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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Building resilience: How to overcome challenges
In this episode Hannah Cooke from Charlie Oscar shares her unconventional journey into tech, proving that transferable skills can open doors to exciting opportunities. While not in a traditional tech role, she leads product builds, emphasizing the power of project management, problem-solving, and communication.
Hannah offers practical advice for breaking into tech, from shadowing colleagues to collaborating on cross-functional projects. She also champions diversity, highlighting how inclusive teams drive innovation. Plus, she explores the concept of T-shaped professionals—balancing technical expertise with leadership skills to thrive in the industry.
Tune in for insights on career growth, resilience, and making an impact in tech!
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
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Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the Managing Director Community and Partnerships at she Can Code, and today we're discussing building resilience how to overcome challenges. I've got the wonderful Hannah Cook from Charlie Oscar with me today and she's here to share her unconventional journey into tech, proving that transferable skills can open doors to exciting opportunities. Welcome, Hannah thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 1:It's a pleasure to have you on. We want to hear all about your background and really dive into your career today, but can we kick off with a little bit about you, please, to set the scene for our ladies?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So I'm Head of Growth at Charlie Oscar, so my role works both internally, looking at how we can grow and build our capabilities as an agency, but also working externally with our clients looking at how they can grow their businesses as well.
Speaker 1:Amazing and I know you're a super busy lady, so thank you so much for finding time to come and share a little bit about your journey with our community. Share a little bit about your journey with our community. We have lots of ladies in our community that take non-traditional routes into tech and they always wonder how other people did that and whether they were successful. And you know you don't have to have that traditional computer science background in, and the more stories that we hear, um the better with with that for our community, because our ladies absolutely love to hear stories like yours. So your journey in particular is quite unique. So can you share how you transitioned into the industry and what inspired you to make?
Speaker 2:the move? Yeah, absolutely so. I actually started out in marketing, um working agency side, and then transitioned to brand side where I worked for some of the largest beauty brands in the world. That was a great experience, so working across marketing strategies and also growth strategies and a lot of what I do today is still rooted in that. But over time I found myself sort of naturally gravitating towards more of the tech side, working closely with multiple different teams, and I think one of the biggest reasons for that shift was that I have always been wired towards problem solving.
Speaker 2:So in marketing you're constantly analyzing performance, looking at data, looking at how to improve things, and that sort of translated quite well into products and tech, because at the end of the day, they're both about understanding challenges and breaking it down and building solutions that work.
Speaker 2:I think another key factor was my love for sort of analysis and strategies, understanding how things work at a deeper level. So I was always the person to look into user behavior, map out the customer journey and pinpoint exactly where we could improve processes. And that ability to step back and look at patterns and trends translated quite well into tech, quite naturally. But I think at first I didn't really see myself as in tech, because I wasn't coding or working in engineering, but I think I started to take on more projects that involved product development, which is some of the work that I do at Charlie Oscar. So looking at our tech capabilities and building products, and that's when I realized that tech isn't actually just about coding, it's about finding and creating solutions that solve real problems, and that's something that I think I've been doing all along, but just from a different angle. So in many ways my transition wasn't deliberate, but more of a gradual realization that these things I naturally enjoyed and excelled at were already sort of deeply embedded in the sort of tech world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that and we say that to so many of our ladies. You don't have to be technical to work in tech. And, out of curiosity, what did you want to do when you were younger? Because if you went back and told your younger self, by the way, I'd be working in tech, but did you ever think of that as a child? Or just? This is so far from from what you wanted to be yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I never thought that when I was younger I wanted to be a police officer, um, but I suppose a lot of sort of problem solving there, yeah, it's the same skills.
Speaker 1:Yeah, transferable skills. Yeah, exactly. It's interesting because some some ladies on here they say I, I loved maths and I just wanted to go down a maths route and I loved. You know, taking things apart in the house, I was very sort of into technology and I take things apart and and it's we absolutely love hearing the stories of the ladies that weren't techie when they were younger, because not everybody wakes up one morning and says I'd love to work in the tech industry and so we love to share. You know what, what kind of child you were and what subjects you studied, that and you eventually found your way into tech. Um, because they're like in in this episode, us talking about those transferable skills. There are so many that are relevant to tech, that are not just coding, um, and you emphasize that um as well, the the value of transferable skills. So what are some key skills that helped you succeed in, uh, tech product?
