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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Thriving at Work with ADHD & Autism
Join us in this episode as we dive into the world of workplace neurodiversity with Leanne Maskell, a former Vogue model turned lawyer and ADHD coach. Leanne is the founder of ADHD Works and a renowned advocate for neurodiverse employees, having advised global giants like Disney and Microsoft on harnessing ADHD at work.
In this insightful conversation, Leanne shares her expertise on how ADHD and Autism impact individuals in the workplace. From handling feedback sensitivities to fostering effective communication with colleagues, she unpacks practical strategies for making neurodiversity a strength in any career.
Discover Leanne's essential career tips for those who think differently, learn how to navigate workplace neuro-biases, and gain valuable insights into breaking down stigma surrounding neurodiversity in professional environments.
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Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the Managing Director, Community and Partnerships at she Can Code, and today we are discussing thriving at work with ADHD and autism. I have a phenomenal lady with me today with an incredible journey to share. I've got Leanne Maskell, a former Vogue model, turned lawyer and ADHD coach. Leanne is the founder of ADHD Works and a renowned advocate for neurodiverse employees, having advised global giants like Disney and Microsoft on harnessing ADHD at work. Welcome, leanne, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:It's a pleasure to have you on. You have one of the most interesting backgrounds. I think that we've had on here so far, so so got so many things that we want to ask you today, but can we start off with a little bit about about you, a little bit about your background?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'll say I'm Leanne and I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 26, and before then my life was very chaotic and very stressful and I always felt different from other people but couldn't understand why. And it's funny when I hear people explain me, like you just did, because it feels like a very different person. I still feel quite chaotic, but then that diagnosis was really life changing and enabled, enabled me to understand what, how my brain was working. First of all I tried to kind of use it as a tool to trap myself into being normal and then I realized actually life wasn't so bad before and I discovered ADHD coaching along the way, which really really helped me to do that and kind of inspired me to share information with other people, because my GP's waiting list for an ADHD assessment was seven years long. So I wrote a book called ADHD and A to Z to try and help people on that list and now turned into running.
Speaker 2:Adhd works and I was also diagnosed with autism last year. So it's been a journey and the last four years have been completely different from my first half of my life. So we now coach individuals that are ADHD autistic, all their loved ones, and we have trained over 500 coaches globally and I've written five books and companies, so it's been a very different uh, it's kind of like before diagnosis and after diagnosis yeah, and it's.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because you say you diagnose as an adult. That's such a conversation as well at the moment about people being diagnosed late, and you said it's a seven-year wait. That's just. It seems insane. It must be quite difficult to be diagnosed as an adult as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and unfortunately it's even longer now.
Speaker 2:So I actually presented to directors of the World Health Organization about this, because when I was diagnosed so that was about seven years ago I didn't know anyone else with ADHD and couldn't find anything on the internet, and I was just told that there was medication available.
Speaker 2:But that medication actually made me really unwell in the beginning and I had to pay 200 pounds to talk to the psychiatrist at all, and so it was a really difficult time to go through, especially without any support. And now the waiting lists are like 10 years long in some parts of the UK and in some parts as well they have just cut them off completely, so people can't get any support. So it's really skyrocketed in the last few years with the pandemic and growing awareness. So it's reallyrocketed in the last few years with the pandemic and growing awareness. So it's really really difficult for people, and I think being diagnosed as an adult is something many people are experiencing for a number of factors, but one big one is that ADHD couldn't be diagnosed in adults in the UK until 2008. So there's a lot of us now finding out why maybe we've struggled so much throughout our life without knowing how to put our finger on it yes, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And your journey, you you've had such a fascinating journey from Vogue model, which has so many questions around that anyway, we should just do a whole different episode just on that. Um to lawyer, um to ADHD coach. How did your experience with ADHD and autism shape your career?
Speaker 2:path? Um, hugely, but I didn't really realize that at the time. Say, my career, I guess, started when I was 13 years old and my mum got me into modeling and I was in vogue and carried on modelling throughout my teenage years, which I really hated and didn't enjoy. But I didn't know how to say no, and I guess that's a combination of being young but also what I now know of all the HD, autism and ADHD, because things would happen like I would be instructed on how to stand and how to pose and often these were quite sexual and uncomfortable and I didn't know what to say. And I got really good at masking. Actually, modeling was really helpful for learning what people wanted from me and how to pose my face exactly in the way that they expected.
