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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Keeping women in tech: Stories of departure & return
As the tech industry faces a looming talent shortage, the exodus of women from the field poses a critical challenge. Statistics reveal a staggering 50% dropout rate among women in tech by age 35, exacerbating the need for retention strategies.
In this episode, we delve into the stories of departure and return, shedding light on the journey of Deepana Naidu, an Engineering Consultant, and Aparna Kulkarni, a Consultant, both from Daemon and former tech professionals who left and later rejoined the industry.
Discover the factors driving women away from tech and the pivotal moments that led to their re-entry. Join us as we explore their experiences, challenges faced upon returning, and strategies to empower more women to rejoin the tech workforce.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing keeping women in tech stories of departure and return. As the tech industry faces a looming talent shortage, the exodus of women from the field poses a critical challenge. Statistics reveal a staggering 50% dropout rate among women in tech aged by the age of 35, exacerbating the need for retention strategies. Thankfully, I've got two fabulous ladies from Duma with me today. I have Dipana, who is an engineering consultant, and I have Aparna, who is a consultant. They're both former tech professionals who left and later joined the industry, so we're going to delve a little bit into their journeys today so our community can hear about their wonderful career journeys so far. Welcome ladies. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having us here, Kelly.
Speaker 1:It's a pleasure to have you both on here. We're going to kick off with a few introductions, if that's okay. Diparna, can we start with you a little bit about you and how you got into tech and how you ended up at demon?
Speaker 3:yeah, so, um, for me, I think from a young age I was naturally kind of gravitated towards technology.
Speaker 3:So for those of us who remember the dial-up internet period, um, I was quite young then and you know I kind of loved whenever it went. It went like things didn't go right, because always, seen by the dial-up, it never goes right, it's always slow, and whenever it goes bad I just remember, always I'm getting excited to try to troubleshoot it and try to fix it and and naturally from there, um, in schools and at home, I always seem to be the go-to tech person. Um, however, I grew up in Singapore and, um, the IT in school, in the school curriculum, was not as kind of like prominent, so I did not have many like role models or peers who are pursuing a tech career. However, like, my curiosity and wanting to understand more about technology obviously was always quite huge and I wanted to do something in it. So I decided to pursue a degree in computer engineering and that's how I got into the tech industry. It was through my degree and of course you know I had my, took my break. What?
Speaker 1:did you do in your break?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so actually how I got into my break was also a bit of a story, because it was not really a planned break, um, it was something where, um, I was in working for a major consultancy previously and it was really fast paced and was quite demanding as well, and around the same period I got married, and so it was a bunch of things that you know all came together and, um, I kind of felt I needed a break, uh, and so I thought of taking a sabbatical, you know, to go away, rethink life and career and all that fun stuff, and then to do some solo traveling for about three months. And I got back to Singapore and, you know, very excited, very refreshed, wanting to join the tech industry. However, that happened all during COVID, so the pandemic around that same time, and that basically meant that, you know, things were all disrupted and we had to kind of um start my husband, you know we had to move to the uk for work and, um, for family reasons as well, and so my career break that started three months, extended to about a year and a half. So I found myself a year and a half outside of, outside the industry and yeah, and so how I got into Demon.
Speaker 3:It was a whole like, yeah, it was a long journey as well, but pretty much there is a boot camp organization called Tech Returners. Is um a bootcamp organization called tech returners? So, um, yeah, and so they um helped to kind of put people like myself who've returned. Actually a partner and I were in the same um bootcamp and actually that's how we got into um demon, because demon was a sponsored company with tech returners and we did a three-month a program with them and that's how we got into demon, yeah amazing, amazing journey so far.
Speaker 1:Um, I am interested just to ask you when you were that person, by way back when you were young and you were the person that everybody went to for the tech problems, did you want to be that person? Or, in the end, were you like oh, I'm that person in the family everybody comes to. Um, I quite enjoyed it.
Speaker 3:Actually it gave me my place because no one seems to be interested in all those like silly, like tech troubles. My husband right now he'd be like what's my password? I mean that's not really a tech problem, but actually I feel like I remember your password. I mean it's not a good thing, but there's one person in every family.
