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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Remote Horizons: Navigating Gender Diversity in Tomorrow's Workforce
Join us as we delve into the evolving landscape of remote work with our guests from Capco. We explore how remote work is reshaping gender diversity, particularly for women balancing caregiving responsibilities.
Discover the latest shifts in remote work environments and their implications for women, alongside the challenges and opportunities this presents for companies striving to foster inclusive cultures and tap into diverse talent pools. Tune in to gain insights into the future of remote work and its transformative potential in achieving workplace equality.
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Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in Again. I am Kayleigh Bateman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing remote horizons, navigating gender diversity in tomorrow's workforce. Today we're going to dive into the evolving landscape of remote working with our fabulous guests from Capco. We're going to explore how remote work is shaping gender diversity, particularly for women balancing caregiving responsibilities. I'm lucky enough to have three ladies from Capco with me today. I've got Hayden, lindsay and Ange. Welcome ladies. Thank you so much for joining us on Spilling the Tea. Thank you for having me. Pleasure to have you on. We're going to do some intros so our listeners can learn a little bit about each of you. Ange, shall we?
Speaker 1:start with you. Our listeners can learn a little bit about each of you, ange?
Speaker 2:shall we start with you? Hi everyone, I'm Ange. I've been at Capco for a little bit over two years. How did I end up? As a woman in tech and finance? I spent most of my life telling myself I would never end up in finance. I thought it was insufferably boring and somehow I ended up here, which is I don't really know what to comment on, but, um, I studied physics and philosophy at uni. Um, I often joke. My CV reads like a long list of commitment issues. I couldn't really find something that scratched the creative side of my brain as well as like the more numerically driven, analytical side of things, and I ended up basically falling into product management headfirst, with a series of happy accidents, with projects I ended up staffed on and I found it kind of did just that. I think that business of that balance of business and customer outcomes, is really like it's a really interesting problem to solve, ultimately, to help the companies that we work with make good business decisions without sacrificing to go to the customer.
Speaker 1:So that's how I've ended up with a woman in tech amazing I know we hear that story a lot that she can code, where people like I don't quite know what happened, but I I ended up here and I'm pleased that I made it here. But we hear that um really often and it's that's actually why this podcast was started to hear how ladies end up in tech and that you don't always have to have that technical computer science degree to end up in a tech role. How are you doing?
Speaker 3:yourself. Hey well, thank you. Hi everyone. My name is Hayden. I've been with Capco for almost a year now and I'm currently a principal consultant, so equivalent of a manager. I'm in cybersecurity, so sort of I got you know in a tech role and how I end up in cybersecurity. To begin with I'll say that I didn't really choose the career actively out of college. The career chose me, where I had an internship with Deloitte back then right before graduation and it was sort of like in a cyber security, information security role, and started with the firm for seven years right after college and I just feel that this is a right place and the right profession for me. So I've been pursuing cybersecurity ever since and, you know, with Capco just really just expanding my career trajectory. You know, professional growth with the firm Been very happy so far, Amazing, I love that Career chose me.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 3:Literally the career chose me.
Speaker 1:And, as mentioned, there are lots of us in tech that have that feeling. Lindsay yourself.
Speaker 4:last but not least, yeah, so everyone, my name is Lindsay, and then I joined Capco last September, so right now I have been with Capco for a little bit over a year now. And how I ended up in tech. So, unlike the other two ladies, I actually came from very typical business background, so I graduated last year with a business degree and then, back in my university, I always have a vision of, you know, connecting the tech and business, because I always know that in order for a new technology to get implemented, you always need business perspectives to chime in, and then I always position myself as part of that. And then actually right now, what I'm doing is also digital transformation helping the banks to modernize their banking platforms, and I really enjoy that, and I hope I can bring my perspectives into today's podcast too.
Speaker 1:Incredible and you had an an idea of what you wanted to do and and and how that works with tech. But who inspired you? What? Is it something that, when you were younger, you knew what you wanted to do? Or or was it somebody, somebody that you'd seen that maybe worked in in a similar area?
