaker 2:They've got the capability to analyse written text, video interviews, and they can assess some body language and speech patterns that demonstrate certain skills, patterns that correlate to a strong job performance in past instances.
Speaker 2:But the concern is, are they potentially eliminating candidates who could have been suitable?
Speaker 2:And in our case, I firmly think that the answer is yes, and in terms of some failure models I've witnessed in I think it was 2019, harvard Business Review wrote an article that demonstrated this really clear bias in AI's English speech recognition software.
Speaker 2:It showed that the tech had far superior accuracy rates for white males, because we know that AI systems learn from data and data must be representative of the entire diverse population in order to be correct, and the data out there at the minute is is not representative. So I'm apprehensive and something would have to be really, really impressive me to consider using it, because I trust my talent team implicitly. They know who we are, they know what we want, and no interview is ever the same. Speaking to people, learning who they are as a person, what they value, what they want from their career. That's how we'll learn, how we could potentially get the best out of them, and I haven't found anything that could come close to replicating that yet yes, that's so interesting because, as a recruiter as well, you're a really good judge of character and having those AI just can't do that.
Speaker 1:Ai cannot be a good judge of character as it stands because I've noticed on interviews that we'll have some really good candidates on the phone and then they'll do like an interview on Zoom and then we meet them in person and I try not to get too excited about people now because people are different in different settings. But when you meet someone in person and they come across very different than when they came across on the phone and you think if I were to put you in front of a client like, that's not gonna work because you're a different person when you're actually you know, real life, meeting someone all of that you can't get through. Ai, you you need to um. It, I suppose, can help, perhaps narrow down some lists that a human would still have to check through, but when it actually comes down to picking people and um being that, that judge of of character and what they're like now, I completely agree that's something that recruiters are experts in. So I don't think that will ever be replaced. But AI can help, but it wouldn't be replaced at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, agreed. I like to think of it as a supplement rather than a replacement.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, definitely, and that's the thing with AI Everybody's really some people are panicked about it and then others are like, oh, he's helping me so much in, you know, making sure that I can now move on and do different things and do other things faster, but there's always that somebody, a human, needs to intervene and just double check everything. And yeah, can help to that point, but no, when it comes to recruitment, definitely not. No, when it comes to uh, uh, recruitment, definitely not. Um. Pwc their 2025 women in work index so depressing predicts another 46 years to close the gender pay gap what a great number, um. So, from where you sit, which single policy change that could be company level or government level could shave the most time off of that projection?
Speaker 2:oh gosh, to pick one. Um. Companies, in my opinion, should make hiring decision criteria, promotions and pay rises transparent, and that will ensure that all employees have equal opportunities to progress, and so adhering to structured and strictly skill based interviews for recruitment and promotions will reduce unconscious gender bias and widening your potential applicant pool. Rethinking structural issues that can prevent women from doing particular jobs. Ensuring that you're advertising to women through inclusive job descriptions. Gender neutral language. Making role requirements clear and specific. Focusing on the required skills and behaviors rather than an exhaustive list of qualifications wherever possible. Um. Making sure that your list isn't full of nice to haves that it is relevant. We know that women tend to not apply for a role if they don't meet almost all of the criteria listed on the job description, while men will apply if they meet roughly 55 percent. Placing job adverts where they're most likely to be seen by those underrepresented most likely to be seen by those underrepresented. So, for example, if you're targeting women returning from maternity or a career break, it would be useful to advertise on websites that cater to them, like Mumsnet, which is a brilliant resource. Review your suppliers if you aren't getting enough female applicants, find a supplier that has an account manager that you can rely on and you can really talk through your objectives and that will support you in that.
Speaker 2:Using structured interviews for recruitment and promotions that ask exactly the same questions of all candidates in a predetermined order and format and grading those responses using standard criteria that you've agreed with everyone beforehand. Making the responses that you get comparable. Reducing that again impact of unconscious bias. Having a diverse interview panel and selection panel. Encouraging salary negotiation by showing clear salary ranges and not going outside of those. That will encourage women to negotiate their salary by making those ranges clear and it gives them the opportunity to negotiate a little bit more, because typically women don't negotiate while men do. I'm being sweeping generalizations here, but the facts are facts from yeah, from the research that's been done, and while employees don't currently have the automatic right to know what someone else earns although, to be fair, this is currently being campaigned for and they do have the right to know how salary increase calculations are made, so it's essential that employers have a clear criteria in place of transparency and they keep accurate records of deciding factors when these decisions are being made. That was quite a waffly answer, wasn't it? But transparency.