Speaker 2:builds. Yeah, there's. There's definitely a lot. So I think, um problem solving, which is one that I've spoken about and one that I think I'm kind of naturally wired at um, you know, nothing ever goes exactly as planned, so you need to be able to think critically, um be able to troubleshoot issues and find solutions, um, but not necessarily just thinking about what's broken, but also anticipating challenges before they happen and looking for opportunities to improve um, so I think that's a key skill.
Speaker 2:Also, project management being able to keep everything moving, coordinate across lots of different teams and ensure that everyone is working towards the same goal. That's quite a difficult one, but being adaptable while keeping things on track is really essential. And I think, finally, communication Again, these are really transferable skills that people will be using every day in all different roles, but it's so key being able to work across different teams, making sure that everyone's aligned. You know every team speaks their own sort of language, and the being able to translate ideas between teams and facilitate discussions and keep things clear and collaborative is one of the most valuable skills you can have. So you don't necessarily need to be the most technical person in the room, but if you can connect the dots and ensure that everyone is on the same page and working towards the same goal, then you become a really invaluable bridge between the teams, definitely and they're all invaluable soft skills as well.
Speaker 1:You don't tend to think of those sorts of skills when you're thinking I need to put together a technical cb and I need to show you know again, like coding skills or all the things that you think you would technical knowledge, but actually and many employers, a lot of our corporate ambassadors, have told us they're not the things that they look for.
Speaker 1:Actually it's the soft skills and all the things that you just said about, like being able to adapt and you know what happens when you see a challenge coming your way. How are you going to um, adapt and and make sure that the team is agile enough to to deal with what's coming that way and, um, some of those things. When you're transferring into tech, it's knowing how to, just to communicate that you can do all of those things. You did them in a previous role, you can do them now, and it's just painting that story of you know what I could transfer into tech because I can do all of these things anyway. But sometimes it's finding that, painting that picture for your next employer or you know wherever you're moving to, and I think that's something that sometimes people miss. They underestimate how important those soft skills really are. Definitely you're moving to um, and I think that's something that sometimes people miss. They underestimate what those, how important those soft skills really are.
Speaker 2:Definitely, I think, for women in particular. Um, you know, lots of women think they need to be 100 qualified on paper for a role and actually looking at your skill set and the skills that you flex every single day, like you say, could actually set you up really well for some of these opportunities. But I think women tend to doubt their abilities and their capabilities and want to be, yeah, say, 100% qualified.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because we get a lot of ladies say, well, we need a portfolio and I need to show that I've worked on projects and that's absolutely fine and, yes, you do. But a lot of the time, they're looking for even projects that have failed to say, well, what did you do Because that challenge came your way? Even if they didn't work, it's still good to say you know, this is what we did, instead of just panicking and all of your team members all throwing each other under the bus how did you manage to get through that challenge? And even if it didn't work out the way that you wanted it to work out, um, yeah, it's definitely something that people, um forget about and we get asked so much about what do I say in a technical interview and what if I'm taking a technical test? Absolutely so important for when those things come up?
Speaker 1:But, uh, definitely, soft skills are still up there with importance as well. Um, what about for women looking to break into tech without a traditional background? Then? What practical steps would you recommend? We spoke about it a little bit there. It's kind of like finding your story and how to present that um asable skills, but are there any practical steps that you would recommend?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think the good news is there are actually a lot of ways to break into tech without following the traditional path, and I think one of the easiest things you can do is to start where you are. And actually tech is all around us, even if you don't realise it immediately. We're all working with technology and software, with teams who touch tech. So one of the easiest ways to do it is by collaborating with teams that you might already be working with, so seeking out those opportunities to shadow other teams. So if you're curious about a particular project or a particular role, ask those team members if you can observe how they work for a day.
Speaker 2:A lot of people are really happy to share what they do and sometimes just seeing how someone thinks through a problem can be really eye-opening. But obviously upskilling is also key. So when it comes to that technical knowledge, obviously that is really important, but you don't necessarily need to go back into formal education. There's so many resources out there, whether that's Udemy or Coursera. There's so many kind of low cost or even free resources that are really great starting points. So even just understanding some of the basics of the sort of areas that you want to go into can make a huge difference for how you position yourself to some of those opportunities. So I think, instead of thinking about breaking into tech as this big, intimidating leap, starting by recognising how tech is already a part of what you do, because the more you explore and build on these existing touch points, the easier it becomes to make a transition.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that Because you're right. I think we can overthink it and think that's going to be, like you said, a big, a big leap and actually, I love that advice.