Speaker 4:I would say it's probably somebody I have seen in the past, for example, like my friends, my close friends. They are not like me, they have like a technology degree and then I'm always like fascinated by how they can use tech, write codes. But I can write codes, but I'm trying to, you know, contribute from a business perspective into the technology implementation. Yeah, Incredible.
Speaker 1:Well, ladies, we have a lot to cover off today and we're going to talk about remote working. So how has the shift to remote work impacted gender diversity in the workplace, particularly for women? Who wants to jump in first with that question?
Speaker 3:Well, I would say that for somebody, for women, working on cyber security for eight years now, there are so many times where I would jump into a meeting and I'm the only woman in a room or in a zoom call. Most recently, you know, I'm leading an effort to sort of deploy a system for my client, who is a bank, and was in a room with literally 15 male engineers and I was the only woman which can feel empowering but at the same time a little intimated, intimidated by the masculine energy that is in the room. Yeah, so I would say that women, you know, even now, year 2024, still significantly underrepresented in the tech industry, in the tech roles. Um, I know that there's only about 24% of technology positions in general are filled by women. So gender diversity we're getting there, but there's still a lot to do and you know, to work on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you think that has definitely helped that remote working where you perhaps feel?
Speaker 3:differently at work, where you're not intimidated being in those meetings anymore, because it's like we have that nice balance now between being in the workplace and working as well, virtually, so it's kind of it's leveled playing field, for for a lot of us that were feeling that way, yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Um, I mean in since covid that you know the world has to switch to remote work, um, because of the pandemic, I mean across the board, especially in the tech industry, I've seen more, you know, women participating in, you know, in the labor force. So their labor for participation rate definitely has gone up because now women especially ones with, you know, caregiving responsibility, that they have a child had to care for or caring for a dependent, you know, a sick family member they have access to jobs that aren't located in their city of residence. So they are able to, you know, um, open up themselves to more opportunities and more jobs that are skill-based and also with higher paying, you know, I guess, compensations and at the same time I don't have to compromise, you know, relocating to a different state across the country in the US or have to compromise other personal commitments. I think that really has had a positive impact on improving gender diversity in the workplace, especially for women.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lindsay, I can see you nodding along.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I definitely agree. And then I think, overall, overall, the shift to remote work has a, I would say, a complex impact on gender diversity because, on one hand, if you think about the flexible work hours, the great work balance and also the access to different opportunities, because right now women can literally just apply whatever roles they want because we don't require you to be in the office five days a week, but on the other hand, I'm thinking from a career trajectory perspective, sometimes you need to be in the office for visibility, for recognition. Maybe that part will, you know, be sacrificed given the remote work scenario. But I would say, like, overall, I still think women benefit a lot from the remote work initiative yeah, it's definitely a balance, ange.
Speaker 2:I could see you nodding there when Lindsay mentioned career trajectory and making sure you're in the office as well, sometimes as, like, I was a COVID graduate, so I've never worked in in a time period where it was expected to be in five days a week, so I can't really comment on whether I've seen it change mathematically, though I would expect it to.
Speaker 2:I think, if you're going to ask me, do I think there's a uniform experience for people who work predominantly remotely or hybrid versus in person?
Speaker 2:I say no, and I think the way they're perceived like, probably unfairly so, is quite different. But I think, taking like a slightly more, I guess, meta lens on it or philosophical lens on it, I think it's really important to frame this with the background that, like the nine to five was built on the man, it was built on sort of the male biology, the male expectations. They don't have like a monthly cycle, which some women do like, and I think some of those differences that might make it, you know, a lot harder to commit to showing up on a consistent basis. They're kind of not even being considered. So I think there's some work to do on how we actually position what success looks like before we can say we're truly in sort of a remote, friendly time period for women in the workplace. Might be like a controversial take, but I don't think we've actually got to the point where we understand the drivers for people wanting to be remote other than oh, they want to spend time with their kids.