Speaker 1:You are that person in yours, um a partner yourself, uh. So you um tell us all about your journey, from the start and then right through to what dipana said. You went through the same boot camp as her as well, so how did you tell us a little bit about you from the start and how you ended up in in tech, and then right through to demon?
Speaker 2:so that's very interesting. Um, and even I did not know that about you. So I also was interested in tech as a child. So I grew up in India and while I was in the secondary school, yes, during the summer holidays I saw a few classes come up which were offering like coding classes and I tried a few and I was really interested in them. And you know, computer science as an engineering course was just kind of beginning and was quite new, but I enjoyed coding quite a lot and I decided that, you know, that was really the only thing I enjoyed doing in school. So I decided to do an engineering degree in computer science and that's how I got into tech, an engineering degree in computer science, and that's how I got into tech.
Speaker 2:I've worked for about like 10 years in India and US and in UK and then I, during the time I also got married, I had children and I decided to take a smallish break, like for a few years to bring up my children. I have two boys and I found, you know, with my husband working at the time, full time, five days in office, and if I were to also be five days in office, I think hybrid or working from home was not so commonplace at the time. Working from home was not so commonplace at the time and I know it would be really challenging for us as a family and be easier if I took a few years break to stay at home and raise them. However, the few years ended up being a longer time. I was, I think, out of the tech industry for over 10 years before I returned back and, um, I think it was.
Speaker 2:I did try to keep in touch at home. I did some online courses, uh, but you know, because there are so many um, like there's just no one technology every day, we use like a whole technical stack and when I was doing courses, I was doing in like one technology or doing certification in one technology, like Java or in Spring, and it would never be enough to qualify for a job. Or you know, during the interview I was always sort of compared with anyone with current experience and obviously I cannot match that. So it really helped when I joined the tech returner course, which is more like a holistic program, and through that I was hired into Demon as a tech returner in August 22. So it's nearly one and a half years and really great to be back. I was just going to say. I was on the same course with Deepana and we joined Demon on the same very day.
Speaker 1:Incredible, incredible, and your journey is still ongoing together. It's lovely when you have people that you join at the same time and you still keep in touch with them throughout your journey.
Speaker 1:Aparna, you said that you really enjoyed tech at school because I wanted to ask both of you ladies about what initially drew you to pursue a career in tech. But um a partner you you touched upon it there was. You said that you liked coding courses at school. Was there, was there a teacher that really inspired you? Was it? Was it in the family that people worked in tech? What kind of drew you towards tech in the first place?
Speaker 2:so there was. So nobody in my family worked in tech until I joined. So we had an introduction course to computer science in school that I really it was very basic background about computer science, what is computers and so on, and that is really got me interested. And then in my own time I attended some courses outside the school which taught like the basics of coding and basic which was the language at the time. You know, when you started coding you learned basic, that how, that's, how far back it was. So that's how I got interested, I tried it and really liked it yeah, dipani, it was yours the same.
Speaker 1:I mean, you said that your, your family, all came to you for tech, tech related problems, but there was there someone at school that kind of inspired you in that direction, or was I mean? A lot of ladies on our podcast say they're, they're not really encouraged at school or they don't feel like, you know, taking a computer science degree, for instance, is is um something for them, because they they don't see that at school was. Was that the case with you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, um, that's definitely the case for myself. Um, so, like in Singapore, is not? We don't really know, we don't have computer courses or anything like that, and I was naturally interested but I didn't really know who to you know, mentor, like at school or at home or anywhere. So it was just like a kind of like a leap that I decided to just go into university and decided to just take this course, only to find out their majority were, um, men, I mean boys, guys like not, uh, you know not, and it was just like three of us were girls. So, yeah, that's when I realized, oh, actually it's not a very female kind of focused um, yeah, degree and those that make it through and then get to, uh, into work.
Speaker 1:They they then realize that that actually can be very different in the world of work. You know, as long as you make it through that educational part and you feel like there are enough people behind you to to get through university, for example, and then make it into a good company. Um, I've had lots of ladies on here say I'm so pleased that I stuck at it and then made it into the world of work it was very different.
