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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
A conversation with Farnaz Azmoodeh, CTO, Linktree
Join us for an insightful conversation with Farnaz Azmoodeh, Chief Technology Officer at Linktree, as we dive into the world of tech innovation and leadership.
Discover the challenges and triumphs of steering one of the internet's most dynamic platforms, Linktree, and gain exclusive insights into the future of digital connection. Whether you're a tech enthusiast or a budding entrepreneur, this episode promises to inspire and educate.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Kayleigh Bateman, the Managing Director Community and Partnerships at SheCanCode, and today we are having a conversation with Farnes Azmude, cto of Linktree. She's going to let us dive into her impressive career, along with the challenges and triumphs of steering one of the internet's most dynamic platforms Linktree. Welcome, farnes. Thank you so much for joining us on Spilling the Tea.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm so excited to be here. I can't wait to dive in with you.
Speaker 1:It's an absolute pleasure to have you here. I know you are super busy, so thank you so much for making time for us to come and have a chat on Spilling the Tea and to share a little bit with our community. So can we kick off with a bit of background about you please? A little bit about your career path and what led you to become the CTO of Linktrade.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually like to say that I have a pretty boring career path, meaning you know it's a pretty like. I went to college to do computer science. Then I went to grad school to continue on that, you know, in the same field, got a job at a company. You might've heard of Google really starting, you know, from an entry level job, really building the foundations, Cause like you go to school and you think you're getting a lot out of it but honestly it's it's not until you start going to work production. You know it's not until you start going to work production, you know production code at a major company where you learn truly learn what you were supposed to learn in school. It actually sinks in. So I spent 10 years at Google in the advertising organization doing everything from a lot of ML work, because that's what I was working on at grad school and it was a really nice alignment with my kind of first role. And, by the way, now when I think about the state-of-the-art ML work that we were doing back then, it's like child's play compared to what's achievable right now. Then did a lot of heavy infrastructure work at Google, which I think of as this really pivoting point in my career in terms of really teaching me what it's like to build really high throughput, highly, highly reliable, extremely efficient code in an environment where you carve out a few milliseconds in your ad serving system and that translates to millions of dollars because ads are serving faster. It's kind of a fascinating space.
Speaker 2:And after that I joined Snap, or Snapchat as we know the product, and at the time Snapchat was this much, much smaller company and they were starting to think about monetization and it was a really nice alignment of OK, like hey, for now it's like you're leaving your comfort zone of Google that you've been at for about 10 years, going to this new company much, much smaller, faster, moving but by joining the ads team that they were just like building up and I was supposed to kind of start that initiative. It was this really nice alignment. I was like, okay, I'm getting out of my comfort zone, but I can continue relying on a lot of domain expertise that I've built in a previous role. So that was a really nice transition, did that for a couple of years until Snapchat was also going through this really interesting phase in their growth where they had kind of saturated the market in, you know, the parts of the world where you have higher end devices fancier iPhones and you know higher end Samsung devices, whatever they might be on reliable internet and then they couldn't grow anywhere else, because if you're running your app on a lower-end device on unreliable internet it's simply not going to work. And that was when I kind of stepped out to start our platform initiatives at Snap, which I want to tie that to the infrastructure work that I was doing at Google, because I think really the foundations that what I had learned during that time really came in handy when this transition happened, because a lot of the concepts were really transferable Did that for another five years.
Speaker 2:Inside of Snapchat Grew the team to be a very, very large team. I started running not just platform teams but also a bunch of product teams, including our growth initiatives, and at some point I reached this point where I was like you know what I have, this yearning to go back to a company at the size that Snapchat was when I first joined it. And that was when I came across Linktree and I was fascinated by their growth, by their story, by their mission. Honestly, it's something that if you can't get behind the mission statement like how are you going to get yourself out of bed every morning. And here I am. I've been here for two years, which, by the way, time flies. It feels like I joined yesterday, but it's been really fun.
Speaker 1:I love that, yeah, going back to a smaller company, and I love that being part of the journey, that you can really see that that company has grown and that you've been a part of that and then you kind of get to a point where you're ready to move on and try something new. I love that. Out of curiosity, what was your background originally? You took quite a traditional route into tech. Was there someone that inspired you to do that? Was it home life, school life? What was it? Were you just that child that loved tech?