Speaker 2:And then when I moved over to England, I was scouted at 18 when I went to university. So someone came up to me in the street basically and asked me to do modeling. I said no. They said come and meet us. And then they told me to lose weight and I was like no, no, yeah, that's a great start. They said if you lose three inches off your hips, then we'll accept you, and I was like you have invited me. Wow, yeah, um. But then the person that scouted me said that they might lose their job if I didn't do it. So then I did it because I felt bad for this random stranger, so I didn't eat very much for a good year, um, but again, just like this huge vulnerability in even doing that in the first place. But I wasn't paid any money and like, very nearly in that situation, was put into debt because agencies can spend money in your name. So I just didn't even think to ask if, um, you know, things like hair appointments costed money or how much I was being paid which was often nothing or how I even got paid, and it was something I carried on doing.
Speaker 2:And when I graduated from university which I'd hardly attended, I did law, but I just felt like I was always one step behind everybody else. They all came back from the second year summer saying, oh, which vacation schemes have you applied for? And I was like, what is a vacation scheme? I was like, oh god, I'm already behind, I've already missed the boat. And then, as time went on, I realized that, first of all, these kind of legal jobs were just really inaccessible. There were so many interview rounds and so many people, and also everyone I talked to that was a lawyer, was really miserable and I graduated being like, what do I do with my life? So I carried on modeling, but despite, again, like really not liking it at all. But it was really addictive and I think, again it was a combination of not being able to say no and like the novelty because you never know what you'll do the next day. You find out every night.
Speaker 1:So okay, but that was really bad for my mental health doing it yes, yeah, I suppose it has its ups and downs of excitement, but not quite knowing what's happening yeah, it's like playing the lottery every day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, most of the time you're not doing anything and you're being disrespected by people and you're being called ugly by people and having how you look torn apart. So it's a really really difficult job to do for anyone and really bad how I think young people are targeted to do it because you're too young to know any different. Yeah, but I just took that as normal and then I would just try to do any job I could as well. So I asked friends of friends or random people in the hairdressers, like if they had any jobs, if I could go and work there and get work experience. But everything I did I kept quitting. After a few days, um, like maybe when I thought actually those people here are not happy or this is boring or I'm not good at it, I would quit. I would change industry completely, from transport law to restaurant PR and marketing for a hotel, like I did a lot of things, uh, and eventually I became really suicidal because I just felt like I didn't fit into the world and wasn't able to get or keep a job, and it does feel like being out of control of your own brain. It's really scary to wake up and I would wake up and just be terrified about what I would do by the end of the day, like what stupid decision I would make next, um, and so it always feels like you are trying to catch up with your brain. So now I understand that it was very much impacted by all the all the HD, because the ADHD part wanted, kept wanting novelty and autism was like we must find the perfect career because we're going to be in it forever. Uh, and yeah, it became very suicidal. Uh, that led me to eventually get the ADHD diagnosis, which I didn't even think I had.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I was able to get a job at the law society. So I worked in mental health and immigration law, which was really, really good. I really loved my job. I loved it so much. I was so determined not to quit that I lived over the road. Um, I was like I am not quitting this.
Speaker 2:Like I mentioned that, I used the ADHD to like trap myself into being normal.
Speaker 2:But I was still not normal and learning about ADHD, especially through things like coaching and writing the book, helped me to realize that I could create my own career that worked for me, because I think working in that employment industry was really difficult for me, just with things like the office environment and noise and knowing what I should do and being really really overly aware of what was on my screen all the time and how I worked quite differently from everyone else, like I would finish all my work in an hour and then like, what do I do now?
Speaker 2:So, yeah, and then I think since then, creating my own company, like many other neurodivergent people, has been incredible because I've been able to work in my own ways that work for me and really mission focused, and all of my ideas I just turn them into reality and overnight harder for my team to keep up with me, but and you know it's not perfect by any means I'm very tired all the time, but we've been able to do really amazing, amazing things. So I think, like this neurodivergence is just a part of who you are and you just have to learn to work with it and find what's up oh, I mean founding your own company.