Speaker 1:Like, a woman who doesn't have children has as much right to be remote as a woman who does have children yes, I've had this argument in workplaces at that exact same same argument, where people will say, um, uh, it's, it's always if you're a parent and actually there are a lot of people that have other responsibilities as well, outside of parenting and I had a sick parent for some time and I almost felt like it I, I not as an excuse was like I need to be here, I need to be there, but it almost wasn't as taken, not as seriously, but it's almost like if I don't have children, then why are you asking to you know, be out for the day, or you need to be somewhere for the day because I don't have, um, uh, children. So, but there are other um, caring responsibilities and um, and you're absolutely right, though, even if you don't have caring responsibilities, um, ladies still have the right to want to work remotely, um, and have valid reasons to to do so.
Speaker 2:You're absolutely right on the company to provide the correct infrastructure to make sure that that work that has to be done in person doesn't then just fall onto another person, because that breeds resentment right.
Speaker 2:So conversations I've had with people who are like I think everyone should come back to the office four or five times a week.
Speaker 2:Nine times out of ten.
Speaker 2:It's because they feel like they've been lumped with an extra unfair workload because someone's, you know, gone home early to look after their kid, or gone home early to visit a loved one, or, you know, take care of caretaking responsibilities, and because the infrastructure is not there for all the extra capacity for someone to take over, or that understanding is not being set with client people are having to scramble and pick up work and then they're being oversubscribed and they're feeling like they've been cheated. So I think like to do remote working well. That's when we'll start to see that shift really happen and the trajectory won't be impacted, whereas right now, if I was a manager feeling like I had to pick up 1.5 times the work because someone who reports to me has to always leave early to pick up their child, I can only imagine it would breed resentment eventually if I felt like I wasn't being supported to do that yes, yes, definitely, it has been an adjustment um for everybody and you're absolutely right, it does depend as well on the team and um and how it's implemented.
Speaker 1:But how? I wanted to ask you have any of you observed any specific trends regarding women with caregiving responsibilities and their participation participation in remote um work and you were mentioning a couple of examples there but have you seen any trends regarding women with caregiving responsibilities?
Speaker 3:One trend that I've observed personally a couple of my friends who have children. They are willing to switch to a job that offers remote opportunities with slightly less pay and because it's a remote job option and they're willing to do that because they have children to take care of and they don't want to and the kids are too small to be sent to daycare. So that is something that I've observed personally, yeah, around me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting, yeah, around me. Yeah, that's interesting when people make that decision to to have flexibility and, um, yeah, over salary. I did that when I needed some flexibility and it is a shame that you have to make that decision almost and think I'm going to take a salary cut because at this moment in time I need to be somewhere else, I need to be doing something else where I'm not in five days a week and right used to earn. But, um, I know that is getting better for some people, especially with remote working. You can be a lot more flexible and that's helping people with, um, caring responsibilities. But yeah, it is a shame that people feel they have to make that move and have a drop in salary.
Speaker 3:Right. Right, because a lot of employers, a lot of companies nowadays they're sort of enforcing this hybrid work model and some are not really implementing in a positive way, not really promoting gender diversity, but in a negative way, in an opposite way. So it's really impacting especially women with caregiving responsibility that they feel that they'll get penalized if they don't show up in their office enough because the policy wasn't clear enough for them, and so, in the case of some of my friends, they started to feel that the model was not working, at least the hybrid model that was implemented in. Their old employer decided to, you know, look for external opportunities and, you know, willing to sacrifice a little bit of the pay for the level of flexibility that they used to have back then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I agree. And yourself, what, what, what trends?
Speaker 2:have you seen? Um, I think it's probably like anecdotal, so I wouldn't want to hang my hat on any of them being like universal, but I think, as like as someone with a South Asian background, I do notice that that there that there still seems to be this like conflict between appreciating that work from home is still work, so that balance between the caregiving responsibilities and the, you know, corporate job it does seem to still slightly skew in the direction of the women still taking on the majority of the caretaking responsibilities but also maintaining a full-time job. And I think, like some of that might just be cultural and I think there's a lot of work to be done there. And I know a lot of families that you know they do have two working parents who both take parental leave and both share the caregiving responsibilities. However, I can join calls with clients and almost always the women will be on the call apologizing sorry, I couldn't come in today because my, my kid didn't take very well to nursery and I'll be like, oh my gosh, like that's so fine bond with them over whatever, like funny thing their kid said when they picked them up it's.
