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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Beyond the code - Non-tech roles in tech
Think tech is all about coding? Think again! In this episode, we sit down with Beth Innes, Vendor Manager – Platform and Operations at Dunelm, to explore the vital ‘non-tech’ roles that keep the tech world running. With 15 years of experience in IT—without ever being in a strictly technical role—Beth shares her journey of ‘falling into tech,’ navigating the often-intimidating world of tech jargon, and the underrated power of soft skills.
We’ll dive into the art of contract, supplier, and relationship management in tech, why communication and problem-solving are just as important as coding, and how you don’t need to be a developer to thrive in the industry. If you’ve ever wondered how to carve out a space in tech without being a programmer, this episode is for you!
Tune in for an insightful and down-to-earth chat about the diverse opportunities in the tech industry.
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Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the Managing Director Community and Partnerships at she Can Code, and today we are discussing, Beyond the Code, Non-Tech Roles in Tech. I've got the wonderful Beth Innes, Vendor Manager with InTech at Dunhill, with me today and we're going to explore the vital non-tech roles that keep the tech world running. Welcome, Beth. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:Hello, thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1:It is a pleasure to have you on. This is actually a question that we get asked quite a lot in our community about non-tech roles, so I'm pleased that you're here to have a chat with us today. Can we kick off with a bit of background about you, please, just to set the scene.
Speaker 2:Yes, of course. So I, as you mentioned, I'm currently the vendor manager for tech at Dunelm. I've actually been working in IT environments, it companies, for probably about 15 years in various roles. This is my first position within retail, so I've been doing the job for about 18 months now, so it's been a bit of a learning curve in that respect, mainly working beforehand in actual IT companies, in value-added resellers, either customer-facing or internally facing as a vendor manager. So yeah, it's been a big portion of my life working in tech, miraculously not having any tech qualifications or skills, quite frankly, uh, apart from the basics, um, but uh, but yeah. So I'm an example of of the possible with without those skills in in an IT environment.
Speaker 1:I love that, though we, we absolutely love to hear those stories in our community that you don't have to be techie, you don't have to take a computer science degree to come in and you don't have to have been that child that you know took apart things in their house to find out how they worked, and then you wanted to go into tech and that you can fall into tech at any time in your life.
Speaker 1:What were you like when you were younger? What did you want to do and, kind of you know, then found your way into tech.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think, probably like a lot of people, I went through school. I did it. You know, I quite enjoyed learning at school but didn't have any particular career path that I wanted to follow. It was very much picking the subjects, doing what you like in the moment. So, um, after GCSEs I went down the the sports route. I studied sports science. I was very sporty at the time I'm not now um, but but then very quickly I realized this wasn't what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2:So, um, found myself in in the position of just, you know, taking jobs, going through the paper like you did in the olden days, finding an admin job, applying for it, getting it and, um, and, and it was just a source for money to be able to, you know, live my life. Whilst I was, I was living at home. When I was young, I had, um, I had my son. When I was quite young I was about I think I was 23 when my son was born and I was still in that position where I had a job, but I didn't have a career, um, so when he was born, I went back. Quite soon after he was born, about five months after he was born, I was just looking for a job that was going to contribute to the outgoings of our of our household. Looking for a career, just something that was flexible, paid enough money that I could tolerate, that I didn't hate. And that's where I found myself.
Speaker 2:I wasn't particularly liking the industry I was in, so I contacted a recruiter locally who put me forward for an interview at a reseller a value-added reseller in Watford, and they said it's an IT company. You know, looking at your skills, you'd be great for this role as a support coordinator. Okay, yeah, great, fine, it was a couple of miles from my house so I could walk there. I could. You know, there was the flexibility that's needed for someone who's got young children. I went for the interview and at the time my understanding of IT was desktops, email, internet, word processor. You know the minimum education we had in the 90s with IT at school. I had no concept of networking routing, switching, of networking routing switching. They told me that the role was predominantly quoting for and managing Cisco support and licensing contracts. I'd never heard of Cisco, I didn't know what this was, I couldn't even imagine how communications and information technology worked, but it ticked all the boxes. So I was like, yeah, fine, I'll start there and I stayed in a variation of that role for quite a long time, for probably about seven or eight years, because all I was concerned about was paying the bills, maybe paying for a cheap holiday with my family when my son started school.