Speaker 1:That's not for the faint-hearted either so you know that is, I think, something that a lot of people want to try and then when they do it they're like, oh my gosh, you know you just have to keep moving. But yeah, that is incredibly brave as well. Many neurodiverse people they struggle with feedback and workplace communication. Can you share why that is and how individuals and employers can better navigate it? You mentioned there a little bit about you were trying to figure out the way that you work as well on being in office environments. Um, is there anything you know that individuals and employers can can help to to better navigate the way that neurodiverse people kind of you know struggle with that feedback and communication?
Speaker 2:yeah, so there is something called the double empathy problem. So it's often heard in our society that autistic people apparently do not have empathy, but actually something like 75 percent of people surveyed were hyper empathetic, and that's because we're probably usually trying to process every single interaction to understand how we should be acting. It does feel a bit like being an alien and as a human, and that's because our brains just process information differently, I personally think, in like a common sense way. I'm like why don't people just speak directly and say what they mean, that mean what they say, um, but it's like if you go on holiday and you try to order something in a restaurant and the person speaks a different language to you, like you both are just on different operating systems, yeah, and so that makes us very naturally prone to rejection and feelings of insecurity and being on high alert. So it said that children with ADHD receive 20,000 more negative comments than their peers by the age of 12, and you can understand why because from everything from like tying your shoelace or just natural things you do that you don't realize are odd, and so when we go into the working environment, there are usually very clear, unwritten rules that everyone should be following, but they are often not written down anywhere of like what should you do if you finish your work or how much should you be, um, you know, in the office versus taking a lunch break, because although you might have an hour for lunch, does that mean you should take the whole hour? And then you have the impact of executive functioning issues as well, particularly with ADHD here, where it said that we have a 30% developmental delay or difference in executive functioning skills, and one of those is emotional regulation. And then there is something called rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is not a medical condition, but it's that extreme emotional pain to real or perceived rejection that can last for a certain period of time days, weeks but for me that was what was making me suicidal every time I got rejected from a job. So it was very helpful to realize that this was actually something that other people experienced.
Speaker 2:It was a thing, yeah, and then in the workplace that can be really difficult, because we might attach narratives to things like performance reviews and feedback, and I do think that the corporate world is very much focused on the need to provide some kind of feedback or expectation to find something, even if it's arbitrary, like I remember one manager told me they would never mark anyone as exceeding expectations in all areas because then they wouldn't have anything to do in the future. And I was like, how would I try them? They're never going to win this game, so why would I even bother? Um, but things like that. So I think it's it can be really difficult.
Speaker 2:My advice is to everyone is to explain the reasoning behind things, like if you have to just check a box, just tell someone that you have to just check a box. And and I guess for people like that manager, um, it's difficult because I guess she did tell me the reason behind it, but I didn't agree with it. But it's trying to deliver it with reassurance of like this doesn't matter in the long run it doesn't mean anything, and I think context is always really useful, as is written information and time to process, because neurodivergent people might need more time to process information and so not springing something on them in a meeting, it's hugely helpful, it's helpful for me and also we have the thing of uh, we often see in kind of the office environment. People might message and say, oh, can we have a quick chat about this thing? And for me that I equate that to. You are being fired, you are in trouble. Yes, right, and again, this is actually not great for anybody because you're like yeah you tend to freeze in five minutes.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I mean that's where I get fired. Um, I literally every day at my job I was like I'm gonna get fired, I'm gonna get fired, and my colleagues were like we don't fire people here, they're like people don't get fired. I was like, but and I guess it makes sense as well with modeling where I'd be fired for, like, having uneven eyebrows. So it makes sense the trauma there. But, um, yeah, so I think it's just trying to remember that the person in front of you is not a mind reader. For both neurodivergent and neurotypical people, they're not a mind reader. They probably think differently to you, they've had different experiences. And be kind. It sounds really simple, it's. It's really easy just be kind and have that extra awareness and you know it's as simple as saying can they have a quick chat?
Speaker 1:it's nothing bad, don't worry yes, just that little few words on the end. It's nothing bad, don't worry. And some things are just easier to explain to someone on the phone rather than writing them a message. And sometimes you do get that. Hey, you're free for five minutes, but when it comes from somebody above, you're like oh gosh it's nice being the person above now.