Speaker 1:I love everything you just said and I agree. I agree with all of it because, especially with the transparency of pay, pay is such a taboo topic. It's such a you go in the interview, you don't. There isn't a salary range, you're not sure if you're pitching anywhere near it. I've been in a role where I got there and it started to dawn on me that perhaps I'd really just underpitched myself and it's you start to think. I think my predecessor was on a lot more than me and nobody pointed that out when I went for the interview and it just leaves a bit of a bad taste and you sort of think I'm not going to stay here very long. You don't get off on a good foot with that company.
Speaker 1:Whereas I've told this story before.
Speaker 1:But at she Can Code I actually interviewed and I undershot what I was asking for and they let me know that actually there was a little bit more available and I thought I've never been for an interview where somebody has said actually there's more available and you should have asked for that, but it's something that we try and advocate for at the company.
Speaker 1:So for them to tell me that at the time I was like, oh, thank goodness, you know a company that actually says and does um means that you commit as well more to that company. You're more committed um because you know they actually live by and what they say. But there are so many companies that it's and I've worked with people who have got in and then fall. Actually I think I should have asked for more. They don't stick around long and it's a difficult one because when the company does then have to post a job, they're like well, I don't want to put the money on it because it might upset other people, and you think, but if you're just transparent from the start, then you know, everybody knows where they stand and some companies that's very hard to unpick now now they're in that position where nobody knows what anyone earns and um, and it's a fireable offense to talk about salary as well.
Speaker 1:That one where you're not allowed to talk about salary to each other doesn't help anybody. But I love the fact that you mentioned placing ads as well, because in our community that's something that we encourage with our corporate ambassadors, and you're so right Finding the right places, the right community and actually having a plan, not just thinking. I threw my jobs up on, you know, like a big recruitment site, and I'm expecting to get all of the right, diverse candidates through. You never will. So find those communities that have the right people and, even if they don't all you know, go and apply for for that job. But you can interact with those people.
Speaker 1:We encourage our partners to interact with our ladies. Like reach out to them, start a conversation around your role because, like you said, there might be things in that role that are in the job description that are turning people off from applying. So reach out to them, ask them like what do they think? Start a conversation around what that job could be like, instead of just then expecting I've thrown a job description up and I'm going to get some amazing um people through the door, really diverse candidates. You actually have to make an effort and it's not done through magic, is it?
Speaker 2:I actually have a friend who's in recruitment and she was really struggling to get female candidates to apply and she ended up posting the job description with some of the information redacted onto Reddit and tagged loads and loads and loads of different Reddit users and communities in this post saying hi, hi, I'm recruiting for this role. My target is to get more female candidates. Can I have some feedback? And it pretty much went viral. Thousands and thousands of people were commenting and she engaged with as many as she possibly could say. Thank you so much for that feedback. I've reworded it what do you think of this? And through engaging with all of those people, hundreds started commenting saying how do I apply for this? It sounds really interesting. I've been reading through the comments and your responses explaining a little bit more about what that meant. What that meant it sounds brilliant and, um, I just thought that that was absolutely phenomenal.
Speaker 1:What clever and the, the power of a community that can really give you the answers that you know you just ask, that's all you've got to do. You don't get that on a job board, you know you just post it, people see it and just disregard it and don't apply, whereas if you are looking for the right communities and you do post a role in there, we encourage that to start tagging people, tag people with relevant skills and ask them. You know, are you interested? And they don't have to leave a message either on, you know a live feed or anything like that. You can direct message them and then you know if somebody's a bit weary, that their employer might be in there or something like direct message them. But you have to ask and again, it does come down to that effort, the effort to find diverse candidates. Um, like your friend, just reaching out and asking, um, people love to to come back and give you feedback. So good, good and bad is the other thing they're very true.
Speaker 2:It was a risk, it paid off.
Speaker 1:It is a yeah it was a good risk to take. We spoke a little bit about soft skills earlier, so I wanted to um bother on for that, because you lead training programs that blend technical skills with what you call power skills like communication and problem solving. Um, how do you measure the impact of those softer competencies once graduates hit real world project? Because that's a baptism of fire, isn't it?
