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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Empowering women through tech: Lessons from an Educator
Join us in this inspiring episode as we delve into empowering women through technology with Sarah Soutoul an experienced educator and advocate for diversity in tech. Through Sarah’s insights and experiences, gained from years of teaching and mentoring women in tech, we explore the transformative power of education and mentorship.
Discover how fostering inclusive learning environments and mentorship opportunities can empower women to break barriers, believe in their potential, and thrive in tech careers. Whether you're just starting in tech or aiming to make a difference in fostering diversity, this episode offers valuable lessons and strategies to inspire and empower.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayleigh Bateman, the Managing Director Community and Partnerships at she Can Code, and today we are discussing empowering women through tech lessons from an educator. I've got the wonderful Sarah Soutal with me today, who is an experienced educator and advocate for diversity in tech. Through Sarah's insights and experiences gained from years of teaching and mentoring women in tech, we're going to explore the transformative power of education and mentorship. Welcome, sarah. Thank you so much for coming on spilling the tea thank you, what an intro.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I'm really excited to be here good.
Speaker 1:It's a pleasure to have you on. Thank you, taking time out of your busy day to come and have a chat and to inspire our community. So we'd love to start with a little bit about you, if that's OK. A little bit about your background.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely so. I originally. I'm from France originally, but I haven't lived in France for 10 years now. I've been in the US, I've been in the UK, I am now in Mexico and my career, my whole career has been a bit of a roller coaster, because I started wanting to be a journalist, I then went into software engineering and now I'm an educator in tech, and so I think all of this kind of links nicely together, because I do think in tech there's a lot of storytelling involved and communication, and that helped me massively to have that journalism background.
Speaker 2:But I would say now I'm really focused around the intersection between tech and education. And how do you, you know, empower other people to start their own tech journey the same way? I was empowered back then by a mentor, and that's really what I'm trying to do on a day-to-day basis is give that confidence, especially women, to start your journey in tech and to have that, you know, confidence to just go for it and feel like you could become a tech leader at some point in your career. And that's really kind of what I've been doing for the past few years.
Speaker 1:Amazing. I love that you connected your the styles kind of aligned for you when you moved across industries and that you made that connection, because a lot of our community are career transitioners. They started in a different area, they came into tech and we get asked that question all the time about how do you move into tech when you don't have experience. But a lot of it is just showing your story and how your skills can easily transfer into tech. And I love the fact that you connected telling stories and communicating and that that just crossed over perfectly. But it's finding that like what, what is it that? How you can come into the tech industry, and normally there's just a really easy way to cross over, but it's. It's finding that story, isn't it? And having that confidence, as you said, or somebody sometimes to give you that kick to actually do it yes, definitely.
Speaker 2:I get career changers all the time and me being a career changer helps a lot because I can tell them about my experience and then they feel confident going for it. And I always say and I'll say later, you know if you, if you ask me in more details around this but, like I always say, tech is massive and it, like you know, it needs that diverse skill set and those diverse backgrounds and so whatever you've been before actually might help, like whatever you've learned before might be strength in the tech world and you don't need to be a computer science you know graduate to get into tech. Actually, nowadays, if I was a CEO in tech, I would hire people who you know have a different background, because I think it's a major strength.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and I think people worry about that that actually having a different background is a major strength versus knowing how to communicate that. So what inspired you to become an educator in the tech space and what has your journey been like?
Speaker 2:tech space and what has your journey been like? So it comes back to university, where I was studying journalism. So basically I wanted to be a journalist at first, and as part of a curriculum at university we had this required class called coding for and I remember thinking why would I ever need to learn how to code as a journalist? So I was really skeptical at first. I thought why do we need to take this class? And basically that class completely changed the trajectory of my career and what I thought I wanted to do. So I absolutely fell in love with coding from the first day I took the class. I fell in love with it. I fell in love with the problem solving, the creativity and just like how powerful it was. And so it was this light bulb moment in my head. I realized how cool coding was, how it could be a potential career for me, because up until then I had never even considered, you know, tech or coding as a possible career path. It wasn't something that I had much exposure to. I definitely didn't see myself as someone who would be good at it, and at the time my professor, who later became my mentor, saw potential in me and encouraged me to keep going, so I took more coding classes with her. I also took part in what we call at the time the interactive desk of our student newsroom, which was all about using code to build interactive stories, and so I got really involved with that. I eventually became the editor of that desk in my senior year, and that was really the start of my journey into tech. And little did I know that, you know.