Speaker 2:when you are trying to give that message, you're like, oh, how do I put this in a way that's not going to cause anxiety? What is the best time to send this message? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you talk about making ADHD and autism work for you at work and you've explained some of those ways to help with communication there. What are a few practical ways that neurodivergent individuals can start doing that today? How can they make adhd and autism work for them at work?
Speaker 2:um, I think it comes first of all with understanding your strengths and what you're interested in. Yeah, because we have interest-based nervous systems, so if we're interested in something, we will be able to hyper focus, onocus on it all day, every day. This means that we might be good at really difficult tasks. Like I could write a report in a day. That would take my colleagues months, but the tasks that would take them two minutes would take me days. So things like an Excel spreadsheet that we had to update every month and it did not matter how many times I was chased or trained or did this excel spreadsheet, it was just never going to happen, like I just couldn't do it and things like timesheets for lawyers you know we say that all the time like administration, filling in a form, performance review kind of development meetings, administration can be really really difficult, which is hard for workplace people because they see these tasks as easy and not the hard tasks.
Speaker 2:For example, I'm coaching quite a few people right now that are extremely highly achieving within their jobs but they really struggle with these little administrative challenges and that means that their work doesn't really know what to do with them, because they're really excellent but they're not doing what they need to be doing to kind of finish that work off in terms of dotting the i's. Yeah, so I mean, understand your strengths, what you're good at. We do this in coaching. There's a great test online called via character strumps, and look at how much of your day-to-day environment incorporates those strumps and how much you're using them, and also look at your challenges and what you struggle with. We also use a great quiz and it's called positive intelligence, which is available online for free as well, and that one covers the ways that we might self-sabotage and that might be things like avoidance or people pleasing.
Speaker 2:So understand your strong points and weaker points and then adapt your environment to work with them, because I think, especially when it comes to neurodivergence, we're like what is the answer, what are the tips and tricks and ultimately it's going to be different for everyone. Like you are your best person to tell you that answers to that and you know what works for you. But then taking the initiative to try and develop these, ask for help, although that can be really difficult for us, but try to get help for these areas of challenge. So, for example, that excel spreadsheet. I once asked a colleague to help me after months of struggling and it was amazing, she was like I'll do it for you. Every time I was like what really, um, people love to be asked for?
Speaker 2:help as well it was one of my most amazing moments. I was like what I could have asked you six months ago? Um, yeah, like ask for help, but just um. You know, I think be careful in that, because it's a big decision to talk about things like neurodivergence at work, but you don't necessarily have to say that it's because you have ADHD or or are autistic. You can just ask for help around things like is it okay if work from home, I'm going to go work in a quieter part of the office, etc. There's so many things that you can do, but often we are paralysed by fear. But recognise that you're deserving of that and accept yourself as you are because it's your brain. You got it for life. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love that. So taking the time to figure out your strengths and even taking a test to try and figure that out, because that's something that we don't do, especially when you enter the world of work. You kind of go along with what's happening and where your career is kind of pushing you in whichever directions your first job and then like getting on okay and get to your second one that you never really take the time to stop and think what am I good at or which areas am I being pushed into? That I don't really want to do. And I remember years ago I was being pushed into public speaking, which I was so grateful looking back to the people that were pushing me in that direction, but it just wasn't for me because I was standing there thinking I'm'm like fight or flight and I'm thinking I just want to run, I don't want to be in front of people, don't want to do public speaking, and I had really had nothing at that point to talk about anyway. And then that came as, as my career went on and there was opportunities where obviously I have to now stand up and do public speaking.
Speaker 1:But I feel like I was being pushed in that direction and I had a lady recently at one of our events who she was a speaker and um, and I had no idea she was nervous, but she turned around and she said you know, I'm a little bit nervous about public speaking. I was like, well, it's fine, like I'm standing right next to you and I know the feeling, don't, don't worry about it. And she said to me um, I need to think of like a get out. She said, like an escape route, because she said I have ADHD. And she said, and I like to visualize an escape route If I need to go, I need to go. And she said shall I just signal to you that I'm done, I don't want to go through the rest of my presentation. And I was like, absolutely, just, you know, just be done, I can pick up the rest of your presentation or I can just move on, and that's fine.