Speaker 2:I could start a little bit later so I could do the school drop off. I could work from home occasionally in the summer holidays if I was struggling with childcare. That's all I cared about. But over time, I began to realise that I was in a job that I really wasn't suited for. I began to realize that I was in a job that I really wasn't suited for, that the skill set that was required wasn't my skill set. I felt that I could be doing more and I became really, really frustrated with I. Probably wasn't a very pleasant person to be around at home or at work because I was, you know, coming in every day doing the job. I wasn't really getting anything from it. So, therefore, I wasn't giving anything back to, you know, to my employer at the time, and that went on for quite a while until I was offered the opportunity to, uh, to start a, a talent development program, an internal program that the company were putting on. Um, I didn't quite understand it. I was like, well, why are you asking me to do this? But um, it was a. I think it was a year-long course that went through raising your profile, understanding your skill sets. There were a lot of the kind of psychometric testing that you do uh, personality and communication styles, these sorts of things but uh, there was a, you know, a, um, a penny drop moment when, during that course, I realized that and it sounds silly now, but I realized that I had been just waiting for someone to recognize something in me and do all the hard work you know to find me a career, to put me in a job that I enjoyed and that I was good at, and that was never going to happen. These sorts of courses were there to help people identify those things in themselves and it really worked for me.
Speaker 2:I am very soon after that course, I still stayed at the same company, but I moved around, I tried different roles, I did sabbaticals in different areas and then eventually got a promotion into a position that was much more suited to the, the, the areas that I was strongest in and the things I liked the most. Um, I still thought it was time to move on. I think, after 12 years in one one position in one company, it was time to to try somewhere else and I I then what about three years ago took, took the leap and left and went to another similar organization, but in a completely different role, being the new me, not the person that people had maybe seen 10 years ago. And it was revolutionary really to to be able to list things I like doing and create and forge a career. That includes don't get me wrong, it's not everything.
Speaker 2:There are still parts of job, like everyone, that I would rather not do or I don't feel very comfortable doing, but in the most part, I finally found myself in a role that suits my strengths and I feel that I'm still learning from.
Speaker 2:But, more importantly, I'm contributing something and I'm actually adding to the future of a department, as opposed to just being miserable and, you know, begrudgingly doing my work day to day. So, um, so that's how I've I've got to where I am, and it's purely that realization that if you're going to be miserable and frustrated, then by all means do it. But it's, it's nobody else's responsibility for you to create and carve out your, your future, whether it's, you know, at work or or outside of work. So, yeah, it's definitely been a journey, but um, but it's given me an appetite to constantly look at opportunities in internally. Most importantly, you know where can I branch out and learn something new or where can I suggest a new process or try and make changes that are going to help other people in their, in their roles and, being a vendor manager, you're you're in the perfect position to do that yeah, I love that and I love that as well.
Speaker 1:A lot of people say they like yourselves. You, you, you know, you, you fell into tech, but you don't always realize as well what that means. At the time I, I was the same. I fell into tech um, journalism, but I didn't ever imagine myself working on a tech publication. You, you don't when you're studying, but you don't realize at the time the opportunities that are available in tech. For you to suddenly have that moment where you think, actually I could really make a career of this. There are so many opportunities in the tech industry, whereas you might fall in and then you might think, well, I don't have all the qualifications that I need. I really you will have those imposter syndrome moments anyway, but especially in tech, when you start thinking about I'm not techie and I'm having to talk to lots of very technical people, but then suddenly you do have that moment where you think I do work in the tech industry and I could really make something of this, and how am I gonna do? That is kind of turning it around.
Speaker 2:I actually I remember out of, I suppose, sheer desperation of wanting to do something different in in in that company, was I ordered a Routing and Switching for Dummies book because I thought this is what I have to do to move on. I didn't fully grasp or understand what other opportunities were available, and I would see other people, other colleagues, move on and move into really interesting sounding roles or get promotions, and I, just for the life of me, couldn't figure out how they were doing it. I thought, oh, they must know somebody, or they must. I don't. I didn't know what was going on, and it was only when it was pointed out that they're, you know, they're just selling themselves.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, they're putting themselves out there're having conversations, taking some risks and um, and believing in themselves most importantly, and that's what's allowing them to to flourish. Uh, it's important that that is advocated and shared, because for a long time in my career it wasn't clear to me, uh, so that's why I'm very passionate about explaining that to other people that I I don't think I've done anything special to get to where I am, apart from just being accountable and and if you're going to be miserable, if you have a problem, come with a solution and and, try and, and try and solve it, because nobody else is responsible for the kind of success in in your life yes, definitely, and I wanted to ask you a little bit about um, the, the tech and the coding part, because that's something our community asks us a lot about and it can be quite intimidating to come into the tech industry.
