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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Ace the Tech Interview: Tips for Success From Preparation to Negotiation
In this episode, we tackle one of the most crucial aspects of landing a tech job: the interview process. Listen to Maggie Elentukh, VP of Comms, and Sharahn McClung, Career Coach, both from TripleTen, and learn how to prepare effectively for technical interviews, master common questions with confidence, and avoid common pitfalls.
We’ll also dive into strategies for post-interview follow-ups and tips to navigate salary negotiations like a pro. Whether you’re a first-time job seeker or a seasoned professional, this episode will arm you with actionable advice to excel in your next interview.
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Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the Managing Director, Community and Partnerships at she Can Code, and today we are discussing Ace, the Tech interview tips for success, from preparation to negotiation. In this episode I've got two wonderful ladies with me from Triple Ten, Maggie and Sharon. They're both here. They're going to talk about how to tackle and prepare for technical interviews, master those common questions with confidence and avoid common pitfalls to land that dream job. Welcome ladies. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1:Thank you for taking time out of your busy days at Triple Thames to come and have a chat on Spilling the Tea. We'd love to get started with some backgrounds about each of you, if that's okay, just to set the tone for our community. Maggie, should we start with you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely so. I work at Triple Ten as a VP of Brand and Communication, so I'm actually on the marketing side and I've held marketing roles in the tech space for going on about eight years now and I'm thrilled to be here today and talk more about acing the tech interview Amazing.
Speaker 1:Are you a techie, techie, a techie background? Were you that child that took apart the toaster or anything of that nature?
Speaker 3:Definitely not. I came into a tech space by way of both marketing sort of consumer-driven marketing and as well as education. So where I work now at Triple Ten, I really got to this place via the education route. I spent about eight years of my career working in K-12 education and from there in K-12 education and from there that was very much a nonprofit job. So I was doing marketing in the education, k-12 education space and it was from there that I took my first job in a more traditional tech sort of startup environment. That was at Hazel Health and they provided healthcare in K-12 schools, but they were a tech-driven platform and very much the first place I worked it was in San Francisco, a small startup at the time like 25 people. It was very much my first time taking a step into a brand new world. So I've always worked as a marketer, never been very techie, but I sort of made that huge leap into a tech-driven organization and that was a big, scary leap to make at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Working in San Francisco as well. You're going to catch that techie bug. That's a super cool city to work in and not work in tech. Yeah, Sharan yourself, what is your background and what do you do at triple 10?
Speaker 2:um at triple 10. I am a career coach and also a curriculum developer, um, so I get to be, as I say, boots on the ground and actually um spend a lot of time meeting our students and working with them, um as they work through their program and then as they job seek, and then I have the luxury of working on the lessons and the content that they actually interact with on our platform. And my background how I got here is by way of performing arts. I've been a performing artist my entire life, since I was four. I was a classical ballerina and I never would have thought that that would have led me to world of tech, but it did, because I went to performing arts school at a tech school and one of the things that we had to do to graduate, regardless of who we were, was learn how to code.
Speaker 1:You know what? This is a first for spilling the tea. I've never had a classical ballerina say she fell into tech.
Speaker 2:Literally literally out of the tutus and into the stacks. So it was very interesting. I felt very sorry for our tutor. It was actually at classical acting school. I decided that classical ballet wasn't the route to go. So classical acting was because I could get a degree and.
Speaker 2:But when I was a working actor and moved to New York City, one of the first people I met said you really should take a look at this book on Python for dummies. And I said why? And he said because you already know how to code. And I said, okay, that was like nine weeks and it was really hard. And he said, no, shakespeare, if you can do Shakespeare, you can code. And if you can do Shakespeare for an audience and have them follow you, then you can talk to non-technical people and be a bridge. And I thought, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:So then fast forward like a couple of decades and I thought, oh, I remember when this person said this to me. Maybe I should look into that. And that is that pathway is what ended me up here at Triple Ten right now. But yes, it is unique. I never would have thought that those things would go together and that I would find so many people in my journey, who really saw an absolute connection between the arts and the creativity side and then the technical side, and that they go hand in hand and that they're both better with each other that you said that, that they are creative and go hand in hand.
Speaker 1:That is a myth that we try and bust on this podcast that being in tech is not creative, because a lot of ladies that we speak to in our community they're from artistic backgrounds.
Speaker 1:They say, oh, you know what I really loved doing, art at school, for instance, and how I wanted to know how to connect the two, because I was that child who took apart the toaster. How do I connect the two? And that is something, though, that when you're on the outside of the tech industry, I think people think it's not going to be creative and you're not going to have a creative role or an innovative role, and that your day job is going to be quite boring and dull. And that is to people outside of tech, but those inside tech know it's almost like a well-kept secret that we want the rest of the world to know about um. So I'm so pleased that that you um echoed that and that you come from um performing arts. That is a that's a first. We do hear a lot of weird and wonderful careers on this podcast. I haven't had a ballerina before.
Speaker 3:It's fascinating that both of us came from completely non-technical backgrounds and our career took us in this direction to end up in a technical space. I feel like that's so true of so many of us and so many of our students and so many women who transitioned into tech, that they end up applying whatever it was they did before into the tech space in a really unexpected way. I never expected that my job in K-12 education non-profits one of the least technical places you could imagine would take me on a pathway into a tech career, but I'm so glad it did.
Speaker 1:You're so right and because there are so many transferable skills into tech that people don't realize and the tech industry is always crying out for good talent and it's that barrier that people think you have to have a computer science degree. You have to have you know, studied that from a young age, to come in, and we love that when ladies share what you know, studied that from a young age to to come in. Um, and we love that when ladies share what we know, how they fell into tech and they didn't do it from graduation. Because we have a lot of ladies ask, especially on our live webinars. One of the questions that we receive a lot is um, is it too late?
Speaker 1:Because people do wonder that if I've been in work 15 years already, is it too late? Because people do wonder that if I've been in work 15 years already, is it too late to learn something new and transition into tech? Or a lot of ladies say my husband works in tech and now, working at home, I can see what a great role that is. How do I retrain and go into the tech industry? Because they suddenly see someone else is doing it, but they do worry is it too late? And obviously it's never too late to learn something new and just take all those skills and come over and get a new job.