Speaker 2:After graduating, I basically did a 180 and decided to go into software engineering. I never thought I'd be getting a job, given my background and my lack of, you know, computer science degree knowledge, which I later understood. Like I said, that doesn't matter, we can go into that later. But yeah, as a software engineer, I love the problem aspect, um, the problem aspect, the problem solving aspect, sorry of it. And a few years, few years in, I basically started feeling like I wanted something more social, um, something where I could have a direct impact on people. And, luckily enough, that's when I got a message on LinkedIn from a company looking for a senior engineering trainer. Again, I had never really considered teaching before, but it immediately caught my interest and so I decided to go for it, which is how I became an educator.
Speaker 2:I think, looking back, when I reflect on that transition, what drove me to make that transition is my own experience. I got into tech in a pretty, you know, unconventional way and I knew that there had to be others like me, people you know, who never saw themselves in tech because of a lack of exposure, lack of confidence. So I was lucky enough to have that mentor who guided me, and the fact that she was a woman was especially impactful and it made me realize, ok, representation is important, mentorship is important. So I wanted to become that person for others and to help open doors that you know they might not have even considered. So I went for it.
Speaker 2:It was one of the best decisions I've ever made, from day one. It just felt right. I had never taught before, but it just felt right. I felt like I was supposed to do this my entire life.
Speaker 2:And I would say the most rewarding part around it is the growth and the transformation in my students, especially women.
Speaker 2:You see someone coming in with an extremely, you know, low confidence about themselves and their skills and then you see them completely flourish and become, you know, the best versions of themselves and just go for it, and I've seen firsthand how much representation plays a role in that growth.
Speaker 2:Like even having a female educator in front of you, just existing, is so incredibly empowering for the women that I teach, and I didn't realize this after a few months, but me just being there for them and having that representation helped them massively.
Speaker 2:And so that's what I love the most about my job is is being that representation, seeing that growth and you know like it's someone who looks like you and it makes a difference, and that's what happened for me and I'm happy that I'm doing that for others now. So that's kind of my journey. But just to finish off, another aspect I love about it is you're constantly learning. You're always learning as an educator. Actually, I learned way more as an educator that I did as a software engineer, because you're forced to break concepts down, you're forced to understand what's going on behind the scenes because you have to explain it, you have to really know what you're talking about, and so, yeah, that's what I love about it is that intersection between continuing to code and learn about tech while empowering others to start their own journeys in tech yes, I love that.
Speaker 1:Um, I can relate to so much of your story. Our stories are very similar. But you're like somebody that actually went on to do it and you're kind of like, oh, could I have done that? So, um, when I was younger in the 90s, I used to look at um Kate Adie on the news in her like war correspondent, you know, like her um bulletproof vest, and I used to look and I think I want to do that. That is what I wanted to do because she was on the news, she was a woman and I was like, yeah, I can see myself doing that. My parents were like, no, but journalism, we can talk about that. So I ended up going into journalism.
Speaker 1:But once I started working on websites, I found that I was starting to work in the back end of websites and I was sent on courses and I learned to code and I never would have connected the two because I always worked on the front end doing stories. And then, the more that our company grew, my editor didn't mind if I dabbled in the back end and built different like pages and things. So I was sent on a few courses and I had that thought of you know what? What if I actually went off and did that, because there is such an alignment with between telling stories and coding, like you said, and I never pushed myself to go into it. I did take some weekend courses as well on my own and I never pursued it and you're like the person that went off and actually fulfilled the dream and done it. But, but you're right, it's finding somebody that kind of encourages you to keep going on those steps, because you have to be quite disciplined to keep going and to keep driving yourself in that direction. Because for me, I got very bogged down in my day to day. I ended up staying on the word side of things and I went into advertising for a little bit, which I still really enjoyed, and moved around.