Speaker 2:I did love tech, but I wouldn't refer to it as like computers and like computer technology. To begin with, I always loved, like doing my math homeworks and physics were my thing, like I loved it from the beginning. I was really into video games as a kid but I like to joke about it saying I was into video games and I liked my like I had an airplane that would kind of fly. It was really high end for its time. I loved them. But I also loved my Barbies. Like I don't think like this image of like if you're a tomboy, you're a tomboy and you don't like some of the other stuff.
Speaker 2:Like I like to challenge that I had both. But then really my my fascination with computers. It started when I was in junior high and I was so lucky to have an older cousin who was really into computers and, like you know, at the time it was so primitive but I really liked it. It felt like playing, and so that got me to take a course in junior high, loved it Somehow, didn't continue it throughout high school. Course engineer high loved it, somehow didn't continue it throughout high school.
Speaker 2:And when I was trying to kind of decide what to do in college I knew it had to be engineering, because I always had that fascination with technology and my parents were engineers, mechanical, somewhat different, but you're surrounded in that environment. I think that was helpful. But towards when I was making that call, I think that was helpful. But towards when I was making that call, I was trying to decide between electrical engineering, mechanical engineering versus computer and software. And I don't know, it was like a bit of luck, a little bit of push from parents, and I ended up doing computer science and I am so grateful I did that because really, like, so much of the advancement in technology is now coming from this field, so I feel extremely lucky to be here.
Speaker 1:There are so many people. I've never bumped into someone in tech who said I'm so disappointed that I did that. Whatever way you come into tech, whether it's a traditional route or you fall into tech no one has ever said that to me and once you're in, as well, you can go wherever you wish. At that point you can move around lots of different roles, lots of different companies, so it's just finding your way in. Whatever way you find your way in, no one has ever said they regret it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love what you said, in that you, once you do technology, it's like you have this amazing tool in your toolbox and, you know, if you're fascinated by health care and inefficiencies of our health care system, you can go apply it into that space. If you're fascinated by I don't know e-commerce, you can go apply it to that space. So like it's such an empowering tool to have in your toolbox that, yeah, I couldn't. I couldn't agree more with you.
Speaker 1:Yes, and, and you yourself, you've moved around different companies and it's and you're one of those people, as we said, you like to go through a journey of a company and to be part of that. So what about Linktree? Linktree has grown into a widely used platform, but what have been some of the biggest technical challenges in scaling the company and how have you tackled them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Linktree's story is really fascinating and maybe I'll get into that to kind of contextualize my response. The story of Linktree, like this, is not like two founders coming together and decide like having an idea and bringing it to life. Our founders they were promoting music festivals and concerts and events and they were facing this problem where every time there was a new festival they had to go buy a domain, register it, build a website and then bring it back down. And obviously that's super laborious, time consuming, wasteful. And so Linktree came out of that problem that they were facing to solve their own internal problem. And they weren't engineers. They went and hired kind of an agency to build the initial version for them, and for a long time that's what they were doing. And slowly they were like, well, maybe this is useful to other people. And slowly they were like well, maybe this is useful to other people, let's open it up. And so they bootstrapped it that way, working with different agencies for a long time, not having kind of a dedicated engineering team inside the company, until they were like, wait a minute, like we're making like millions of dollars out of this thing that we accidentally built, let's go raise money, let's go, you know, go through the typical processes that we're making like millions of dollars out of this thing that we accidentally built. Let's go raise money. Let's go, you know, go through the typical processes that we're familiar with in tech.
Speaker 2:But I think because of that one, the company has existed for and the technology stack has existed for a much longer amount of time than we typically see with a company at this scale perhaps in tech, and they haven't had that dedicated engineering support in the very beginning, and what that means is that perhaps you will see one more tech debt than you're normally used to because of the way the technology stack had grown and because there hasn't been this rigorous process along the way. Because, by the way, the other thing that I like to say is, like tech debt is part of software engineering process. Like if you're writing code, you have tech debt, but there is this like really kind of nice process around. Okay, I'm having tech debt, I'm going to go pay it down because I was building for this digital company and now it doesn't apply anymore. I'm going to fix some of the problems, make it more reliable, more resilient, more scalable for the next stage. However, if you don't do those step function improvements. You end up at a point where you're like, oh, like now I got to go pay down the tech bit a lot more than I would have had to if I was making these smaller changes along the way, and so I feel we're kind of dealing with that a lot more.