Speaker 1:We have lots of ladies come to our hackathons who think you know what? I'm not technically minded and we just love them to come along and just try something new for the day and not feel like they have to know all of that stuff to be in tech. So people, they often associate tech with coding and engineering, but roles like yours are essential. So can you break down what a vendor manager does and why it's so important to the tech industry.
Speaker 2:I can, and when I've been asked this question before. It's quite difficult to condense it into a few sentences, but I have. I've had a go. So, essentially, vendor management is about monitoring and managing the performance and relationships, most importantly, that we have with our vendors and our suppliers within tech. You, you want to become the, the central point that assesses the, the value of the products, services, uh, solutions that we are, we're paying for, making sure that they are aligning with the strategy that's been set out within the department, and then also reporting on and and acting on improvement areas that need to be done. So you're a real conduit between the requirements of the, your colleagues within the tech department and the suppliers them themselves.
Speaker 2:It's a really, really wide remit. So one day I might be dealing with a payment error or dispute with a £1,000 contract. The next day you might be facilitating and coordinating a C-suite peer-to-peer meeting with a multi-billion dollar organization. It. It crosses the, the whole of tech, and you're actually in a really unique position to see how the whole department works, not just the department itself, but how it relates to our finance colleagues and the scrutiny that the department will see on spending requests, how it works with legal, you know, going through all all the contract negotiations and what's important for them. It's that central place that holds that information and supplies it to people when they either need to make decisions or when there's a major incident.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I've been tasked to do since joining Dunelm is creating a framework and a policy, uh, as a guide for people to help people effectively manage relationships themselves, but then also categorize um the vendors and give engagement guides depending on the category, categorizations, those sorts of things. And I think at the heart of it, the main purpose of vendor management is making sure that our organization's best interests are at the center of every conversation that's happening with a third party, and the theory can spread outside of technology. Supplier relationship management isn't unique to technology, but with the complexity of the agreements and the contracts that we have and the sheer volume of them, it's really important to try and have a mature function that that does that.
Speaker 1:So I know that's not a couple of sentences, but hopefully that gives a bit of a um a bit of a an understanding of what we try and do in vendor management yeah, and all of those skills that come with that that are not technical, because that's something that we get asked a lot.
Speaker 1:People think that going into tech obviously you have to be techie to get into tech anyway and you have to keep learning, and obviously there are lots of roles where you have to be very technical, but people forget all of those soft skills that come with it that are just as important, and that having to communicate with different departments and third parties and all of the things that come with a company to make sure that that company can function and that's not always the coders that are sitting there, you know, just doing lines of code all day day which also can be a misconception about working in tech but the importance of that and that you um, if you do fall into tech at a later stage in your life as well, you're actually bringing all of those wonderful soft skills from a completely different industry sometimes into a role like yours where you know somebody from a completely different industry would still be well suited for a job like yours 100 and can just transfer those skills right over, and they don't have to.
Speaker 1:You know, have taken that computer science degree 100.
Speaker 2:Uh, one of the one of the biggest lessons I've had to learn and just because of my character it's been really difficult, but it's it's accepting that you can't know everything about everything what. What you have to be able to do is understand enough to find the right people to have those in-depth conversations and discuss technical requirements, but then also be able to translate those requirements into stories that other people will be able to understand. So if you're putting forward a requirement to finance, for instance, or trying to explain to another area of the business why we can or can't do something, it's a skill to be able to be that bridge between technical and not. One of the important things as well is to, once you've accepted you can't possibly know everything, is to be comfortable with asking questions, because things, even over the last five years or so, have become so much more complex. You know, with SaaS solutions, different software and licensing models. When I first started, it was all hardware, physical items in a box and perpetual licenses. They were quite easy concepts to understand, but you now have different consumption models that you have to understand to a degree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you need to lean on colleagues and peers. So, whether they're external or internal stakeholders lean passionate about. There's nothing better than sitting and listening to someone talk with passion. They could be talking about anything you know I don't know chairs, or you know literally anything. If they're talking with passion and real expertise, it's a privilege and it's a joy to listen to them and um, so it's important to have that that go-between as a vendor manager to to decipher that information, translate it into something more palatable, understandable, and then pass it on to those who, um, who aren't involved in tech at all yes, definitely, and you are right, people do love it when you ask them questions and ask them to explain something.