Speaker 3:I was 33 when I made that transition and that, so that really resonates with me. I there was a huge part of me that was just having to learn an entirely new culture the first time I stepped into a tech interview. I remember really thinking and thinking and overthinking what to wear to that tech interview because I was coming from New York in a little bit of a buttoned up field and I just had my image of, well, okay, what does a person working in tech look like was absolutely a man in a t-shirt and hoodie, and I knew if I showed up wearing a suit, like I had to my last job in New York, I would look so out of place. I remember really fumbling with this and it felt so like a fish out of water. Being fumbling with that at age 33, when I was such an experienced professional bringing so much experience to the table, yet I couldn't figure out just what to wear to this interview.
Speaker 1:Oh, you know, a lady actually told me the same thing last week. She said to me when I went for my interview she had the same worry what do I wear? Because she'd retrained and she was going for her first tech role and she, I know I wanted to look cool, so I went in my Star Wars t-shirt. She says I just wanted to look cool. And she said I got the job so it worked. I love that, but it is that that thought suddenly like I where do I fit in with this? What, what do I wear?
Speaker 1:Um, all of those things so important in an interview and we're going to cover some of this today as well about how do you prepare, especially if you've just retrained and that's not a world that you've worked in before and, maggie, if you'd worked in corporate, for instance, in New York, it's a very, very different environment to come over to tech and what to expect. So, um, I wanted to throw out to two ladies to kick off um, what are some key steps candidates should take when preparing for a technical interview? This is something our community worries about a lot when they're asked to go for a technical interview.
Speaker 1:So do you have any key steps that you think candidates could take?
Speaker 2:Oh, I get that question all the time and I answer it from my very limited having actually practiced any code.
Speaker 2:But I go back to what I know to be true from ballet you have to practice and that means going over and over and over what doesn't stay with you and not to do it in a way that like you're going to climb Mount Everest, right, but to take little pieces, small bites, and repeat it and add it to your routine.
Speaker 2:I think this is the big thing as well that I work with with a lot of the people job seekers that I meet is how is it in your routine so that when you are doing your practice, it re-energizes you to do the other things that you have to do in your life, because we all are busy and I can say from the job seekers that I've met, who are women, there's many different hats that you wear during the day.
Speaker 2:So when you're doing that practice, when you're doing that preparation, when you're in the technical mind, how have you set up your routine so that, doing that, you walk away with a sense of accomplishment, right, and that goes back to those bite-sized pieces of what you're doing, of what you're doing, and then that feeds the rest of the day. Oh I did that, oh I spent this time coding. Maybe your whole day needs to go by and coding is the reward at the end of the day. But to really pay attention about, be mindful and intentional about when the practice happens, how the practice happens, and that nothing is going to happen by magic. You actually do have to repeat and practice and also include rewarding yourself yes to to do the hard work.
Speaker 1:You know what I love the fact you compared that to ballet. I took up ballet in my 20s, um, because I saw it as a child and I remember crying and not liking it. And in my early 20s I thought you know what I'm gonna? I'm gonna do an amateur, obviously, and I remember feeling like I am never going to get there because these people, how are they moving this way? And there are no shortcuts in ballet.
Speaker 1:That's the thing. You have to keep it in your routine. You have to keep doing it. And also, you don't realize as well, after a few years, other people were looking at you thinking, actually, you're quite good at that now and you're thinking, no, I'm not, I'm still amateur, I still can't move like these wonderful professionals that are doing it. But they're looking at you like you've come a long way and you haven't noticed the tiny things that you have been doing. And, as you said, just those tiny things in your routine every day meant that actually, slowly but surely, you, you're actually getting there but you have to keep at it and and eventually you get there.
Speaker 1:And you are so right, it's the same with coding has to be routine, has to be part of your every day. Um to to that and you have to be very disciplined with it and also to find what works for you, because I have a lot of ladies in our community say I can't be self-taught and I need a classroom, I need to go to a classroom, I need somebody to teach me, and it's whatever works for you, but you have to find what works for you works for you, but you have to find what works for you. So you keep doing it because, like you said, it doesn't happen by magic and you do have to be very, very disciplined, um to get there, but obviously always, always worth it. Um, maggie, I could see you nodding along. Um, is that something that people have said to you before? Like being part of, of making sure that it's part of your routine, perhaps is a good tip for technical interviews, because then when you get in there, you're prepared for whatever they're going to throw your way.
Speaker 3:You know, some of the best interview training I ever had in my life was when I was in my at UCLA and we had just all different methods. I met with my career coach, but then we also had peer groups and it was just that constant, constant practice. And the first time the interview questions came out of my mouth it sounded like gobbledygook and I was like, oh my gosh, shove it, shove it back in. And actually one of the things we're launching now is the ability for folks to practice some of their early, early rounds of interview questions with an AI tool. I was like, oh my gosh, that would be so much less embarrassing. I love that idea because I still remember how it felt to practice the first time. It sounded like gobbledygook and it was probably so. It was so many more times than I expected. Like maybe on the 30th time is when it started to sound really, really strong and really good.
Speaker 3:And I think people underestimate how, just how much, practice plays a role in interviews. They think I'm just going to go up, go, show up and wing it. Yeah, and I'm mostly talking about behavioral interviews as well, but the case, case interviews to the behavioral questions, where you're just talking about your past in a cohesive way that sounds, you know, objective and smart and, like I, you know, really bringing to life how I did the right things. It takes practice and the practice also helps you get enough distance from it. I do think one mistake people make and again like I'm talking a little bit more about the behavioral interview but one mistake people make when answering a question like a pretty simple, straightforward interview question like tell me about a time when you struggled to have your colleagues agree with your idea and how did you handle that. If you don't have some distance from that, it's going to come out. With all these interpersonal interactions it's going to come across petty, no matter how much you try. And practicing that answer to even something, you know the story, you were there, you lived it. It's a simple story. You know that you did the right thing in the situation. But practicing it helps you sort of delete, delete, delete all of the like well, there was this one guy in Consumer Insights who, god, he was just hard to work with. It helps you just kind of like shed all of those little extras that don't need to be in there that are such an important part of coming across as very professional, very put together in an interview.