Speaker 1:Just start where you are. You don't even have to think about leaving your company or your job, or you know, if you really like your company as well, and they're the type of company that lets you be flexible and try something new. You might even be able to work on projects and help in different areas and try something without, like you said, you don't have to think about going back to school and where am I going to do this? And sometimes as well, that comes down to courses that are too much money, courses that you you can't commit to because they take up too much time and you have a full-time job. Um, so then it just becomes well.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, a couple of years ago I wanted to try something and I never actually got to do it. So you're absolutely right, try in those free courses, just dip into them and try them. If you don't like them, it really doesn't matter. And then, if you do want to go on and pay for something else, or you are somebody that has to feels that they work better within a classroom environment, then you can sign up for those courses when you want to. But you're right, there's so many brilliant resources, just to give them a go and decide then what you want to do next.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I think you know that's how I made my transition of you know within the company by working on those projects and sort of proving yourself across those. I I think you know that's how I made my transition of you know within the company, by working on those, those projects and sort of proving yourself across those. I also worked in marketing for 10 years and I don't have a marketing degree, so it just proves that you don't need to have those formal qualifications. Your job and work experience speaks volumes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it worries people, doesn't it? What's on their CV in terms of education and what they studied. And you think if you, if you had that thought and you didn't have that computer science degree from the age of 21, then you would never, we would never have people transitioning later in life into tech, as if that's kind of it. What you studied at university is kind of, you know, set your path for the rest of your career studied at universities, kind of you know, set your path for the rest of your career?
Speaker 2:yeah, so not true. Yeah, and I love the notion of a squiggly career. Um, I think you know we're moving more to that world. The industry is moving so quickly that it's just not realistic for people to hold the same positions for 30 years, because those positions that will have in 30 years don't even exist today. So I think being able to facilitate and empower people to understand how they can make more of those squiggly moves more intentionally will help set us, and also the industry, up for success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're right, because as you move through your career as well, you see other people and what they're doing, and you don't always get that visibility when you're at school or university and you kind of you have those things in your mind. You said you wanted to be a police officer. You know they come in and they talk to the children and and it is that you, you almost, I mean it's. A lot of people say now that you can't be what you can't see, but it means that you, you kind of latch on to those professions that you can see. And then as you go through your career, like you said, you went through marketing and then you thought, oh, actually there are a load of roles here that I didn't even know existed, that I could now start to find a way to move into.
Speaker 1:So you're right, sometimes you don't, you don't even know what's available to you until you hit the world of work and you go oh God, I was not expecting the world of work to be like this and all of these roles are suddenly there that are kind of perfect for you. But, like you said, they change so much in tech as well, which is, which is a good thing, so it's a fun, fun industry to be part of um. So you're passionate about diversity in tech as well. So what are some ways that companies can create more inclusive teams and hiring practices?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think this is a really important question and what I'm really passionate about. So I think, um, one of the biggest things that companies can do is rethink how they define qualified candidates. Um, I think, as we kind of just discussed, a lot of job descriptions are still written in a way that discourages people from non-traditional backgrounds from applying and using sort of rigid criteria like specific degrees. I think it's becoming outdated, and if companies shift their focus to skills and potential and adaptability, rather than just those credentials, then they'll be able to tap into a much wider and more diverse talent pool, those credentials, and they'll be able to tap into a much wider and more diverse talent pool. But I think diversity is only one side of it.
Speaker 2:I think inclusivity is also massive and something that companies don't talk about often enough, often very quick to talk about their diversity in their hiring practices, but it isn't enough.
Speaker 2:It's important to make sure that once people are in, they're thriving, and that's where inclusivity comes in.
Speaker 2:So, um, you know, if you build diverse teams but don't create an inclusive environment where people feel valued and supported and empowered, then those diverse voices won't stick around, and that's a huge opportunity, not just for those individuals but for the company as a whole.
Speaker 2:So really important to think about inclusivity, but I I think ultimately, diversity actively makes us better. So having different perspectives in the room leads to stronger decision making and better problem solving and more innovation, and that's what tech is all about. It's about solving problems, and if you only have one type of thinker at the table, then you're always going to miss out on creative solutions. So I think having a team with a mix of backgrounds and experiences and ways of thinking will naturally come up with better and more inclusive ideas. Um, so I think, yeah, companies should think about what's actually happening within the company and how are people being treated and spoken to and included in decision making, and do all of those voices carry the same weight meetings? Um, because one of the biggest gaps I see is that companies talk a lot about the diversity but ignore that sort of culture.