Speaker 1:But you're right, it's finding somebody that can encourage you or inspire you to move to the next bit and actually think you know I could actually take that forward and transition into into the tech industry and do it as a job. So I love that your story is is really aligned with mine as somebody that actually went off and done it as a job. So, um, I love that your story is is really aligned with mine, um, as somebody that that actually went off and done it, and he's now inspiring other people to take that that leap, um, as well. But you know, all things aren't all plain sailing. Though I made that sound like, you were like yep knew what I wanted to do and I went off and done it. But I wanted to ask you about the challenges that you faced along the way? Um, because I'm sure there were a few, but what are the biggest challenges women face when entering or transitioning into tech, and how can education help overcome them? What were yours?
Speaker 2:Thank you, god, there's so many.
Speaker 1:It's not like you just decided you wanted to come into tech and it was all plain sailing.
Speaker 2:No, it wasn't, it wasn't at all. And all the challenges I faced, challenges that my students face still to this day. I think it's become better, but they're still there. I think the biggest one that stand out to me from my experience as an educator would be the lack of confidence and imposter syndrome. A lot of women hesitate to pursue tech because they just don't see themselves as technical enough. And as I'm doing this for people listening, I'm doing the quotes because you don't need to be technical enough to go into tech, um, or they feel like they don't belong.
Speaker 2:And the thing is, this isn't about ability. To me, it's about conditioning. It's how we've been conditioned, like as women and men from the start. From an early age, boys are often, you know, encouraged to experiment with technology and take her with things and playing with computers, and then girls are slowly pushed towards more creative or people focus fields. I think over time, that creates this kind of self-perception gap and by the time they reach, you know, higher education or the workforce, many women will internalize the belief that tech is hard, it's not for me or I'm'm not naturally, you know, suited for it, and so I've seen this play out firsthand in my classes.
Speaker 2:I've seen so many women in my classes automatically gravitate towards UX design or project management Not that you know those aren't. You know great fields and people in those fields are extremely smart. But they automatically gravitate towards that versus you know more, I would say technically complex fields because they think they aren't good enough for it. And if they struggle with a concept or didn't complete tasks as fast as their male counterparts imposter syndrome is, you know hits extremely hard. So the way I kind of handle this with my female students I always say to them well, being good at tech doesn't just mean coding fast or solving problems in an overly complex way. Actually, this can be counterproductive. The best engineers to me aren't necessarily the ones who write the most complicated code. They're the ones who communicate well, who think creatively, who understand the bigger picture. Also, tech is so much broader than just coding, so there are so many different roles out there nowadays that you can do, you know. So it's like expanding this narrative around what a tech career can look like. I think is really important. This narrative around what a tech career can look like, I think is really important because it helps them see okay, I do not need to go in this specific field or I don't need to fit in this specific box. I can kind of build my own path depending on my strength as a person, and the way education helps with this is through, you know again, representation, creating a structured and supportive learning environment when everyone can go at their own pace.
Speaker 2:And then the final one that I always try to remind women of is what you see as weaknesses could be huge strength in the tech space. When I was an engineer, my journalism background helped me immensely. I could communicate my ideas clearly, I could write great documentation, I could think critically about the storytelling and the user experience of my products, and not everyone around me was able to do that, and that's honestly thanks to my background in journalism. So I always say use your background, because it's actually a strength. It's not a weakness at all, you know, and that's the biggest one for me, I mean.
Speaker 2:The second one is around, is kind of linked to this, but it's around representation and, you know, having role models. I think is super important again to have someone that looks like you, that you know has similar, a similar background, that aligns with your values, in front of you, and you can do that through getting into women in tech spaces and meeting those people and making sure you have that representation around you. So community is huge in that aspect. You need to make sure you build that community.