Speaker 3:So, anyway, just the idea of just this constant practice and having many different ways of practicing I think is helpful. Sharon knows this better than anyone because she does this every day with our students at Triple Ten. I always say that the MBA level interview prep that I got at UCLA, mba level interview prep that I got at UCLA this is actually what we are offering is on par if not better, which is amazing because it's a very different cost structure at Triple 10. But it's pretty amazing what we're able to do with students in terms of that really deep, deep support in interview prep, not just sending someone you know a PDF you really need, like a person that you're practicing with and if you're not in a program like ours, you just have to pick who that person is.
Speaker 3:Maybe you start with an AI tool and then you transition to you know a close friend that you just you've always admired their ability to come off as professional or to get good jobs and and just ask, you'd be surprised how many people are totally open to having you practice with them and giving you a little bit of feedback. But I would say you should pick someone who you're close enough with and you know them well enough that they are going to give you some feedback. Because that part, the early part of it, is like just hearing yourself say it out loud and you know it's bad. And then there's sort of like the second half of it is refining, and that's when you need to be practicing with someone who's going to be able to give you really useful feedback, to say you know, this came off in a way that you might not be realizing and I would just tweak, like same story, it's your story, but how you're saying it. I would just tweak how you're saying it a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, instead of missing out on that opportunity. You're so right. I've had a few ladies in here tell in our community say, the best person to pitch to sometimes for for an interview is, um, a child, because they are honest and they will roll their eyes if they're bored and they will just tell you. So, yeah, a nice range of people who are going to give you some honest feedback, um can can be really helpful. And I wish somebody had told me that when, when I graduated, because if I went back to my first interviews, I think, oh gosh, you just totally ruin those opportunities with just discard the first maybe five to ten interviews. I ever went on because it does take practice and after a while it starts to dawn on you what they're looking for and you think, oh man, I really could have done with some training in the first few interviews. But you're right, it does take practice and somebody to give you some feedback it's.
Speaker 3:It's a really good point that you almost you need to think of it as a skill you're building. So you need to think of interviewing as another skill in your toolbox that you have to build as a professional. And again, I was lucky to have like an early career experience where I really just like practice that skill. I probably put 100 hours into it my first year in in my graduate program and just an inordinate, insane number of hours into it. And I would almost, for folks transitioning into tech, put on this mindset of like okay, well, how long did it take me and how uncomfortable did it feel at first when I was learning a new skill of learning how to code in Python or learning such and such tool that they're learning for their career. That's about how much I'm going to need to put in to learning how to do both a behavioral interview and a tech interview. I also think there's a mistake that could be easy to make when you're going for tech interviews to like over-prepare for the technical questions in a way, those are easier because they're less emotional and to under-prepare for the like well, tell me about a time you worked with a difficult colleague standard behavioral questions Because you think like oh well, I know my own stories, but those are the almost the harder ones to prepare for, because you actually have a lot of emotion wrapped up in it. And then there's also this dance of finding what is going to be applicable to my new job.
Speaker 3:We have many people come through our program who have been working as a barista I mean, hardest job in the world by far. So many great skills you're picking up in that role and so many folks have made that transition extremely successfully. We had another person who spent eight years working in customer service as well as team management at Target. Again, cannot imagine a harder job. They have very real skills that are applicable, but they need to. You need to find a way to tell that story that's going to resonate with your interviewer and it's your job.
Speaker 3:It's on you as the candidate to show them how this applies to the job. And there's a really great tip to like at the end of it be say it. Just add one little sentence or half a sentence to say how you've envisioned that skill. You know how managing the holiday schedule for 17 part timers in your store at Target is going to be relevant to the type of chaos you're going to be dealing, working at a startup in the healthcare industry doing data analysis for them. That is totally transferable, but it is your job as the interviewee to paint that picture, for you can't depend on them to do that mental work and that mental leap you really want to make it obvious to them, and it's really inspiring when people are able to do that. So I think, just putting yourself in this mindset, this is a skill, just like all the other coding skills and technical skills. I learned that I'm going to feel really uncomfortable at first and have to put a ton of hours into it before I feel fluent in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that and I love connecting, finding a way to connect those skills to transition into tech. I hear that from a lot of parents that people that have been out of the workplace for a while they don't realize all the skills they picked up as a parent. And I had one lady say to me negotiation she said I have a toddler Now. Negotiation is a big skill that I didn't have before. But there are so many skills that you pick up in different roles that you don't realize. And you are right.
Speaker 1:The tech obviously is super important and the technical interview is important. But also employers they want to know things like how you overcome challenges and how you deal with awkward moments between teams and all of those things that you might have learned, especially if you're transitioning into a career. Like 15, 20 years you've been in work already. You actually have a head start because you know the world of work, you know how to navigate all of those things. You're just filling in the blanks with the tech part and that is it. But unfortunately, a lot of career transitioners they don't realize that. They don't realize how valuable they are and how valuable their skills are. So it's great that you know somebody like Triple Ten. He's kind of connecting the dots there like actually you're far more valuable than a graduate who has no idea what the world of work is going to do to them in the first year.
Speaker 2:I think that's my favorite part of what I do on a daily basis is having those moments where someone I think actually I haven't ever worked with anyone who hasn't said this thing to me Well, I come from a non-traditional background. I said everybody I meet thinks they did it the rogue way or the wrong way or the so if everybody thinks that, then there is no one way and, of course, the privilege of having worked with thousands of job seekers is seeing that pattern. But that is my absolute favorite part of my role right now and in one of our events. That's. Another great thing about Triple 10 is the students have access to career coach and career prep materials throughout their course. They don't have to wait.
Speaker 2:And we had a student not too long ago who said well, I don't have any expertise. And I said why is that? And he described that he was 19 years old and he was a parking attendant. And he said so, I don't have any transferable skills to tech. And I said I'm sorry. So how long are your shifts? And he said something like eight to 10 hours. I said so for eight to 10 hours.