Speaker 2:I very rarely come across a father who is like sorry, I and I'm not. This is not me saying that the woman's done something wrong. I just want to make that perfectly clear. But I think there's still an expectation that the woman will rush home to take off the child, but the man will stay in the office and do do the hard work, do the hard yards, because that's his job and the wife's expected to go back. So I don't think there's this like equal respect for the career of the woman versus the career of the man. When can a woman get thrown into it?
Speaker 1:yeah, definitely. I had a discussion recently with a lady who said, as a couple, they had both decided to take shared parental leave for both of their children. And she said, as parents, it made such a difference as well because, instead of the child always thinking um as the mum, as the main caregiver, she said, actually we found with our second child, when we really implemented that, that he actually made a difference and that the child was equally thinking of both of us, instead of always thinking like mum was going to turn up for everything. But she said we had to make a conscious effort to do it. And you're right, it is normally the woman who who's always fought off um, but she said we think it had a positive effect on our children by by doing that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, my mum always tells the story like to me that I wouldn't go to my dad until I was like two because he was always working and she was always looking after me and I was like who's this strange man that appears every evening for a brief half an hour before I go to bed and he had to take like prolonged leave from work to like establish a bond with me as a child. And I just think also for like for working dads, that must be like quite difficult, like I think that must be quite a difficult thing to overcome if you feel like you don't have the right to take that, take that time away from being in the office.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely, and Lindsay yourself have you seen any trends um regarding caregiving responsibilities?
Speaker 4:um, I would say one of the trends just to echo back what Ange said is sometimes women can experience some stress or even burnout, even if there is the remote work initiative, because personally I found that it's very hard to find the clear boundary between my work and my life, especially you are working from home and then even if you have the time to take care of your children, to pick up your children, but at the same time the expectation is that you still need to finish your work before, let's say, 5 pm and then sometimes that can lead to even more stress for women, even if they have the time to take care of folks. So I would say there needs to be a mutual effort, not only coming from the company's policy needs to be a mutual effort, not only coming from the company's policy, but also coming from the different individuals, such as the women's husband or her family's members. They need to provide more support in order for the remote work initiative to have more benefits on the women.
Speaker 1:yeah, yes, definitely, I agree. I definitely agree with that. Um, it will definitely have more benefits for women um, in the long run, and I I wanted to uh touch upon that because there have been a lot of changes in in remote work recently. Um, and I wanted to to touch upon um, what recent changes in remote work, in the remote work environment, has had the most significant impact on women? You've all spoke a little bit about having that flexibility Now people can work remotely. What recent changes do you think have really helped with that? Do you think it's like policy changes or mindset? We've covered that a little bit. You know you're still thought of if you're not in the office, maybe you're not working, and you were saying you know about um, are you not thought of badly if you're not in the office, but perhaps you might not get considered for certain things? Um, what, what do you think in terms of what's had the most significant impact on on women recently?
Speaker 2:for me I would probably say like weirdly, social media. So I was reading somewhere that, like most career influencers influencers they tend to be women and I think this ability to like, share, like, have this global shared experience, like, for example, we wouldn't all be sat having this conversation right now in, uh, toronto, philadelphia and London at the same time and sharing our experience and then bonding over the shared experience without the rise of like video conferencing, and I wouldn't know that, you know, in in other countries, for example, parental leaves a lot harder in the states than it is in the UK and I wouldn't be able to empathize in the same way and understand that's different. I think that ability for us to connect outside of work over our experiences empowers us to kind of set our boundaries in the workplace. I feel a lot more articulate when I've watched a video on someone talking about how they've set a boundary in the past. Like that might be really gen z of me, but I find that really helpful.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I love that you touched upon boundaries and remote working. It's been such an issue with so many people. I remember in the pandemic that was really like how do we? I remember everybody had the anxiety of like, am I okay to log off? Is everybody going to message me like through the night, especially if you work with global teams? But we've all kind of figured out how to set those boundaries. You're right, it's such a big thing with um remote working, um lindsey hayden, what? What do you think um what's had the most significant impact on women?