Speaker 1:But she wanted to voice that as to make herself feel more comfortable, that if she wanted to go, she could just go and I would just pick it up. And it was like, and she'd done her presentation, absolutely fine, you would not know that she was nervous, but she just kind of wanted to to voice it to get it, you know, to make herself feel more comfortable, um, and she did an absolutely fab job, but I was standing there thinking, gosh. I just know the feeling, that feeling of just trying to calm and uh, and know your strengths, because when I was younger, public speaking was not a strength and something that I just really didn't want to do. Um, and you, you kind of get pushed into things if you're not clear on on things that you want to do in your career, um, to be honest.
Speaker 1:So, um, you've coined a term, uh, neuro biases. Um, when talking about colleagues and managers, view, uh, view, neurodiverse people. That's how they view them. Um, what are some of the most common ones in terms of neuro biases, um, and how can we challenge them?
Speaker 2:um, I think I made this because there's not one version of normal.
Speaker 2:But what you just said there about being pushed in a certain direction, we assume that everyone wants this exactly, that's the normal route right and actually I think it's quite normal to think of an escape route and that kind of ties to what you're earlier as well, like knowing what you're. What you find difficult means that you can create strategies that work for you, no matter how kind of weird you might feel they sound to other people. But that tiny reassurance can be the difference between doing something and having a panic attack, um, and I think neurobias is basically designed here to highlight that. So, for example, eye contact, um, you know, in our society we have said that making eye contact means that you are present. That's the marker of good in interviews, etc. But why? Why do we think that, like you know, uh, other cultures, it might be a sign of disrespect, or why is it so important? And if people are struggling with making eye contact, why does that mean that they wouldn't be hired company? So it's a really interesting one there and around things like communication as well.
Speaker 2:So a family member of mine explained how difficult they found the working environment because they kept getting all this negative feedback from people they worked with, because they would say to them on a Monday morning, how was your weekend? And they would say it was fine, and they wouldn't ask them how their weekend was, and they would tell them about their weekend. And they said but why would I lie and pretend that I care about your weekend, like I don't. And again, it's just recognizing that just because someone doesn't ask you doesn't make small talk. Really it doesn't mean that they don't like you. Uh, which is ironic for the neurotypical people here. Um, and then I think the same as what I just mentioned about the cognitive neuro bias, and that we assume that things like writing a book is hard. I've written five books. I find it very easy actually writing a book. I've much preferred doing to changing the bed sheets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, again finding your strengths, what you're good at exactly into that.
Speaker 2:Our society has just decided that that is normal and everyone wants to be a manager and maybe they don't. Maybe they don't want to be a manager or maybe they don't want to do public speaking. Actually it reminds me of modeling, because I remember working with a model agent who told me she said I can just go into any supermarket and wave a magic wand over the girl working in the till and make her a supermodel. And I was like what if she doesn't want to be a supermodel? What if she doesn't want to do modeling? Um, so it's those kind of biases I think of, essentially assuming that everyone acts in the same way that we do in around things like learning.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I train coaches in a six-week course that has attracted a lot of criticism for it being six weeks.
Speaker 2:I could have easily made that course one year, two year, three years, but, um, I would personally get bored. I don't want to make a course that just drags out unnecessarily to tick a box of how long something should be like. I did a three-year law degree and I can't tell you anything that I learned. Um, but I managed to get a good grade because I could pass the exam. But this course I made it so that all of the information is there and it's relevant to the person and it's actually useful and will help them go out and use these skills and they can go back and watch these videos whenever they want and in the future, like. I also don't see the point of like cutting them off in the lessons and expecting them to memorize it forever, and then we have live lessons where we bring it all together and practise it together, and so it's just seeing that things can be done differently and that's not. It doesn't mean that that's a bad thing.
Speaker 1:It just means that it's a different thing to how your brain sees normal, yeah, and practical practical skills the you know a year's worth of learning the history of something that is just not at all relevant. The actual practical skills, the you know a year's worth of learning the history of something that is just not at all relevant. Um, the actual practical skills, um, the. The fact that you said not everybody wants to be a manager.