Speaker 2:Also, if you think about the scale of Linktree Linktree, like you know, we have 60 something million and I say 60 something because I think the last number we publicly shared was 60 million profiles, but obviously it's been growing since. So we have 60 million profiles out there in the wild. We have over 2 billion visitors monthly. That's massive. Last time we checked it was larger than the number of visitors that Twitter gets. So you know, when you have that massive of a scale, you know when you have that massive of a scale, it's really hard to ensure that your product is really doing something for every single user. Therefore, you're going to have this problem massive growth in the number of features you offer, in the number of functionalities you offer, and so that problem of going down and solving some of the underlying problems becomes much, much harder. And that's exactly what we're dealing with at Linktree right now and have been dealing with the last two years. I'll give you a few examples of what this has meant for us.
Speaker 2:One I feel every engineer is going to hear this and be like, yep, I've seen that problem before. Linktree's code base was a monolith for a very long time and obviously when you have a monolith it has its benefits you get to develop faster, you got to be able to ship code more easily, more quickly but it has its downsides. You are going to have reliability challenges, you are going to have engineers starting to kind of step on each other's shoes because you don't have clear separation of services. And so we switched over and started going through this transition to service-oriented architecture, transition to service-oriented architecture. Having said that, the moment you go there, the sweet spot really comes down to figuring out all right, like, how many services do I really need? What are the boundaries between my services?
Speaker 2:And a common mistake that I see I've seen it in my previous job, I see it now at Linktree is that you end up with too many services because it's so much easier to just be like, oh, I with too many services because it's so much easier to just be like, oh, I'm doing this thing, it's so much easier to spin it up as a new service. What that means is that all of a sudden, you have a ton of services to maintain, like at this point at Linktree, we have more services than we have engineers, so a really tricky situation. Ensuring that your dependencies are up to date is going to be hard. Ensuring that your dependencies are up to date is going to be hard. Ensuring that testing is going to be easy can be hard, depending on your environment. So now we're in this situation where we're like okay, like service-oriented architecture has its benefits, but how can we reconcile what we have so that things are more manageable? That's one of the bigger things that we're dealing with right now.
Speaker 1:Which can be quite difficult. If you've been inside that for at least a couple of years, it can be quite difficult to almost look from an outsider perspective as well and think do we really need all of that? How can we work on this? So that must be quite challenging.
Speaker 2:I love what you said because I think you're right. Every time we go to a new environment with a new pair of eyes, it's so easy to see the problems. You spot them right away. You're an outsider and, by the way, you don't have that like. You don't associate yourself with what you see, and it's so much easier to criticize it and be very, very objective, whereas when you've been in the system for a long time one, that separation becomes hard. Like we all know, it's harder to criticize ourselves than somebody else. It's easy to point it out. And, two, you get used to it, like you're not coming at things with those fresh pair of eyes anymore. So something that I have to do constantly is to kind of be like force, to separate myself to be able to see those problems and push to address them. I really love that you brought it up.
Speaker 1:I told you, it is a challenge when you've been inside a company. We we do it here and we we almost ask um, sometimes we ask the opinion of our community a lot as well, because when you're inside our community so much, we kind of think, are people going to interpret that properly? You do get very in your day to day and you just assume that everybody else is thinking what you're thinking, which isn't always the case. And you've been quite through a journey so far and lots of challenges already at Linktree. But what's next for Linktree from a technology perspective and are there any exciting innovations or trends that you're particularly excited about?
Speaker 2:Sure, I think nobody's going to be surprised by this, but obviously we're all, like everybody in technology, is super excited about AI and what it's going to unleash. And you know, sometimes I hear from people that, like you know, ai is too hyped up, and I personally think that it's probably too hyped up if you think about the next two years, but it's not remotely hyped up enough if you think about the next 10 years. So, really, like, I think I think it's good to kind of have that in mind. And when I think about, when I think about AI, there's two things that I get really excited about. One is how are we going to apply AI to our product offering? And two, how are we going to apply AI to improve our productivity, and not just? You know, I think almost every company has leaned into AI when it gets to say customer support support, because AI does a fabulous job already with customer support, but not so much with, let's say, coding, code reviews, things of that nature, because AI is just starting to catch up. So I'll tell you a little bit about the latter, in terms of how we're applying AI to our technology stack, a little bit.