Speaker 2:And then the final one I would say is exposure, because that's what happened to me. I didn't have it exposed to me as a real career option. Um, I think it has changed a lot, but for me, I didn't even think about it until I took this class in university, um, so I think early exposure is key. The more you introduce tech in schools, boot camps, community programs, the more women will see it as a viable option and share your story as a someone that works in education. Share your story because it can help someone to think okay, I can do this, like I should be able to do this, I have the ability definitely I love that.
Speaker 1:I love everything you just said, because, especially around community, in our community, we ask the ladies to do a short intro when they come in. So they just drop a little thing on the live feed that says, hey, I'm so-and-so, I work in this area, if anyone is similar to me or I'm just starting in tech and anybody point me in the right direction, just a couple of lines that somebody else will jump in and say, hey, I do that, and they'll direct message each other and you start building that network of people that are feeling the same way as you and you just feel a little bit better about you know, you're not the only new person, you're not the only person that's feeling exactly that way, having imposter syndrome, but you don't even have to be it's. It's quite nerve-wr for some people to say I don't want to go to a networking event or you know I can't put myself out there, but just finding that little community where you can share your thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I used to hate networking events. Yes, you're not the only one.
Speaker 1:It is awkward. It takes away that awkwardness of having to go and meet people and asking those questions because I'm used to about job titles. We get asked that all the time about the different job titles and some companies they totally make them up and they make no sense, so that doesn't help. So, trying to educate yourself on the types of roles, the job titles that go with them, when we get asked a lot actually did, um, a webinar on it. We had a, a post that did really well on our blog and it was what's the difference between a developer, a programmer and an engineer? Because our community was so confused and they're still dropping in that question now because it is confusing for people. You're not the only person that is thinking that and just trying to educate yourself on the types of roles and what's expected of you and, like you said, not always just going for those ux roles or product management because they seem like perhaps you should be going in that area.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, finding out what all the others in town as well, for sure, and there's so many out there. I mean, there's roles being like, created as we speak, exactly Especially in AI, so it's a dirty word at the moment.
Speaker 1:I should be saying it's always like it's the controversial word AI. Can you share a success story of a student who overcame obstacles and thrived in their tech career and thrived in?
Speaker 2:their tech career. God, yeah, I've got so many. Honestly, I'd rather talk about the collective journey that all my students have gone through rather than one single student, because I feel like I've gotten like each story is so unique but also like a lot of stories connect with each other. You know, I've had students come into the program with absolutely no background in tech, no computer science degree, no prior coding experience, so I've had music producers, doctors, accountants, lawyers and wanting, you know, a career switch basically, and within a few months they managed to switch their career and they landed their first tech role and they are thriving in that tech role and to me that's incredible to witness because it really shows that anyone can do it with the right mindset and the right resources, the right environment and the right people.
Speaker 2:I've also had women who came in with, you know, very low confidence, thinking they couldn't possibly make it into the industry because they didn't see themselves again as technical enough. But not only they made it, they thrived in the career. You know, they got promoted. Some of them are now leaders in their teams. Um, so that to me is one of the biggest success story, because they basically pushed through that initial doubt and it really paid off because of where they are now.
Speaker 2:And then I've got, you know, students who come in thinking they want to be something specific, like a developer, but then, through the program, they discover how incredibly deep sorry the tech space is, um, and they, you know, may fall in love with ux design, or they may fall in love with data science, or they may fall in love with data science, and they pivot and they find a path that they're even more passionate about, and that kind of growth, to me, is priceless. That's really, I would say, the three, maybe, categories that I've had in terms of stories of students, but to me, every success story is unique in its own way. They all have this common thread, though, which is transformation. It's always, you know, about either finding a new path, or gaining that confidence, or discovering a new passion, and that is, I think, the biggest success story of my job, is that transformation that I see all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's amazing as well is people like that.
Speaker 1:They don't realize how inspiring they are to other people and they they kind of think you know I was thinking about giving something a go and it's like no, please, like you said earlier, share your story, because the more people that hear that, the more people will think actually I could do that.
