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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Mastering mentorship: Making the most of your mentoring relationships
Whether you're just starting out or looking to refine your current mentorship dynamics, this episode is packed with practical advice and personal anecdotes to guide you.
We catch up with Beatka Wójciak, Founder & CEO of Chaos Cookie, to explore how to:
- Define Your Goals: Understanding what you want from mentorship is key. We'll help you identify and articulate your objectives.
- Find the Right Mentor: Choosing a mentor can be tricky—it's like picking the right pair of glasses. We'll discuss why a mentor perfect for someone else might not be right for you and why it’s important not to ask friends, coworkers, or bosses to fill this role.
- Understand the Role of Mentorship: Mentorship isn’t therapy, though it can touch on mental well-being. We’ll clarify these boundaries.
- Prepare and Follow Up: Effective mentorship requires preparation. Learn the importance of bringing and reviewing notes, both before and during your meetings.
- Recognise When It’s Time to Move On: All mentorships have a natural expiration date. We’ll talk about how to recognize when it’s time to move on and why it’s okay.
- Own Your Journey: Ultimately, you need to do the work. A mentor can guide you, but the effort must come from you.
If you'd like to hear more on this topic, join Beatka & Federica Nocerino, Passionate Marketer, Inclusivity Advocate & Women in Games Ambassador, on our exclusive community webinar. Beatka and Federica will be delving into the essentials of maximising your mentoring relationships, discovering your life's passion, and navigating the transition from graduate to junior professional.
Register here
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Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing mastering mentorship making the most of your mentoring relationships. Whether you're just starting out or looking to refine your current mentorship dynamics, this episode is packed with practical advice and personal antidotes to guide you. And I've got the incredible Biatka, founder and CEO of Chaos Cookie, with me today and we're going to dive into this topic further. Welcome, bianca. Thank you so much for joining Spilling the Tea today.
Speaker 2:Hi, thank you for having me. It's really great to share my experience and how things have been going on throughout my career. So let me maybe tell you a little bit more about myself. So found it chaos cookie, which is a cozy game studio, um, a few years ago, um, and initially it was just a side project of mine while I was working full-time as a software engineer at google, uh, but I've always had this really great passion for connecting design and science and seeing if I can bring people together through this and give them a little bit of a moment of break.
Speaker 2:And this is how Kioski was born, a game studio that makes cozy games, basically, and we released our first game, called Squalix, just a few months ago, and we're now working hard on it and growing the team, um, and yeah, like I mentioned, my background is in software engineering and I was working at google for seven years before going to on um on the entrepreneur journey, and I think one of the most, uh, impactful things that I've ever done throughout my career was mentoring people who were early on in the journey, because I very strongly feel that I got a lot of support from people throughout my career and throughout my life, and it's only fair to give back to community. And, yeah, I just find mentoring one of the most rewarding ones, because you literally see the person grow and you see them develop and just overcome obstacles that I thought were impossible to overcome initially.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that. I love everything that you just started with there. Oh, it's actually one thing I just wanted to point out. You said that you loved and wanted to connect design and science. They sound very different. They sound kind of what you would stereotypically think as creative and then kind of not creative STEM subjects like science. But actually that's one of the myths that we try and bust on this podcast that working in tech can actually be very creative. So I take it that is that something that you kind of found at the start, and then you thought you know, I want to combine creative and science.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So creative and science, yeah for sure. So I always liked drawing, ever since I was a child, but it was kind of one of those things that you do as a hobby because it's not a real career, you cannot really make money of it, things like this and, um, well, luckily for me, I was one of those kids that's always liked computer science. So I started programming really early on, when I was around 15, which was quite a challenge back then because it wasn't as easy to get programming resources and, yeah, it was like a journey on its own, to be honest. But yeah, like, I've always had that like, oh, like science and computers and art don't mix, and I just never really liked it.