Speaker 1:Yes, or they love to do something externally, like International Women's Day, for instance. We always see that as companies will put out the odd message or a tweet somewhere and that's kind of their tick box for the year, and then we think, gosh, you know, there are so many great initiatives that you could be partnering with and you could really help your culture internally, um, chicken code included, we have so many corporate ambassadors that we encourage to work with us all year, not just around that iD date, because, you're so right, we know from the employees that we speak to you can tell the companies where, like we said before, if you have a thought of I'd like to try something new, I want to move around. There are certain companies where people just move around different departments and teams, whereas some companies, people just think I've had enough, I'm going to jump ship. So retaining those, uh, employees, it's not something that's done overnight, you're right, it's, it's really built into that culture and it's that again, it's not ticking a box, it's how do people feel every day when, when they come to work?
Speaker 1:Um, and we have a phrase on here. So a lady said it to me on our first I think it was our first ever episode. She said it's more than a slack group and it kind of stayed with me, because companies do that like, oh, we have a women in tech slack group and we're like right, anything else that you do, you know you're so so right, so there's so many layers to it yeah, exactly, I think it is very easy for companies to put out those performative gestures so, yeah, whether that's international women's day or any other moment in the calendar, but actually are they treating those women with respect?
Speaker 2:are they using the right, inclusive language? And I still hear it every day um, you know, across the industry, women being described in one way, and that's a different way to how men are described. And yeah, look, I think companies should be looking internally and what the case is, rather than prioritizing what the case could be definitely, and especially with what you mentioned about uh, diverse, uh voices at the table and encouraging more innovation.
Speaker 1:That I suppose from from a marketing side as well that stops disastrous marketing and PR incidents that could happen when there just weren't enough people to step in and say you know what?
Speaker 2:here's why we shouldn't do that yeah, yeah, yeah, and you see it all the time. You see things go out and often I think who was sat around that table and who agreed? Who sat in a room and said, yeah, we think this is a good idea. But often it's people who think in the same way and there's no diversity of thought. So that is often how these things get signed off and they go live, because there isn't that range of voices and opinions and experiences coming in to say I think differently, um, and like, yeah, like you say that's.
Speaker 1:That's how some of those disasters do happen yeah, and then the company's looking for someone to blame and you think actually it's probably just down to the way the team was made up and nobody actually was available to even notice. You know, and something most things are put out in good will and thinking, oh, that's going to be absolutely wonderful.
Speaker 2:And then you realize afterwards yeah, it comes down to the culture. Whether it's intentional or not, that's the culture that they're creating. That it's not a very diverse culture. It is sort of a one-minded culture exactly um.
Speaker 1:So what about the concept of T-shaped professionals? Because that is fascinating. So how can women balance technical expertise with leadership and communication skills?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love talking about this because I think the T-shaped model is such a game changer for career growth and I think it's one of the best ways to future-proof your career, especially in tech, where things are constantly evolving. So a T-shaped professional has deep expertise in one area so that's the vertical part of the T but also broad knowledge across different disciplines so the horizontal part and that combination makes you incredibly versatile, so you're not just great at one thing, but you also understand different functions and are able to work cross-functionally to drive better results. But I think the real power of the T-shaped model is that it allows you to see the big picture whilst still being able to be highly skilled in your domain. So moving beyond just execution and developing a mindset that thinks about impact and how different moving parts fit together to create a successful product or business. And that's why t-shaped professionals are often the ones who end up in leadership roles, because they can zoom in on details when needed, but also step back to the, the larger vision, and drive collaboration across teams.
Speaker 2:Um, I think, to balance technical and leadership skills, I think the key is to always stay curious and to learn enough about tech to be able to communicate with the different departments, but also develop those soft skills that we've spoken about. You don't have to be an expert, as I've said, but you should know enough to ask the right questions, or know enough to be dangerous, as they say. Oh, I love that, oh, that's good, that will stay with me.