Speaker 2:People, without looking at you, are paying much attention. Maybe a Kurt. Thank you. You or excuse me or hello right hand you the keys to a highly technical piece of equipment that quite possibly you've never seen before. You have to move it seamlessly. They're busy having maybe the best day of their life, or the worst day of their life, right at an event space. You have to take it, move it, you climb in and suddenly you have to be an expert on how to move it. You've got how many different technical systems, how many different apps and platforms do you interact with, how many different makes and models of cars, and then, oh, you have to put it somewhere very safely, and then you have to bring it back. And he said, oh, I didn't realize I did all that and that is the joy of what I do Nobody's a blank slate.
Speaker 1:Nobody and the confidence to do that as well I mean, not everybody would want the responsibility of doing that. So yeah, you're absolutely right. Obviously, we get asked a lot about technical interview questions as well. Interview questions as well, the soft skills are incredibly important, but one of our common questions as well, especially on our live events, are about common technical interview questions. So can you share examples of those common technical interview questions and tips for answering them effectively?
Speaker 2:So I have. I pulled a few questions that my students bring back to me, or I should say well, they're students and graduates, because we the great thing about our program is we have people who are job seeking and they're not done with their program yet because they have skills, they've acquired new skills and, to our previous point, they have previous experience and they may be perfect for a role. So that's a joy too. But some of them that I were what are different program languages used in web development? What's the difference between a library and a framework? And my favorite was when a student came back and he said first question he asked me was how does a URL work? And I didn't know. And I said, ok, so what can we take away from that? And we had a good discussion about you.
Speaker 2:Can, I mean you can do a search on the Internet and find top 20, 10, 15, 100 technical questions. You can find technical questions for specific companies, right. You can find the entire interview process for Google or Microsoft out there. Somebody has read it, or YouTube did, or, or right. So we can find this information. But you can't practice all of them and I think people will drive themselves crazy if they think they have to have said each one. So I really like to steer my job seekers to the process.
Speaker 2:There are role oriented questions. If you are a software engineer or if you are a web developer, insert target role here. What is your occupation during the day? What are the categories that you're occupied with within the cycle of the production, and do you know how each of those work or how they're interconnected, even on a basic level, specific duties.
Speaker 2:I have students come back and say they asked me a question about JavaScript and I didn't know it. They're like but it says in the job description that you need to know JavaScript. So you worked on HTML and CSS, but you didn't review what JavaScript is right there. And the other is just basics the basics of how the data structures, what are the algorithms, so that you can show.
Speaker 2:No one should be expecting you to be an expert and you don't have to prove that you are an expert, but you can prove you're an expert in training and that means that you have spent time to know the areas and it's okay, if you don't know something, to say, oh, I am familiar with that. I don't think I have an answer that would walk you through the specifics, but here's what I think. And then to your point earlier, hayley show them your process, show them the way you think about something, because everybody doesn't know everything and technology changes so quickly. We can't possibly all be up to speed on on everything, but we can practice how we get up to speed yes, and an employer picks up on that, on how you get up to speed and whether you're willing to learn.
Speaker 1:I have a lady tell me, um, she learned c++ for her interview and she knew that it was coming up and there was going to be a technical test. She said and I didn't know it at all, so the two weeks I had I learned it. And she said I didn't do very well, but they were so impressed that I had just put myself forward to learn something that they hired her anyway because they said you know what? We're just going to take you because you are going to learn and you're going to learn anything that we throw at you. So you're right, you don't have to know everything, but they want to know that if you're a sponge that they will hire you. Um, maggie yourself, um, are there any common technical interview questions, tips, any, any kind of advice to help with that?
Speaker 3:I think so many times what people are looking for in a technical interview is you know they're asking, like Sharon said, a question might be how does a tell me how a URL works? That's not a highly technical skill, but they're sort of testing like can you explain a technical concept in a way that's going to make sense to almost anybody and truly in a world where you know technical skills are something most people walking into that interview are going to have, one way to differentiate yourself is to really show that you have great communication skills and that you are the person who can talk to the non-engineers in the team and explain things and sort of act as that bridge. And just one thing to note about that most of our graduates and I think this is true of a lot of bootcamp graduates, a lot of people going into technical fields they don't work on a team of 30 developers and that's all they're talking to every day is a bunch of developers. I'll give you an example of when I worked at Hazel health. That was like a small to medium size. Now it's a medium size startup and there was a team of like four or five developers on that team and so much of their job was needing to talk to those of us in marketing the sales team and kind of take in the feature that that team wanted or, in my case, in marketing, the feature that the marketing team wanted to be able to talk about and explain and be able to be that communication bridge. So it wasn't about being able to be perfectly technically fluent in every conversation. It was more about being able to be the bridge and explain things.
Speaker 3:Most of our graduates are going to jobs like that, where they're not going straight to Amazon or Microsoft. They might go there eventually, but they're going into a midsize startup or they're coming from you know we have a lot of CNAs, certified Nursing Assistants. A CNA, you hit a ceiling in your job. It's a great job coming out of an associate's program but, unlike an RN, you can kind of keep moving up the ladder and it's a different career path. Cnas hit a very clear ceiling where they either have to get an RN degree and go back to often that means going back to school or going back to get a bachelor's degree. If they didn't have one, it's a huge time and money investment or they need to find a new career path.
Speaker 3:So we end up having some of our best students, our CNAs, who are needing to find a new path, and then the job that they find with their skills in either data analytics or data science or software engineering are at, then, a healthcare company or healthcare startup, where the whole company is not doing software engineering or data analytics. So a huge part of their job is to be able to be really adept at explaining that technical concept. So all that is to say, I think, when you're answering these technical questions, it's not just about getting it right, it's about showing that you can talk in a way that's understandable to almost anyone, where you're not obfuscating it with too many technical terms actually, which is a little counterintuitive and you're able to, you know, talk to almost anyone about these concepts. I think that's a big way to stand out.
Speaker 1:Definitely.
