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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Empowering Women in Engineering at Redgate
Join us for an insightful episode with Imogen Taylor, a talented Software Engineer at Redgate. Imogen discusses her journey at Redgate, where she has already made a significant impact by founding a women in engineering group.
We delve into the motivations behind creating this group, its goals, and aims for the future within the company. Imogen shares her experiences working in engineering teams at Redgate, highlighting successes and offering constructive insights on how Redgate can further enhance its efforts to attract and retain women in tech.
Whether you're curious about diversity initiatives or passionate about engineering, this episode offers valuable perspectives and inspiration for fostering inclusivity in tech communities.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in again. I am Katie Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we're discussing empowering women in engineering at Redgate. I've got Imogen Taylor, a talented software engineer at Redgate, with me here today and she's going to discuss her journey at the company where she founded a women in engineering group. We're going to delve into the motivations behind creating the group, its goals and aims for the future, but also a bit about her own journey as a woman in tech, the challenges faced in the past and her own experiences working in engineering teams at Redgate. Welcome, imogen. Lovely to have you on Spinning the Tea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining me. We'd love to kick off with a bit of background about you, if that's okay for our listeners. So can you share a bit about your background and how you got into software engineering?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, yeah. So I actually started doing maths at uni. So I went to Bristol, yeah, and I was kind of always into maths at school most people shy away from maths.
Speaker 2:What was it about numbers? Yeah, for some reason, like in like year 11, I kind of it flipped and I was like oh, actually I like this. Um. Yeah, I remember I used to like do it on holiday and stuff. Like I got really into it, yeah, just like puzzles and stuff. So, um, yeah, so I did that uni, but then it kind of got pretty abstract, um, and I actually found I kind of liked the applied like problem solving stuff, um, so I went and did like a master's after that called engineering maths, um, and and now I got to do some robotics and scientific computing and stuff, um, so that was really cool. So that was like my first intro to like coding I'd done well, actually I'd done some coding in my maths degree, but it wasn't taught very well and it was like, funnily enough, the only like module I failed, um, but yeah, anyway, it went a lot better.
Speaker 1:Not a good introduction as to what you would actually be doing. No, how frightening that people have been taught that yeah, yeah they turn you off tech.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, luckily the masters went better. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I just really kind of liked, um, you know, taking a problem and just using logic to solve it, um and that and I, yeah, and you know that came from maths, but then I also found I could do that with coding, um, so I just thought, oh, maybe I should try that as a career. And then, yeah, basically just started trying to apply for jobs after a bit of a you know break after uni and, yeah, managed to get one in Cambridge and yeah, and now I'm here kind of in my third job now as a software engineer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been at Redgate since December last year, so amazing, yeah yeah, I'm pleased that you went on to to realize that it is great to work in tech and they wanted to continue with that career. Um, so many ladies you know have have a bad experience at university and just don't want to go on and even join the tech industry. Um, or then fall into tech and then think, actually, this isn't for me, um, but the majority of ladies, once they're in the workforce, they realize, um, what a great um career it is. I know it's interesting you're talking about as well how you were taught at uni, because, um, we had four interns on here recently and they said that their experience of university was nothing like when they went on their internship and then when they actually moved into that company and they all, they all, um secured jobs there, they said this was nothing like university. So, so it's trying to find something where there's a balance if you learn something useful at university and you go into a role and still enjoy it and stay there as well.
Speaker 2:But was that kind of your experience that university wasn't really aligned with work, or yeah, I mean like there's so much to software engineering that's not just coding, yeah, and I think like, especially in my maths degree, there was kind of barely any teamwork stuff, barely any people stuff that was taught. So it was kind of just, you know, get through, get through that theory, you know, do it, and that was it. But it's like, no, that's not what it's like when you get into the job, like there's so much more there's. You know, do it, um, and that was it. But it's like, no, that's not what it's like when you get into the job, like there's so much more there's, you know, collaboration, communication, organizing yourself, um, yeah, kind of the engineering concepts around it there's so much. So like I can see why people do like a full-on computer science degree because that's yeah yeah, yes, yeah, yeah it, yeah it can be.