Speaker 1:I actually had a lady on here recently who said that. She said I had to voice to my manager please don't consider me for promotion because I don't want to be a manager. She was like I want to be really good at what I do, I don't want to be a manager. She was like I want to be really good at what I do, I don't want to look after people. And that is like a crossroads that you reach in your career where everybody assumes next step, you're going to look after people, you're going to manage your team. And she said and like you said earlier, people are not mind readers. So she had to voice that to her manager just to say please don't consider me for that yeah, being a manager is hard.
Speaker 2:Wow, it's hard, and it requires a completely different set of skills to whatever your job was before yeah people are not trained in their skills or how to manage people. They're just assumed that they'll be happy because now they're managing people. But now not only are they doing their own work, they're doing other people's work.
Speaker 1:Yeah people are unpredictable as well some people just think I don't know about that. Um, it's powerful. But also concerning that 56 of neurodiverse people, they still hide their condition from their manager. So what needs to change in the workplace culture to shift that?
Speaker 2:step. Yeah, it's a really interesting one because ultimately, even I work with a lot of companies and they're all focused on how can we get more people to like disclose neurodivergence at work. But then you think, why, then what happens? What's the benefit of disclosing this to your manager, especially if there are no policies in place that tell you's the benefit of disclosing this to your manager, especially if there are no policies in place that tell you what the point of that is? Because right now it does make you vulnerable. You have no way of predicting what will happen next, how receptive your manager or anyone else at your company will be if they see that as a problem. And there's a lot of bias and stigma in the news, especially god, with america and uh, rfk saying that autism is caused by vaccines and yeah, it's so. There is so much stigma around that you can't really take the risk on just disclosing it for fun. And also it's having that reason to say I made all of these template policies on our website that people can access and companies, so then it's made, then they can take it to their work and say hello, would you like to implement this? Um, that's my yeah, because then it's made and it just spells it all out. But you also have to make sure that people are trained on this, that they understand and it kind of goes back to what we were saying about managers they're not trained on having empathetic conversations.
Speaker 2:In my old job, when I worked in law, I had to manage in quotation marks about 40 people, so they were all top top lawyers and they were volunteers. So it was really hard. So I went to a management training session and I asked them like uh, how do you manage volunteers? Because all of their management advice was based on the idea that people would do what they say that they are going to do. Well, you know their job description and KPIs. And I said, how do you do it if they don't have that? And they were like well, we don't cover that, what? So I actually wrote a whole book on this. It's called ADHD, works at work, and we have a whole management course.
Speaker 2:But it's kind of like and I do think that experience made me a really good manager, because I had to figure out how to keep everybody happy and get the most out of them in an environment where maybe their work wasn't necessarily going to be kept as it was, because we would change it, um, for free. They were not even being paid. So I think it comes down to figuring out the person in front of you and how they work best and making them feel safe safe enough to share whatever they might be going on. Um, I always get the question as well of like, how do I make someone disclose that I think they've got ADHD? And I'm like, then, what would you do? And often we don't think about that of like, oh, actually I'm not sure, um, because we have a very problem solution culture.
Speaker 2:But instead of doing that, uh, if you're a manager, you can talk to the person about the behavior that is making you think they have ADHD, for example, um, and that is probably most likely to be a negative, given the fact it's called a disorder, but it might be a strength, like their ability to, you know, do a huge amount of work in an hour, or the fact that they're working late at night, or, you know, it can be so many different things.
Speaker 2:But just talking to them and saying I've noticed this, um, and actually I made a whole neuroaffirmative course on this, which is just basically about having good conversations like, and I think it's a skill that we all really really need more than ever before, because the workplace in particular is becoming so politicized and especially with new laws that are coming in but around making people feel safe and being able to just have conversations and work alongside people, even if they don't share your point of view or they have views that you don't agree with at all and feel very passionate about, um, but you still have to work next to them. So I think these skills are really really crucial for everybody to have in the workplace, and including things like asking for help, um, which can be really scary if you're like well, if it's not going to be listened to, then why would I make myself vulnerable like that?
Speaker 1:yes, exactly, and and you are right when, when people do say, then you think as a manager that obviously you're then more mindful of the fact that that person has revealed that.
Speaker 1:I remember chatting with a lady who said to me she was mindful of she had a couple of people on her team who were neurodiverse and she said in different ways.