Speaker 1:I love that. When you started describing that, though, about the T-shape I was just going to say to you you know what you just tried to me the making of a leaderto-day and the difference is somebody else is looking above that and thinking about how does that affect the wider business and everything else that comes with it. And they're the people that you see start to to move up the ranks. You don't have to go into leadership positions. We also always advocate that for that, as you can code, not everybody wants to move up and they want to be, you know, very skilled in what they do. But those that that tend to move into leadership positions, they do show they have those skills to think about the wider business. Um, and you, you're absolutely right there. And then those soft skills come back again um as as um as well. So, yeah, absolutely, I, I love that. The t, the t-shaped professional I haven't heard that one before, um, but that makes that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean, the best leaders aren't necessarily the most technical. They're the ones who can connect people and translate ideas across disciplines and inspire teams as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, because as well, when you step into leadership, you have that feeling. So many ladies have said this to me I'm expected to know everything. And you're so right there. You don't have to know everything. You have a team that knows everything, but you have to know enough to be dangerous. I absolutely love that, because a lot of ladies they do say to us in our community I'm expected to know everything. I'm a new leader. Everybody thinks I have all the answers and actually you don't have to have all the answers. You almost need to calm down at that moment. I think I don't have to have all the answers. My team and myself need all the answers and I need to connect the dots and make sure that the right people connected and can do their jobs well. But it almost takes a moment in your career to sort of think actually I don't have to know everything. I have to learn to delegate as well and I have to kind of find my place as a leader.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think a lot of people find that really uncomfortable to accept that they don't know everything and that that is OK. And so when you do move into leadership positions for the first time, like you say, that is a common struggle and challenge for people to overcome of accepting and being comfortable with being uncomfortable. And you're always in this sort of state of feeling uncomfortable because, yeah, you don't know the answers, but getting comfortable with that makes it so much easier yeah, definitely, and learning to grow a team that do have the answers.
Speaker 1:It's so important a diverse team that has all the answers um working in tech obviously super fast paced and um really good fun that it that it is constantly changing um, but it's constantly evolving, so how do you stay adaptable and continue upskilling in such a fast-paced industry?
Speaker 2:Yeah, honestly, I think the biggest thing is mindset, because things are constantly evolving and, as we've just discussed, you have to be comfortable with the fact that you'll never know everything, and that is okay. So, instead of seeing that as overwhelming, see it as an opportunity. And the people who tend to thrive in these environments aren't necessarily the ones who know the most, but they're the ones who are most willing to learn and adapt and grow um. So for me, that means actively staying engaged with what's happening in the industry. Um, I'm perhaps obsessively um consuming industry news and insights from thought leaders um all the time, but I don't just passively consume, I do make an effort to be part of that conversation. So, whether that's engaging in communities or attending events or putting out my own ideas into the space, I think that that's where you know knowledge being shared is key to stay and adaptable. But also one of the best ways to learn is, of course, by doing so.
Speaker 2:If there's a new tool that you'd want to understand or a new trend, it's all well and good reading about it, but actually um try to experiment with it firsthand. So, whether that's working with someone who might be able to kind of get you onto a project or um, even if you're not directly using it, getting familiar with it gives you a huge advantage. Um. And then I think, finally, don't underestimate the power of networking. So this won't be new advice to most people, but one of the best ways to stay ahead is by talking to people in different roles in different industries.
Speaker 2:The industry doesn't evolve in a vacuum. So much of what drives that innovation comes from cross-industry insights. So, connecting with people inside and outside of the industry, understanding how they approach problem solving, um, having those sorts of conversations can open up entirely new ways of thinking and help the trends before um they, they evolve. So I think the reality is the industry moves fast, but if you stay curious and surround yourself with people who challenge you and keep experimenting, then you'll never fall behind yes, definitely, and even making time.
Speaker 1:You're so right to get out and network and that does challenge you to also to network anyway. But those people can inspire you to try new things and think differently and it's so easy to get bogged down in your day-to-day and not make time for that. Um. And even networking internally sometimes is a really good place to start and just networking with other teams in your company. We almost forget to do that sometimes and don't actually know who else is in the company.
Speaker 1:And I went for a company where we did, uh like coffee meets and it would kind of randomly select people. We'd just have, you know, 15 minute chat and without that I wouldn't have known anybody else in the company. Let alone the idea of also thinking I need to network externally and that for some people can be incredibly frightening as well to think, oh gosh, I've got to go to an event or um, even like she Can Go's community. We encourage everybody to come in, introduce yourselves, um and just connect with other people, because sometimes people can have the answers to things that you're looking to do and where you're going, where you want to go next. Um, I absolutely agree with with the networking, uh side of things yeah, I think people find networking really daunting.