Speaker 1:Uh, well, it can be quite challenging for uh to get young girls into, um, the workforce. So, um, yeah, that's kind of one of the hurdles, just to get them in once they've studied or they've made it as far as university. Um, we're going to go into your job a little bit, um in a little bit later on in this podcast, because we'd love to hear a little bit about you and your role at red gate as well and what that's like. But I wanted to ask you first because you created a women in engineering group at red gate, so I wanted to ask you a little bit about that. What inspired you to create that group?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, yeah, it's a good question. So I, yeah, as I said, I joined in December, um, and yeah, I'd say my first sort of few years as a software engineer were quite rocky, like I went through some difficult experiences, um. So, yeah, at that point I was feeling a little bit low confidence, um, but yeah, kind of, on that first day, um, you know, I'd gone through like induction stuff with HR and all that, and I got to the kind of engineering floor and, um, I didn't see any women, like I couldn't, I just couldn't see any, I'm like, and that, yeah, that kind of like felt a bit jarring and a bit kind of yeah, a bit intimidating, because I was just like, wait, where where are they? Where are the female engineers? Um, and you know it was, yeah, like it was December, so I think obviously some people were away for Christmas already and stuff, um, but yeah, so I think it was sort of that feeling.
Speaker 2:And then I, you know, I'd spoken to someone and, um, they're saying, oh, you know, there's a slack thread for absolutely everything here. So I thought, oh, okay, there must be like a women in engineering, one or something, um, but there wasn't, um, so, yeah, I just sort of started asking around about it and then a really kind of kind colleague that I'd met had just said oh, why don't you just start one um? So yeah, so that that kind of got the ball rolling and I, um, yeah, spoke to the people team, spoke to spoke to them, spoke to um one of the coaches, and they sort of all helped me just set it up and yeah, and then we kind of had like our first like little lunch together. How?
Speaker 1:yeah, how great that your team is one of the, the people that you um went to to ask about that was so open to it. Yeah, yes, let's definitely do this. Um, it was just kind of the need was there, but it hadn't, it hadn't been done yet. So, um, but so welcoming of you when, when you decided to go ahead and set it up yeah, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was really incredible, like the way people were about that. Yeah, it was just so. It just made it so easy, really, because I'd not done things like that before.
Speaker 1:So yeah yeah the work there are visible and you know where to find them and ask them their experiences. So, on that note, what are the primary goals to the group and how do you envision it evolving in the future?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, really it's kind of just a space for, like, women in engineering. So, yeah, kind of the primary goals goal is to just kind of get us together, because we're so spread out across different teams. Um, especially it's difficult because, um, it's like mostly a remote company, like people can only have to come in once every two weeks, so, yeah, it's hard to, yeah, have that visibility of of other women engineers. So, yeah, it's really just to get us together, talk about our experiences, um, learn about how we feel about things. Um, yeah, just have a space for that really. So it's, you know, fairly casual um at the moment and like quite young I would say, um, but yeah, I guess kind of in future it would be really nice to have it feel more established and have it kind of properly regularly meet up, get, you know, make sure day one that a woman joins engineering, like they know about it. Um, we're still trying to figure out how to communicate that.
Speaker 1:You know, pairing up, say, a junior and senior people to like mentor or give themed sessions, um, or see, see it evolving in that way, um, yeah, yeah and to share your experiences with one another as well, because the more you talk to people that are in a similar position that you are or you realize actually you know when we all have those moments in work where you think it's the imposter syndrome moment and you go, somebody's going to find me out, somebody's going to know I'm not meant to be here, and we all have those days.
Speaker 1:If you're in a group of other people that are similar thinking, similar things, you can just share that and you realize it's not just you and there are other people that have shared experiences, um, things, things that you're feeling um, and can share experiences of what they've had in the past as well, because they might now be in a safe space where they can share that in their current company at redgate, but they might have had experiences in the past that they've brought with them and that they'd love to, you know, share their pearls of wisdom with, with other ladies, um, that are also working in tech, so so it's given them the opportunity to to do that absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we actually had quite a good kind of remote session um a couple months ago. That was like, yeah, really talking about you know your experiences in the past or at redgate um, and yeah, it was kind of just that. It was like a lot of people felt really good about red gate, but not about kind of companies they had experienced their experiences at in their past. So, um, yeah that was a really good.