Speaker 2:you come out of uni and you're like you know goals, skills I needed, and then you're like, yeah, but I can't function in the world of work because I've got no soft skills absolutely well, when um they start with us, they go through this fairly intense training program that has various modules and scores are given on every module, on hard and soft skills. So we'll sit that person down and say you know, you absolutely smashed the coding module. Well done. However, you didn't really ask many questions. You didn't look like you were active listening. Your body language was this you didn't look like you were active listening. Your body language was this um, in your group it didn't seem like you were particularly engaged.
Speaker 2:We go through a lot of situation-based exercises and training as well so that they can demonstrate soft and hard skills in a controlled environment, learn from that experience, get peer-to-peer feedback as well as feedback from the training team um. We utilise our academy wellbeing team to conduct one-to-one mock interviews with all of our trainees as well, and they'll focus on and give feedback on soft skills as well. So again, it's a learning opportunity for the trainee to reflect, because they can be the best coder in the world, but if the soft skills are lacking, it's not going to fly in a consultancy um. We encourage our clients to meet with our trainees and interview based on attitude and aptitude rather than current skill set and provide us with detailed feedback on that. So positive or negative outcome we can pass that on to the trainee and work through it with them, because it's not just about teaching them those hard techie skills. It is always about constantly improving your soft skills as well, once they go onto client site and they're in a real, real life project.
Speaker 2:We conduct regular performance reviews and feedback sessions so that we can track and measure progress and areas for development, and we rely on 360 degree feedback to gain that holistic view of softer skills and the impact that they're having in that person's workplace. We have regular drop-in sessions and an academy representative committee, so every academy cohort that joins us will vote for two reps who will meet with my team once a month. Raise questions, questions, pass on feedback both ways. We can utilise that to provide feedback. Based on what we've heard, a few people in your academy haven't been attending these meetings. They haven't been doing this. Do you know why we're going to reach out to them? Would you like to reach out to them? It's just that constant reflection to to make sure that we're always on top of it, that we're always measuring the impact of the importance of soft skills.
Speaker 1:I love that and I think when you're talking about it in like a controlled environment, interview practice oh my god, interview practice and feedback is so important and you don't realise that as a graduate, because you go from university and then you go off to your first interviews and even though it can be quite brutal, when somebody gives you some really honest feedback, it does really help you for your next one. Because I remember back when I graduated it's probably the first five to ten interviews I've done totally. I could have just totally scrapped those and it was just. You need that practice of what to say, what not to say.
Speaker 1:And I remember I had the worst feedback from somebody once who was quite brutal and said to me I was probably very young and very Essex and he said to me I wouldn't let you loose with CIOs and I was like brilliant, what lovely feedback Because of my accent. I was like great, thank you for that. But it was such honest feedback that I hadn't noticed that perhaps in those other interviews the others might have been thinking the same thing and I wasn't um worldly in terms of work at that point and, um, you do need that feedback. So if you have it in a controlled environment where you're not actually going for a job and somebody gives you some tips on how to present yourself and how to come across. That is just priceless, you know. Then just going into things and think I missed out on that opportunity because I was a bit bit too Essex.
Speaker 2:No, I do completely agree, and we try more than anything to create a safe space within the academy and that's very much by design of our processes.
Speaker 2:The academy team is very, very close-knit, so that's the training team, the operations team, the well-being team and the talent team, and all of these faces are involved from day one. They're involved in recruitment. Every candidate will have interaction with these teams throughout the recruitment process. They'll have interaction with all of them in the onboarding process on their first day, during training, and then well-being and ops will look after these people throughout their um their tenure with 1010, the learning and development team, the trainers they are the career coaches and direct 1010 line managers for these people throughout their tenure um with 1010. So it's building up that relationship of mutual trust and respect so that when we do have to um pass on areas for improvement or um some constructive criticism, they trust us. They know that we've got their best interests at heart. We're saying this to help them and um we're going to work with them to improve yeah, yeah family environment, yeah, yes, definitely, and it's a and it is ongoing.
