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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Navigating Product Development & Championing Diversity in Tech
Join us as we sit down with Marilyn Scott, a seasoned Senior Business Analyst and Proxy Product Owner at Expleo. Marilyn brings a wealth of experience in agile methodologies and product development, with a career marked by her ability to bridge complex business needs with technical solutions.
Marilyn shares her journey from traditional business analysis to her current role at the forefront of a telephony re-platforming project. She discusses the pivotal skills and mindset shifts necessary for anyone looking to transition into product development, emphasizing the importance of continuous learning and adaptation in a dynamic tech landscape.
Throughout the episode, Marilyn delves into the intersection of data analytics, coding, and product management, highlighting their crucial roles in driving innovation and informed decision-making. She provides actionable insights on how aspiring professionals can begin their journey into coding and data analysis, stressing the integration of these skills into modern product roles.
As a staunch advocate for diversity and inclusion in the tech industry, Marilyn also shares her experiences as a woman of ethnic background in a predominantly male field. Her commitment to mentorship and empowerment serves as an inspiring testament to overcoming challenges and achieving professional success.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing Navigating Product Development and Championing Diversity in Tech. I've got the amazing Marilyn Scott, a seasoned Senior Business Analyst and Proxy Product Owner at Xplio, with me today and she's here to share her journey and the pivotal skills and mindset shifts that are necessary for anyone looking to transition into product development. Welcome, marilyn. Lovely to have you on Spilling the Tea.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm so glad to be here and, you know, very honoured that you know you'd like to talk to me about my career and how I've navigated within the technology industry.
Speaker 1:Yes, we would love to hear all about that today, and I know our community are going to absolutely love to hear all about your journey and your advice along your career route. So can we kick off with a bit of background about you, if that's okay?
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm currently a consultant working for Xplio. My job specification is around business analysis, so I'm a senior business analyst with lots and lots of experience within technology IT but that isn't my background. So I worked in a contact center for several years before deciding to go back to school and learn something different, and at the time I was really passionate about business infrastructure and so I decided to do international business From there. I kind of navigated into IT consultancy and trained as a business analyst and that was the kind of the beginning of my journey within tech.
Speaker 1:Amazing. So you weren't one of those children. That kind of thought computer science is for me. You actually took international business and then went into consultancy. Did you ever think, now looking back, that you would work in technology?
Speaker 2:Absolutely not. I just kind of, after so many years of working within a contact centre, working with people I enjoyed working with project managers I started to learn about the more technical side of business and that's where I became more curious about technology. And you know, as the world's technologies evolving very fast, exponentially expanding and all of this globalization and just being able to connect and learn new things, it was just a natural thing for me yeah, yeah, and that's good.
Speaker 1:I love it when people say that I was working with lots of people and got to discover technology in that way as well. It is a myth that we tried to bust on spilling the tea, that you work on your own in technology and all you do is code and work on your own in a basement and that is it. But it's always great when people say actually I was. I almost discovered that I liked working with people and I liked working with teams and that led me to work in technology, because it's not there's. There is that stereotype around technology.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes, and I think that was my vision a dark room, a developer, preferably male, sat behind a computer doing something techie and just seeing all of this spillage of code that just couldn't decipher, couldn't understand, and it was like, ok, that's what I want to do. I want to learn more about technology. I want to even learn how to develop a product, develop a web page. Maybe one day, you know, my curiosity would expand to entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship, but just the whole idea of technology and what we see out there in the world. You know apple, google, samsung, all of these you know famous brands that have been so innovative. And yeah, that's just been kind of a driving force for me with a passion for sustainability.
Speaker 1:Absolutely love it yeah, yeah, I love that. And um we we have lots of ladies on here as well talk about, um how they fell into products. They didn't know that it was um a role that was even available um to be honest and so I would love to hear a little bit about. You know your journey, so um can you kick off with? Can you tell us a bit about your journey from traditional business analysis to product development? And what were the key challenges now? How did you overcome them along the way?