Speaker 1:You're just normally sitting there thinking I don't want to ask that question because it looks like I don't know what I'm doing. Or and I wanted to ask you about tech jargon in that sense, because there's so much jargon within the tech industry that we all just throw out there to confuse each other. But most people are thinking what on earth does that mean? Like how, how does that fit in? And um, it is like a foreign language.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and the one thing I would like.
Speaker 1:How do you navigate that and what advice would you give to others?
Speaker 2:the biggest piece of advice I would have is to ask you know, don't feel embarrassed, uh, in a meeting particularly, uh it's particularly difficult on on remote meetings when you don't want to interrupt people, but I guarantee you there's somebody else in that room or someone that they that person has spoken to before who has asked the exact same question, especially when you're talking about acronyms and um, and also there are different, you know different abbreviations and acronyms for different reasons. So I've tried to Google things before and got the answers completely wrong. I do try to swat up a bit on new businesses or new technologies that I've had no exposure to before, by looking at some internal documents or going on the internet to have a look at a brief description, sometimes using AI, to say can you explain this solution to me? As if I were an eight-year-old. I find that a really useful tool to it's always a lemonade, lemonade stand scenario they give you, but it's a really, really useful way to understand the basics, because that's that's what you need to know, basically, um, and asking those questions and, yeah, leaning on your colleagues asking them if you've, if you've been in a meeting you really just don't understand, it's all gone completely over your head, asking for five minutes with someone to say, look, can you be patient with me and just start from scratch? Explain it to, but then also don't put yourself under pressure that you need to completely understand everything.
Speaker 2:My responsibilities are value add, you know. Making sure that any commercial or contractual discussions are siphoned to the right teams. Making sure that suppliers are engaging in an appropriate way with our colleagues in tech, that suppliers are engaging in an appropriate way with our colleagues in tech. I've even learned to half switch off when they go deep into technical discussions so I don't overwhelm my own mind trying to keep up with it. Things that you don't need to know. No, exactly, and you know it's tricky because, particularly when you start in a new organization, you start a new role. You do want to be engaged and know about everything but there. But there's something quite freeing about understanding your remit and then only becoming involved in the conversations that are relative to what you're trying to do. Trust the experts and then they can trust you to do what you're supposed to do in your role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I completely agree with you.
Speaker 1:And it's something that I think, as you get a bit older as well, you start to realise that all you need to figure out is what you're good at and to be really good at what you do and not having to do the good things that other people do, and that's why you need a full team. Obviously, everybody has their thing that they're good at, but sometimes when you do enter the world of work, it's like trying to find your place is is not front of mind. At the time. You know you're just thinking like I need a job, I need the experience, but then actually trying to find, trying to narrow down what you're good at and and how to show that that's something that that comes with a few more years in work where you know suddenly, suddenly you start thinking this is what I'm good at, I don't have to be technical.
Speaker 1:We do have some ladies who come along to our hackathons who are not technical and they actually just say I just want to hear the jargon that's used, and we actually had a few ladies.
Speaker 1:We love the ladies at Dunham that come to our hackathons and they're absolutely most of the ladies at Dunham that come to our hackathons and they're absolutely most of the ladies at Dunham that come along are absolutely lovely to have and a pleasure to meet every time. But they came along because they're not technical and they said I just want you to hear the, the jargon that's used, so I can communicate more with our techie teams and to understand, like, how those projects work in a in an environment where you're not expected to know everything. And that's a great way to use a hackathon, because you just get to hang out with complete strangers and work on a project for the day and just to familiarize yourself sometimes with that jargon, but to know that it doesn't have to be part of your day job. Everyone else is sitting there having the same thought as well as what on earth does that mean, and it's an ever-evolving language as well.
Speaker 2:There are things that are commonplace now that I'd never heard of 18 months ago, and it's always a fear when you you hear a phrase that everyone seems to understand and and you, you know, I don't want to ask that question because then they'll think I don't know what I'm talking about. One one example is t-shirt sizing. This is a phrase that I've started to hear more, but the first time I heard it I was like I have no idea what you're talking about and it's very literal. You know, it is what it says. It is.