Speaker 4:um, I would say definitely company policies, um, because that can include a lot of things, such as the hybrid work model, like you only need to come into office for, like, let's say, two days or three days a week. And then, besides that I can think about, especially for Capco, we have like those parenting and caregiver support. I remember our company offers like a $500 bonus for any new parents and they offer like 18 weeks of parental leave time for any women that are giving birth to children. So I think that really helps to kind of benefit the women employees. And, on the other hand, I realize nowadays there is increasing awareness of both the gender diversity as well as the well-being issues and like, for example, right now we are having the podcast about women and also gender diversity. And then in Capco we also have different affinity groups, like Wellbeing at Cato I'm only speaking for like Toronto, they have different workshops, or even like launch and learn in order to help facilitate people to have more awareness of not only the well-being and also gender diversity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's that's so interesting as well. Talking more about it makes such a difference to how everybody's feeling as well in the workplace. That was really strange when we all started working from home as well in the workplace. Because that was really strange when we all started working from home. Previously, I used to feel like if I needed to work from home because I was taking in a parcel or something that day, I'd always feel like my manager was looking at me like, oh, you're not going to be working that day. You know, it was like a thing. It was like, oh, probably not going to work. So I think we all had the same anxieties when we all ended up doing hybrid working.
Speaker 1:But I agree with the policies and writing things in so you know where you need to be and whether it's two days and then you feel comfortable with, like Ange said, setting those boundaries. Like you know, it's been written into policy and you feel a lot more comfortable with how that is going to go and what's expected of you. Hayden yourself what do you think has had significant impact?
Speaker 3:so something that I personally experiencing is, you know, with the shift to hybrid work model I'm not sure how it is in Toronto or London, but in the US a lot of our clients, capco's clients, are requiring our consultants to show up on site. You know, three, four days a week and you know you're expected to be on site at 8 30 in the morning and for eight to nine hours a day, and so that expectation and requirements from a client, of course, to us clients first. So that has really changed, for you know a lot of women that you know you have to meet with that expectation. So now it leaves you a very much little flexibility, even though it's we call it a, you know, a hybrid work model is not, is mostly on site. So you're pretty much returning not to a capital office but a client office, which is sort of the same thing.
Speaker 3:So that level of commitment can have some sort of you know well put women in a challenging position, especially ones with caregiving responsibilities. That, okay, now you're going to have to, you know, ask for help either from your parents. If you have kids, we have to send them to daycare if you know they are old enough, but if they're too young. You probably have to find out some other ways. Or you know, work with your family your husband to to make sure that you know family commitments and responsibilities are taken care of while women are at work and have to make sure that we, you know, meet with the client's expectations and demands.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and you're right. It goes back to that again of knowing what's expected of you and if you have to be on site, knowing that you have to be on site, knowing that you have to be on site for that client, um, and, as you said, finding that those support networks from, from elsewhere, if you need to. Um, which leads perfectly into about how companies can better support women. Um, because when you're in that situation, um, how, how do you think companies can better support women, particularly those with caregiving responsibilities in a remote work setup?
Speaker 3:all programs to provide the child care and caregiving support, something like a subsidized program to help lift some financial burden, you know, for women, because you know, a lot of the times women you know they're not, they can't afford sending the kids to child care for whatever reasons. Right, and so having that sort of subsidised programme provided by your company is extremely helpful. So that sort of gives women an option to take care of, you know, their loved ones, their children, and still be able to, you know, meet with client expectations, career work expectations.
Speaker 1:Yes, and definitely would retain female talent as well, if those programs were for sure. Um, yeah, I know because a lot of companies are thinking where are all the women in tech? And then you get them in and there's no programs to help you or retain you so companies know how to do that right. And yourself, how can companies better support women, do you think?
Speaker 2:I think, sticking by what they say and being consistent and making sure they see that process end to end. So I can only speak from a consultancy point of view. But, like Hayden mentioned, if you have committed to being sort of a flexible company and supporting hybrid work or remote work, and then the client has come and said we expect you in four days, five days a week, I do personally think and I appreciate I'm fairly junior so I don't understand how these things work. So I'm speaking like entirely candidly I would expect that there's sort of a meeting in the middle where we say, okay, but in, in honesty, we don't support that as a policy. We're happy for them to come in, you know, three times a week, but, as you know, one of our principles is, you know, be yourself at work or inclusion, and that includes be yourself at work.