Speaker 1:And it is that, even down to your first day, um can can really make a difference to somebody, especially when you have just graduated and you're not quite sure you might not have had a um, a part-time role or anything at university. And it's so different when you actually step into that world, and especially people that have taken traditional routes, they might think I took the computer science degree and I know what I'm doing, and then actually you don't. Once you get onto a real world project, you're like, oh gosh, actually I could do with some support here. So, um, that's amazing to to have. I'm talking about young people, uh, and gen z, gen z talent often cites purpose and inclusion as deal breakers, which is really interesting, because that used to be salary was the deal breaker, um, but what have you learned about mentoring or sponsoring early career women so they can see a long-term future in tech rather than a stepping stone?
Speaker 2:Well, I've learned that it is vital. It's up to tech leaders to help break down those barriers to entry and take action to take practical and meaningful steps to ensure that women that join tech stay in tech, and a a part of this is the proper facilitation of mentoring young women that enter the field, ensuring that they feel supported and empowered and sponsored as they embark on this career. In my view, imposter syndrome is still a huge issue for women in tech and that's often due to the the very visual gender imbalance, the lack of representation, sometimes the unconscious bias within tech teams. So having those strong mentors and role models that can provide guidance, challenge, challenge like your negative thoughts, help you to advocate for change and overall, just provide you with a sense of community and just have your back, can help to alleviate this. Speaking from my specific experience, as I've mentioned, we accept people from any academic or employment background. We choose to focus on aptitude and attitude rather than experience and, again, as mentioned, I originally joined as part of the recruitment team and I really quickly noticed that candidates from a non-stem background, specifically female candidates from a non-stem background, really struggled with imposter syndrome, and that's before they even started with us and when I was making job offers, I typically spend 10 minutes max on the phone with a male candidate offering them the job, but it was a real regular occurrence to spend close to an hour on the phone with a female candidate explaining that they'd earned this offer.
Speaker 2:They'd shown their capabilities. We saw that they had skills and strengths that would lead to them thriving here, and I would do that every time more than willingly, more than happily. I would spend hours on the phone if I needed to, just to try and convince them that they'd earned it, just as their male counterparts had. Um, there was a woman that joined our academy several years ago actually, and she's going to stick in my mind forever.
Speaker 2:She had a first class comp sci degree from a Russell Group University. She'd already been working in tech as a developer for over seven years, but the environment that she worked in was male dominated, unfortunately hugely misogynistic, and when she applied, I remember asking her why and said you've already got all these hard skills that we're going to teach you. You've got years of experience. But it came down to the fact that her previous experience had beaten her down so much that she just wanted to go back to basics and rebuild her confidence. Oh man, he wanted to find an organization that had a focus on diversity and inclusion, and um, we worked with her, primarily on rebuilding her confidence, before placing her with a client who embraced her fully, and she ended up transferring over and working for them permanently.
Speaker 1:She's still there now, years on, thriving, but it just goes to show how important having those female mentors, or any allies, is yeah, and then falling into the right company, how that can make such a difference to whether or not you want to stay in tech, whether you want to move forward in that company. Oh well, yeah, it to. To make her feel that way. I've heard this on on here before about, um, people, some companies, they'll say, oh, we're really inclusive. You know, we have a women in tech group and then when you look into it, it's a slack channel and that's it and you go well, it's a bit more than the slack channel.
Speaker 1:It's actually how you feel going to work every day, because a lot of companies do just have that very high level oh, we do this and we do that. Um, she can cope. We refer to it as you put out one tweet on international women's day and you've done that. You've done your bit for the year. Well done you. But your female employees, um, actually don't feel very included in day to day. They're kind of mapping out their route of how they can move on to the next company or even leave tech entirely, because that lady felt like her confidence had just really been knocked and that she wanted to start from scratch. But, yeah, I mean, hopefully she went on and really rebuilt her confidence and went on to a good role and they really valued her. But how sad that people feel that way in their jobs.