Speaker 1:And we at she Can Code, we obviously we interview a lot of people, we talk to a lot of our community and a lot of our ladies don't realize they have really good stories to tell and they'll they'll say something and sort of drop it into conversation like why why haven't we spoken about that? That's amazing, but especially with career transitioners, they don't quite realize how inspiring they are to other people and, which always just amazes me that you know there aren't many people that have that drive and that passion to think I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a different path, and some people just stay in their way the whole time yeah, yeah, yeah, but I think of I think it comes also from the fact that, as women, we struggle to like shout about ourselves sometimes and, you know, to say how amazing we are, and I think we need to do that more because that's what drives that someone else to maybe do the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. We run an award series for that reason and we have a lot of ladies some self-nominate we do. We do obviously say self-nominate or nominate a colleague, but we do find that a lot of our ladies are nominated by other people and when they come and collect their awards or they make it onto the shortlist, they can't quite believe it. Do you know the amazing things that you're doing? We started that as well, to highlight ladies that you've never really heard of, because there are some brilliant senior women in tech lists and we love that and we should be showing that. That's great. But what about all the ladies that you know nobody's heard of yet, that are kind of up and coming and they're the ones that we kind of wanted to throw into the spotlight, because a lot of those ladies just don't know how inspiring they are to other ladies.
Speaker 1:Definitely yeah, definitely you touched upon it earlier. A little bit about mentorship and finding a good mentor.
Speaker 2:Um, what role does mentorship play in empowering women in tech, and how can aspiring tech professionals find great mentors, because that's a hard one sometimes yeah, yeah, sure, I mean I was lucky enough that I guess my mentor just appeared in my life, lucky, you know, and I'm still in contact with her and she's following my journey and it's amazing. But yeah, I did find her, quite luckily, because she was my professor at the time and if I hadn't connected with her back then, I don't know if I would be in the place I am today. I think that's how important mentorship is For me. Mentorship is not just about giving career advice. It should create this sense of belonging, you know. It should help you through moments of doubt. It should provide you a community to lean on. And when you see someone else who's been through similar challenges and struggles, it makes it much easier to picture yourself succeeding. And my mentor struggled a lot as a woman in tech back in the day. I say this like she's really old, she's not that old, she's going to probably kill me but she struggled a lot as a woman in her job back then and that really made the difference for me to hear that because she instilled this courage in me to always keep going. You know, she had me navigate all the challenges that come with being in a you know, being a woman in a male dominated field, which is again changing, obviously, but that's really important to me.
Speaker 2:I also think that mentorship should be a two-way street. It's not about finding someone to help you, but about building this connection where both sides are learning and growing, you know, from each other. So my advice in finding a great mentor is go for someone who aligns with your values and aspirations, who has gone through similar challenges in life but also challenges you and pushes you outside of your comfort zone. You know, my mentor used to always be Sarah. Stop saying this about yourself. Why are you saying this? You know, do this. And she was quite, quite harsh about it in a good way, because she always pushed me to be the best version that I could be, and I think that's really important. I also think that you should be comfortable with that person and feel safe that you can, you know, really open up, share your experiences. That's something I always try to create with the women in my classes. I wanted them to feel comfortable enough so that it could come to me for any advice or any guidance, whether it's in their professional life or their personal life, and in terms of finding a mentor.
Speaker 2:I think we talked about this earlier, but I think people are often intimidated by the idea of networking, um, the thing is, it doesn't have to be formal anymore. I think it used to be very formal. You would go to an event and you would dress up really fancy and you'd have, you know, cocktail, food, um. But I think nowadays, like networking, can be digital and there are tons of ways to connect with someone, whether it's through a LinkedIn message or meeting at a women in tech event, and I would encourage anyone to really find this women in tech communities. I'm involved in a lot of them and it's made me feel part of a larger community them and it's made me feel part of a larger community.
Speaker 2:And I think also I'm a huge advocate of dropping a message on LinkedIn to have a coffee chat or to, like, seek advice, even if you don't know the person. I've done that so many times. I don't always get responses, but when I do get a response, it usually leads to either a good connection or career advice or a resource that can help me, so it always leads to something good. I've never had any negative.