Speaker 2:If you're a mother that needs to look after their kids, I think it's all very well having the childcare provisions, but I don't actually know how much of that money they cover and it might come onto a question later.
Speaker 2:But I do think there's something inherently privileged about assuming that someone can afford two full days of childcare or three full days of childcare or four full days of childcare. And so I would like to say companies who work with other companies, so consultancies or tech tech companies. They hold their boundaries for their, for their employees. They, you know, they actually go out on a limb and say like, okay, can one of those four days a week be a day that we, we have jurisdiction over, so they come to you three days a week. Week be a day that we, we have jurisdiction over, so they come to you three days a week and the people who who have a remote workout working setup with capco are able to continue to be flexible.
Speaker 2:We don't want you to miss out on this talent. They're a really good fit for the project. Sell it to them because you have that relationship. You're, you're doing the, you're doing something good for the company. You have a leg to stand on. I'd love to see a future where companies feel confident enough to do that for women yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1:And also I was thinking then, as you were speaking about that um expense, because you mentioned their child care and whether or not somebody can afford an extra day child care for those of us that don't have children. They have to travel into London, for instance. Your train ticket can be very expensive and if you're expected to go in extra days, I live quite far out of the city, so when I'm asked to come in days, I'm not expected. I'm thinking in my head well, that's just cost me a lot. So it's those things as well.
Speaker 3:It adds up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think the pushback you always get to that because it is a conversation that happens a lot in London, because, like you know what the train fares are like and it's you know you, you signed up for a London job, you're getting London salary and like I I understand that pushback, but I think it's sort of around okay, but like, if we're trying to live up to our values, like there are people who that salary is just about covering them and a partner or them and someone who they're, who they have a dependent for them and a child, and the cost of living in places like London I assume Toronto and Philadelphia must be very similar is extremely high at the moment, and like people are just about making ends meet. So I think there is almost like a degree of like, okay, we get it, we understand that on paper, you people have signed up for this but we didn't sign up for like a global recession and four years of pandemic.
Speaker 1:So somewhere something has to give yeah, exactly, and the good companies, they do know how to make it work and retain talent um, and, yeah, make it work for everybody. Because, yeah, they just know that good, good talent eventually will just walk um if things, if they don't um set those boundaries, as you said ang for for their employees. Um, lindsay yourself, what? What do you think that um that companies could do to better support women?
Speaker 4:I would say another aspect is for companies to create or initiate some kind of recognition or rewards programs, because I feel that personally I love looking to a role model for my career and I feel like that applies to women too. For example, companies can maybe celebrate and acknowledge the achievements of the women that manage the work and life balance pretty well, so that all the women from the company maybe can just look up to their women, use her as a role model. I believe that can definitely increase the visibility piece as well as boost the morale, like women can for sure do a great job, even if she has, you know, different responsibilities.
Speaker 1:she has the world, she has the children yes, I completely agree, and companies that are showcasing that as well.
Speaker 1:Um, it's so, so important.
Speaker 1:And capco do a really good job of that, because we had a podcast with three um parents who wanted to talk about how they're doing um, uh, how they balance their work, work and life as new parents.
Speaker 1:Um, and you're absolutely right, the more stories that you hear about how people are balancing remote work and being in the office and juggling parenthood and and being a carer for, for loved ones, the easier it is to think that's okay and I'll stay here.
Speaker 1:Because if you have those different stages of your life and you might be sitting there, you know, quite junior in your career now, thinking maybe this isn't the company for when I do move through those stages of my life and I do have a child or I have to look after somebody, um, then you will be thinking at this point I you know I haven't heard a good story yet and you you might want to leave, but the more positive stories you hear from within about um, like the, the um, uh, the two ladies and the guy um that we had on the podcast it was great to have a guy as well share what that is like for him and the time that he took off work um to to become a new parent, and the easier it is for you to make those decisions when you do move through those seasons um in your life I want to take it back.