Speaker 1:I think that's another myth as well about working in IT that you don't know until you talk to people that work in IT that you are not sitting on your own in a basement coding and not talking to anyone all day, and the companies they need you to be able to communicate, not just with your own team, but with other teams as well, and, like you said, you might end up working with a marketing team, or you might have to explain something to a sales team, and they need to know that you can do that, and I think that is one of those myths about working in tech. That's all you're going to do. You're going to be on your own. You don't have to communicate. You just have to ace the tech interview, the technical, the tech um, technical test and that and that's it, which is never the case, um, especially if you want to progress in your career as well, the more senior you get, you have to um, be able to communicate with lots of other teams, and suddenly you move away from the technical side anyway, and then you have to start managing people. Uh, so, um, yeah, so important.
Speaker 1:You have mentioned, though, um. Both of you mentioned um about. You know questions and some. Sometimes you might get a random question thrown at you, like how does a url work? That's quite a random question. So how, how do you, how do candidates handle those challenging or unexpected questions during an interview because you never want to come off as being like I don't, I don't know, you know you kind of need to be more like a politician and talk your way out of it. But what if somebody throws you a curveball? How do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:Oh, I get that question all the time. One thing I say is don't wait for the interview to answer the questions. Create your own interviews. There are, like there are websites. You can use LeetCode Pramp right. You can use ChatGPT right. Ask it to ask questions. But also, it's not just the question, like Maggie just said, it's not about being right, it's about how and it's about the community communication skills, excuse me. So if you are talking to working professionals in the tech field, you are going to be answering those, you're going to be using those skills.
Speaker 2:So, go to events, make sure you are talking to people, not just other job seekers, which can happen a lot if you're job seeking, especially if you're in any type of program but seek conversations. Do you have 15 or 20 minutes to tell me about your experience? You're going to get, you're going to find answers that you don't even know you have, until that moment when someone throws you a curveball and you say, oh, I remember someone said that they had this. I'm going to extrapolate and take that and then what I have and I'm going to put it in here and then you're prepared. So that would be the first thing I would say, and the second is be honest. So if you don't know something, don't try to say you know something, like I said, people don't. That's not going to help. And if you were in that job, how would that help? That would not help that you tell a client something with information that you don't have because you didn't have it. So in the moments that you don't be honest, take a breath. I find a filler. That is a great question. Slow your heart rate and your brain down and all those voices are going right. Tell those to be quiet and say it's interesting.
Speaker 2:So here's, here are my thoughts on that, and give them three different ways that you would go in answering that question. Show them what you're again. Go back to the process. What's my process in answering that? Or say I'm not really familiar with that, if I'm, if I'm not mistaken, that would belong to this category. So I would follow this and show them how do you apply, because that's what the role is. Take the existing knowledge that's out there and answer questions that nobody has the answer to, because it's a new thing and somebody just came up with it. So show them your ability to apply knowledge that you do have and to ask to, to, to demonstrate in a structure that someone else can understand and then identify how it is.
Speaker 1:you would get that information that you don't have and where you would go get it yeah, I love that and, being honest, maggie, I can see you nodding along with just being honest, because sometimes people will go down completely the wrong route, especially in an interview. You don't want to give the wrong impression, but you're all right. Sometimes, especially in tech, it's finding a way around that challenge, whatever it is, because we don't always have all the answers to everything anyway. But, maggie, do you have any tips for that? What if somebody does throw you a curveball question in an interview?
Speaker 3:I was just doubling down on.
Speaker 3:Be honest about what you don't know, because the tech space is constantly changing and people who are interviewing you who have been working in the tech space for 10 years, I mean you would not believe the amount of change that we've seen. So we know that tools are always changing. What we're looking for is your ability to learn. Folks may actually ask you something on purpose that they're pretty sure you don't know, and so being honest about you know I don't know that, but here's how I'd go about finding out I think is such an important thing to demonstrate, because you may have all the perfect skills today. Those skills, I mean we're in this land of AI is coming in. We don't. Even folks who are deep into the tech world still don't really understand exactly how much this is going to change technical jobs. We're all still trying to figure that out, and so being able to say like I am willing to admit when I don't know something, because pretending you know, like Sharon said, very dangerous in a technical way, yeah, I'm not used to anything.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of trouble.
Speaker 3:Yes, so being able to admit what you don't know and talk, speak to how you would find out, I think is really important. And another tip is think about what skill, Okay. So if someone asks you that I'm going to use this example again, the question of you know how, explain to me how a URL works, and you just draw a blank, You're like that's so simple. I never would have even thought to think through that or prepare that type of question. Um, what I like to do, especially now that I've been on the other side of the interviewing table, is spend just like 10 seconds thinking about what are they trying to get at with this question? What skill are they looking for? And so if you are drawing a complete blank on this, what you can say is you could speak to the skill and you can say, oh gosh, that's such a great question.
Speaker 3:You know, something I pride myself on being able to do is explain technical concepts in a simple and straightforward way to those who might not understand them. So I'm drawing a little bit of a blank on this question. If you could give me a second to think about it, I want to think through it, but I do want to make sure to emphasize that. You know, here's an example. You can pivot. It's a very politician move. You can pivot to like you know, gosh, that's such a great question.
Speaker 3:But I have this great example from my recent job where, you know or it could be from your bootcamp, where, you know, I was doing this externship project with a group of students and a hugely important part of this project was for me to explain to the folks at the company we were doing this project for some really deeply technical terms, and so here's an example of something that I explained really well to them.
Speaker 3:So you can pivot to like okay, not sure how to answer that crazy question, but I know I have this skill and I know I have a great story to demonstrate that I have this skill as an interviewer. I would be so impressed with that Because I know that I'm asking them a question that's meant to throw them off, so for them to show like I'm able to think on my feet and pivot, and like I do have this skill you're asking about. Even if I'm not going to nail this question in the way you were expecting, I would walk away, being so impressed by that question yeah, instead of just shrugging your shoulders and going I don't know.
Speaker 3:I don't know, that's never a good um, that's never, never a great way to go no, or?