Speaker 2:It's just trying to categorize things in in certain sizes and um, I, um, I'd never heard of it, and and that was one that was like, do I google this? I don't know, but then I just I asked the person who mentioned it, so I just want to confirm that what I am hearing is is correct. But uh, but yeah, tech is renowned for loving to coming up, to love coming up with different phrases, ways of working, job titles over over, like the last few decades. Just everything changes so quickly and it's and that's ramping up as well. So don't don't feel bad or inadequate if you're not understanding things, because, yeah, the likelihood is there are. There are far more people in your organization or in the industry at whole that are in the same position as you.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. What about relationship management, negotiation and communication? Because they are key to your role, and we touched upon the soft skills a little bit already, but what are some of the most valuable soft skills that you've developed and how do they help you to succeed in tech?
Speaker 2:and how do they help you to succeed in tech. So by far the most important skill that I have developed I say developed because we all have it to an extent is communication, is learning how to have the right conversations in the right way, depending on the outcomes that you want. Learning how to frame conversations, depending on whether it's a friendly catch-up or a more difficult negotiation or reprimand that call that you might have with a supplier. It's it's learning to read the people you're talking with. But also something that I've I've learned, um and has actually allowed me to be far more comfortable in in my role now, is showing empathy and using clear but, importantly, really kind language when you're talking to to anyone. No, no, no matter how difficult a conversation, it never needs to be unpleasant.
Speaker 2:Um, I will always speak to anyone in the same way, regardless of their position or the, the sentiment or the meaning of the meeting that we need to have, and I will look out for opportunities to connect with that person. I know that seems very fluffy, but it's a really valuable skill to try and find something that you can relate with that person. It may be the weather you know, it may be a previous conversation that's had, remind, remind yourself of previous conversations. Um, a trick that I use whenever I'm speaking to anyone is I will always go into a conversation under warm conversation because I I I feel that that gives me confidence to be able to be me.
Speaker 2:I don't feel that I need to change my character to to fit the person I'm speaking to, but then it also radiates some positivity into the room, which is contagious, and it's a really effective way of communicating with people that you can control the conversation because you're you're making a statement that this is going to be a good conversation. You know, however, you know however much you've been dreading having that call. You know if it's to do with internal teams or you're going to be. You know offloading a supplier and you're about to tell them it's irrelevant, because it's always. It's always. There's always an opportunity to make a positive conversation, and that's been really valuable within vendor management, because you're having so many different types of conversations with so many different types of people.
Speaker 1:Yes, I agree, and also I think those soft skills a lot of people that I've spoken to in our community if I were just to describe to them those soft skills and everything that you just said about communicating and that relationship management, negotiation, communication a lot of the community members I've spoken to about those things are all parents and they all say they are things that I learned when I became a parent and they all worry. They worried that when they took time out of work that it was going to hinder their career in some way and and actually they were all the soft skills, especially in negotiation, when that they learn when they become parents and then come back into the workforce. Is that something that you found? You had your son quite young um, you said at 23 but they're actually soft skills that you just learn as a parent and then you bring back into the workplace?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think, certainly. I think what it does, uh, being a parent just puts things in perspective. That, you know, is this meeting we've got booked in that you've been really nervous about really as bad as you think it is you know, on the grand in the grand scheme of of everything.
Speaker 2:How, how important is it? Um? And that perspective helps you navigate those those types of conversations. Even even before my son was born, I still stand by the, the most valuable experience I think I ever learned. That is still, uh, providing me with uh confidence. Now his.
Speaker 2:I worked in a local pub from 18 to about 20 or 21 at the weekends, and the you know the customers range from, you know, an old retired gentleman who lived down the road to millionaire businessmen who lived up the hill, tradesmen, young people, old people, men, women, a whole cross section of society.
Speaker 2:You very quickly learn how to, how to speak to anybody you know with an air of authority, because if you're on your own managing a pub, um, you, you're responsible for it and, uh, as as insignificant as that seems and I don't even have that on my cv, you know I haven't bothered to write that. I worked in a pub over 20 years ago, but, um, the um, the significance of that has has never left me and it's purely a soft skill. It's got nothing to do with it, nothing to do with working in a corporate environment, um, but it's, it's been really, really important. And I say to my son so he's, he's 16 now and I'm like, the minute you're 18, you need to get a job in the pub up the road and just learn those skills. And it allowed me to travel independently without being scared. It's allowed me to take some risks and be confident in myself, which has ultimately led to the role that I'm in now led to to the role that I'm in now.