Speaker 1:And she said I was mindful of even the smaller things just to make sure that they felt comfortable at work. Because she said, when we did simple things like moving around seats and teams and desks, she said to a lot of people that's just like oh, we're moving desks and we're up and we're going, but to some people that makes a really big difference to your day-to-day and where you're sitting, and even in an open plan office sometimes it can become very overwhelming for for everybody but being moved around and then thinking actually I'm not quite comfortable where I'm sitting. So she said I was suddenly more mindful of things like that. Like you know, are you okay? Are there any requests as to where you would like to go? Um, it was just the tiniest things that would really help people out and just by saying you know, instead of just forcing people, by the way you're going over there now and you're just going to be surrounded by a lot of people. You keep working as you've been working, you know off of your pop.
Speaker 2:I think doing that for everyone, because there's an amazing statistic of nine out of ten people over the age of 50 that are autistic are likely undiagnosed. So everyone has their own needs and whether they've got a diagnosis of disclosed or not, like that helps everybody and that's why this work is really, really important. Um, and recognizing that again, they don't have to fix them, because we we're as humans. We like to fix things and come up with solutions and think we must have all the answers, but you don't like the person in front of you does. And I had an experience recently on the training where I mentioned something about being autistic and the trainer, like they used a metaphor and I said, sorry, leanne, I used a metaphor and I was like it's okay, I can understand the metaphor, I do understand, I do understand it's fine, but uh, you know, it's just that thing where they think they're being mindful and helpful and they have the best of intentions, but it's actually like you're like all right, thank you, I did, I do. Yes, I've made it 32 in life.
Speaker 1:I love that you, um, manage volunteers as well. That is a totally different mindset, because I'm a volunteer and I always wonder with my manager, who looks after me, and how she treats her own team different to volunteer team different, because, having like being a manager, I'm mindful of her because I think you just tell me what to do. I don't care what you tell me what to do, but just tell me what to do and I'm going to do it because I'm here to be a volunteer. No questions asked, I'll do whatever. And then she says she has some volunteers who they're meant to be going off and doing something else and then she'll find them elsewhere and they're like doing some ironing somewhere.
Speaker 1:And she's like I didn't ask her to do that, she to do that. She's just wandered off because it's the mindset of a volunteer of kind of like well, I'm here, I work for free. Actually, I could do whatever I want and nobody's gonna tell me because I'm not getting paid. But it doesn't help at all. It doesn't help your manager, who's like trying to juggle volunteers being non-volunteers, so trying to manage all of those volunteers that must have it, must have really made you as a person to be honest, I was very lucky because they were very passionate and but that was difficult as well, because I was in the middle of them and the company I was working for.
Speaker 2:So we need I needed them to tell me what we thought about things like Brexit and the coronavirus pandemic, etc. What they think about this law, which was hugely, hugely stressful. And uh, if no one replied, then no one replied and I was the one responsible for that, and then I would often take their work into the work, into the workplace, and then maybe it would get changed or edited and taken out and they would be quite upset and uh, you know, so it was a really difficult job to do to keep lots of different people happy, but I do think I think I did a good job of it. They were all really, really, because I think they could see that I was doing my best and they were all passionate. And then I think what you just described is funny, because I thought actually it applies to both employees and and volunteers.
Speaker 2:We just don't think of it in that way, because even if someone is employed by you, they're not necessarily going to do what you think they're going to do, and that's why that I don't want to say stupid, because I was like if they just did what it said on this piece of paper, they wouldn't need training, would they like the managers wouldn't need training if people just followed instructions. But that's what I've tried to do in the company is create a culture where we don't need managing necessarily. So we've got a really small team and I honestly don't manage uh, anyone really. I have one, one employee and she manages me. I would say more than me much.
Speaker 1:I love that. Um, I wanted to ask you a little bit about your upcoming book and we have some copies for our community. We run a competition recently. We were very lucky to have some copies of it to give away. But your upcoming book it dives into the overlap between ADHD and autism. What's one myth of misunderstanding about this and this overlap that you're hoping to clear up with this book?
Speaker 2:oh, thank you. Well, this book I wrote it after being diagnosed with autism. I'm really wanting to unpick the two. So autism and ADHD couldn't be diagnosed together in the same person until 2013. So that would be a big myth, the myth of, I think for me it was the myth of you don't seem autistic, because when I was going through that process it was very different to when I went through the ADHD process, because I don't even remember telling anyone about that. But now I'm a lot more aware and I'm a lot more conscious and obviously do the job I do.