Speaker 2:But actually one way I like to think of it is just they're just work friends, they're just friends in a professional setting.
Speaker 1:I love that work.
Speaker 2:Friends like that um, it takes that kind of pressure away of having to be overly formal and, you know, quite inauthentic.
Speaker 2:But actually, yeah, they're just, they're just work friends, industry friends, and you're so right that we need to think about it externally and internally. And that becomes really important when thinking about, um, some of the things we've spoken about around making transitions within the organization. If people don't know who you are or know much about you, or even know that that's something that you want to do, um, then they can't necessarily help you. But as soon as you start speaking to people and maybe start voicing, um, some of your sort of ambitions that you want to do, then they can't necessarily help you. But as soon as you start speaking to people and maybe start voicing some of your sort of ambitions that you might want to work on particular projects, it's really surprising how much people will really help you get there. Most people really want to help other people and are more than willing to help you make a transition or to help facilitate that. So, yeah, definitely don't underestimate the water cooler or the coffee machine chats. Those five minutes here and there throughout the day can really make the difference.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. Yeah, those water cooler moments just really important. And you're right, people do want to help and they do want you to reach out and to have that connection. But I think it can be incredibly daunting for some people and there are just so many different ways to network nowadays. It doesn't have to be a formal. You go to an event and you hand out business cards and you know and what it, what it used to be, um, but even just you know, connecting with somebody on LinkedIn and pinging somebody a note, um, even even in those ways can really make a difference to what you want to do next and where you want to go.
Speaker 1:We always ask everybody on here as well. Just a quick advice what advice would you give your younger self? You know you're somebody that didn't know you wanted to go into tech and then you found your way into the world of tech. Is there anything you would say to your younger self about you know, finding your way into the industry or anything about the way that your views have kind of changed on what it's like going into the world of work?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think, um, probably my biggest advice is to not wait for permission, so to believe in yourself and back yourself so you don't need to tick every box on a job description. And, as we've spoken about, there's often this need that women have to feel like they need to tick everything 100%. But actually most women have that belief inside and they know actually I would be really good at that job, I'd really excel in that environment. So believe in yourself and back yourself and have that confidence to go after it, because what's the worst that can happen? You know someone can say no, but I think ultimately, once people do know that that's what you want to do, they will find ways to help you achieve that. So I think, don't wait for permission. Um, believe in yourself and lean into that and the right opportunities will follow.
Speaker 1:yes, definitely, because it is really hard sometimes to believe in yourself. When you've got that inner voice. It's kind of like should I do? I have enough of those skills and we all have and it's something we spoke about on on this podcast a lot that imposter syndrome that kicks in and then you're kind of like, actually maybe I shouldn't have put myself forward for that. Or the realization, I think as you go through your career is that everybody is feeling the same way and that you might be in a meeting and other people are coming across more confident, or you know, you might think that everybody knows what they're doing, but you kind of start to catch on. But perhaps everybody is. They have those days as well where internally they're thinking I'm going to get found out.
Speaker 2:You have those moments.
Speaker 1:Somebody's going to know I shouldn't, I shouldn't be here. But we all have that feeling. I think once you realise that, you settle into it a little bit and you can then deal with those days when they come around and just be kinder to yourself when you do hear that voice yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:I think things really changed for me when I realized that we all feel that way. Like you say, I don't think that ever gets to a point in your career where you maybe feel like you do know everything or that you're 100 qualified and if you are, you're probably in the wrong room because you're not defending yourself enough and you're not growing enough. Um, so I think, yeah, when I realised that actually we're all figuring it out together and even progressing into another position. It's just new levels, new devils, it's just a new thing to overcome and to learn. But, yeah, sort of being uncomfortable sorry, sorry being comfortable with feeling uncomfortable uncomfortable in that respect really helps yeah, definitely and that and unfortunately that's something that comes with being in work for a while it
Speaker 2:kind of suddenly dawns on you a few years in and you think gosh, I wish I'd known that, yeah, oh yeah, would have made for coming into into the, into the workplace, a hell of a lot easier, for sure, definitely um, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Um, hannah, it's been an absolute pleasure to to have you on here today. I could keep picking your brains um on on this uh for another hour if we had it, but we are unfortunately already out of time. So, thank you so much. No, thank you. And for everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