Speaker 2:I know, absolutely awful. I think you know transparency, ownership, mentoring, role models absolutely vital. If you're a tech leader, regardless of your gender, you've got to live that and promote it. You've got to have these discussions with people. You've got to call out injustices as and when you see them. We've all got to be part of the solution and that comes through talking about it being transparent. I can't believe that she had to go through that and essentially go back to basics and start again, but what a wonderful thing that she's absolutely smashing it now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and how her confidence would have been built up a little bit quicker is she'd found her network as well. Like you, talking about mentoring so important, people always think, as well, mentoring has to be done internally in a company and people think, oh, we don't have a mentoring program, so I don't have a mentor. We have a mentoring program, naturally in our community, because we wanted to connect people that wanted to help and people that needed help, and ours is free and we encourage people just to connect with whoever you think can help you. They don't always have to have the right skills that you're looking for, but they could help in other ways in terms of moving into leadership or soft skills or whatever it may be. But finding that person that can turn around and say you know what? You're not the only person that's feeling that way as well, just being told like, oh, I'm not the only one that's got imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:Exactly that in that way as well just being told like, oh, I'm not the only one that's got imposter syndrome exactly that one thing that I love that we do. Every every new cohort that joins our academy, I join them for an admittedly very long chat where I'll basically just talk about myself. It sounds very self-indulgent, but I basically tell them my life story and through that, the, the reoccurring theme is my failures and how that that's kind of benefited me or didn't benefit me, or what I learned from it and what happened. Next big part of it is my battle against imposter syndrome, which came especially when I joined the board, and after we get the the bit about me out, the way it involves into, evolves into a really great discussion. Everyone gets involved, everyone shares.
Speaker 2:We offer advice, we call people out saying, well, why are you saying that? That sounds really negative? That's great and um, from that, so many conversations come out of it and we touch on some really interesting topics like gender equality, like racism, sexism, pay and um, just having that open, transparent conversation. It's so, so important. Um, I try my very best to live what I preach and my team very much does as well, and we're very lucky to have some really great people that we work with that are willing to share their stories so that other people can learn from it and share theirs as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and that sharing those failures is so important not just for you as well because then you notice you think actually that was a failure and perhaps I did need to be told that I did need to learn that lesson. And then, almost talking about it, notice you think actually that was a failure and perhaps I did need to be told that I did need to learn that lesson. And then, almost talking about it, you think how can I move on and move forward and also help other people along the way? Because we do have that shiny Instagram world going on where everyone's like ah, do you remember? Five years ago I decided to start a business and look at me now and that's the only thing you see. You don't see everything in between that happened to that person to get there. You just see the, the LinkedIn post of this time last year. I stepped out into the world and started a business and you think, yeah, but I really want to know what happened in between, because I guarantee you had lots of failures and lots of challenges.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it wasn't always that shiny, no, and it could really help other people that are thinking about doing the same thing and the actual reality behind it. Um, we spoke a little bit earlier about ai, um, so I just wanted to ask you, looking ahead five years, what does responsible ai in hiring look like to you? Um, can you paint us a picture of the tools, safeguards, governance models that you'd like to see become industry standard?
Speaker 2:Great question.
Speaker 2:To be honest, to refer back to my earlier comment, I like to think that AI tools will be used more so as an add-on to traditional hiring rather than instead of.
Speaker 2:I do truly believe that, regardless of how advanced AI tooling gets the focus on soft skills and recruitment, certain assessments, they can't be fully taken out of the hands of humans. I think, in terms of government governance, organisations utilising these tools should ensure transparency and accountability, having a person or a team that's responsible for the actions and decisions that are made by these systems and, therefore, the results. Organisations that use these tools should be able to understand and, more importantly, explain how their AI systems are making decisions, and they should continuously be monitored and evaluated to identify any issues, any potential biases that arise. Law that New York City passed to ensure fair hiring and promoting practices for employers, I think was a really interesting one and something that we should bear in mind as well in in five years time. And, most importantly, companies just have to be mindful in their approach to using AI in hiring, to set the standard for ethical AI use in hiring and promoting practices. We're still fairly early on, so mindfulness is key and in five years time I would.
Speaker 1:I would like to think that we've got something similar to the New York City law and that levels of compliance are high yeah, definitely, and and you touched upon that before as well about data and that it learns from that data and it has been mindful of what we are feeding it, because it is just gonna learn from what we're feeding it and, unfortunately, those biases and, unconscious or conscious, they're still there. So if we're just going to feed them into AI, they're still going to give give us the the wrong results. So you're right, it's being mindful of things and not just thinking. I'm fab, I threw that through AI and it spat out the perfect candidate, and then you interview them and you think how did you get here? Jenny, I could keep talking to you, um, if I had the time today to to keep going, because I'd love to keep picking your brains on this topic, um, but we're already out of time. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your thoughts with us today.
Speaker 2:It's been a pleasure no, thank you so much for having me really great conversation. Thank you very much for your time thank you and for everybody listening.
Speaker 1:Thank you, as always, for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