Speaker 2:And then I had to write an article for the Telegraph about it. So I was like, well, I better tell my family in case they see it and say why didn't you tell us? And we found out through the news and, uh, they were not really very receptive. They were basically saying you're not autistic. Um, why do you want another label? Okay, you're fine. And I was like what? And I can kind of see their point of view, because I did. When I was diagnosed I did feel like, wow, I've lied my whole life to myself and everybody else, because I didn't realize how much of my life I was masking and forcing myself into situations I didn't want to be in, and the way I coped with that was by going out a lot and getting really drunk and like bringing lots of people together and then running away yeah so, uh.
Speaker 2:So I could see that point of view and I guess I really wanted to just make that clear and also help people you know, especially loved ones of people that might be all dhd, because it's very unlikely that most people are gonna, that are autistic and adhd, will have access to a diagnosis of both or even know about that, because getting one assessment is hard enough if we're like seven year waiting list, so getting two is even harder. And then the criteria is so outdated because it is based on little boys and one presentation of autism that I wanted to make it clear. And then I guess for me as well. Um, from a personal point of view, I did the talk in a clear and then I guess for me as well.
Speaker 2:Um, from a personal point of view, I did the talk in a school and a parent said to me oh, but you've probably had a really good life and really good upbringing.
Speaker 2:And I was like, no, I'm not. And that's the broader thing where I felt a real sense of responsibility to um share my experiences, including how horrible they were, because I felt, yeah, like young people today, they're in a really tough position and seeing people that have gone through similar, really tough positions and then can say, actually, it turns out okay in the end. And this is how it's really really important, because I think we're living in a world where it's all glamorized and you go on social media and you see people overnight success, famous, whoa, brilliant but like you don't see all of the reality and the struggles and how they got there especially with modeling as well like that is an industry that I think really needs shining light on um. So it was really great and I turned on a publisher's offer for it because they wanted me to basically make a guidebook and I was like, no, that's exactly counter to the point that I'm trying to make. So and it's been really amazing to publish it and really, really incredible to see the change that it's created um already.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, I love that. It's something in our community as well, that we love our ladies to share the challenges that they're facing, because you're so right, people post all the good things and then you miss all of the challenges, even things like ladies that are thinking about starting their own businesses. We want to hear all the failures before you got to the point where your business worked, because then you you actually get to see how hard things are, and we want to hear about all of the failures so people can learn from them. But you do have that sometimes, that instagram view of everything that looks glossy and wonderful and then you try and do it and you think, oh, maybe I'm failing, because everybody else looks fantastic in their gym wear every day and my business is failing, um, so, yeah, we, we try and encourage that as well. Please share as many stories as you can to help other ladies to connect with other people, um, and so they don't have to experience that or can hopefully learn from from your mistakes as well.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna say it's ironic because I think that that is actually the reason that ADHD works has become so successful.
Speaker 2:Like, I've got, somehow, unintentionally, 78,000 followers on LinkedIn, which is the most platform to be famous, but it's because I just posted on there and I didn't want to be employed ever again and I just posted about how hard life was and setting up a business and, like I was like I'm so overwhelmed and people really appreciate it because most people on LinkedIn are being like here's the five-step strategy to getting a million followers. If you follow this and buy my course, you can be like me, but I just, you know, share with myself and I think, as a coach as well, it's really important that we do that, because you don't have to be like perfect, perfect does not exist, like, and you never achieve it, and there's never a point where you're going to be like oh, now I'm happy, but it's getting that kind of success and then being like well, I still don't go outside. So there's never a magical point where you're like, oh, yay, perfect and that and that's okay.
Speaker 1:Now, yeah that's exactly that linkedin post where they go. A year ago, I decided to start this business and look where I am and you think brilliant. Thanks for sharing that on LinkedIn, other than sharing everything that happened in between Amazing. Well, there are so many things I could ask you about being a founder of a business and everything else, from model to being a lawyer, but we are already out of time. So thank you so much for coming on and having a chat today. It's been an absolute, already out of time. So thank you so much for coming on and having a chat today. It's been an absolute pleasure, leanne, thank you so much. Thank you and for everybody listening, as always. Thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