Speaker 2:Yes. So my journey kind of from the traditional business analysis world of requirements and process modelling and kind of optimization to product development was basically focused on my kind of curiosity around agile. So I wanted to know more about agile and you know product development and so, with my role being very heavily focused on understanding and documenting requirements, I wanted to add a number of additional layers to that. So I started to work with development teams so closely, with solution architects, trying to have conversations with the developers and the testers and product owners to learn more about that kind of agile world. At that time it wasn't per se known as agile, it was kind of Scrum. Everything was just Scrum. Let's just incorporate Scrum cadence and let's have these daily stand-ups and these retrospectives and planning sessions.
Speaker 2:Um, but agile wasn't at that time kind of the, the mindset. Um, but for some reason I was able to navigate and work on a number of projects where I was literally in reality face-to-face with a developer or a tester, with facilitating meetings. I was getting to know about what they do and, most recently, product development and understanding that, wanting to be more involved in that product development lifecycle. So one of the key challenges was shifting my mindset from a purely kind of analytical, methodical perspective to a more holistic, product focused approach and also that value driven approach. And this involved not just understanding what the business needed but also why it was necessary, you know, and how it could be best implemented. So understanding how I could deliver value and transition a change into BAU, you know, was super interesting and important to me and I overcame this immersing kind of self-doubt by just getting involved, understanding agile methodologies, learning to think like a product owner and just continuously seeking opportunities to kind of bridge that gap between the business needs and the technical solutions technical solutions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and and you mentioned this, this shift, um, because you, obviously there is a shift in mindset when, when you move to product development, and the way you spoke about that was, um, you said, when you first started talking to the development teams and and learning different things, what was that like for you? Was that quite daunting? Did you think I have to be really technical to be able to talk to these really techie people, or were you quite relieved? Actually, you just need to be a good communicator.
Speaker 2:A bit of both. I think I've always had this saying in the back of my mind, which is there, always has to be, and, you know, trying to try and develop an open communication climate. So everyone it's not just about hearing, it's about listening that everyone has valuable input and insights and no question is a silly question and all of that good stuff. I think it was daunting to start off with because it was a shift from actually business analysts like the autonomy of sitting around their laptops and just working in a silo kind of fashion of data analysis, pulling together data gathering, intel and doing it in a very structured and methodical way. So for me it was okay. Well, first of all, I have to be confident in what I do. So business analysis is something that you know. It's a doddle to me, like every project has its own challenges, but there is a service framework framework. You know what to apply. There's certain techniques and tools that are attached to services and sub-services. So it's, you know there's, there's always a tool or a technique or someone that you can talk to to gather that information, whereas working with the technical people the language was different, even though communication is super important to me absolutely advocate for collaboration.
Speaker 2:It was understanding some of the terminologies that they were using and because they were expertise you know they weren't graduates starting out in their career they were people that had talents and you know they were gifted. They knew what they were doing, and so I embraced that. As you know, I can learn something new, I can enhance my knowledge, I can become more aware, I can start asking more technical questions, and that's where I then started to incorporate kind of like what courses? So, for example, I'd use Udemy LinkedIn. I would speak to the trainers. Yes, I was constantly just trying to evolve and develop my knowledge set. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You mentioned in language. There we have some uh at our last hackathon that came along. They were from um products and they said the same thing that um. So our hackathons are not just the very technical people. We always encourage anyone to come along and just just try it for the day. We have mentors to help you. But some of those ladies were from products and they they said the same thing. They said I would like to learn today more about the language so I can go back and work with my teams and much more effectively. So they came along just to hear the type of things that was spoken about during the projects that day and they did work on some great projects as well. But you're right, it must be quite daunting to have to soak that up at first, yeah, I think there's.