Speaker 2:or freezing like a deer in the headlights, because and that can happen, even in a situation where maybe you're doing a, a whiteboard challenge, or there's you're actually like in the process of coding in an interview, then if you can't think a lot of times, what people do is they just freeze. There's something going on in your head and that's what they're after. What is the process? We all encounter something that we just don't know. But what do we do? Do we start asking a bunch of questions? Do we actually come up with three different possibilities for the pathways and then test which one we're going to spend the time on, and then they get to see what are you going to be like sitting on the team? Are you going to be sending DMs? What do I do with this? What do I do with that? Are you going to say, okay, I know I spent some time. I still don't have a place to start. I just want to make sure this is my instinct, right? That's what they're after, what's your instinct?
Speaker 1:So I think that's absolutely right Boggy, Just run and check out entirely.
Speaker 2:Not for me.
Speaker 1:Yes, just run and check out entirely.
Speaker 2:I definitely admit to that. I will say first I have an inner scream, then I pause and then I start to think, ok, what would I do? If you know, if this is really something that was happening? What would I do? I know I need an expert. I know I I need expertise, I know I need a plan and I know it's my job. So this is how I would approach the situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, um, and and that leads us on to strong impressions, uh, which I was thinking. You need to leave a good impression, obviously, in your interview, but what about after the interview, the post-interview follow-up? How do you make that strong impression? Because you can, it's, it's a fine balance. You want to send something, but you don't want to send flowers to their home address or anything weird. So how do you make sure you stand out, but, um, don't freak them out at the same time I actually write a thank you note before the interview nice.
Speaker 2:I write the thank you note of the interview that I want to have, and then I know what I'm looking for during the interview. So then I know I have to pay attention to what this person is teaching me, because I want to include in my thank you note what I learned about them, about the career, the role, the company, the mission, whatever it is I want to include. I want to let them know that I was listening. I want to let them know that because of them, I walk away with value and I also, ideally, would like to include something of value back to them. So you mentioned something we had a discussion. I mentioned my mentor in college. Here is the website that explains who she was. She's actually the national treasure of her country. I thought you would find it interesting, right. But I work backwards. I say success looks like this. So in order to have success, I need these things. So now it's like a scavenger hunt and I make sure that those things happen or that I find them.
Speaker 1:That's a really good tip. Yeah, because you're right, interviews as well. They do work both ways, and a lot of people go in thinking this is very much the, you know the employer grilling me on whether or not I'm good enough. But you do want to take something away yourself and figure out whether or not that company is for you anyway and whether their values align with yours. Um, and all the other things. When, when you choose to to interview with a company, um or not, um, maggie yourself, is there anything that you think can help with post interviews?
Speaker 3:I just will agree that writing a thank you note is still a good idea in this day and age. It definitely makes an impression on me as an interviewer, but the only change from when I started my career to now is send it soon. Things are faster now and people are making decisions really quickly. I can't tell you how many times I've received a thank you note from someone I interviewed after just a day or two, but our decision had already been made and it almost makes a bad impression at that point and so same day would be the best practice. It always feels a little I like the idea of writing it ahead of time, but it always feels a little weird. If the idea of writing it ahead of time, but it always feels a little weird if you get it within 10 minutes afterwards, oh, I don't send it, I just yeah, there's definitely a sweet spot of getting it like an hour after the interview, two hours, three hours, end of day that same day, especially if I know I interviewed someone who's working in a full-time job. That sort of just feels exactly right. The next day would be fine. Beyond that, it's almost like if you didn't do it by then, maybe don't send it and I would also just add another change like for modern job searches is you can also send a LinkedIn message, especially if you know. You talked in the interview about having like oh, I looked you up on LinkedIn, your background's really impressive, or something like that, because sometimes it can be hard in the in the shuffle of technology these days with all of my I work remotely a hundred percent. All of my interviews are over over zoom. Sometimes the the system that we're using, like we use one called co-meet, doesn't it? Like purposely hides the email address for some reason. So if you're, you know, struggling with getting their email address, people use LinkedIn so much today, so messaging them there is also valid. And remember to ask your recruiter, the HR recruiter, for the email address if you're planning to send a thank you note and ask early so you don't, that doesn't cause you a time delay, but yeah, so that I think. And then putting some. You know if you write it ahead of time, like Sharon said, just adding like one little thing about the interview or one thing that you're excited about for this job.
Speaker 3:As an interviewer, I always want to know that someone is like uniquely excited about our company's mission, type of work or the type of team. I'm always hesitant because people job hop a lot, and I'm always hesitant because people job hop a lot. So am I going to hire the person who jumps after a year? Because a year is when they start really getting good at their job and are more valuable to me as a team member. So I never want to hire the person who's like all right, this is good enough for now. I really just want to take something and it really stands out. If someone didn't prepare for the interview and they do not know what your company does, it really stands out. If someone didn't prepare for the interview and they do not know what your company does, it really stands out. Yes, very obvious when they're hard. Very good point.
Speaker 3:I've been that Do your homework, do your homework. I've gone to the interview about something I wasn't that excited about and I could feel it. I could feel that they felt it. It was very awkward. I could feel that my energy was not where it is for something I'm truly excited about and I could feel it. I could feel that they felt it. It was very awkward. I could feel that my energy was not where it is for something I'm truly excited about and I never get those. I I have a high rate of getting jobs that I interview for and at this stage of my career, and I never get those ones.
Speaker 1:So you can tell as well, there's it's, it's instant with some people you can tell, like you said, maggie, that they job hop, they've never really stayed and stuck around and you can see that journey and that that's a red flag sometimes. And then another one I've noticed is when people are complaining in interviews about teams they've worked with or I have one.
Speaker 1:Yes, I get that a lot and had one lady um say to me in a past role and she said to me you know, I I actually I've never had a manager that I liked. So now I'm moving into that position, I'm going to implement the things that I wish I'd seen in my managers. And actually it was a red flag because I thought so you've been in work a while and you haven't got on with any of your managers.
Speaker 1:Surely there was someone, so perhaps it's you and just any kind of negativity about your past or where you've been Also just a really big red flag. And I don't know if I mean. This question was about the post-interview follow-up, but I suppose also if you get a rejection, I've had people from previous companies as well who, when I've sent them a thank you so much, but we won't be moving forward with your application, when they come back with a nasty message saying, well, I didn't want the job anyway or I didn't like your company anyway, and you think, oh, please don't do that, because there are some great people that have come through that you would just come back and say you know what, thank you, it was great to meet you. Please, you know, keep me on the list If you anything ever comes up. I love what you're doing, or anything like this. Just don't burn the bridges with employers that you haven't even worked at you know, you just think the is sometimes that I've had back at previous companies where I've gone great well.