Speaker 2:So I decided for my career to pursue computer science and then later on I realized actually they are the same thing because, um, obviously I cannot pick up other parts of engineering like chemistry, biology, but I imagine they are also created field because in, in software, um, yeah, you have some things which are a bit more math based. But, to be honest, to come up with a good solution, you really need to be quite creative and you need to see things outside of just a to b. You need to kind of look around and kind of see things in context and and I'm glad that I discovered that and also, obviously, games are like the ultimate connection between arts and science, because you do have the programming of games, but they also very art heavy and in different styles of art, so you have both graphics and music and all of this just blends together, which is great.
Speaker 1:It's a cut for me, yes, and so please do come on here to share that and what your career is like, because a lot of our ladies, I think, they worry that you're going to tech and it's not a creative career. And it's almost like the people that work in the tech industry. It's like, why is it a hidden secret almost of working in tech but it's not going to be creative? So thank you for sharing that with our ladies.
Speaker 1:So we've got lots of bats in terms of mentorship and you mentioned that is something that has been really useful to you along the way and something that you really wanted to give back as well when you go into that position where you could be able to give back to other ladies as well. So can we kick off, with what process do you recommend for mentees to clearly define their goals for a mentorship relationship? Because it can be difficult for a mentee can't it when they're starting out how to get the most out of that relationship. So how do they clearly define their goals and what they want out of that relationship?
Speaker 2:yeah, that is actually exactly the question that a friend of mine asked a few weeks ago, and I was quite surprised because, like, I think I reached a point where I just don't even think about goal setting because it just comes naturally to me. But if you've never done it before, it is quite a challenge, obviously, and I would say, well, I will always say just start with a piece of paper and a pen, whatever you do, just take notes and, like, write down what you would like to do, where would you like to be and what things you struggle with the most right now, and you will probably come up with quite a few things, and then after that, you need to decide on one or two which is the most important for you right now, and then try to find someone that will be able to help you with those things, rather than try to address everything at the same time, because that will surely fail yes, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Um, almost just sitting down before you start the the relationship of where am I now, where would I like to be, other than being thrown into? You might have been matched at work, for instance. You might not have even reached out to somebody and and found a mentor, um, and you might be thinking to yourself I'm not quite sure even what I'd like to get out of this, and you might waste the experience entirely and think in a few years time you might think actually I didn't really sit down and figure out what I wanted.
Speaker 1:I suppose as well, because mentors are not mind readers and they don't know exactly what you want and where you want to get to, and so picking out those challenges, I suppose, being honest as well with yourself as to where you're struggling and the challenges that you have in your career, and sometimes admitting those even to yourself, so you can say this is where I would like to move to and move forward, and just having that moment, I suppose, to figure that out for yourself to figure that out for yourself.
Speaker 2:It is very hard, though, like especially being honest with yourself, especially when you're, I think, early in your career and you haven't had that much experience, to kind of understand how things work. Just yet, you, you might feel very overwhelmed, but I think one thing that people very often overlook and every time I say this, they they're very surprised is that the thing that you're struggling with right now, you will not struggle with them forever. You will learn how to cope with this, and then there will be other challenges, but the thing that is difficult for you now it won't be like this forever, and sometimes, when you're in the moment, it might feel like it's going to be difficult always, but it always changes yes, I love that, that it won't be difficult forever.
Speaker 1:And and how to not run from that problem as well, I suppose you know address it um head on with your mentor and then, once you get through, it um, as you say, you know, it's not something that you'll struggle with forever.
Speaker 1:You'll have new challenges in the future. But instead of perhaps running from something in your career and then thinking I wish I just had some support to push through that wherever that that challenge was at that point in my career. And we have a we're in the process of launching a mentoring program within she Can Code's community and a lot of the feedback that we've had has actually been about finding the right mentor can sometimes be quite a challenge, because sometimes people are matched with people and they feel like you know what? That really wasn't for me. So we're trying to find a way of how we can introduce people and then, if it isn't working, you can kind of nicely say this isn't working, I need to find somebody else, because sometimes when you find that right mentor that it just really takes off. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about finding the right mentor and how that kind of all the stars align. So can you share a personal experience with finding the right mentor? Felt like finding the right pair of glasses.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not always obvious, um, and especially when you're doing it the first time, it is kind of exactly like finding the right pair of glasses, because the first time you go to get some, you don't really know what you're looking for. You don't really know if the glasses are better or worse because you have nothing to compare it to. So I think one of the most important thing is to just normalize that. You will be probably wrong the first time or the first few times, and it's, it's okay, because this is how you learn as well, and this on its own is a great journey to experience that. Well, maybe this mentor wasn't for me because of this reason.