Speaker 2:There is a natural transition from a business analyst to a product owner. If that's you know, if you're thinking how do I navigate that, I think we hold a lot of skills that are transferable. Um, a product owner owns the product. So they have the vision for the product, they set the goals, they have the business outcome, so they kind of find everything off from you know, delivering functionalities and features and if there's any bug fixes, and so you know.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like you own a baby, it's yours and you need to live and breathe that, but you also have to. It can become that that is your only kind of niche. So you know, I think there is with product ownership, it's good to learn the technical aspect of it because you can always apply it to and develop your own kind of laboratory of products. The more you understand the technical side of things from my perspective, the more products that you can own, and I think that's I would want to have a diversity of products to to own and to further develop. I think that's just where I see myself yeah heading in that direction.
Speaker 2:So the technical aspect I mean if you, if you've got um, you've got, you know, third party developing um, a product and you have internal testers I mean it's very important to be able to support that whole communication piece between an external and the internal teams that sometimes they work in different ways. The internal team may use Scrum, they may use, you know, Crystal. Whatever you know ways of working they have may be different. And how do you kind of align those? How do you ensure that everyone's on the same frequency? And also supporting the testers or the developers, where they may have even knowledge gaps with the technical aspect, you know to give them recommendations or you know even to relay that back to a scrum master or to have those conversations with the agile coach or whoever supporting in terms of the development of knowledge around that particular product. So it's all exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the good thing about technology, isn't it? It's all exciting and it's all moving all the time, which is something that is just great about working in the tech industry time, which is something that is just great about working in the tech industry.
Speaker 1:Um, I think a lot of us that work in tech they wish that some people had told us some things before we got started, so I'd love to keep your brains on that. But for someone starting out, what? What advice would you give them on? You know, learning, coding and data analysis? Any resources you'd recommend? You mentioned udemy previously. Um unity loved that. Um is it. Is there anything else, or is that the best place to get started?
Speaker 2:so there's there's many, many platforms that you can use. For me it's. I would recommend finding a mentor. So I have a mentor who is she's like a genius he knows a lot. It doesn't have to be a male or female. I'm not telling you to go out and find a male genius, but you do need someone that can help to guide you and shape you and carve out some of that training that you can literally apply in reality. So I think finding a mentor is super important.
Speaker 2:But clearly understanding fundamentals so understanding the fundamentals of coding, whether that's SQL or Python, you know start off with some dummy courses and crash courses. Data analysis these fields are very vast, so it's important to focus on the basics before diving into more complex topics. So Python, which is both beginner friendly and widely used in data analysis and product development, I would recommend that AI, ai and Python together. I would recommend that AI, ai and Python together. Sql, using tools like SQL, excel, tableau, power BI. Try and just find something that works for you. That will help you not just hear, but listen and soaking that information.
Speaker 2:There's lots of books out there, so there's Foster Provost and Tom Fawcett. You know you could join online communities if you think about LinkedIn, there's hundreds, maybe thousands, stack Overflow, github is one that I would recommend. I've used and they can provide the practical experience and support. There are other, like games and tools, that you can use, but, like I said, a mentor to help guide you, because technology is it's so vast. And even for me, most recently, I've learned how to read code. I'm still trying to do that. I've also I've got a course on DevOps, which is to learn all of the fundamentals around that particular expertise data analytics, fundamentals, you know, know, data science for business. Uh, there's just so much out there and I think, yeah, starting with the fundamentals, starting with the beginner, beginner, call uh courses. Yeah, that's really important. Yeah, I kind of my apologies that's okay.
Speaker 1:No, it was brilliant. There was. There was lots of advice in this, so don't worry, um. In our community, a lot of the questions that seem to be pitched are um, do I have to spend a lot of money on courses and resources and a lot of time and effort sometimes just to find out that it's not for you anyway? Did you do that? Or did you start with you know free things and then kind of figured out what you wanted and then perhaps made an investment? Then?
Speaker 2:so, because I work for IT and a technology and engineering, as Xplio, I have access to Udemy courses. I have also invested in LinkedIn and I think LinkedIn is good because you're focused on professional development and also you can reach out and you can network and people can provide you with recommendations. You can look at people's profiles and you can see what certifications they've done, see if it's something that is relevant to you. I think spending money on books and courses, don't do it unless it's something that you really believe will add value to your knowledge base and that will help to enhance your career. So really think about if you're going to spend a thousand pounds on a course. Do I need it, you know? Is it going to add any value? Is it going to help me secure this particular type of project or, you know, or secure this particular job that will, you know, increase your salary?