Speaker 2:We made the right decision in not hiring you there that's a question I ask all of my students what is your goal in job seeking? Yeah, there's a long pause, no one says anything. I said what is the goal of job seeking? And then someone says, or types to get a job, and I say okay, who agrees with that? And then I say no, your goal is to build relationships. The proof that you're doing a good job is that you get offers.
Speaker 2:So, coming from the mindset of I'm building a relationship with this person, I don't know why I got rejected. Maybe I even got this rejection notice because I've seen this happen by mistake. So if you respond to that with a thank you until our paths cross again, you've got someone you can keep connecting with. They're not always going to work in that role at that company, right, but there's someone you can connect with. So, yeah, I think that's a missed opportunity and a huge red flag when you start hearing the negative talk about. It's like the crazy ex-girlfriend, right, that's it, yeah there are so many analogies between interviewing and dating it is, it is, I love that, I love that.
Speaker 1:Um, again, it all takes practice. Some other taboos and awkward things that come up obviously around interviews are salary negotiations. So how should candidates approach salary negotiation without feeling uncomfortable or unprepared? Do you have any tips for that, eva?
Speaker 2:That's. That's a huge one with me. I I'm always surprised to find that negotiation is at the end of curriculum and the end of any job seeking conversation, because negotiation starts as soon as you open your mouth. Whatever the get-go is, however that gets got. That is where negotiation starts. Because if you are clear in what you bring again back to our conversation of I've only been in the tech industry for a few minutes, but I have all of this, or I've been a parent for all of this, navigating all of these different things If you're clear on that story from the get-go, other people will be clear.
Speaker 2:And then, when you get to the moment that they say, well, how would you like to be compensated for this, you can with confidence say whatever it is that you want to say, and I highly suggest you do research so that it's grounded in reality.
Speaker 2:But that, to me, is the thing that trips people up.
Speaker 2:They're worried about the imposter, I'm not good enough, I'm not, so then the words can't come truly out of their mouth.
Speaker 2:But if they know that and they know that the interview goes both ways, to your point, kaylee they know that they're building a relationship, then they have the groundwork to say so I did my homework and I see that in this region and in this role, the average person makes this to this and in this city I bring this skill set and I would be comfortable with this range, knowing that whatever you anchor as the bottom is what they're going to hear, right, yeah, but if, for some reason, and to include that you're negotiable, and then also to your point to come back and say what's really important to me is this company's impact, yeah, and, or you can totally circumnavigate it. And when someone asks you what your salary range is, say, I'd really like to know more about the role before I come up with a number on that, because I need more information that shows them that you're thinking and open to negotiation as well. But I would say definitely it goes from being clear with what you bring to the table.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that. And you are right, it shouldn't be at the end. A lot of the time it is at the end, and it is one of those awkward conversations where, particularly as women, we tend to always undervalue ourselves as well and always go in at the lower end. So you're right that the lower end of your bracket is usually what they're going to go with. So that's a really good tip to remember as well, maggie. They're going to go with. So that's a really good tip to remember as well, maggie yourself any advice on salaries and how you negotiate that.
Speaker 3:My only advice is, if it's not listed in the job description or even if it is, to have that conversation with your very first phone screen, because that's what typically in most companies unless they're pretty small that phone screen is going to be an HR recruiter who has these kinds of conversations every day. It's not emotional to them, it's just very straightforward. They're like this is what the job range is and just confirm that like it's even within the world of possibility and if it's not be really honest with them. So if you're off from that range by 20, 30, or God forbid $50,000, do not go through the whole interview process and then tell that to the hiring manager when they're giving you an offer. It's going to be disappointing for everyone all around, even if they did hire you. It just starts you off on the wrong foot. I've seen an example of this happening where somebody was like just asked, asking for like 40 more, $40,000 more than what the job was paying and that's or it can also be in percentages, like you know 10% more, 20% more, 30% more. When you're in like the 10% more range, that might be within scope once you get to like 20%, 25% and above. They just haven't budgeted the role that way and it's okay to.
Speaker 3:I've also seen examples where someone mentions that to the HR recruiter right, right away, like at the end of your HR phone screen, assuming it went fairly well. At the end of that you say, hey, I just want to double check on the salary range for this. And that's when you can have like a conversation and then they can give that hiring manager a heads up going into it and they can kind of be your advocate. They can say like hey, I know you and I were like trying to figure out the right salary for this role. Anyway, this is a really great candidate. I feel really strongly about them. Take a look at their background, decide if you want to interview them, but just know they're going to be more expensive because people will change their expectations for the right candidate. But I can't emphasize enough they need to know that upfront before they bring you all the way through this interview process, because it's a huge time investment on their part as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and you get to the end and you, and even if you haven't been honest about it, um, well, they, they didn't um start conversations with that early enough. It's kind of like you get to the end and think, well, that was a complete waste of time, um, because we don't have the budget to consider you, but, you know, maybe in several years time, um, but sometimes it is an awkward conversation, but something that you just have to bite the bullet and say up front and that you are open to negotiation, obviously. What about mistakes? What's one common mistake candidates make during technical interviews and how can they avoid it? Saran, you mentioned about sometimes people kind of give that I'm not good enough, and that imposter syndrome, and and all of that is that you know that, along with something else, what? What are those common mistakes that people make during technical interviews?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, imposter syndrome is big thinking that. That thinking that you're there because someone's expecting you to know everything when the truth of the matter is. If you're there because someone's expecting you to know everything when the truth of the matter is, if you're having an interview, you're there for one reason you and everybody involved have the same thought that you are potentially the best candidate for this role, and that's actually affirmation and confirmation. And I think people miss that a lot. They think, as you said before I don't think you said interrogated but that you're going to be like grilled and it's like a firing line, right, and it isn't You're you're. It is a two way street. So I would definitely say that mindset is is a big mistake Not leading with your curiosity.