Speaker 3:I want to take it back on lindsay's point. You know she made a very good point about, you know, the recognition program. But I think companies can also, um, you know, initiate mentorship or leadership programs for women. Um, for example, in camp, we have women in cyber and we also have other resource groups to you know, and also your discussion, panel discussion just between women guidance and advice how for women to thrive professionally, um to help with their career progression and still be able to navigate the challenges of, you know, handling caregiving responsibilities yeah, and to hear those challenges you're.
Speaker 1:You're right to share those with one another, and sometimes just to hear that you're not the only person that's feeling that way especially when it comes to things like it, but you're not alone, yeah we're all feeling that way. Yeah, the more that you hear it, the more it puts you at ease at work. What about the opportunities that remote working presents for companies in terms of tapping into a diverse talent pool? What do you think of that? What kind of opportunities does it present to find a more diverse talent pool?
Speaker 2:I think it's back to that inclusion point. I think it's understanding that there's like a huge associated privilege of being able to fund yourself either straight out of uni or early in your career or later in life as an individual in a very expensive city. To manage that as well as a nine-to-five career and potentially also another human um, it takes a village and the assumption that you know people have family in the vicinity or the assumption that people have enough like wealth aggregated to cover those costs. If you work off that assumption, you're excluding, you know, probably 80 to 90 percent of the population, like especially in the UK.
Speaker 2:I think I probably would hang on and saying everyone at Capco would fit well within the top 10 percent of us in the UK because there's such wealth disparity and such wage disparity and I think that there are people who would have to turn down jobs, like you mentioned, hayden, sort of in the reverse. People would have to turn them down because they aren't remote and because they aren't flexible. So I think you're missing out on people who don't have the financial flexibility backing independence or whatever, and you're missing out on their talent because you think they don't exist or you're not taking them into account yes, definitely, and you suffer as a company as a result, because you don't end up with that diverse talent pool that you are looking for or might be on the surface actively looking for but underneath that you're not actually making it easy for yourselves if you haven't got remote working in place and, as you said, it just excludes a whole bunch of people that think, actually, I can't apply for that.
Speaker 1:You're right, Lindsay Hayden. What do you think that remote working presents for companies to be able to tap into a diverse workforce?
Speaker 4:presents for companies to be able to tap into a diverse workforce. So I believe eventually it leads to a new competitive advantage for companies because companies can kind of use remote work as their new value, because employees who are the best talent, they always look for companies that have great values, companies that are forward-looking. And then we all know that after COVID the world has completely changed. Like remote work is a new future for everyone. And then to better attract the different talents, companies that have that remote work value can, I believe, attract more people from different geographic areas to join up and then that ultimately benefits the diverse talent pool.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. I do agree with that that diverse talent pools as well in companies. I don't think it's something that um that years ago when, when we used to start talking about diverse workforces, it used to be a nice to have, and now I think people companies realize that it's far more than a nice to have and that to survive and to be profitable as a business, you really need to find ways to diversify your workforce and that it's and things like remote working are definitely ways that people are companies are now having to implement that to ensure that they have that diverse talent pool. Definitely Hayden yourself.
Speaker 3:So I'll say that, you know, while companies have benefited greatly from diverse talent pool, because I mean, given, that would promote career advancement and visibility for women, because even in this year 2024, I read somewhere I think it's a research from Deloitte that still less than a quarter of leadership roles are held by women in general.
Speaker 3:So I can imagine that the number is even lower for women in tech, and for multiple reasons, right, but I'm sure one of the reasons would be because that, you know, women working remotely, we have limited networking opportunities and also limited visibility and because of that, it makes it extremely, extremely hard for career advancement For some. For women like me who is in mid-level management, if we want to proceed to senior management, we're going to have to need, we're going to need company support, you um a very a bias-free evaluation program to make sure that we are evaluated fair and square against other peers and not because you know we're not, you know, um being put at a disadvantage because that we are allowed to work from home. We're privileged to work from home, or you know having that flexible schedule.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely yeah. And like that which ties back into what we were talking about earlier about career trajectory and if you're in the office and not being put at disadvantage. I think that's always come down to social events as well, that a lot of ladies have felt, um disadvantaged because they might have after work events that are happening and you think, or I have to go and collect a child, or why can't we do things in the day exactly for sure? Um, ladies, we're almost out of time and I wanted to ask you one more question um, how do you foresee the future of remote working evolving particularly concerned in gender diversity and inclusion?