Speaker 1:um, both of you ladies have spoke a little bit about your reasons and the decisions to leave the tech industry at the time. I just wanted to touch upon that a little bit more because I've had a few guests on here. When they make big life decisions like that, they share that. It's not something to take lightly. I mean, aparna, you left because you know you had your children and you became a parent and you made that decision as a family unit to do that and I take it at the time for you that that was quite a hard decision to think I need to do that now, but you were probably thinking as well how in the future, how will that affect me in the future? And going back, can you tell us a little bit about you know that time for you and and making that decision?
Speaker 2:yes. So to be honest, at the time I did not think it would be for so long. So at the time it was a temporary decision. It was maybe for a year or two when the children were like, really young and needed more. I wanted to be there to give them more attention and I tried. I was thinking, oh, it would, you know, not be so hard to go back.
Speaker 2:But I have to say that in hindsight, maybe looking for some part-time course jobs even though there were few and far between, Maybe if I'd concentrated more efforts on getting a part-time job, just kind of to keep my experience current and to keep updated on technology, that might have made it easier to come back later. I mean, it's a personal decision easier, you know, to come back later. I mean it's a personal decision and you know there are women who continue to work with little children and that's completely, you know, individual choice. But yeah, it was a kind of difficult decision but I think I had to support my husband to do, you know, what I felt was right for the family and personally. So that kind of made it easier in that sense. But certainly, yes, it is one industry where when you take time off, it's harder to keep in touch when than when you are working in a job.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely and I had a guest on here talk about when, when she went on mat leave and then she decided to take extended um leave after that as well, and I and I remember us discussing how you know, ladies are still very nervous of doing that, and she said I was so pleased when I came back. She actually um went, went back into into the same company, but she said I couldn't believe that gave me a promotion because I thought they was going to see it as I've, you know, been missing for such amount of time. And she said when she had a second child she wasn't as nervous about that. But ladies are still very apprehensive about, you know, taking time out and how it will be seen and keeping up to date with new developments. And it's obviously still a personal, personal decision, as you said up on out that you know you make as a, as a family unit, um, and obviously you know we managed to come back and land yourself a fabulous job, um, so all went fine in the end.
Speaker 1:Um, japan yourself, you said um, obviously you didn't take the decision lightly either and for you, unfortunately, you came back at the covid time. So, um, can you tell us a little bit about that time and you know your your challenges around that time as well. Um, and and what that was like for you. You said you only wanted to be out, you know, for for a short period of time and that turned into a lot, lot longer because of covid.
Speaker 3:Yeah um it was. I mean, I felt like it was a blessing, like a blessing in disguise, um, like looking back now, because it sort of like forced me to really sit down and think of um, because when I got back I was applying for jobs, and you know it was during covid and I felt like, oh, maybe I should just get any job at this time, you know, at this point, because you, you know it's COVID and you know we probably should, I shouldn't be staying out for too long, and you know. But for some reason I kind of it also gave me the space to think about what I want to do, and so I thought, instead of rushing to get a role which was very difficult, to kind of get those interviews and things like that I kind of decided to do a boot camp. So they offered like a three-month boot camp, um, on full stack, um, you know, doing react, javascript, and I've always worked on back-end stuff like java and things like that, and I thought it'd be a great time for me to do something different and, you know, upskill myself but at the same time, kind of um, learn something new. Um, because I feel everyone during COVID period were kind of like figuring out their life and, you know, thinking about things, and I thought I had that, you know, ability. I should probably like go for it.
Speaker 3:Um, and that was amazing for me because, um, the boot camp, you know, I went in just thinking I'm going to learn something new, but it ended up being um completely different, um, in terms of, like, the community I found in the boot camp and the different kind of people, like you know the reason going into tech, some of them were career switches. Some of people, like you know the reason going into tech, some of them were career switches, some of them were, you know, trying to do something different. And it was just so inspiring and, um, you know, we were all together. It was a full-time bootcamp as well, so we're all together, nine to five, um working together, collaborating, um creating something, and and I think that basically made me realize what I love about this industry and what I liked about it, like in terms of, you know, that collaboration side and the creativity side.