Speaker 2:I think it's funny I was just reminded of this interview that Brian Chelsky of Airbnb did a little while ago and a few other CEOs, and they were saying that they're not seeing a meaningful impact in engineering productivity as a result of AI, and I actually agree with them. I think it's not massively significant yet because it's not there yet. But the reason we're leaning into AI super heavily at Linktree is that one. We believe that there's this thing about human psychology, like it takes a long time to start leaning in and using new tools that you know you haven't seen, like humans have not seen ever before, and it's funny because you would expect engineers to be the ones who want to lean into new technology much more aggressively. But that's not what we see, and I've talked to enough folks colleagues, co-workers outside of Linktree to know that that's true.
Speaker 2:There is this inertia associated with starting to use something new and it's almost like leaning into AI for coding. It's almost like the challenges you face when you I don't know first become a manager and you have to delegate, because there's always that temptation that if I do it myself, I can do it better. I have to give it a ton of context. Why would I waste that myself, I can do it better. I have to give it a ton of context. Why would I waste that time? I can go do it myself, and if you do that, you're never going to scale right. So what we're doing is really ensuring that we're leaning in.
Speaker 2:Now. We're helping people learn how to interact with AI. We're using Cursor inside our company. We're using Devon if you're familiar with any one of these kind of AI engineering productivity tools. Even though they're not perfect, they are making a difference in terms of, one, improving our velocity by a bit and, two, helping teach our engineering team what it's like to lean into AI. And the idea is, as AI gets better and they had a major release I think the Devon AI company had a major release yesterday and I'm excited to go play with. As technology catches up, you will be ready, as an organization, to just lean into it and take advantage of it, as opposed to just being like, okay, now we're going to get started and now we have to deal with the challenges that come with humans like humans, with their own sophisticated psychology and incentives and whatnot to start leaning into the tech and taking advantage of it. So that's something that we're doing pretty aggressively.
Speaker 1:Change, resistance and everything that comes along with new things, having to introduce them to your team team and that being overwhelmed as well At tech shows.
Speaker 1:I love the fact that you mentioned when you think about it in the next 10 years. That's very different to the next few years or what's happening even now, because at tech shows you have the keynote and that's very future. And then you come out of the keynote and you start talking to CIOs and CTOs on the show floor and you're like, are you doing that? And they go no, we're nowhere near that, you know, and they're not even thinking about that. That's not in their day to day. So you can get quite overwhelmed and you know you sit in those keynotes at big tech conferences and you can sit there and think you know that actually is a lot for our company to take on and, like we were saying that you have to implement that and the team has to go along with those changes as well and embrace them as you go. So you're right trying to do that now, so you're almost ready, for it is wise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. And then, of course, leaning into AI for our product. Like, there's a lot that are, as we call them, linkers, people who spin up at Linktree. There's so much that they're trying to do, whether they're creators or small businesses. They're on Linktree to present themselves, to monetize their content or their small business. They're there to build a fan base, and how can we lean into ai to make that laborious task easier is something that is super top of mind for us. Um, but I honestly think, just like when, um, the, the smartphones came out, uh, some of the apps in the early days, when you think think about it like those apps were nowhere, like they were nowhere near what we're doing with smartphones now. Many of them were even like spammy, a solution in search of a problem, and I have no doubt that that's where we are with AI and, as time goes, we'll unleash the power in our product in ways that our brains just can't fathom right now.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and that's a lot to navigate as a leader as well, bringing all of that in and navigating change amongst your team. So, as a tech leader, how do you foster a culture of innovation and collaboration within your teams?
Speaker 2:Yeah, such a good question. I think, as a leader, there's a couple of things that I think we have to do to make sure that we create and foster that culture of innovation and we encourage it. And the way I do it is one by heavy communication so that people hear what we value, so that people hear that it's not about how hard you work, but it's really about how smart you work and the impact you drive. And if that's your focus, as opposed to the hardship, you will lean into AI. You will try to figure out how can you unlock the value that you're trying to unlock as fast as possible.
