SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Turbo-charging your career as a woman in tech
In this episode, we welcome Sonny Patel, the Chief Product & Technology Officer (CPTO) of Socotra. With an impressive career trajectory that includes pivotal roles at tech giants like Microsoft, Dell, and Amazon Alexa, Sonny brings a wealth of experience and insight to our discussion.
Join us as Sonny delves into practical and actionable advice for women aspiring to reach top executive positions like Chief Product Officer (CPO), Chief Technology Officer (CTO), or Chief Product and Technology Officer (CPTO). Whether you’re just starting out or looking to advance your tech career, Sonny shares her top tips and strategies to help you accelerate your journey.
In this episode, we’ll cover:
- Aspiring to Leadership: Essential steps and insider tips for women aiming to become CPOs, CTOs, or CPTOs.
- Top Tech Resources: Discover the best tools, communities, and learning platforms to turbo charge your career in tech.
- Interview Preparedness: Expert advice on how to effectively prepare for technical interviews and stand out in a competitive field.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing turbocharging your career as a woman in tech. I've got the amazing Sunny Patel, the Chief Products and Technology Officer at Sark Ultra, with me today and she's here to share practical and actionable advice for women aspiring to reach top executive positions like CPO or CTO, or our own position of CPTO. Welcome, sunny. Thank you so much for joining us on Spilling the Tea.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me on. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you for coming. I know you're a super busy lady and thank you for taking the time out to come and have a chat with us. Can we kick off with a little bit of background about yourself, if that's okay, just to set the scene for our ladies? A little bit about you, how you got into tech, kind of a quick overview of whether or not you fell in and how you ended up in your role today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I first of all, when I tell my story, I find it incredible that I've been in the tech industry for the past 20 years. Where has time gone? It just you know, in some ways it feels like I just started recently and in other ways it feels like a lifetime has passed, or many lifetimes have passed. So, to answer your question, my entry into tech industry took on a more traditional route. I started with an undergrad in computer science. This was back when I was in India, back when I was in India. And then I came over to US to do my master's in computer science. And while I was getting my graduate degree at Texas A&M University in College Station, I was recruited by Dell.
Speaker 1:This was back in 2003 on an on-campus recruiting event and that's how I got my first job break.
Speaker 2:Amazing, did you find when you went to the US it was suddenly very male dominated, or was that quite an equal split in those days and you thought actually this, this would be a really good career for me it was definitely a culture shock and, on so many levels, right and from a lifestyle perspective, from getting used to how, um, you know, universities operate, um, so I think there was a lot to get used to, and so there was definitely an adjustment period involved there. From a perspective of tech industry being male-dominated, it is unfortunately. I know we all are aspiring that it would change. It's a long process, even at school, I remember having most of the students in my class being male, and that's something that I have to say, unfortunately, is something I'm used to, not just at school, but then as I went on to take on a full time job at various companies, it wasn't quite uncommon for me sometimes to be the only woman in the room. I think things are changing.
Speaker 1:I hope it changes faster and, and you know, for all of us to feel more supported yeah, and you've stuck it out for the last 20 years and obviously had a successful career along the way. How did you land your current role as um CPCO?
Speaker 2:um, that is a that is a long story.
Speaker 2:So when I look back at how I got to where I did, I can say that I absolutely did not know that this is where I will be 20 years down the line. When I first got started, my sights were always on the next step, each step along the way, so, which meant that when I was doing my undergrad, my goal was to pursue graduate degree in US. You know. So that's what I worked towards throughout my undergrad in terms of, you know, writing the right exams and applying to the right unis. And when I was in my graduate school, my goal was to land my first tech job, and at the time I was focused more on a development job. But I actually got a chance to code and apply the learnings from my school. And when I did that at Dell that was my first role and I was there for two years I set my sights on the next step. So it's always been looking at that next step right and some luck and some happy accidents along the way. And here I am.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you made it and luckily you didn't feel like you wanted to leave as well at any point, which is what a lot of our ladies on this podcast say that they left or came back in or felt like you know they couldn't stick it out for the 20 years. On that note, I wanted to ask you a little bit about perhaps some of the challenges that you found along the way. Perhaps some of the challenges that you found along the way. 20 years is an impressive stint to stay in the tech industry, so I'm assuming you come up with faced quite a few challenges along the way. So what were some of your biggest challenges that you faced and how did you overcome them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, by the way, I have to completely agree with you that that is unfortunately a trend that we see with women in tech is around the mid-career stage is most of them leave. So we see this big I mean already to begin with the beginning of the funnel there's not as many women as men are. But as we move up in the career ladder around the mid-career is where we see a steep drop-off for a variety of reasons. Right so, in terms of facing challenges, right, so all of us do that part, I think, is gender neutral. Each of us, whether we are male or female, is gender neutral.