Speaker 1:Yes, and again, it's not those technical things or those, you know, computer science degrees that everybody thinks you have to have.
Speaker 1:It was the experiences that you you had when you were younger and the skills that you picked up along the way and just the confidence, um, that that would have brought to it. I completely agree with that because I worked in McDonald's when I was a student. And that experience just the public, mostly the public having to go at people that work in McDonald's about the speed that things are coming out or that everybody's got a hangover and they're desperate for a McDonald's breakfast, but the skills that you pick up with having to deal with the public that really does make you. And I sometimes look at the workers in McDonald's now who are still lots of students and I think that just to get through those shifts it's so difficult to get through a shift there and it's going to make you as a young person and you won't even realize until no years later what you don't hard work did to you yeah, you can't put a value on those experiences at the time.
Speaker 2:But yeah, looking back, the confidence that I have in myself now and the confidence I have speaking to anybody about anything, I wouldn't have that if I didn't work in a local pub. So yeah, when people know interested in coming into tech and they're worried about not having the right skills or experience, I'm a living, breathing example of um of having the right skills and experience. But just they've been. They've been building blocks added gradually over um over the course of a couple of decades.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's brilliant advice. And on that, people coming into tech many people think that you need to be a developer to work in the tech industry. What would you say to someone who's interested in tech but doesn't have that technical background, like a developer, for instance, who want to come in?
Speaker 2:So I don't know the exact figures, but I would hazard a guess that a huge portion of the people that work within the tech industry are not in roles that require any particular technical qualifications. The whole support network of IT and tech is built around soft skills, whether that's people going into the early stages of project management, product and delivery management, whether they're working in vendor management or procurement aligned to to tech. There are so many opportunities, opportunities and the landscape in in the technology sector is so vast that it's it's possible to, I think, quite easily find yourself if you can find yourself in a role, becoming quite comfortable. One of the things I would always point out is that I know I am, and a lot of people I work with are advocates for looking beyond people's CVs. So I I will, I will look, you know, obviously look at CVs that are put through, but emphasis is put on the, the type of person and their character and the potential that they, that they show when you're looking to fill roles, because I know I've been in a position where I've been desperately seeking opportunities to further my career, put myself in more interesting roles, and been quite hesitant to apply for jobs, because you look at particular lines on a job description and go, oh, I don't have that specific thing, I don't have this exact amount of years experience in this area.
Speaker 2:I would say, if you see a job in an organization that you are interested in exploring, contact the recruiter. Or if you can contact the, the, the recruiting manager, and just have a conversation. My, my motto, or my mantra that I repeat to myself, uh, on a number of occasions throughout the day, is what, what's the worst that will happen? You know, really assess the risks of doing something and sending a message on linkedin or via email. If you can, um to ask a question, you know, the worst thing that's going to happen is you might be ignored. Okay, fine, get over that and move on to the next one.
Speaker 2:But um, showing that, um, showing that intuition to be able to, to go ahead and open conversations is already showing confidence and communication skills. So I would uh always encourage people to to do that and just have those conversations and then, whilst you, when you do eventually find yourself in a role in tech, then learn as much you can about everything you know, speak to as many people as possible, be clear about how you see your career developing, tell people what you want to say, it's, it's the whole. I'm not really in. I don't know if I'm into manifestation, but I do believe in the more you say, the more you tell people about your, your plans and and your you know your desires. When it comes to a career, they're more likely to happen, um, and so be very vocal about what you'd like to do. It's um, it's certainly possible and, like I said, there's it's such a vast industry that there are always opportunities that come available.
Speaker 1:Just go for them and I completely agree on on being vocal about it, because it's something I realized a few years in was your manager isn't a mind reader. They don't know. They don't know if you want the promotion. Anyway, like you said, sometimes you're sitting there waiting for somebody to notice you or to push you in a certain direction and actually I found that some managers were pushing me in the completely different direction that I wanted to go and I was actually pushing back against those things, perhaps because I wasn't being vocal enough about where I wanted to go and what I actually wanted to do.
Speaker 1:And I think sometimes we do find ourselves just sort of sitting and waiting for other people to to notice um us or to for that promotion or even being vocal. I had a lady the other day who said I am very vocal about I don't want to go into management and she said I'm very vocal to my manager to not consider me for that role because I'd rather go and do something else. And she was promoted, but she wasn't promoted to a manager position. She was promoted within the work that she was already doing and to a senior level and she said that's what I wanted, but I had to be so vocal about it, because otherwise my manager would have been thinking that's, I want to go up the ladder, that's where I want to go, um. So yeah, sometimes it's just being mindful of that and sell your successes as well.