Speaker 2:You know things happening from from that and it's amazing how much you can learn from just having a conversation with someone who's who's been there. So that would be my advice is find someone that aligns with your values, and you can find those people by going to these women in tech spaces or communities. There are so many out there, whether they're in person or virtual, and just put yourself out. There is my, is my advice. And don't think that you know, you have to go to this fancy kind of networking events to meet someone, because you don't need to yes, I couldn't agree more, um, and that just just yeah, it feels people would dread thinking about it.
Speaker 1:I love the fact, as though, that you said finding a mentor that um is that will share their struggles and challenges, because that's so empowering to hear.
Speaker 1:When you think I'm the one that's struggling, I'm the one that you know, especially when you first step into leadership, and you think I'm the one that's struggling, I'm the one that you know, especially when you first step into leadership and you think everybody expects you to have all the answers and you're like I internally, like I'm not quite sure what I'm doing and I have no one to talk to about it Because I can't share that. I'm feeling that way when that first happens to you, it's a hearing that other people have felt exactly the same way and that ladies are willing to share their struggles. Because we always have this like perfect view everywhere on, you know, instagram and social, and like always celebrating the good things, and that's great, but we all want to hear the struggles. That's what we really want to hear like I'm not the only one that is feeling that way. So to have a mentor that's really honest um would be amazing to find because just so you can be like it's not just me and how do I move forward?
Speaker 2:yeah, you want to be able to relate and think, okay, like they're not perfect, because you look at them as goddesses. So you know, and it's not.
Speaker 1:It's not the case a lot of the times exactly exactly, um, on that, what advice would you give to women, uh, who may be hesitant to pursue a tech career due to self-doubt or imposter syndrome and we spoke a little bit about that earlier and it's just being able to relate to someone else, it's feeling exactly the same way. But do you have any advice that you would just, you know, kind of shake that woman by the shoulders and say you need to know this?
Speaker 2:definitely, and I have shaked um. You know I've had so many women come to me with this exact question in the course that I was doing, either looking for advice on how to reduce the imposter syndrome or wanting to quit, to give up, because they felt like they weren't keeping up enough with the course or they weren't intelligent enough. The number of times I've heard the word stupid come out of women's mouth is crazy and it's always heartbreaking. And when I hear that I feel extremely sad. I just want to hug them and tell them how powerful they are, how well they're doing, and I've had many episodes of that, you know, crying and just feeling extremely low and unworthy for the course. And what I always tell them is you know, first off, you're not alone.
Speaker 2:I myself feel a lot of imposter syndrome. I've got the skills, I've got the knowledge, I've been in software engineering, I am teaching this stuff, and yet I feel imposter syndrome, you know all the time. And they are shocked when they hear that. They're like but you seem so confident, sarah. But you know, you know all this stuff. Why are you feeling this? And I said to them well, there are women out there who have 20, plus 30, plus years of experience, who still feel imposter syndrome. You know, it doesn't matter how long you've been in the industry. You are going to feel that properly all your life. The key is to recognize it and, to you know, find techniques and ways to reduce it or, you know, to just feel okay about it. So I said to them like imposter syndrome is natural, everyone has got it. The key is to recognize that these feelings don't actually reflect your actual ability. Yes, they come from these insecurities and this conditioning that I talked about earlier. You know, it's not what you're saying is not rational, like it's not reflecting at all your ability. And so I said to them look at the journey that you've had so far, since day one of the boot camp or the course. Look at how much you've grown, how much you've learned, you know. Look at the skills you've acquired. And they're like, oh, yeah, that's true. Like two weeks ago I couldn't do that and now I can do it. And I'm like, yeah, you know, and it may seem small to you, but actually it's going to become bigger and bigger as we go, you know, through the course. And then the other thing I said to them is you think again I said this earlier, but you think this is a weakness, but actually it's a strength and you've got these skills that not a lot of people in tech have. So you're actually more powerful than you think you know.