Speaker 2:So now look for someone who has a different approach, that is a little bit different and and yeah, I've had a few mentors that didn't really work for me very well for for various reasons, and and initially funny thing is that I thought it was my fault I think we tend to do it a way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's kind of like a like a women thing that you you tend to think like oh, there's nothing wrong with me if they're not a good mentor for me, but sometimes it's nobody's fault, it's just you just have personalities that are not going to work in a mentoring relationship, and I think, yeah, it is very important to to know that this might happen and it's okay.
Speaker 2:And then then, if you meet with someone twice, maybe three times, and you're just not getting what you wanted, that probably means that it's not for you and you should probably look for someone else, and eventually you will find the right person and they will be able to actually really propel you forward. And I've had a few mentors like this, and my last mentor, or current mentor, um, is Jackie Voss, and she's really amazing and she's she's helped me so much because it was exactly what I needed at that point, um, and she's also incredibly experienced and that helps. But I've only been able to get this because I defined what I wanted and I was able to do it because I've been doing it for so long already, which is also a challenge.
Speaker 1:When you're very early in your career, you don't really know what you're looking for, and this is again important to actually just um, yeah, normalize the fact that you will probably make mistakes yeah, so interesting that you, you were the one that was feeling like, oh, maybe it's me, um, because you're right, if you're quite new and you haven't had a mentor before, you might be thinking or maybe I'm just not getting the most out of this because I haven't done something, when actually you're just better to quickly have that thought.
Speaker 1:You know what, we're just not a good match and I need to part ways in a nice way and then I'm going to find somebody else and they're going to find another mentee and hopefully they go on to find a good match, um, but I suppose the quicker you have that thought the better, because you can just move on, find somebody else that really does work for you. Um, but you're so right when you do that at first, you, you, you don't know you do. Is this, is it meant to be like this? Is this what all mentoring feels like? You know, kind of, yeah, I think it. Actually, I might be ticking the box of mentor, but I'm not getting much out of this relationship yeah, and it can be particularly challenging when someone recommends you a mentor as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but just because the mentor is right for someone else doesn't mean that they're going to be right for you. Um, and again, there's nothing wrong with the friend that recommended the person or with the mentor overview.
Speaker 1:It's just might just not be for you yes, and before you get to that point where you're thinking maybe I've been with this mentor several months and I'm not getting anywhere, are there any red flags that indicate a mentor might not be the right fit for a mentee? Is there anything that you've learned along the way where you thought I wish I'd just noticed that red flag a little bit sooner?
Speaker 2:I think one of the signals is if they don't really seem like they remember what you were talking about last time. That seems that seems quite obvious. But it is a two-way relationship and what I always do when going into a meeting I prepare with notes and I usually collect those notes since the previous time we've met um, and I do it on both sides, like as a mentor and as a mentee, so that I do have like a track of like what we talked about and, um, where we would like to go from and like what are the action items, all of this stuff. Like I do track this and then um, I've had some mentors that said they would do something and they would just not do it and sometimes it happens sometimes you just had it like a busy month and you genuinely didn't have time for this, but sometimes people just forget and it's kind of like a notorious thing and that might mean that actually the mentor is not in the right place in their own life to be able to support someone else for their own journey.
Speaker 1:But also as a mentor, it is important to recognize that maybe right now you should take a step back from mentoring so that you can give the best experience to mentees yes, that's brilliant advice, because you are right, I think some I think as well a good willed people will come forward and think you know, I'd love to do that, and perhaps they, just, like you said, haven't got the time, maybe need to take a step back. Um, at that moment, uh, if they're really not, um, putting their, their heart into it, at least to remember what you spoke about in the last mentor meeting.