Speaker 2:It's uh, it's not. I think it's not a natural characteristic of British people. I don't think to um to show off and say I did this, I did that. But yeah, no one's looking out for your successes. You have to direct people to them and even if they're not in a directly relatable field or role, there are so many crossovers in requirements for roles, for soft skill roles in tech, that you might think it's insignificant, but let people know about it anyway. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you're right, we don't sing our praises. We have an awards at she Can Code and we encourage people to nominate themselves, but a lot of the time it's other people nominating other people. Because, you're right, it's almost like we don't want to put ourselves forward for something, and sometimes we get messages from people that have been nominated. They've received an email, and then they'll message and say I'm just checking, this is real, this isn't a scam.
Speaker 2:No, you have been nominated.
Speaker 1:A colleague noticed your fabulous work and you have been nominated Because you know you weren't going to self nominate, so somebody else recognised that and done it. But sometimes it's just, you know, having that courage to put yourself forward, nominate yourself for something If you think you're doing great things, just.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're the best, you're in the best position to know when you're doing a good job and when you're succeeding in things. So it makes sense that then you should be the one to to really celebrate that and go going right back to the beginning of the conversation talking about the frustration that I had, uh, in the role that I was in. I probably wasn't, you know, I was grumbling that people weren't celebrating what I was doing really well, but I wasn't talking about it either. I was like where's my gold star, where's my applause? And then that's that's, you know, a self-fulfilling prophecy. You become more frustrated and disengaged and then your performance does dip and you stop putting effort into it and it gets worse. But but if you start celebrating yourself and even saying that out loud now, I feel very comfortable, uncomfortable sorry in saying it because it kind of goes against my nature.
Speaker 2:But all the people that I saw, you know, making real changes, positive changes, in their career whilst I was in that slump, this is no doubt how they were acting. And so, by all means, stay in a role you're not happy with and, you know, just crack on and let that get you down. But changes can happen and they could be small changes, you know. But you just need to tell people what you want to do, and I know, certainly at Dun dunelm people are incredibly supportive of people's uh, career aspirations or lack of you know. You know, not everybody wants to have a career. They want to have a stable role, um, that provides security for their families, um, but if you let people know that, then, um, it's more likely to to happen I'm saying about manifesting.
Speaker 2:I have been manifesting a you know, a house and a life in the south of france for some time now and it hasn't happened. So maybe if I put that out on this podcast, it it might, it will happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's gone out there now yeah, it's in the universe we need to catch up next year. Uh, from the south of france, yeah, see how you got on um. Looking to the future, though, how do you see non-tech roles evolving in the tech industry, and are there any trends or changes that excite you about the future of your field?
Speaker 2:so there are. There are a lot of things in vendor management specifically that do excite me. It's been an area that's been growing at pace, certainly over the last five years, as organisations start to recognise the benefits of having a vendor management office within their teams, of having a vendor management office within their within their teams, providing maturity to tech relationship management and then freeing up the time of of colleagues to be able to do what they're best at and what and what they're there to do. Um, one of the one of the areas that I am excited about is the more conversations around strategic partnerships with our suppliers and really career development. You're working in tandem, working hand in hand with these organizations, and these are really at the forefront of new technology, these global organizations working with them, leaning on them for their expertise and guidance to allow Dunelm, in this particular scenario, to achieve what they want to AI.
Speaker 2:I know it's the buzzword, I think it's obligatory to mention it when we're talking about the future, but for me personally, to look at ways to remove repetitive tasks, to remove administration, maths, all these sorts of things that, again, are the things that are part and parcel of everyone's job, but I would much rather not have to to deal with.
Speaker 2:If that can be uh resolved in a in a smart way. I'm really excited uh to see where, where all roles um in tech, but particularly vendor management, can go. So to really focus on that communication, to be looking at the conversations around negotiations and um and continuous improvement, without the hours and hours it takes in in prep time, you know, with administration. That's that's what I'm looking forward to, and providing data to the organization to be able to make proactive decisions and not be reactively firefighting, which is where a lot of people find themselves, but positioning ourselves um right at the center of tech, so we're allowing the department to look forward and not constantly looking backwards at major incidents, for instance, or to risk mitigation. That's that's what's really exciting um about this position, and it brings real benefit to businesses.