Speaker 3:And then my journey then after that was related to basically things around the nature of finding that sense of that similar community, around the nature of finding that sense of that similar community. So, after I completed the boot camp. I um joined a startup, a tech startup. Um, that was um, had this a similar kind of um, kind of um, you know, like collaboration, creativity and all that stuff, passion, um, and and and. Then I relocated to the UK. So then, after, so, after the startup was when I relocated to the UK and in similar sense, I was like that's how I found tech.
Speaker 1:Returners was just basically, instead of just like applying for roles, I was just specifically trying to find um a company where I could actually you know, that aligns to my values and beliefs yes, yeah, nice, and after you found that boot camp and then you found your community, did things kind of I don't want to say get easier for you, but is that kind of where you started to see a lot of those challenges slip away a little bit more because you you'd found a boot camp, you'd found a network, but before then were you kind. Actually, this is quite a challenge to find something to get back in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, because I mean your confidence definitely like kind of sees a bit of a blow because you know you've been out of the industry and you know things move really fast in the tech industry. No-transcript. Well, maybe I need to know all this stuff before I, you know, even apply for a job and you know. So, yeah, it's just, yeah, it's not definitely like something that you know took a lot of, um, hard work to kind of get to that stage, even apply, and then go for the interviews and then kind of get a job. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:A partner. Is that something that you would agree with? I know you mentioned previously about you know, suddenly, when you want to come back into the industry, you know, and having all of those skills that are suddenly needed for jobs in the area that you want to work in, is that something that you struggled with and and I suppose, echoing what Dipana said about, um, your confidence being knocked as well. How, how was that?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely I think, because if you are studying by yourself or even if you're doing courses, what you cannot compete with is someone who has up-to-date experience, who is actually working on a project, and you kind of need some acceptance from the employer to hire you as a returner. And I think that wasn't the case a few years ago. There were very few like returner positions or returner programs, very few like returner positions or returner programs. So it was really hard to then like find the exact kind of combination of technologies that would be enough for a job. And so I think, until the tech returner program we joined the tech returner program, it was really kind of, you know, I had the thing that, okay, I needed to do all these things, but how could I just kind of do it by myself?
Speaker 2:And you know, it's that realization that I actually do need help, and finding that within the tech fraternity program and then being supported by DEMAN through that, I kind of felt like okay, now this is possible. You know of felt like okay, now this, this is possible. You know, um, these are all these other people, uh, who have um in the same position as me kind of gives you confidence to um, it just seemed doable. Um, and gives confidence to go for it.
Speaker 1:um that it can be done and you know you can find your way back definitely yes, and hearing other people share that as well, that other people have done something similar um can can help so many, so many people. That's why this podcast was started um as well to to share stories of people that have have um, you know, lived it and breathed it. And one of our most popular um podcast episodes on here was a retraining in your 30s um, and it was our most popular episode for a very long time where a lot of our community wanted to hear people that had decided to retrain, come back in transition from one industry to another or return um and that you don't have to feel like you have to do it from the age of 21, from university and stay in the industry, because the more people that share that, the better. Like you said, just hearing that people are there and they're supporting you and that it can be done In terms of. I mean, you mentioned you both mentioned tech returners.
Speaker 1:Dipwani, you mentioned a little bit about finding your community. Were there any other strategies or support systems that helped facilitate your re-entry into the tech field? Did you have any other communities or networks that you worked with along the way? Dipani yourself, were there any other resources that helped you along the way?
Speaker 3:um, I think for me it was pretty much the community I just found like different kinds of communities.
Speaker 3:So first was the bootcamp community that I found, that you know, and then it was a startup that I joined after that and and lots of different people in that whole year that just basically helped me to just, you know, help my confidence and help me to even like sit with me doing tech interviews and prepping, you know, for tech interviews and things like that and um.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I think, besides just this tech industry and mostly were women, you know um, funny enough, like um, throughout this journey were, were, like, I think, instrumental in my um, you know, in my yeah, my return back to the industry, because I think in my personal life I do not know many um techies. So, like you know my family, or even my you know my husband we're not, you know no one's like I know who's in the industry, so it's very hard to find it like it's. Of course, there's support in terms of like you know, allowing you to like um, pursue these, that kind of like the boot camp and you know like sponsoring you to go to these like boot camp and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But besides um, that it's just yeah, definitely yeah, yeah, finding a mixture of people within good communities to support you so, so important. And a partner yourself. Did you find a good network to to help you along the way that you really tapped into for support?