Speaker 1:That was a good thing to hear, yeah and to help the, the current ladies at red gate, because you're right, if you've all come from different backgrounds and you've all, you've found each other within red gate and you're not finding that to be a negative experience, but you can still um draw upon previous experiences to ensure that you know no one coming in has anything like that, then then you can share you know experiences in the past so that that doesn't happen, um, but it doesn't sound like it would anyway.
Speaker 1:Now we've a support group also. Ladies from different backgrounds um always super interesting as well, because I I love that on this podcast that we get to speak with people from all different walks of life and that some ladies are um you. They come from a very strong computer science background and then you get other ladies that transition into careers that are just nothing to do with tech and they find themselves working in the tech industry. And the more that you mix with peers in that way, the more that you hear those stories and hear where they come from, and hear where they come from and that people still have that stereotype that you have to be super nerdy and technical and be a coder to work in tech, and that is not always the case, and actually nine times out of ten, is not the case to be working in tech. So to hear that from other people you don't have that feeling of. Is that just me? Am I the only person in tech?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely yeah, and it's like I say like yeah, I mean really, I think the stereotype is just, you know, being that nerdy techie, I guess, male, cis, male person, um, that stereotype, yeah, it's just kind of, it's not true. Um, like it's actually really, like I was saying at the start, it's really helpful to have other skills around. Yeah, communication and working with other people and, um, yeah, I just the stereotype is is not actually, it doesn't actually fit, like you're not locked away in a room just coding on your own, like that's not how it works. So it is really good to, yeah, have have people and and women and you know I've got male software engineer friends that have said the same like they don't feel like they fit the stereotype and it's like, no, that's a good thing. I mean, that's what diversity of thought is and you know, like you say, having people from different backgrounds really helps with kind of bringing different things.
Speaker 1:So, yes, yeah, definitely, and um, obviously, redgate. Redgate is a corporate ambassador of she Can Code, so they're already very supportive of the wider tech industry as well and encouraging more women into the tech space and supporting the ladies at Redgate. But what do you think Redgate could be doing better or is already working on to attract more diverse talent?
Speaker 2:could be doing better or is already working on to attract more diverse talent. Yeah, I mean, I've yeah, I have to say I've been really impressed with what Redgate's already doing. Um, I mean, yeah, so there's a dedicated um like diversity and inclusion team and like an external consultant um that we work with as well. Um, and yeah, it sounds like there's been a lot of work on recruitment and making that better. So I think, um, stuff like um inclusive language and like job descriptions so like, yeah, not kind of gender coding it and having, like you know, stereotypically male wording um that a woman might look at and and think, oh, that's not me, you know. Um, yeah, things like that.
Speaker 2:Um, and there's a lot of conversations about it. Um, we've got a new ceo recently who was kind of really keen to talk about it as well, so that was cool. Um, yeah, from the top. Yeah, yeah, and even, um, just recently, we were talking about um how we didn't have any women interns this year, because redgate recruits a lot from, like, their intern pool. Um, so, yeah, I think they're gonna really make an effort to look into that and like why that is and how they can remove that as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is the first step, and that's the thing that the companies that are just taking the time to think like why, why is that happening and what can we do to address that? Um, and there are so many companies that are struggling to to find a diverse workforce, and it's just the the first step of thinking. Well, let's actually take a look at that. As you said, have a dedicated team um, which you have at red gate, and then finding a way of how are we going to address this and make sure that we move towards a more diverse team, because it's a challenge of all companies, but it's how do you do it and how do you measure your impact along the way as well?
Speaker 1:Some companies we have noticed that she can code they'll tick that box. They'll, you know, we tick the box and we're doing something and they'll send we love. They'll send one like tweet out on International Women's Day to congratulate everybody and that's it. You know that's the only thing that you do. So making sure that you not only notice that there's a problem, but actually you know, doing something um all year round and measuring your impact um as well, is, uh, it takes. It takes a lot, um, and it's not something that just happens overnight. It's something that will take, you know, um several years to to build into a company, um, but it's definitely a good, good start yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I've, yeah, I'm really impressed with, like, how much they're talking about it, um, yeah, I mean also not to mention kind of what you get once you join Redgate as well, like they just treat you so well. Um, I've really found that like incredible.