Speaker 2:Each of us, whether we are male or female, have to overcome certain obstacles as we move up the career ladder. Right, I mean, whether it is not getting that promotion when we think we deserve it or, you know, being passed over for a, you know, juicier project when you really want it or feel that you deserve it. That kind of stuff, in my opinion, happens generally to all people. The one specific one, biologically, that is by definition women-specific is navigating, having children while at work. Right, and in my opinion, that tends to be probably one of the more nerve-wracking times for women to navigate through at work, because, I mean, there's just so much at stake, especially for women who want to stay in the workforce even throughout having children, and which I certainly did. I, by the way, have three children, wow, ages seven, four and one. Oh gosh.
Speaker 1:That's a lot.
Speaker 2:We have a very noisy household and I think that I mean I can get into more details, but I feel, of all the situations that I've hit through my career journey, those times probably made me the most nervous in terms of how to navigate through that through having a child and not letting that derail, you know, my career trajectory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that you you said previously you know a lot of ladies they meet, they reach that point in their career and then they feel like they have to drop off and that you didn't. You know. Did you find yourself perhaps at just companies where you felt really supportive, where you know you could do that and that's fine? You can still have that work-life balance and have your children and still feel like you know there's a great career to come back to and that it didn't impact you. But I'm assuming a lot of that was down to the companies that you've been at at that time 100%, and it's the companies and specifically the people that I had around me.
Speaker 2:So, like I said, I had to do it three times. I think I had great experience two times, not so great one time, happy to share both stories. So you are 100% right that the situation surrounding us plays the biggest role in terms of how supported we feel and also increasing the probability of women returning after having a child. So the first time I had my first time while I was at Amazon and the second time I had my child I was at a mid-sized tech company based out of New York and, funnily enough, my manager in both places was the same person because I had followed him from Amazon over to this other company. Right, one of the biggest sponsors I've had in my career has had such a huge impact on you know, essentially I give them a lot of credit to helping get to where I am Incredibly supportive.
Speaker 2:In fact, one of the things and this was such a gift to me and gave me such enormous psychological safety was when I was planning to join him at this newer company. I had actually shared with him that. Hey, you know, I just want to be open and honest. I am planning to have a second child. Is this the right time? Or, you know, I don't want to come and join and kind of surprise you with news, and his response was sure, he's like I'll work with you anytime, come over, right.
Speaker 2:So, and to have that kind of support and that kind of unwavering, like no hesitation, I have your back, just in my opinion, was, you know, like from an emotional and mental perspective, you know, such an encouraging factor, right, I felt safe, I felt that I'm going to be taken care of even when I'm not at work. I don't have to worry about what's going on, I can focus on my babies and when I go back, I can be refreshed and then hit the ground hard when I go back. Having that support system, yeah, priceless. And and that's where I talk about how the luck factor, uh, you know, I mean sometimes, despite our best efforts, we don't always have those people around us yes, that is true and it's so important when you do find that sponsor, um, and they are there.
Speaker 1:She said that security as well, um, and I always think of a sponsor as somebody that's saying good things about you when you're not around as well, they kind of have your back when, when you're not in the room and they're the person that's saying you know, have you thought of that person for a possible project or a promotion?
Speaker 1:um, and they're just always there to advocate for you. Um, especially if you're taking time at home on maternity leave as well just somebody that's always there to make sure that they name drop you ready for when you do come back as well. So, so important when you do find somebody like that in your career.
Speaker 2:That is a great definition of what a sponsor is. That's exactly what a sponsor does, right. And I think another incredible experience I've had is that each time I went back. So after I went back, after having my first child, I was given the opportunity for the first time to lead managers. For the first time to lead managers, the term that we used for that role was mom manager of managers. So prior to that, I had managed individuals directly, and so then, you know, this was back in 2017. I take a break, maternity break. I take it for six. I utilize the entire time I was able to and I go back, and not only am I welcomed back with open arms, I'm actually given more scope and a promotion of sorts in terms of my role, which was incredible. And the second time, this was in 2019. I had my second child in 2019.