Speaker 1:My gosh, yes, yeah, especially if you do um, uh, say that you're going to follow up with something from the last one um, you know, you can kind of excuse one meeting if something doesn't happen, but if you have several and several months later nothing has happened, um, then yes, definitely I. I found as well, um myself, where it's been kind of um moved meetings or cancelled meetings or, you know, meant to meet for a coffee, and then it kind of fizzles out and you kind of think, well, maybe that mentor perhaps wasn't, just didn't have the time, which is absolutely fine, and Mr Hughes doesn't have the time, but it's quite frustrating for the mentee on the other end. But I suppose you learn from that experience as a mentee, though, and perhaps when you went on to be a mentor you had all of those things. So you thought I don't want to treat my mentees in that way yeah, yeah, that that is an important thing to recognize.
Speaker 2:But, um, I think everyone knows this at their own pace, and sometimes people become mentors before they learn these things of how to be actually mindful of your mentees' time. And yeah, sometimes it happens and sometimes I make the same mistake as well that I just need to cancel a meeting a few times and then be like you know what. I just don't have the capacity for this right now. And sometimes you might be able to recommend someone who would be able to fit um, or at least just um.
Speaker 1:Just stop wasting as long as time yes, yes, or sometimes being part of a program is easier to um, have that exchange and communicate that um and then say you know what is best if you move on, uh, rather than as you said, it can get awkward if someone has recommended a mentor to you, and then things can get a little bit awkward.
Speaker 1:Talking of awkwardness, I wanted to touch upon the idea of boundaries as well during your mentorship. So how can mentees ensure they maintain a professional boundary in a mentorship relationship, especially when personal issues overlap with professional development?
Speaker 2:that's quite a it's a fine line it's a tricky one, yeah, because I think over the course of your mentorship you become quite close with your mentor and sometimes they might feel even like friendship. And I think it's okay, and sometimes it's fine to blend the boundary between personal and professional, because I always say that we're, at the end of the day, just a human, and if something is not going very well in your personal life, then your career will be impacted, and vice versa. And I would never want to be able to completely detach from work on the weekends and stuff, because if there was something going not the way it should, then it would impact my mood even outside of work. And I'm pretty sure everyone is like this and we just really try to not think about work in our off time. But it doesn't always work out this way, um, so yeah, so I would say it's.
Speaker 2:It's okay to sometimes ask the mentor about personal things, and there's actually quite a range of things that overlap, for instance, when you're becoming a new parent. This is well, technically speaking, a personal event, but it will impact your career and it will impact how you manage your time, how much time you have for things and how much energy you have, and I think that this is actually an area where a good mentor might help you out someone who's already a parent a bit longer than you, who knows what to watch out for, um, yeah, so I would say that blending the two together is probably a good idea sometimes, but and the mentor should be able to recognize where it's too much for what they're trained for, because I think usually mentors don't actually have any training. But they should be able to recognize that sometimes it's better to refer the person to a therapy instead, because they might need professional help rather than just a mentor helping them out and guiding them.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and again, I suppose, being open and honest about that, because you saying there, perhaps being a new parent is a brilliant example of where you can blur the lines between work and home. And some, you know, some people might think, um, I really, uh, value my mentor more at this point in my life because it keeps me in touch with the professional world and I'm keeping up to date on career development whilst I'm on mat leave or or whatever it may be, whereas some might have the opposite thought and think, actually, I just really need that time to myself, or can we cut down on the amount of meetings, at least while I am out of the workplace? So, yeah, I suppose it's again that relationship with your mentor, being able to communicate with them about what you need, and then you know, being able to communicate with them about what you need, and then you know giving advice, but feeling like they haven't overstepped the mark perhaps, and saying something to you about being a new parent is the other thing that they could really cross the line on what they say, and so you're absolutely right. If you think people need to be referred elsewhere, then again, that's being open and honest, and I love the fact that you mentioned that some mentors become really good friends, because that is absolutely true and some people meet quite early in their careers and stay mentor and mentee for a really long time and do become really good friends.