Speaker 1:So they must work really hard to retain their staff as well. By the sounds of it, they know that there is a shortage of women in tech, so once they get you, they're gonna work to to retain you definitely yeah, exactly, and I think that's what all companies should really be trying to do, like retaining the women that they get, like it's important, yeah, yeah and there are a lot of challenges, obviously, though, for the women that um do work in the tech industry.
Speaker 1:Um, there, there are challenges along the way. So what do you think are the biggest challenges for women, um that are that work in the engineering field today?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, it's a great question. I think, like, yeah, I mean, it's such a big problem. But I think you know, the portrayal of roles that women should have in society is still. It's just so ingrained, like just from when you're born. Like you get flooded with information from parents, the media, friends, like, oh, this, this thing, is suited more to women, this thing is suited more to men. You know, like boys are given the like engineering toy that you construct, and then little girls are given dolls, and you know, yeah, I think I think there's still a lot of subtle messaging like that that really influences it, and I think that's like a big challenge. I think that's starting to change, but you know, it takes a long time. Um, and yeah, and, and you know, we're still finding that like much fewer women are going into STEM than men. Um, and I think that's a big part of it.
Speaker 2:And yeah, and even something I was thinking about recently is like even the media that is is out there already of you know great women scientists or engineers in in film or media. They're usually the smartest person in the room or they've like gone through like great strife to you know, get to where they are and they're incredibly amazing. But I'm like, where are the like normal average women? Yeah, like it's, it's just, and you know, it's great, it's great to see that portrayal, but I almost very hard to relate it's. So, yeah, I just look at them and I'm like, oh my god, like I'm not like that you know I'm not the smartest person in the room how can I feel like I deserve to be here when that's kind of the only representation you see, or like a younger girl might see? So, yeah, I think I think that's quite a big, a big challenge, one of the biggest challenges.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, let's say it's one of the reasons um why we launched our awards program this year, because there are lots of lists for senior ladies and it's quite hard when you look at a list for senior women that work in tech and they are cios and ctos and you might not even want to reach that level yourself anyway. But trying to relate to somebody that has been in work that long, who is in a position perhaps you're not actually interested in being that high up, it's quite hard to think. Is that where I'm meant to be? And how? How do I, you know, take, take any from that. It's amazing that she's doing amazing things, but I don't really see myself in that position.
Speaker 1:So we deliberately created the award so it showcases more junior levels or throughout people's career stages. So just to highlight the ladies that are doing something earlier in their careers as well, because they're still doing amazing things. But it's more of an inspiration for people to see. You know, somebody might be a rising star and they've already done great things and it's something to aspire to. But you know that lady's only been in work a couple of years already, so it's almost easier to to relate to role models at a lower, at an earlier stage in their career, um than always seeing the the, you know, greatest female CIO in tech you know, yeah, yeah, that's really as well, but they can't relate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a really good point, I think, yeah, it's important to see role models that are relatable and, yeah, I know Redgate sponsored the Develop Her awards as well, so I've been seeing that kind of come up. But again, yeah, I still awards, yes, we love that one. Yeah, but I think, again I still feel that imposter syndrome so I'm like, oh, you know, I'm not gonna, I can't engage with this, because I'm what would I get in a war? Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, so maybe this is this is good, maybe this will get me to push you to nominate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and I know to remember to nominate other people as well, because if somebody nominated you, then you'd be like oh god, actually I am, I'm meant to be on that list. It's like everybody helping each other of you nominate and somebody nominates yeah um, just remembering, yeah, to help each other on the right, because you're right, you, you had that feeling of do I want to enter myself for this? Am I? Am I meant to be on this list?