Speaker 2:so I had, um, I do have a couple of friends who women, friends who are in the tech industry. So I did, um, kind of did a bit of brainstorming with them. You know, this is what I'm thinking. This is a course I'm trying to do. Do you think it looks good? And, uh, they were very supportive, like, yeah, I'd be so glad that you, you know embarking on this, you really, uh, can do it.
Speaker 2:So I got a lot of support from there and, you know, even along the way, um, kind of in like more moments of self-doubt, I would reach out to her um and say, you know, I don't know if I can do this. Uh, this is hard. And she'd be like you know, no, you've got this and you know that's really good to have that. And even, like my family, when I said I'm doing the course, they kind of were so supportive and reminded me of the other times that I'd faced challenges and they said you know you can do this. So it was very interesting. There was a lot of support.
Speaker 2:I think it helped to share with people that I was doing this course and the feedback was always so positive and kept me going throughout the time, and even my children. They were so excited know, doing a course and applying for a job and going through the whole process. They were, I think, one of my biggest cheerleaders. It was really good to have that sort of see a role reversal where they were like Mummy, how was your interview, how did you do? And the whole. I mean I was really surprised to see how much they encouraged me throughout the whole process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, wow. To have that at home and to have support from all directions must be so invaluable, especially when you have those moments of is this for me?
Speaker 1:Do I have that feeling we talk about it a lot on here imposter syndrome and having that feeling of am I doing the right thing? Will I get found out? All of those? Um? We've had that conversation a lot on this podcast. A lot of us ladies in tech feel that way. Um so to have a good support system, and so so important um, and you were lucky enough to have one at home, which is even better. So we uh touched upon some very depressing uh stats in the intro of this podcast um about 50 dropout of ladies by the age of 35 um from the tech industry. In your opinion, what are some of the key factors that are driving women away from careers in tech and how can these barriers be addressed? Do you think, um dipana, should we start with you?
Speaker 3:yes, definitely um, yeah. So I think for me the biggest, because the biggest um kind of factor I would say is definitely lack of um visible women in kind of senior positions, executive positions. I think um most women that I talk to I think that's kind of like the similar sentiment that they share um, when you don't see women like yourself, um in those positions, it's hard to kind of envision yourself in that position and so you know you don't really um know how to um get there, and I think that can sometimes make you feel like you don't belong in the industry and um and not sure where to go to kind of um get those like um those challenges that you face kind of um talked about or or um kind of helps. Have someone help you out with those kind of like you know um, yeah, like issues. So I think I think that's for me the biggest factor, for sure In terms of like addressing these factors. I think addressing that kind of visible visibility when it comes to women in tech, I think definitely through like mentorship programs. I think companies you know if they can recognize that they want, because there's a lot of companies who are trying to get more women into tech and into their spaces. I think it's important to understand that the women who are currently in their company. They might need some additional maybe support or guidance, maybe some sort of mentor that they could talk to.
Speaker 3:And what I found that really helped me was because Demon actually sponsored me to go to the women in tech event last year, so around about two years ago.
Speaker 3:Um, that was the first time I actually attended a women only um conference and to just go there and see like just full of women engineers and actually speaking to them and finding out that most of them share the same kind of feelings that I do, which is something that I don't really get to my day-to-day kind of working, you know, working life.