Speaker 2:Um, I think another thing I say all the time is tech can be really overwhelming. There's so much to learn and it's constantly evolving and it can sometimes feel like there's always something you know new to catch up on. I feel overwhelmed myself all the time. I think the key here is to start small and take things one step at a time. So, you know, it's okay to not know everything. You're not going to know everything.
Speaker 2:I don't know everything myself and focus on building that one skill at a time and let that lead you to the next, and also remember that failure is part of the process. Again, so many women have come to me saying I failed because I couldn't do this task and I said to them well, no, you haven't. You know you might need more time or you might need some guidance, and that's OK, because you're in a bootcamp for a reason You're learning in the first place, you know. So it's part of the process. You're going to fail and if you embrace that, it's actually going to become a superpower down the line. So those are always the kind of advices that I give to women. But it's tough. It's tough because, you know, I never heard a man come to me and say I'm stupid, I can't do this. They probably think it, but they're not going to say it.
Speaker 2:Say it Exactly and you know it's crazy, but it's, I think, important to just remind them that they can go at their own pace. And tech is so massive and it's hard. And you know, it doesn't matter how if, if they're doing something at a pace that's slower than someone else, because everyone has their own way of learning and they're gonna get there. And you know. Also, like make them realize how much they've grown, because people tend to forget about what they've done in the past. They're like oh, I'm struggling right now, but it's like, okay, you were struggling two weeks ago about something else, you're now amazing at it, so you know. So it's like making that realization really yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:It's something I'm going to take from that is whether or not my feelings align with my ability, because usually you're just having a moment where you're like everything's just closing in on me and you just need to stop and have a reality check sometimes, like you said, to remember those things that you have achieved, how far you've come, um, because we, we all have those moments and we all have those weeks where we're like oh, that wasn't very good and you can so quite easily just crash out at that point and just give up and think like that's it. But it's usually in those moments where, if you can just hold on and keep going and find a solution. It's in those moments where you look back and think, oh, thank god I didn't drop out of that boot camp. Oh, thank god, I just kept going um and listen to trainers like you and just thought you know I'm, I'm just going to ignore what I'm thinking, I'm just going to go with what Sarah's thinking.
Speaker 2:For sure, and like I think, when I had several women in my classes, in the same class, it made a huge difference Because, again, it's like those women existing, you know, in the same sphere was enough to make them feel I can do this and then, you know, reach out for that support and reach out for that community.
Speaker 1:Yes. So what about when you get through the boot camp and then you reach work and within companies? What actionable steps can companies, educators, industry professionals take to foster more inclusivity and support women in tech? It's one thing making it through, but then you go off into the world of work or you keep studying. Is there anything that you think steps that those those companies or educators can can do to to support women in tech?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's such a good point. I've had women reach out to me, you know, month after the boot camp they've got a job and they say to me like but Sarah, the people here are not as nice as you. They don't you know, they don't encourage me or they don't you know, say this stuff.
Speaker 1:Like I know, the real world is tough baptism of fire when you reach work yeah yeah, it's landing in the right company in the first place, but even that is tough for sure.
Speaker 2:Um, I think it's such an important question that not enough companies ask themselves um, for me, it's about committing to creating, including, environments that aren't just about checking boxes but are actively working to challenge, you know, gender bias and stereotypes, and forming that comfortable and inclusive environment. And by that I mean a lot of companies will show, you know, superficial efforts to seem diverse or inclusive, like, for example, hitting a certain percentage or quarter. I'm not saying it's that is completely bad. I think there's some good aspect about it. But I do think that you need to go beyond that. You need to, you know, create environments where women and underrepresented groups feel, you know, supported, valued and empowered. The way that you know this should be done done, I think, from a hiring perspective at first is make sure you have blind recruitment processes in place, yeah, where you just purely focus on skills and qualifications, making that process much more equitable. Um, I also think that you should look beyond the traditional tech background. Um, I think there's still companies that put on their, you know, job description a background in computer science and it's. It's a shame, because I think a lot of women will see this. I did that myself. I see this and I'm like, oh, this is not for me, you know, and it's a shame. Actually, they should put in their, you know, they should put something that is much more inclusive in terms of the background that you may have. So value those transferable skills from other industries that actually might be really good for your development team. And then I think another thing that companies should do is put in place, you know, mentorship opportunities within the company where women have access to, you know, other women to support each other. So, you know, create those mentorship programs, basically, and those networks, and I think that way women can connect, they can feel a sense of belonging. And, on top of that, make sure that you know women can advance into senior positions. I mean, this is the thing I always say If you work for a company and the whole leadership board is men, honestly, as a woman you don't feel represented and you don't feel like your issues are going to be heard. So create those pathways for women to advance in senior positions so that you have that representation at the top, which then actually is going to attract more women, probably, and more underrepresented groups, and then it's going to create that cycle of, you know, um, women will feel more likely to apply for those senior positions if they see the representation at the top. So that's kind of my advice for companies.