Speaker 2:it's um, yeah, or like, who is this? Yeah, like who is this for? Like, is it for, you know? Yeah, early career? Yeah, because I can think of a couple people that I would nominate. But again, yeah, it doesn't. Yeah, I guess I haven't kind of engaged with it in that way.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, it's definitely a tough one. And what advice would you give to women who are considering a career in software engineering? So they haven't got in just yet, they're not considering an awards process just yet, um, but they're thinking about it. So any advice or anything that you wish somebody had told you before you went into engineering?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, I think I think what I would say is um, it's important to kind of learn. It's gonna sound cheap, but like, learn who you are and learn how you work best and really try and fit the company to you, and I guess that that might mean not prioritizing salary or not prioritizing you know something really cool that the company's doing. Um, I think being in engineering, especially early career, can be quite challenging. Um, because there's so much to learn and it does take time for you to become like really useful and stuff. So find a company that really like works for you and the way that you want to work, that that's really valuable, because then it will give you that space to grow and be supported. That might mean kind of trying, trying a few companies like um, yeah, as I say, this is my third, third company and I've I finally actually feel okay, whereas I think in my first two I I didn't. So, um, that means you reach a company and you go yep, yeah, you're like oh, thank god relief.
Speaker 1:Relief where you could just know everything else about it is great and you can get on with your job instead of worrying about other other things. That's kind of.
Speaker 2:Once you've been for a couple of companies, you then have that sigh of relief where you reach somewhere and go oh thank you, yeah, yeah, and I think also it's just, it's really yeah, it's basically really just important to back yourself like no matter what. Like you know, interviews are hard, um, when you join, like I say it's challenging, there's a lot to learn. Um, I think it's really important to you know, just have in yourself. Like you know, if I have, if I have the right information, if I have the right space, and backing yourself is really like having that sense of like you know you can do things if you have the right information, the right support, the right space to to do your job.
Speaker 2:You know you're in a job and you're in meetings you don't really know what the hell's going on, like. Actually coming back to that, like it might not be your fault, yeah, usually, usually it's like people aren't communicating at the right level or other people don't know what's going on either. So it's just kind of in these different situations, just just remembering that, because I think I struggled with that for like a long time and you know I've had some coaching and I do feel better about that now but like is it?
Speaker 1:is it me? Am I the only one?
Speaker 2:that's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess what's in here. Yeah, I found as well, when I've been at companies, um, and I've been in meetings, I've been confused about some companies and some teams. You go along with people like meetings for meetings sake, and I come out of them thinking, well, why did we have that? And we haven't moved forward, and it's okay. A couple of times you start to realize that's going to be the whole year for you and you come out feeling like I haven't achieved anything, that that's not a place that you want to stay. I mean me personally. I like to know that we're moving forward and ticking things off our list and we have something to show for it. Um, I think it's just some some company cultures, it's kind of meetings and meetings, and you quickly think this isn't for me. It's not necessarily wrong, but it's just not for me and I'm not really picking up anything from what we're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, about you and your future where do you see yourself, um, in the next few?
Speaker 2:years. So, yeah, like I say, I'm really trying to cultivate that like confidence in myself and, um, yeah, like this year, I'm trying to go for promotion at work. Um, so trying, yeah, get up to the next level of software engineering. Yeah, so yeah, and that's been really good, like my manager's been really helpful with um just telling me how to do that, the process and stuff.
Speaker 1:So trying to work my way up, um, it sounds like you get a lot of support as well to help you to the next stage of your career.
Speaker 2:So, um, it doesn't sound like you've been dropped in and you're not quite sure what's going to happen next, so yeah, like, yeah, I mean it's incredible like I get a line manager, one-to-one like every week if I want it, which is amazing. We formed our team and and my manager put on like a the thing called manual of me, if you've heard of that. It's where you like everyone kind of says how they work best and things they find difficult and that. So that was amazing. So, yeah, I could kind of say what I wanted in that and yeah, and I think at the moment where there's like a mural that's kind of showing every member of the team's like goals, so I can put that promotion goal on there and on there and reach it, yeah, it's been really supportive, yeah, yeah well, that is a lovely supportive, positive note to end it on, because we're already out of time and I keep picking your brains on being a software engineer at Redgate, but we are already out of time.
Speaker 1:So thank you so much, imogen, for coming on and having a chat, sharing a little bit about you and your challenges so far, and we'll have to have you back when you get your promotion.
Speaker 2:We want that in life, fingers crossed. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:To everybody, listening as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