Speaker 2:So when I went back to work in 2020, that is when COVID hit and utter chaos and when I went back, that was the first my team size I think within the next year, my team size essentially, I think, tripled in size, so I was managing at least double, like almost tripled in size. I was managing about 75 folks before I left and when I came back, within a year, I was managing a team of over 200 people. So, I mean, talk about you know coming back with a vengeance, right. I mean that is, I couldn't have asked for better support and you know better opportunities for better support and you know better opportunities. And, like I said, and the way, the reason why I felt that I could just come back and just really get hyper-focused on work was I got that clean break from work where I could just get focused on my newborns at the time, my own recovery, uh, and not have the emotional energy tied with what is going to happen.
Speaker 1:Um, I mean, had to have had such a such a huge impact yeah, which, obviously, with those um two positive experiences, you decided to go on and do it again yeah, I was like, yes, right, I mean, and that's where there is a turn in the story.
Speaker 2:And the third time, and again highlighting back to how, the power of sponsorship right, I did lose my sponsor when I was having my third child. Um, not not as great, no, it didn't feel as supported, and I think um definitely had a huge impact on my well-being. I definitely did have a. I still had supporters and support systems which kept me sane, uh, but I think, uh, in a of ways, I got to experience both sides of it. You know, and you know, ultimately, when I did choose to go back, I just chose not to go back to the same company. I actually, during my maternity break is when I started to job hunt and found this gig at Socotra, which I'm very, I feel very blessed to be where I am today and I can't believe I get to do what I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're right to experience both sides of that fence and then thinking, actually I want to go on and find a company where I feel mentally safe again and to leave somewhere, and that is.
Speaker 1:A lot of companies are not very good at retaining their staff in that way. But, yeah, you had that thought of you. This isn't, this isn't right for me anymore and I need to um find a company culture where where I feel um secure again and I can feel I can can have that work-life balance um, because you experience that which so many of the ladies on this podcast talk about as well when they decide to have families and and on that note, it's quite, it's as we said a lot of ladies dip off at that mid-level um in in their career and a lot of them would like to move up, uh, the the ranks um. Do you think there are any key steps that women should take if they aspire to become, you know, something like a cpo, a cto or you know, a cpto? Um is there? Is there anything that you think that key steps where they can actually get there? If they do remain um in in their career in the first place, you know how, how do they even get there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is where I. So one of the things I did about six years into my career is I always had this desire to get an MBA and at the time, obviously, I mean I computed the ROI of, you know, doing it full time, which would mean that I'm out of the workforce for two years. While I'm sure that would be that's a great, excellent experience for me, the you know, the loss of income didn't feel like the right choice at the point, so I chose instead to do a part time MBA. Right choice at the point. So I chose instead to do a part-time MBA. So I was at Microsoft and I got into the MBA evening and weekend MBA program at Berkeley's Haas School of Business, which meant that and I was still in Seattle, so I had to fly down every weekend for three years, down every weekend for three years. It sounds insane that I did that, although I had. So it's about an hour and a half flight, so it would. It was the thing I did every Saturday for about 100 weekends.
Speaker 2:So I still remember something one of the keynote speakers said when we first started. He said now that you're here, now that you're doing an MBA, don't you know? He's like, I hope you guys didn't join this program thinking that, oh, this will help you become a product manager, right, shoot for something higher, shoot to become the CEO, shoot to join the C-suite, and if that's what you're shooting for, maybe you'll end up somewhere within that vicinity. So I mean, left a mark. The fact that I still remember that and I'm sharing that with you, with you, definitely made an impression. So I had this ambition or desire to make it into this c-suite for a long time, right, and at the time, I didn't know how I was going to get there. Um, and it seems like this audacious, uh, impossible goal, like, and especially when I think of myself, this was back in 2009. You know, but I always knew, okay, that's, that's where I want to be. You know that's where I want to go and all the moves I'm making are helping support that. So I think that that's where the ideation started.
Speaker 2:I would say in terms of what steps, I can only speak to myself. I can talk about my journey. There is no one size fits all. I think each of us carve out our own path and it's based on what motivates us.
Speaker 2:A few of the key things that helped me and I would recommend to women out there who want to move into an executive role is developing an individual point of view. I think that is something that helps you stand out in a lot of these, in my opinion, career-making sessions. Right, because what leaders truly take notice of and appreciate is when somebody is able to one have that clarity of thinking and are able to clearly articulate original ideas to solve certain problems. Right Now, the problem space each of us tackle could be different, right? So what that means for the domain that you're currently working in or want to develop expertise in, I mean, that's something you pick. There are so many resources right Now.