Speaker 2:And repeating that, communicating that regularly, is super top of mind for me. I used to have my leader who was running engineering at Snapchat. He used to say this thing that I really loved. He said as a leader, especially a leader of a larger organization, you have to repeat everything so many times that by the time you're sick of it because you've been hearing yourself repeat it every day by the time you're sick of it. Everybody has heard about it Before it, you've missed the mark, and so you know. It's so true, and so that's top of mind for me.
Speaker 2:And then two, I think, creating the space for it, because sometimes, when you're in that day to day of I just need to ship, I have a deadline, it's hard to kind of take a step back and just think about all right, if I was to do this more smartly, how would it be? So we've created a few kind of solutions to empower that. We have hackathons regularly, and these are not hackathons where you, you know, different companies have different kind of approaches to hackathons. What we do at Linktree is that we're doing hackathons to build solutions that we actually need. We are going to ship them to production, but they just don't go through the same process. You have freedom to decide who you're going to work with. You know there's more flexibility associated with it, but what we've learned is that when we do that, people lean in at. People lean in to using tools that they never used before. People like they surprise you in the most ways possible.
Speaker 1:I love the surprise we hold hackathons at SheCanCode, and that is the best word for it when you uh present at the end, we never know what our teams are going to present and it creates an environment where you can just create for the day. We give them a theme. You don't have to be highly technical, but come along, try something, work with a team that you might not normally work with as well and tools that you might not be familiar with, but see how you go and see what you create, and it's always a surprise for us what they came up, come up with at the end. Um, yeah, always a surprise for us what they come up with at the end. Yeah, definitely a surprise, awesome.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad that the experience is kind of repeatable in every company, which tells you something again about the human experience, mental state, really. The only other thing that I want to touch on here is that I want to tie it back to diversity. We talk about diversity in technology quite a bit, but I think we don't deeply kind of apply it to every dimension of diversity. I think there are people who are great at operations but not so good at being creative about what pixels am I putting on the screen to help guide the user in this flow? There are other types of engineers on my team who are wonderful and just building beautiful UIs and moving really fast and shipping code. But if you were to ask them to do that kind of operational work that the first group does, if you were to ask them to do that kind of operational work that the first group does, I think they'll probably start being very upset and then quit.
Speaker 2:So really thinking about diversity in these other dimensions and creating the space for people to not just focus on what they're not as strong as, but really double down on what they're strong at and what they get joy from, really double down on what they're strong at and what they get joy from, and creating that separation has sometimes really helped us unleash people who are really good at kind of being at the front and being creative building the future, and then folks who are really happy being in supporting roles. I think that separation always helps and of course, we have flexibility. People are dynamic. They might want to change their mode of operation. We allow that, we support it, but creating that separation in that space has proven to be super handy.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that and it's also letting your team know that everybody doesn't have to know absolutely everything. You are focused on your thing, you're good and find what you're good at and be good at that, because that's why we employed you. You know, try new things, but that's that's what you're here for and I wanted to ask you a little bit about that. Actually, as a female leader, because a lot of our community have said, when you become a leader, you're, you immediately think, everybody thinks, thinks I must know everything and I can't, like you said, you struggle to delegate. You must know everything because you are in that position and that you don't have a team that has the expertise for you to be able to delegate and for them to do their thing and what they're good at. So, as a female leader in tech, what advice would you have for women aspiring to leadership roles in engineering and technology?
Speaker 2:Such a good question. So what you mentioned around you know, like people expecting you to know everything. I think that we all feel and I think I'm going to refer to it as imposter syndrome to a degree. I think it's a very essential part of human condition.
Speaker 2:We all feel it to some degree, but my hypothesis is that the way we raise girls in our families and in our societies is a little different from boys, in that failures are really looked down at with girls a lot more than boys, and of course it's a, it's a generalization, but I like at least that's my anecdotal observation Um, and so I think, because of that, that fear of failure is really real, uh, much more among female women in technology versus men.
Speaker 2:Um, and so if, if I was to have one advice, it's just to remember that, get comfortable with it and just remind yourself how lucky we are and I truly, truly mean it how lucky we are to be in technology. The opportunities are endless and the odds of you succeeding after failure is extremely high, whereas in some other roles, if you're a physician and you make a mistake, your career might be over just like that. So I think, by reminding ourselves of that, reminding ourselves how real imposter syndrome is, how everybody struggles with it, including myself, where every day I'm waiting to be discovered as a fraud I'm exaggerating, but there's some truth to it by reminding ourselves of that, I think we can get, hopefully, more comfortable with failure, because, yeah, that's how you build confidence and you put a foot in front of the other and make slow progress. But you know that slow progress 1% every month, it will get you somewhere beautiful.