Speaker 2:I think for educators um, there's everything I've just said already, you know, creating that safe space, partnering with women in tech organizations and having, like, diverse speakers. But I think, the biggest one for me that is so easy to do as an educator. You don't need any resources, you just need yourself. Be open and be authentic about your own struggles and challenges. This is what I always did.
Speaker 2:I always, you know, showed that people to people in front of me that I was a human as well, that I made mistakes, that I failed, that I wasn't perfect, that I don't know everything. I had lots of students ask me questions that I didn't know the answer to. Instead of being, like you know, kind of weird about it, or or trying to make up an answer, I would just be like, oh, I actually don't know that, but let's look it up together or, you know, let me look at it and I'll come back to you. Um, so be open that about that stuff, because I think it shows students that you're you've gone through similar experiences. It can make them feel less isolated and more empowered to keep going. So be authentic is my biggest advice to educators when it comes to to that yes, I love that.
Speaker 1:It's been quite vulnerable as well to to do that, to to step up and say, yeah, I've had problems as well, the only one that's quite vulnerable um place to be on the company side of things.
Speaker 1:You know what we? So we work with several corporate ambassadors. They support us and help us to keep our community free for our ladies and we love the fact that they want to work with us on different things throughout the year, because we we can see when companies will tweet one thing, for instance, on like international women's day, and they think that will solve all of their problems and that's it, and it's it's a very surface level um effort. Like you said. It's some companies you'll get in and you think actually they haven't done much around diversity. They've just sent out one happy iwd tweet and that's it. Yeah, and you think actually they haven't done much around diversity. They've just sent out one happy IWD tweet and that's it, and you've fallen into the wrong company.
Speaker 1:But we work with lots of companies that want to do things with us all year and you can see it. When we get to talk to their ladies, you can see the difference it makes, because those ladies want to talk about their day job and why they love it and what they do, and there's such a difference in ladies that work for companies that are really trying in terms of, you know, improving diversity, and all those companies have got the answers and some of them they come to us because they lack women in tech, but they're really trying to move the needle and make a difference and it really shows in their content.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's amazing, like I, and it's really chosen, that's right. Yeah, that's amazing, like I think it's becoming much better, but it's, um, you know, something that companies need to be aware of because actually they would get so much benefits from it, I think, like more than they realize, not just from a business perspective, but from a culture perspective yes, definitely and definitely on on retaining those ladies as well, because that's the other thing.
Speaker 1:They come out of boot camps, like the one that you work on, courses, for instance. They come out, they go into work and then they think, actually, after a year, this isn't for me, and trying to retain good talent once they're in is another thing. So if you've got the right culture or you're working on your culture, then you're far likely to retain those ladies right through to leadership, hopefully at some point. But it does take a lot and it's not something that happens overnight obviously Definitely not. So we're already out of time. I could keep chatting to you for another two hours on this topic and keep asking you all about the ladies that go through the courses that you work on, but thank you so much for coming on and having a chat with us today. It's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much.
Speaker 2:I love being here. Honestly, I love talking about this stuff again. I could talk about it for hours amazing.
Speaker 1:Thank you. We're gonna have to have you back then, but to everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