Speaker 1:Um, that, yeah, and the growth in the role uh across tech has, yeah, has is a direct result of that yes, definitely, and mentally as well, being being at a company that enables you to feel like you're on the other side of that as well, that you're not always putting out fires, that you are there making the difference and moving forward. Every year you kind of look back and think, my gosh, I can't believe that we did all of that, that we moved forward and did that, rather than thinking well, at least you know, we managed to avoid that big thing happening this year. We managed to avoid that and we put out that fire. That's not fun. That is not somewhere where you want to stay. You want to feel like you're moving forward and really making a change within a company.
Speaker 1:Um, so, to have ai that's helping with that. We have exactly the same feeling of sometimes we say I don't know how we found the time to do all of those things and figure out all of those questions, where you could just ask now and the answer is there for you and it frees up your time to do something else. But to find yourself in a company where you actually feel like you're making change, that makes such a difference to you mentally every year, where you think, yes, I'm going to stay and I'm going to keep moving forward. Year where you think, yes, I'm going to stay and I'm going to keep moving forward and feeling like I'm really making change. Um, really just makes a difference to how long you stay at a company to to be fair, 100%.
Speaker 2:And, uh, the. The thing that strikes me at at Dunelm is there is that support and sponsorship for for my area, but there are any areas that are looking to improve things, whether that be saving money or, you know, speeding up responses, improving the customer experience. Most importantly, there there is freedom for people to go and discover those opportunities at at Dunelm, um, it's, yeah, I've had such a positive experience, um in the the 18 months that I've been here and I kind of subconsciously it's it's not a hard and fast rule, but since I spent so long in one company, I've always kind of given myself a limit of, you know, 18 months to two years. Assess where you are. If you're seeing growth and you're, you're happy, you're comfortable, you know, and it's, it's, it's having a positive effect on your home life and you can see development areas and you're learning and enjoying the people you're working with, then fine, crack on.
Speaker 2:But if you're not, then maybe that's the time to reassess what you're doing, and I am so far away from thinking that I might want to start to look for something else, because there's so much that is to be done. But then there are even things past the horizon that I see as opportunities, um for not not just my career but for for um the department and company as as a whole. That it just makes it interesting and exciting. So, yeah, it's been a really, really great experience for me so far.
Speaker 1:And that you're allowed to be part of that as well, because I've been at companies where I've had that thought of you know what there's so much to do here and there's so much opportunity, but then you find actually you can't be involved in that or leadership might be thinking something different and you're never going to get your hands on things to try and make a difference, because the team there is almost not trusted to be the experts that they are in their areas, as we were talking about earlier.
Speaker 1:So to find yourself in a company where not only you're excited about the change that you're going to do and all of the the challenges that are going to come up and how you're going to overcome them, but to be in a position where you're trusted as a team to do that, as well that makes such a difference where you think, yes, I am trusted to do my job, we can get over the challenges and work forward of whatever it is that that we're going to come up against this year, um, and to feel like you know, you, you did that, and that that that just boosts your confidence every year. But some companies you don't get the opportunity and you think you know what that's kind of. I've done my part here and I just need to leave and go somewhere else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and yeah, it's that autonomy and the trust um put in you by by your, your peers and and leaders within a company, it, it, it creates confidence, and the more you do, the the more you're able to do because you know um your ideas are going to be listened to, at least you know and and I've not come across any blockers um thus far but um, but yeah, is it. Why wouldn't you listen to people who have an idea? You know it might not work out, but you don't know until you try. And um, was it? That is it with?
Speaker 2:Failure isn't a learning opportunity or something like that? And of course, no one wants to fail, but um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's a refreshing position to be in, and and you know parts to my I like creative problem solving, I like speaking to people, I like fixing things and figuring things out. Um, all the things 10, 15 or maybe 10 years ago I would have dreamed of doing, and I haven't changed my role that much. I haven't gone into, I haven't had to go and get a degree or or anything like that.
Speaker 1:It's, um, yeah, it's just slowly, slowly carving out the role that suits you and finding the organization that fits you as well definitely, and that is lovely advice to end it on for our community, because we are already out of time, but it has been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. Thank you for letting me pick your brain about your, your role. I could keep talking to you for another couple of hours, but we are already out of time, so thank you so much not a problem, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much thank you and, to everybody listening, as always, thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