Speaker 2:Obviously, the secret sauce and how do we develop this thought leadership or come up with original ideas, this thought leadership or come up with original ideas?
Speaker 2:We are so lucky that we are in the technological revolution where there's so much information available to us. I read a lot, I mean, you can tell, I listen to a lot of podcasts, you know, I think, listen to people talk and I really think original thinking while we call it original is truly us in our own mind, with our own wiring, remixing ideas that we hear from multiple sources, remixing ideas that we hear from multiple sources. So I actually think, the more sources we gather data from, I think our mind has this incredible ability to put it all together and kind of like our brain is an automatic, you know. Like our brain is an automatic, you know, gen AI producing, you know. So I think that that is key. To be honest, and if I can go back to what were some pivotal points in my career, it was essentially when I made decisions to drive in and when I was given the opportunity, but I jumped on it and drove an initiative and made it my own.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm assuming as well that you, as, as you move through your career, you, you know, you, you read those resources, you'd found your own idea and also you just develop the confidence to be able to talk about that idea and to um, to, you know, to be able to share that with your executive team, for instance. So that takes a long time as well, doesn't it? You can't be thinking as a junior actually, I've read all these things, but I'm really confident about how I'm going to tell the board the direction and confidently do that. Um, that that must have taken a while too.
Speaker 2:Kelly. That is so spot on, by the way. That was going to be my second point is to work, do the work to build a strong inner core that is resilient Easier said than done. It took me probably many, many years to do that, and I think one of the things I find now is, as you move higher and higher up in the career ladder, one you tend to get less and less validation and also less and less feedback. So a lot of the times for you, like you know, there's not as much feedback coming your way to validate whether the decision you're making or the ideas that you're sharing are going well right. So I think, having that sense of I mean you said rightfully so confidence that even when you don't have adequate data points or feedback, you know that you're on the right path. It takes years.
Speaker 2:Some people probably naturally have it. I had to work on it and you're 100% right. I think it just comes from practice. There's no other way to learn it other than naturally have it. I had to work on it and you're 100% right. I think it just comes from practice. There's no other way to learn it other than to do it. I mean, there have been, I think meetings where I fell flat on my face and you know very ouchy, had to pick myself up, dust myself and say oh, what did I learn?
Speaker 2:Let me not make the same mistake again and say, oh, what did I learn? Let me not make the same mistake again. But I think that, along with that being, I think, having the resilience to keep going even when we have some setbacks, and having those opportunities provided to you, I think it's a combination of that.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and I couldn't agree more. And obviously you know you mentioned, um, making sure that you've you've read a lot of resources and that, um, you uh gathered all that knowledge. Um, I love the fact you compared it to AI. You're absolutely right. It's like you're inputting all of that knowledge along the way to grow into your executive role. Were there any specific courses or certifications or resources along the way? Anything that you would recommend to our ladies that might be looking to supercharge their careers?
Speaker 2:I highly recommend I actually recommend multiple sources. So some of my go-to sources tend to be the thought leaders in product management, for instance. They have their established YouTube channels or any of the podcast channels Lenny's podcast comes to mind, jeffrey Moore comes to mind. I think these are very easy to like. I said, I think there are more resources than any of us can possibly cover in our lifetime, but here's my also my recommendation is I mix it up with some of the domain related podcasts.
Speaker 2:For example, right now I do, you know, spend at least a couple hours every week learning about insurance, because that's the space that I'm in right now. I mix it up with keeping up with newer technologies or newer cloud-based development practices, and I spend some time as I can for time to learn about those, of time to learn about those. I like that distribution across multiple topics because oftentimes that's where I think the brilliant ideas come in is that when you mix and match ideas from different spaces, and sometimes I just watch videos about psychology. I also spend all of my free time reading fiction, so I think that it is a combination of all of those sources I think is where the spark of brilliance happens, in my opinion yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not just from one place, but lots, lots and lots of different places. Um, I couldn't agree more. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the interview process, because as you move through your career, obviously that that changes a lot. The interview process is very different, um, as you become a little bit more senior than it is when you're fresh out of university and you're kind of testing the water at that point as well, because you don't really know how to interview properly and it seems to take a few tries before you kind of get that right as well. But can I ask you a little bit about do you have any top tips for preparing for a technical interview? That's something that our ladies ask us a lot about technical interviews. Do you have any top tips for that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that could, by the way, be a podcast by itself. So the first thing I would say is that interviews need a lot of preparation. I think I made a fatal mistake of walking into an interview very early in my career and thinking I'll just charm the interviewer and went so badly that I would probably never make life lesson learned never make that mistake. This was, by the way, when I was at Texas A&M and I interviewed for an internship role at Microsoft and so woefully unprepared it was embarrassing, and I think that is. It doesn't matter what level the interview is. There is preparation needed, and especially for technical interviews, I would say, depending on how technical the role is, it could take almost six months to prepare. So it's non-trivial investment in preparation, right, so it's not something that we can, you know, study over a weekend or a week even.