Speaker 2:I would say start small, yes, start small. Invest, you know, 20, 30, 40 pounds into a learning platform. Look at the star ratings, look at the number of people who've taken that course and invest, invest some time. But, yes, definitely, I think continuous learning, you know it's been a cornerstone in my career growth. Certainly. I remember the first time I started. Well, I've been with Xplio for over three years now. The first year I did about 120 courses.
Speaker 2:I'm not telling anyone to go out there and do 120 courses, but this was a blog, a recommended blog. Or you know a five minute training or an hour training, but they were all recommended training courses. Or or you know e-learnings and they had enhanced my knowledge and I wouldn't be here today without that whole journey. Um, and I think you know, always invest time. So sometimes I even think to myself well, how many books have I read this year and what is it that I really? So sometimes we can think that one course it sounds amazing, you know, but is it realistic? Is it something that you need in the here and the now? Will it help to add that additional value? Will it open up, unlock some of cover, some of the great areas that you have in your current role, you know?
Speaker 2:So I think you know it's really important to make sure that you're staying current in terms of technology, which is always evolving rapidly, always evolving rapidly. So I just approach it by setting aside time each week to explore new tools and technologies and methodologies. I'm very kind of creative in the sense that I've got an innovative mindset where I don't have to do the standard things. I can be creative, do the standard things, I can be creative, I can test. You know test things. Like you know, there's this saying about failing fast. Failing fast gives you the opportunity to also learn fast and apply your new learnings to future projects. So, yeah, definitely new learnings to future projects. So, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:Even just attending webinars and reading industry blogs, this is all part of your learning journey and you can tick that off as a course or, as you know, as something that you've invested in to develop your knowledge yeah, and it sounds like as well, your, your approach to that is something that is very much supported by your employer, because it sounds like they encourage you to do that, that they offer you the courses, they give you the time as well, because there are lots of employers that don't really set aside time for your development as well. That's absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um, that's the amazing benefit of working for Xplio, because you do have the opportunity. You get allocated a number of days per year. You get the opportunity to look at a vast array of courses. Obviously, there are some guidelines around what you may deem to be appropriate. So if I'm a business analyst and I'm trying to take a program manager course, then it would be well. What value is that going to add to your career, you know? And it's about applying your learning. So I mean, that's just, that's just been my journey, but there isn't.
Speaker 2:If you can find a consultancy or an organization that will invest in your learning, which was a key requirement of mine, then that is absolutely brilliant and it's to your advantage, because courses can be expensive. But look, there's, there's so much free resources. I mean, youtube is amazing, you know, even for revision techniques you can find a lot of free resources. It's out there. Just look at the feedback that people have provided on that particular course. You know, was it good? Did it provide the clarity? Did it close some of the knowledge gaps? Did it help to build and help you out of a tricky situation? You know, and also leveraging ai, for example, chat gbt you can use chat gbt to find free resources, to find even academic journal articles. They're worth reading because even just reading the abstract, the introduction and the conclusion will give you a lot of information, new knowledge. That's what?
Speaker 1:yeah, there's a lot out there yeah, that's a really good tip, at least asking um where to find some good resources. To narrow down, you are right, there are lots available out there. You're obviously finding your way and you found yourself in a good employer that is helping you along the way with your learning development. But I want to ask you a little bit about your challenges along the way as well. So, as a woman from an ethnic background in a predominantly male industry, what challenges have you faced and how have you overcome them?
Speaker 2:So, being a woman of ethnicity and in a predominantly male industry, sometimes I kind of don't I don't try to look at it from a, and you know, from a I wouldn't say pessimistic or negative. Um, I'm because I am ethnic, you know, and sometimes I do feel that potentially that's a reason why I don't last on a project too long, or they they kind of move me around, um to different projects, or they kind of take me off a project and replace me with someone else and it's all okay because it's just the business requirement. So I don't know if it's because of my ethnic background. I do feel that discrimination comes in all different forms and I would be doing myself an injustice to be always focused on that.