Speaker 1:So that is one of the many positives of finding a mentor, obviously is that you can stay with them a really long time. If you do find that perfect pair of glasses, then they do stay around for quite some time Talking about relationships and whether or not you have a good or a bad relationship with your mentor. Um, that can be quite tough, obviously, for a mentee to have to highlight that anyway and to their mentor. But how can a mentee recognize when a mentor relationship has run its course? How how can they kind of take a step back and think you know, I I need to address this because I'm kind of wasting my own time at this point like, is there anything that they think, you think mental mentees can do to recognize that?
Speaker 2:I think one of the easier signals is that when you're preparing for the meeting and you don't really have that much to talk about, that's probably a very huge signal that maybe there's no point meeting anymore. And sometimes it might be still nice to keep in touch with this person, or maybe on a more informal basis or um ad hoc meetings rather than having scheduled ones. And apart from that, sometimes you just you just kind of feel like you're not gonna learn from them that much anymore. And it might also be that you're not gonna learn from them that much anymore right now, but for instance, in a year's time, when you have new challenges that might be, um, quite useful to you again. But sometimes you just, um, you just don't need help.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like with therapy you also don't have to be in therapy all the time. Once you've solved your problems, um, you can just take a break from this and it's absolutely fine, um, and yeah, and I I think that there's just that much you can learn from any one person. And once you've learned what you had to learn, then it's just time to move on and find someone else. Sometimes it's also fine to have more than one mentor, if you have the time and the different points of view from each of them.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I love that Finding different mentors as well from different places is so, so useful. I think that is definitely one of the misconceptions about finding a mentor that you find one and that is it one and and that is it. And some of the ladies in our community have told us that they've they have found mentors um with inside their companies, um externally from their companies. They've found them through programs and they've reached out to people um as well, for instance on linkedin, and kind of reached out and said, hey, you know, I'm looking for a mentor um, but you find people in in lots of different places and to help you with lots of different things in your career as well. I don't think there's kind of a silver bullet mentor that you find who is just gonna be, you know, the, the holy grail for your whole career and they're gonna help you through it.
Speaker 1:But I mean yourself, when you were finding mentors, what did you find? The the best way of of kind of did you, did you reach out? Did you go for a program? Some people hate the idea, like the thought of them having to send a message on LinkedIn and saying, hey, would you be interested? You'd be my mentor. This frightens the hell out of some people. So, like what? What did you find in terms of strategies? How did you find yours, and how do people find you um?
Speaker 2:so when I started out, um, that was a google and there is an internal program for finding mentors, so I just browsed people and I found ones, uh, that sparked joy, and then I would just start talking to them, and, and similarly, when people were looking for me, they also just looked for my profile and then they would just send a message to me. Internally. I would be, to be honest, horrified also of sending a message to someone on LinkedIn unless I already knew them from somewhere. And sometimes you can tell that someone will be a good fit for you. And then, if you've already talked to them about just in general stuff, um, and then you just want them to be your mentor. You don't even have to make it such a formal thing. You just you might just ask them like, hey, can we have a chat? And I would like to give your advice on this particular topic.
Speaker 2:You don't have to have it like this big mentoring relationship, because sometimes it feels scary to a potential mentor as well that they might feel like, oh no, I definitely don't have time to commit to like a regular thing, but they might be available for a one-off chat and maybe two-off chats, and that might actually be more than enough for you and then you'll be able to move forward and maybe find someone later down the line, because it's also it it's not like you said it's. It's not like a silver bullet ever it's. It's just a relationship for some period of time, for just some area of your life. Um, and as you learn and grow, you can change the mentors, you can find new people and your old mentors who know you and who know what challenges you're facing.
Speaker 1:My recommend people who are actually going to be helpful going forward yes, definitely, and we've found through through the feedback, um to get ready for ours, that so many people want to be a mentor, so I almost think people are nervous about reaching out to people, but most people are thinking in the back of their minds I'd love to mentor somebody.
Speaker 1:I wish somebody would reach out to me. So most of the time people don't mind, but I think people do have that thought. You know, I really can't reach out to somebody and ask in case they haven't got the time, but we have found that a lot of people do. Do want to give back, like yourself, and to really help out. So, yeah, finding them in lots of different ways can be a real benefit to your career. And and finding different people for different things as well at different times in your career is the other thing.