Speaker 1:It's quite interesting to hear that you went into a technical interview really unprepared. So is there a tips for technical interviews where you think you know what this is what you should prepare for?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that most of the technical interviews are broken into three segments, right? So there is a portion of the interview that is focused on asking the candidate behavioral questions based on to learn more from how they have done approach things in the past, learn about their past successes, mistakes, you know how they've dealt with them. And there is again so just that section a lot of material online, especially on YouTube, a lot of channels some better, the others um about what kind of behavioral, and there's a standard question bank, uh, and, and I'll approach how to answer that right. And there is another portion, uh, which is focused on coding skills and especially this is a role, uh, like an engineering role that, um requirements development skills and that, in order to prepare for that, you know, there is a lot of practice needed, both from understanding the fundamental algorithms and data structures that are the foundation of computer science, but also, I think, the type of algorithm, algorithmic questions that get asked get very sophisticated and requires probably this is the portion that requires the most amount of preparation.
Speaker 2:And the third portion is system design, and these would be questions such as how would you design an Uber, a system for Uber, and it challenges the candidate to think through how they would set up the design. How would they think about the users, the use cases, how the system is getting used, the scale of it, and then, as you build the system, the interviewer is probably poking to understand how you design around certain roadblocks. Again, significant preparation needed. Uh, lots of material online for that right. So those tend to be, for most of the technical interviews, the three main aspects that candidates get asked questions around yeah, and obviously when you reach the executive level that's very different.
Speaker 1:Is there anything there where you think you know what are you showcasing at that point? How do you?
Speaker 2:showcase your skills.
Speaker 1:At that point, if you're not doing something on a technical level, for instance, like showing you know coding skills, but actually you've reached more of an executive, you're probably going to be talking more about management skills and more soft skills, I suppose.
Speaker 2:I think that one of the key things to showcase and more and I think that this this shows up at every level, I think becomes more important at an exec level is how you approach decision makings. You know how do you deal with nuance and not get too dogmatic about certain beliefs and dig your heels in right. I mean, how do you? And I think that the way to showcase that is to take up examples from your past to tell a story. I think one of the standard formats is a star format, where you start talking about the situation and you talk about the task at hand, your approach to it and what the results are. So and again the more.
Speaker 2:One quick tip on how to approach any of these behavioral questions or talking about your past is to build a collection of examples ahead of time and almost map it to. Hey, this example I can utilize to showcase, for instance, how I made a decision with incomplete data, but it could also be to showcase when I had to deal with disagreement on the team and how I drove, you know, arriving at a decision through that process right. So, having that map of a few key stories and to what scenarios you can utilize them, and practicing telling those stories ahead of time so that in an interview setting you're not looking for words. Super key for that I get. I mean, one of the advice is to use somebody that you can do a mock interview with. I have to admit, I personally get very shy practicing with other individuals, so I tend to practice in front of a mirror.
Speaker 1:So whatever works for you, yeah, great advice because you are right If you're practicing with someone and especially I've had people tell me that you should practice with a child, because they are incredibly honest and will give their feedback. Also, it can be strange talking to somebody that you know or a relative, and you're right, you are very different sometimes. So, um, in front of a mirror works absolutely fine too, unless you want that brutal, honest feedback from a child that you know and also recording yourself is incredibly helpful, because I think all of us feel this way.
Speaker 2:Um, when I record myself and listen to my voice, I feel that is not how I sound in my head at all.
Speaker 1:You know, yes, and body language. At that point you're right Seeing a recording of yourself. I was told years ago that I was interviewing somebody and I was fidgeting and I didn't know. I was kind of rocking on my heel and it was very distracting on the video as well and I hadn't even noticed it was just a nervous thing.