Speaker 2:It definitely is a predominantly male industry and I have recently spoken to my mentor who attended a conference and said that women in IT the percentage is actually decreasing, even though we're really trying to advocate for more women in IT. It's something that will take time and for me I need to have patience and I know that's one of my areas of weakness. Sometimes I want to maybe sometimes present a solution too quickly or I think I can turn something around in a lot less time than in reality it would take. I think, with male and female, there's always instances of unconscious bias and the constant need to prove my capabilities, and that's one thing I've just naturally kind of become numb to like. I have to prove myself more, I have to um invest more in um education and learning, and it's what I call de-risking the more competent you are, the more certifications you're.
Speaker 2:They can never take that away from you. So in a way, it's it's de-risking and that's where I've kind of found my strength. But I'll take it as a unique perspective and experience and which will allow me to deliver or bring a different viewpoint to the table. Yeah, um, sometimes it can be stressful and sometimes you can feel anxious, and I think it's very important to be open, honest and transparent, but also think about how things are impacting you personally, because self-care, self-well-being, is really important, is really important, and there is still a lot of barriers. So, men, I've had a comment recently where they don't want to hear women's problems. You know, well, I had to take my child to childcare or to school, and well, they don't want to hear that. So my instant reaction was well, I think it's about time that the husbands and the fathers start taking the kids to school too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I knew that.
Speaker 2:Helping the women, the mothers, the super women that are, you know, taking care of the kids and juggling a job at the same time as well as studying. It's a hard compromise, it really is. So I think we're all striving for equality and diversity, but we want it to be more of an action, and that will only happen in time. So I think, for me and for anyone, the advice that I would give we do sometimes feel inferior, you know, as women in IT is just to build strong networks of support. You know, whether that's within or outside the organization.
Speaker 2:Like I said, mentorship that has played a critical role in my journey and I've had both male and female mentors, and it could be that they're just with you for a moment, but they've added some value. They've helped, helped you to break down some of the barriers, or climb a mountain and, even though it feels uncomfortable, if you reflect, you'll see that you are making progress, because sometimes it is just within the mind it's you are winning, but you just can't see that. Um, so mentorship provide, uh, you know that provides you the guidance and encouragement you know when faced with obstacles. Um, but also being proactive, you, you know, advocate for yourself and for others. So I feel like I would want people to treat me in a certain way and you know I would want to see certain opportunities. I am someone else's biggest cheerleader because I would want to be treated in a certain way. I would want somebody else to be treated equally.
Speaker 1:So, you know, always cheerleading for others, supporting others, ensuring diverse voices are heard and valued that's really important to me yeah, because I want, I wanted to ask you about that how underrepresented groups and women they can be better supported in their career journeys, in tech and you're.
Speaker 1:You're so right in some of those things. Some of the main things there are just mentor and almost finding not just your own cheerleaders but be remembering to be cheerleaders for other people as well. We've noticed from some of the companies that that we work with that some of them are so invested in not just paying lip service to something. They really do look into their workforce, why people are leaving, why people want to stay at some companies and and not others. And, um, you know, things like the training that you get at Xblio and things like that, things that they are learning and development is obviously very important to you and that's going to keep you within your company. But there are lots of companies out there that are, you know, almost wondering what they're getting wrong and perhaps are just not really looking internally enough that changes can be made.
Speaker 2:Absolutely For me and this might be my own, just my own kind of feelings about organizations. They are artificial, they don't have feelings. If you kick a company, an organization, it will not feel pain. It's people that make decisions.
Speaker 2:So I think sustainability even though you've got your customers at the heart of everything you do and your data informs how you can better shape and improve processes and everything else and better support your customers but sustainability is everything. It's at the forefront. You know we're talking about the triple bottom line, so looking after the people, looking after the profits, but also looking after the planet. So when we think about sustainability, you know it's such a huge topic, right? So you've got ESG, which is your environmental, social and governance factors, and I guess under social, that's where your people will sit.