Speaker 3:Um was really valuable and I think that that's when I realized that no, actually I do belong this industry. I just belong in a different part maybe, or a different, you know a different kind of like. Yeah, and there are some companies like demon, for example, definitely, you know where they really care about improving diversity and and that's therefore the you know send us to all these live events. So I think, yeah, companies sponsoring women to go to these events, to get inspired, so that they could take away all the learnings they get from these kind of events and bring back to the company and help improve their, the company's, culture. You know, when it comes to, yeah, the women in tech culture in a company, to improve that, I think, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:Definitely yes, and there are some really good companies out there that understand that and just know that if they've got good talent and they've got good women in tech talent, that you have to retain that and you have to make an effort to retain that as well. For instance, sending you to, um, women of silicon roundabout, uh, which we attend as well. It's a brilliant conference. I totally agree with that, um, that you get to meet lots of other ladies that are, you know, in the same position and you hear their stories and you think, thank goodness it's not just me that feels that way, um, but yeah, be lucky enough to to have been invited along to see that and see other ladies that are in similar positions doing similar things and to inspire you as to what, as well as to where you want to go next, um, what position you want to move into next, that give you lots of good ideas. Um, a part of yourself, what? What do you think are some of the key factors that are driving women away from careers in tech?
Speaker 2:I think I agree with everything Deepana said 100 percent, especially about having mentors.
Speaker 2:The other thing I find is, you know it's just one of the reasons that forced me, or kind of pushed me, to take a break is, you know, when not having flexible working I mean it is changing now, but you know, if you're having being in the office all five days for both the partners would be hard, I think, on both the parents.
Speaker 2:So definitely that is one reason I think a lot of women do end up taking career breaks and then returning back could be challenging, as I found. But what it would help is, if you know which we have a lot of it now, especially post-COVID, which is hybrid working and flexible working, as well as options to work from home, remotely, because, even though things are changing, for most people women are the primary caregivers of the family. So you know, to have that little bit more flexibility, to have a work-life balance really helps in terms of hybrid working especially, and I think it needs to be offered to both the parents, because you know it's not fair to expect the women to work flexibly and look after the family, but it would also need the other partner, the father, also to be able to do that, to be able to support his partner, and then, you know, together they both can thrive in their careers. So I think for me, in addition to everything that Deepana said, flexible working, hybrid working, is really important to retain women in technology.
Speaker 1:Definitely and a few guests that we've had on this podcast have said, when they became parents and they were offered flexible working, they actually became very loyal employees because they thought you know what I'm at a good company that is making sure that I have a good work-life balance and actually they stay around for longer. It's not like hiring, perhaps, a graduate or someone that's been in work a couple of years and they might job hop. A parent that is offered, you know, flexible working will stick around and think you know I'm going to be here for some time because I've landed myself in a company that allows me to have hybrid working, for instance. Is that something that you felt? You know I've got it good and I've got what I need to be a good parent and to have a good career yeah, totally, I completely agree with.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, flexible working would be the top of my list in my current job. I mean, especially with Demon. We have flexible, hard working. We have also have hybrid, for it's a remote-first company. So you know, and even on the days, that if you do have a meeting in the office you can always schedule it around any other life events if it happens. So that's very important and I've seen that even with my friends, they have chosen to stay in their current jobs largely because they feel that they needed the flexible working and that is something that they cannot compromise on.
Speaker 2:Yes definitely agree on that.
Speaker 1:People want to stay put and again, good companies just knowing how to retain good talent. We've touched upon this a little bit already, ladies, but I wanted to ask you a little bit about what you think the tech industry can do better to support and retain women in their careers, and Dipana. Actually, you both touched upon mentoring programs. I suppose that's one area that can help and retain women in the tech industry and Dipana. Is there anything else that you think the tech industry could be doing better to support women in their careers?
Speaker 3:um, I mean, apart from mentorship, because I think that's something that personally I do like feel um that you know, when I talk to like women, you know I think that's the biggest thing, but apart from that, maybe, um, I think when it comes to there are great conferences and you know, women in tech only conferences is great, but um, like, sometimes I feel like um, it's always like centered around like if we, if you go to women tech conference, you're going to meet women in tech, but comes to other it industry events, sometimes you might not see that kind of representation. So, for example, if you want to go to a, you know like a particular technology conference, you know you might not see that representation on panels or you know things like that. So, just kind of like the industry being aware of, like the importance of putting women on these panels and and in these, um, kind of um, yeah and yeah, really help believe yes definitely.