Speaker 2:so, yeah, doing that for an interview, yeah, great advice yeah, and I, and I think that personally for me, I have this bad habit of using these filler words like um, and I probably did that throughout this interview as well, but I found that when I'm not prepared, I tend to use those filler words more often. So it actually works in my own best interest. If you know, I'm repeating a story that I've told before, even if it's to myself, right? So I think that, personally, that's how I've seen the practice help myself.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely yeah, and all that comes down to again being prepared for an interview and yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, I think this was. It was one of those, you know, mistakes I only had to make once. I wouldn't have it again one of those life lessons.
Speaker 1:yeah, um, we are almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you quickly how can women in tech develop their own thought leadership and make an impact in the industry you spoke a little bit about? You know, when you become an executive, finding your own voice and that's what your team are looking for, as well your management board and your stakeholders. So how can women in tech find a way to develop their own thought leadership, to make an impact?
Speaker 2:own thought leadership to make an impact. Yeah, and I think that this is what makes us all so unique and makes the value we bring to the table so unique, and why, in my opinion, you know some, we thrive in certain places and we don't, right, I mean, the exact same person could be enormously successful in one company and crash and burn in another. I go back to one of the Amazon's leadership principle call, which says leaders are right a lot, and that is, in my opinion, and that is, in my opinion, both a key skill to develop as a leader as well as a key measurement to measure a leader's effectiveness, and it's something that I ask myself am I more right? It's impossible to not be wrong, but am I more right than I'm wrong? And that's how I know, and I think, in order to be right, is where that developing that thought leadership comes in right. So the only way to develop it and call it thought leadership, call it judgment, is by going through certain experiences, and I think at this point, for example, I have some strong opinions about how I approach my team's performance.
Speaker 2:I have strong opinions about what kind of organization structures I think are more effective, right, and I would call these strong opinions weakly held, because while I hold those opinions, I'm also open to being persuaded to change my mind with the right data presented to me. And ultimately that is a role I'm in. I'm going to make some calls and if I'm right and I'm helping the company be successful, then keep me and reward me. If I'm wrong and turns out that I'm more wrong than I'm right rightfully so I should be fired. So I and I think that I would not be able to make those decisions or have that conviction in my decisions had I not gone through all the experiences good and bad experiences that I've gone through to my career right. So truly I think that's been the journey right. I don't think anybody. It's realistic to expect anybody to, right off the bat, be an amazing decision maker.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, definitely, and something we sound is podcast a lot.
Speaker 1:A lot of the ladies on here.
Speaker 1:They say when they step into leadership for the first time, they're expected to have all of the answers and to know everything, and they wish that somebody had told them years ago that you, you don't have to know everything straight off the bat and that just because you've stepped into a leadership position doesn't mean that suddenly you have to know everything. You still have your team there that you can turn to and they're doing you know the day-to-day, but you're right. It gets to that point where you get to that level where you know you should be making the decisions, and you do know that you are right about making those decisions because you have more experience as well over the rest of your team. So you know you should be making them with conviction, um, as, as you said, um and that is a confidence that takes a very long time to to build um from, from life's experiences, as you said, good and bad um, and, by the way, I do want to second what you said, kelly, I think, right on having the right people around you.
Speaker 2:Probably is, you know, the number single most important factor to determine whether you're successful at this point.
Speaker 2:I have an amazing set of direct reports and I could honestly say I think each of them is probably way smarter than I am, so a lot of my decisions tend to be based on input they're providing me. So I think that would be. Another tip is that do not compromise on who you have around you, right? So I think that if the people who are around you are better at you than some aspects and obviously I think to balance that out, I do think there are some strengths I bring to the table, but together we are stronger as a team.
Speaker 2:And again, with that lack of, I mean, I had to get to that point where I was secure enough to have these really smart people around me and not feel threatened just because I know that they know way more about a certain topic, and to also have that confidence in my own abilities that you know. While others are bringing value in certain areas, there are a few areas that I bring to the, or the value I bring to the table as well. Right, so you're absolutely right. I think there's no possible way I would know I have all the knowledge or the information to make all the decisions. Uh, I feel the reason why I'm able to do so is because I have such a strong team around me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, really important um to find the right team and to um just be in a company where, as we said right back at the start, that you can um be yourself and and bring your authentic self as well to work every day and be feel mentally happy and stable. Otherwise, um, you know, people find themselves having to go um elsewhere. Unfortunately, um sunny, we're already out of time. I can keep picking your brain on this topic, but we are already out of time, I'm afraid. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights today. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on here and chatting with you.
Speaker 2:Again, thank you so much for having me on. This was fun.
Speaker 1:Thank you and for everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