Speaker 2:For example, the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive has expanded the number of organizations that need to report on their sustainability metrics. So things like attrition, diversity, all of this good stuff needs to be reported, which means that they also need to evidence and showcase exactly what they've been doing within the organisation. And I know Xplio are doing a lot in terms of creating an employee forum, creating representatives across the various locations. So there's lots that organisations can be doing and should be doing and must do to ensure the safety of their people and also to enhance their practices and their processes. And you know it's not just about profitability, you know there's everything else. Corporations they have such vast amounts of capital that we could eradicate poverty. They could do a whole lot more. And I think it's not just about the external environment, it's also about the internal environment. So people need to be. Organizations need to invest in people a whole lot more definitely yes.
Speaker 1:I think that's a whole other cast in itself. I definitely agree with you on that. I would love to keep picking your brains on this subject, but we're almost out of time and I wanted to ask you one last question about your future. You mentioned a passion for transitioning careers into product development and delivery. Can you tell us more about your vision for your future career, including your aspiration to own a laboratory of products?
Speaker 2:It's crazy, right? Will it ever happen? Will it ever happen? That's the million dollar question, but I guess that's just kind of a vision for the future Creating a laboratory of products where innovation and experimentation are at the forefront.
Speaker 2:So I love, I would love, to develop my own products or actually have multiple products that I expertise in, expertise in.
Speaker 2:So you know if, for example, in five, ten years time, I was still working for Xplio, for example, I'd be that go-to person for those particular products. So I think innovation, experimentation, entrepreneurship is something that is kind of at the forefront of you. You know where I'd like to maybe end my career, so you know, having a space where I can, you know, lead on ideas and you know they can be developed into rapidly, into prototypes, they can be tested and refined, and just being able to be part of that continuous development of products and to solve, like real world problems. So I love collaboration and this laboratory would be collaborative environment, so it would bring together diverse teams with expertise in various different areas, teams with expertise in various different areas, whether it's coding, data analysis, user experience, product management. And I love the idea of fostering creativity while maintaining a strong focus on delivering value to customers and I believe that, combining agile methodologies with a culture of experimentation, that we can create products that will resonate with users and drive meaningful impact.
Speaker 1:Amazing. That is a lovely goal to set yourself and how lovely as well that tech is that creative and that you can be that creative in your role and you can think you know I would love you can be that creative in your role and you can think, you know I would love to get to that point in my career where I'm doing that, where we have an even more creative environment. But that that isn't, that's not a pipe dream. That is actually something that you can move towards within your career, because that's just the beauty of being in tech and how flexible we can be in our careers in tech and I think it also it's the fact that you can.
Speaker 2:You can be flexible, you can be adaptable, you know, as well as navigating through a dynamic environment, landscape, such as as tech, I just think the world is your oyster, women. You can achieve anything that you put your mind to and never let anyone tell you otherwise. There are so much resources out there. And if you can just find the time to really sit down and put together a plan, you know, start journaling, start, you know just writing about your thoughts and your intentions, and you know what you want to achieve and find a mentor and share those visions with someone. So I think a lot of the time it's in the mind.
Speaker 2:We want to achieve so many things, but it's about bringing that to life, isn't it? It's about talking about it, illuminating it and just seeing. Actually, where can I, how far can I push myself in this space? And it may be, you know, it may be thousands of miles. It may be, you know, a leap. It may be two steps backwards and three steps forwards, but you will learn something you know and that will help to continue to carve out your career and you as a person.
Speaker 1:so yeah, amazing that that is lovely advice to end it on today, a really lovely positive note for everybody listening. Um, because we are already out of time, I'm afraid. So, marilyn, thank you so much for coming on here and having a chat. It's been an absolute pleasure hearing all about your journey. So thank you for taking time out of your super busy day.
Speaker 2:My pleasure Anytime, and thank you again for the opportunity.
Speaker 1:Thank you for everybody listening as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again for the opportunity. Thank you for everybody listening as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