Speaker 1:As you said, your mentor will change throughout your career because you might outgrow them and you might move into a leadership position, and then you need somebody else to talk to about that and how you're going to cope. Now you're a leader and you don't have to have all the answers and you need somebody to tell you all of those things. Um so um. I wanted to ask you a bit about um taking ownership of that, because, obviously, um, you know what our day-to-day goes by and then, before you know, it's the end of the year and you haven't done all the things that you wanted to do. So in your experience, how can mentees best take ownership of their development while working with a mentor?
Speaker 2:I would say the first and most important thing is to stop feeling guilty about it, which is very hard, but it's really fun if you reach that point, because if you, if you set out to do something and then you didn't, it didn't work out for some reason, well, feeling guilty about it is not going to change that fact. It's just going to make you feel bad about yourself, and I think everyone has really busy lives, and then you always do your best by default, because we, as humans, we just wanted to do our best. So whatever you didn't get to do, you just did not have the capacity for it. That's like as simple as that.
Speaker 2:Um, so, rather than feeling bad about the fact that you haven't had the capacity for it, just try to think like was this actually something that I really wanted to do? And if so, then I should prioritize this a little bit better going forward. But if there was something that was more aspirational and I actually don't care about it as much maybe it's better to just let go of this idea and do something else instead, something that is more important to what I want to be. But my approach right now is all very kind to yourself, I would say and just understand that at the end of the day, we have a limited energy, limited time and limited resources in all different capacities, and if we just don't get around to doing something, maybe it's just what you meant to be yes, yes, gosh, that guilt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we've all had that feeling of, uh, you know you want to do something, or you you'd like to put something on your cv. Perhaps you're looking for extra things to to put on your cv and then you think you know what. This really just isn't working for me, um, or I'm not helping anyone, or I'm not getting much out of a relationship. So, um, you're right to drop that guilt and think I just step away from it. And for now, and go back to another point and on that note, uh, out of curiosity, is there anything that you wish someone had told you before you started mentoring others? Is there anything where you thought you, you just think, god, I wish I'd known that before I stepped forward and wanted to be a mentor for someone?
Speaker 2:um, I think one of the things that surprised me slightly was that not everyone had the same problems as me. A lot of people do, because we're not very unique as people. We have similar problems. But there are people who I mentored that I told them a piece of advice that took me months to get over with or just kind of implement, and they would do it within two weeks. And I was like, hmm, okay, that is interesting. I was prepared for this to take three months and then it took them two weeks to actually resolve and move forward. And that was a funny realization that sometimes your advice and your experience will be different when you're mentoring someone, and it doesn't mean that your mentee is not a good match, but it means that they will move at different pace and it's something to be mindful of that maybe this relationship will be a little bit um shorter because of this that's super interesting and, yeah, something that you wouldn't afford to.
Speaker 1:I suppose that helps you as well with your career and just opening your eyes to other people's problems. So it's kind of it is a two way street there, but, yeah, it must have been quite an eye opener when people did tell you the problems that they were having and you thought that that's going to be over in a couple of weeks or I hadn't even thought of that. So, yeah, definitely beneficial from from your side as well. And, bianca, we are already out of time and I could keep talking to you on this subject forever, but we're already out of time today. But thankfully we do have a live webinar coming up with yourself and the wonderful Federica, who is a passionateer inclusivity advocate and women in games ambassador, and she's going to be joining you for maximizing your mentoring, relationship and career path live webinar.
Speaker 1:That will happen on Wednesday, the 27th of November, at 4 pm UK time, and we will add a link for everybody to register for that below or you can go over to communityshecancodeio and go and check it out there and register in there. But we will make sure that everybody listening knows where to sign up for that webinar so they can ask you live Q&A as well, so they can drop their questions in. I'm sure there are lots of listeners that just listen to this podcast and they're thinking. I wish I could ask Bianca and Federica some questions on that so they'll have the opportunity to ask you when we do that webinar in November. But for the time being, thank you so much for coming on and having a chat and sharing your experiences and advice about mentoring. It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you.
Speaker 2:Thank you. It was amazing to join you today. Uh, thank you for the invite thank you.
Speaker 1:I bet everybody listening as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