Speaker 1:I completely agree with that. And um, there is still that conversation around you still see it on social media where somebody will um send out a picture and say you know what? This was an all-male panel. Did the organisers perhaps consider a female on this panel? Thankfully that is changing a lot, but I agree there are still lots of tech conferences where perhaps they haven't considered diversity in their speaker panels. So you're right, just companies being a little bit more aware of representation on their panels is a really good point. Apana yourself, do you think that there's anything that the tech industry could be doing better to help retain women?
Speaker 2:I think one of the things I've found is there are a lot of interesting talks happening but a lot of them are after hours and I think it would be more convenient, it would be maybe improve attendance from women if these were more held during working hours, I think, to be able to attend them. You know, after all, it is related to work. So, again, going back to the point about being the caregiver of a family, I think attending after work talks and things, I think they are scheduled after work so that people can complete their work and attend. So it's kind of I personally would feel I can participate more if there were more of these talks held during business hours.
Speaker 1:Definitely. Yes, that is such a good point, and I remember speaking to a few female politicians who said the same about working in their industry as well, and why is it that all of the events are held after work? And they said that more of us in politics would be going to these events if they were held during the working day. But I agree, I just think that's an issue in lots of industries as well, where perhaps companies don't quite consider that. You know those that are caregivers, whether that's children or they're caring for for somebody else. Could you know, really do with going to the events in their working day instead of afterwards? And you're absolutely right, that's a really good point.
Speaker 1:Um, ladies, we're nearly out of time and I just wanted to ask you, as two ladies that have have done it and come back and have been successful in returning to the tech industry, what advice would you give to women who are considering returning to the tech industry after a hiatus? Dipana, should we start with you? Do you have any advice of what you would give? Anything you wish someone had told you of?
Speaker 3:you. Do you have any advice of what you would give anything you wish someone had told you? Yes, definitely. I think for me, the biggest kind of advice would be if, when you're returning to tech, to be really careful about the kind of job opportunities that you consider. I think it's important to choose an environment that really celebrates and values you as a returner, because if you join a workplace that doesn't understand your value because as a returner you have different, you're more experiences in different areas that could be really valuable for the company and so if you were to really be careful with that, then I think it would really help with your success in your new role.
Speaker 3:And I think the next thing, of course I mean I've been touching a lot about the community. I think finding a community is so important. Don't feel like you have to do it on your own. I think lots of great communities around and actually one of the great things with the industry, there are lots of great communities coming up in terms of, you know, returners for returners, for women and to join those communities and actually have them help you in your journey back into tech you in your um, in your journey into back into tech.
Speaker 1:Yes, I you know what. In your first point, now I completely agree as well with uh, being careful about where you go and, um, I imagine when you're coming back in as well, it can be you might be thinking you know what, I'll just go wherever it's going to take me, and and that you know then then that will move me on to the next one and the next one. But actually if you move into something too quick and, like you said, they don't align with your values, that could really crush your return into the tech industry. You can really make you think, oh, actually, maybe this wasn't for me. So, yeah, great advice to be careful about where you go when you do return and to make sure that that really cements your journey now you're back in the tech industry. Aparna yourself, do you have any advice for our ladies on? You know something that you wish you had been told before you started your return?
Speaker 2:So I would say that you know this is like a really great time to consider returning back. I think the industry recognizes the value of tech returners and you know there is more acceptance and support than it was some years back, so it's really a good time to consider doing this Again. Like Deepana said, you don't have to do it alone. You know there are a lot of support and programs available out there that can help you. Secondly, you know you need to own like which is what I found out it's the need to own your break. It's nothing to be shy about. You know it's completely okay to do that and then head back and kind of don't give up. It's not necessarily an easy part. It'll be harder than it is for someone with experience, but then you know this is really a good time to do, to try for it and to just keep applying and finding till you find the employer who is the right match for you.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that. Own your break Brilliant advice instead of shying away from it, and also all the things that you know happened to you during that break and all of the other life experiences that you took on whilst you were on your break as well. And then returning to the tech industry that is brilliant advice. To end it on upon an own, your break as well, and then returning to the tech industry that is brilliant advice. To end it on Aparna on your break, because we are already out of time. Ladies, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you both today. Thank you so much for coming on, sharing your journeys. We would love to have you back at some point to tell us how you've been getting on, but thank you so much, ladies. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 1:Thank you for everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