Speaker 3:I would say that one thing for sure that the hybrid work model is here to stay. I know that many companies they try to sort of revert back to a pre-pandemic era where they like to bring their employees back to the office for multiple reasons. But I think for foreseeable future the hybrid work model or even some companies where they still promoting remote first, which is great is definitely here to stay yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think the companies where people were feeling like, oh, suddenly we're having to come back in, or if you started at that company in 2020 and there was a different clause in your contract to what there is now, people were thinking, actually, that isn't for me and, like we said before, retaining good talent, you have to have that option of remote working or hybrid working, um, at least because good talent will go elsewhere and try and find it exactly, so exactly I agree.
Speaker 1:It's here to stay um lindsay yourself what do you foresee for the future of remote working?
Speaker 4:um. So for the future of remote working, I can foresee that there will be a cultural shift, meaning that, because remote work is our new kind of future, there needs to be a cultural shift towards evaluating the contribution and results that the employee made, instead of thinking whether the employee is in the office today or not, whether the employee is in the office today or not. And that requires company-level effort. That requires not only people contribute, even if they are working from home and also leadership or your managers view that part and take into consideration that part. And I believe, to support that cultural shift happened, companies need to do a lot of policy innovations, because people keep talking about how the policies are not perfect, because remote work is eventually a new thing for everyone, and companies need to evolve their policies to better support women's work-life balance, to even create a new robust performance metric where you can take into consideration of the different people's different responsibilities and as well as looking at their performance at home.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love the fact that you said that's a company effort, it's a company-wide thing, because I think some companies are still in that and it's the same with diversity. Sometimes they think just things happen by magic or you know, cultures just kind of turn up in in um company cultures as it's kind of created overnight, but actually they. It takes a really long time to implement something and to be consistent and to come from the top down as well. You know if your um leaders and your executive executive team are also flexible in the way that they work and you see that that trickles down as well. But you're right, it has to be something that is an effort and it is company wide. It doesn't just happen by magic overnight. That's it's it's very much an effort.
Speaker 2:I would like to see us getting more creative with the problems that we're raising about. Yeah, work. So I often hear you know there's a lack of connection. It's way harder to be social. But a really great example. So I used to work at Lululemon in another life, um, and that's like a retail company. So they, they really like they, they rely on people being in person, um, but during Covid I was still working with them and I remember we had a christmas social and they took the effort to send us all these like cupcake decorating kits and we all jumped on the zoom call and we all decorated the cupcakes together because we literally couldn't be together.
Speaker 2:And I think, like that kind of creative thinking, it just takes an extra one percent consideration to be like how can we make this inclusive? And I'd love to think that, especially like a innovative, like entrepreneurial mindset, like mindset company, you'd have the people who come up with those ideas and then on like the like specifics around gender diversity, inclusion, I'd love the companies to take like a really intersectional lens when they look at their policies. So on that thing around like privilege, accrual of wealth, the different cultural backgrounds and expectations, and how that might change someone's ability to manage, you know, additional 50 percent workload. I would love for that to be like, eventually part of like table states of what we use to create our policies. So we're not just creating with this homogenous idea of the woman or the, the non-man, so anyone who doesn't identify as, as sort of the majority in the situation. We're not just ideating with one vision of that in mind, but understanding that, like, there's a huge spectrum of people that fall into this category of not a typical cis white male working in tech.
Speaker 1:Yes, I agree, and you're right in that it isn't just blanket for everybody and, again, it takes that company effort to be able to do that. I love the idea of being more creative and what happened with you. That's a really nice touch and you and would really help to retain staff as well during a tough time. So, yeah, that's lovely when companies um get really creative with their staff and you feel like you're actually part of something and not just a worker that you're not just somebody that's doing something, ticking boxes for them every day.
Speaker 1:um, that, you're really part of that team. Ladies, we are already out of time. It's absolutely flown by. So thank you so much. Ange, lindsay and Hayden, thank you so much for coming on here and having a chat on Spilling the Tea. It's been a pleasure, thank you. Thank you, ladies, and for everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you.