Speaker 2:We brought up children before and I think children are a really good cue at this point too. Oh so, and letting people know how it is. You followed your curiosity, so I wanted to know. I was a stay at home mom and my children are playing with these video games and all of a sudden I realized I didn't know what they were doing. And then I wanted to know how does this thing work? And I decided to take a coding class, right, like that aha moment of the curiosity where you went. Let me look, that's what people want to hear, and I think that that's missing a lot, and the positivity that you brought up both of you brought up is absolutely, do not miss that opportunity. Watch the language, and that's why what you were saying, maggie, too, about practicing and everything falls away. Right, you don't want to malign anyone because you don't. The first thought someone's going to have is well, what are you going to say about me on a bad day?
Speaker 2:Right yeah so don't let them see that or what. We all have it, but it doesn't have to be on the outside. Right, grandmother's rule you know everything nice to say, don't say anything at all, right everything nice.
Speaker 1:You say don't say anything at all. Right, um, people have bad days as well. I, some people can interview badly if they're having a bad day. I know, um, I had a girl's interviewing and she followed up afterwards saying I'm so, so sorry. I didn't have a lot of energy because, um, I had food poisoning last night and I was really worried about the interview. So you know it's you have to take things into account as well. Sometimes people have bad days and are they worth bringing back in and talking to them again to see, you know, are they still like that? But yeah, it's a fine line with if somebody is very, very negative in the interview, especially about past teams and managers, I find that as a big red flag.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. You can tell the story regardless of what happened. As a positive, you can name it whatever happened, you can claim it and you can aim it. And I get this a lot with job seekers who either were let go for some reason or had some dispute with the company or in their personal lives. They may have a record or they had a run in with the law and they know that's going to come up and they need to are so worried about addressing it. And there's a positive to to. There's a positive side to telling any story because you're here and you've learned from it. And again back to your point about learning, maggie, that that's the way we want to see. So if you're talking about a situation where you say, yeah, that did not work out. Well, here's what I learned, right, then I understand, oh, you're coming to the table as an adult and you understand that all of us are in that situation. But it's important how we, how we move on and what we do afterwards.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and.
Speaker 3:Maggie, do you think there are any common mistakes or anyone? You know that you tend to hear a lot from from people where you say, oh, actually, maybe you shouldn't have done that in an interview is what you should do in your next one. I'm trying to think, because the main one I would think of is also negativity. It's I, you know, just a couple of years ago, like toxic was the word of the year by Webster's dictionary, and so I'm very realistic that a lot of people are coming from a toxic work environment. I'm really proud that I'm working at a company and on a team where I really don't think we have a lot of that. I really don't think we have a lot of that. However, when it's coming out in an interview, it's just never a good look. It never makes you look good, and that's where practice comes into play. If you're working in a toxic environment or you're underappreciated and you've been working really hard somewhere for years and you never got recognized, never got a promotion, of course the first 10 times you try to tell that story to someone. That's how it's going to come out. It's going to come out, you know, and that's where I would talk about getting distance from the situation and that practice is what really helps you get the distance and doing it with someone else so they can call you out on like that sounded really negative about your former employer.
Speaker 3:I want to know I know that, even though we don't have a lot of toxic managers at our company, I want to know, if someone's joining my team that when they do have a negative interaction with somebody on our team, that their knee-jerk response is going to be you know what. I bet there's something I don't know. I bet I don't know what kind of pressure that person's under or what goals they're being asked to do by their manager on their team. So much of our work is all cross-functional team collaboration or management and I want to know that they're going to respond with curiosity. I want to know that they're going to respond with curiosity, like radical curiosity, and they're going to go to that person and be like hey, I noticed the last time we talked about this topic it seemed like we weren't seeing eye to eye or I noticed you had pretty strong feelings about this part of it. Can you tell me more? I want to know that that's going to be their first instinct.
Speaker 3:So if, even if they're in a bad situation and trust me, as an interview I can tell even if you're being pretty, you know positive about it or framing it in the right way, I can tell that like maybe you're coming up against something that was untenable in your prior job. But if you're able to, if you have the skill to be able to talk about what the positives were in that situation, what you, if you're able to, if you have the skill to be able to talk about what the positives were in that situation, what you learned and grew from it, how you managed it, how you managed up to maybe a poor manager without it coming across as like super negative, like I just got to get out of there, that's a real skill that I know you have, then, and I know that you're going to be able to handle the more mild interpersonal conflicts that we might come across at our organization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that and you're so right. I think it's how you frame that. How you frame that and learn from it obviously is something we've covered a lot in our discussion today. I think as well with people that take career transitions or people that are taking career breaks, finding and we spoke about this earlier how you pitch that, how you pitch yourself, the skills that you learn along the way, why you took that break even I took a squiggly career route at one point because I had a parent that wasn't well and that was more important to me than international travel and not being available all hours and all of those things.
Speaker 1:I decided to move back closer to home and work to be just to be available whenever I needed to be with family. And on my CV I noticed that it looked like I took a sidestep, because I went into an advertising agency and I'd never worked at an advertising agency, and then, when I moved on again, it was actually when I took a step back. The things that I learned at that creative agency and the people that I met there skilled me up for my next role, because if I hadn't have done that, I wouldn't have learned all of those things and I wouldn't have had that time that I needed, and it wasn't a negative. It actually spurred me to my next role, and I think a lot of people, especially ladies, that take a break from work as well, for instance, for family or to become a parent they sometimes see that as a negative, and it's just finding a way to frame it and all the things that you learn along the way, and a lot of parents are very committed as well, and they don't want to be job hopping, they want to get in that job and they want to stay and they want to have that routine, and just finding ways to frame that and find that positive message can really make a difference to how you come across to the interviewer.
Speaker 1:Ladies, I could keep talking to you for several hours on this topic, um. Thank you. We're already at the end, though, but thank you so much. Saran and maggie, thank you so much for taking the time to have a chat today. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you, um, and we would love to have you back at some point. So thank, thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Likewise Katie, thank you. Thank you for everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