Speaker 1:Yes, and knowing that other people are thinking exactly the same as you, other people thinking this is the day I'm going to get found out every day. Um linktree plays a major role in online identity and personal branding. How do you see the future of digital identity evolving in the coming years?
Speaker 2:That is a wonderful, wonderful question. I think, as you might imagine, like if you go online and search for your name, my name, it's really hard to sift through the results and think like, is this the right person, or is there some name similarity, is there some? Like? It's really hard to kind of tie that together. And so, in the shallowest level, I think of what Linktree is doing for creators, small businesses and consumers, just like regular consumers like you and I. It's very parallel to what LinkedIn has done for our kind of career identity.
Speaker 2:I'm going to call it Like right now, yes, I can probably find you on GitHub and you can find me on GitHub, but where we go, when we meet someone in our professional lives, it's LinkedIn. It's like, okay, there's the like. This is what that person themselves have put together to tell me who they are, what schools they've been to, which projects they've worked on. It's the reliable source of that truth. And that's literally what Linktree does.
Speaker 2:We allow you to kind of consolidate and unify who you are in the online hemisphere and kind of present it in this centralized manner. But the impact of that down the road, I honestly think actually the need for products like Linktree in this world of AI and the world where there's going to be a ton of content not generated by humans is going to become more and more important, so that you can come in, put your own human touch and your personal touch on. Here's me, here's my profile and everything that I am. It includes my LinkedIn, but also my Instagram handle for those who know me socially. My list of like these are the books I read and I get pleasure from my, you know, like anything and everything, but in a consolidated way. So I'm excited to see how we can play that role and empower our users much more meaningfully actually in the years to come, because of the way the world is evolving.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that and tech moves so fast as well, and how much that is going to evolve. But you're right, AI is one of those topics at the moment where people are a little bit nervous but excited at the same time, and I don't think that human element will ever disappear. So you're right. Things like that where you can say this is me, this is the real me as well, and, to add everything on there, I don't think that is going to go away at all with AI.
Speaker 2:It's not Absolutely, and, to be honest, I'll take it a step further and I'd say that the premium that we put on human content, like content that's actually generated by a living, breathing person, is only going to go up as a result.
Speaker 1:Yes, I can even see that in messages now. So when you see messages and content and you know it's been generated by ai, it's almost as if your brain dismisses it. You need that. It's okay if ai has helped you with something and it's got the bare bones of something, and then you give it that human touch. But we've almost already noticed when content is being generated in its full sense, in its full form from AI and just copied and pasted, and then we go, oh, it's another one. Nobody's put their heart and soul into it. There's going to be a real mix between the two, because I personally, when I read something, I just shut off and I think, well, a human didn't write that at this point.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I love what you're saying and that's actually behind an initiative that we rolled out mid last year. I want to say what we call social commerce. It's around this behavior that we're all seeing more and more online. Where you know, you and I, we used to probably go to the mall and look at, you know, different brands, their displays and decide what to buy, and that trend is shifting.
Speaker 2:We know that, obviously, online shopping is a big part of our day to day now, but also a very specific type of online shopping following creators who we adore because they are promoting, I don't know, health and wellness products that really resonate, or a fashionista who's pushing whatever the latest fashion. It is that they are kind of wearing and enjoying themselves, and that touch of like human, like a human that we love and respect, on these products is really what's driving the purchase, um, purchases that we see, we see online, and so we've rolled out a solution that empowers our linkers to do this much more effectively, much more efficiently, uh, than what's been available before. So I, I, I absolutely hear you that, um, again, the premium that we're putting on anything that's been generated by a human who's put their heart and soul into it is only going to go up.
Speaker 1:Definitely. Yes. I couldn't agree more, and for now we are already out of time. I could keep talking to you for several more hours on this topic. I would absolutely love to pick your brains again at some point in the future. So thank you so much for coming on here and finding the time to come and chat and share your journey with our community. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I've had a lot of fun talking to you.
Speaker 1:Thank you and for everybody listening, as always. Thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
