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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Embracing Diversity in Tech: Insights from N Brown
Join us for an inspiring episode as we sit down with Stacey Hudson and Diane Roland from N Brown. Get an inside look at their dynamic journey toward fostering diversity within the company. Stacey and Diane reveal the strategies N Brown is using to attract and retain more women in tech, including flexible working arrangements designed to support retention and leadership development.
Diane, a 22-year veteran at N Brown, shares her personal story of navigating maternity leave three times and how these experiences propelled her into a leadership role.
We’ll also explore the crucial role of male allies in driving meaningful change and creating an inclusive environment for everyone. Stacey and Diane emphasize that while N Brown is committed to hiring the best person for each role, they are equally dedicated to ensuring a diverse candidate pool.
Tune in for practical advice, insightful stories, and a candid discussion on N Brown’s ongoing efforts to enhance diversity in tech. Discover how they balance excellence with inclusivity and continuously strive to move the needle forward.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we're discussing embracing diversity in tech insights from the Enbrown Group. You'll know some of Enbrown Group's brands, such as JD Williams, simply B and Giacomo. I've got two incredible ladies from the Enbrown Group with me today, stacey Hudson and Diane Rowland, who are here to discuss their own career journeys and the strategies that the Enbrown Group is using to attract and retain more women in tech. Welcome, ladies. Thank you so much for joining Spinning the Tea today. I love Stacey. It's a pleasure to have you both here.
Speaker 1:We're going to start with some introductions, so, stacey, can we start with a little bit about you, your background and how you ended up at the Enbrown Group?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:So I have been with Enbrown now for around about six and a half years. I initially started at Enbrown on a maternity contract and then, around about six months in, I had the opportunity to go permanent, which I was really pleased to do because as soon as I started in this business, I just really loved it, loved the people, our marketing and brand teams. So that was my kind of background. I worked in recruitment for many years and then in 2019, I had the opportunity to step in to supporting our technology teams and I had never recruited um, never recruited in technology. And I think I remember Diane and I think I'm sure it was you, but I remember one of the first meetings I had, you know, as soon as I kind of was like introduced to the leadership team in technology and I sat down with you know all of the directors and heads off, and I think one of my first meetings was with you, diane, and I don't know if you remember and I remember saying to you what is DevOps? I don't know what that is um and um, I had no clue. I you know recruitment is my specialism, but actually in terms of industry, in terms of like industry, I'd never recruited in technology. So it took me a long time and actually the patience and the support that I received from our tech community here at M Brown to understanding and learning what it means to work in technology and all the different um, everything from languages and ways of working, and it's a minefield, um, for someone who had never you know, never had a clue. As I say, I didn't know what devops meant at the time.
Speaker 2:Um, so, um, yeah, so I've been now looking after technology for about four and a half years and my role would be everything from looking at our kind of talent acquisition strategy how do we attract top talent to work for En brown? How do we get our employer brand out there? Um, obviously you know everything from writing job adverts to uh, interviewing, to onboarding um, and and really over the last few years, obviously, being a woman working within a male dominated industry of what tech is, I think I was starting to really ask the question about where's the diversity, I guess, in terms of where are all these people? How do we find them? So a lot of what I've spent my time on over the last kind of two, three years is really trying to understand that landscape, and it's something I'm really passionate about and it's something that anything that I can do to support Enbrown as a business, as well as our technology teams, in terms of finding and attracting more diverse talents to the business, is something that I spend a lot of my time thinking about, talking about.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's just a bit about me and my role really amazing is we we love it honestly can cope when people say they don't come from a traditional tech background. They still find themselves working in the tech industry in interesting roles. Um, that you, you embrace that as well. That you didn't find it. I mean, it sounds like when you first started thinking what's devops? You know you, you have that thought of. Oh my, you didn't find it. I mean it sounds like when you first started thinking what's DevOps? You know you have that thought of. Oh my gosh, how am I going to pick this up? But actually anybody can learn about the tech industry and work in it at any point in their career, as long as they just embrace the opportunities that come their way, absolutely, and just asking questions as well, like no question is a silly question.
Speaker 2:Everybody's got to start from somewhere. So I was, I'd say, really, really lucky to be surrounded by people who, you know, are like rewind. Let's just explain that in terms that I can understand and then build on. So, yeah, it's been a, and also I I suppose you've never quite finished learning, I think, especially because tech is ever evolving, so you have to kind of always be asking those types of questions. Has this changed? What? What does this mean? I haven't seen this before. Can you just explain this? Um, and that's. I guess that's how you get the best out of people, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, and Diane yourself. What's your journey look like? How did you find your way into the tech industry and how did you end up at the Embrun Group?
Speaker 3:So very similar, really Not from a tech background at all. So I actually started at Embr um as a graduate 22 years ago. It seems like such a long time ago, but, yeah, also doesn't seem like that long ago quite scarily. Um, I have no background in it. I just finished a psychology degree and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do when I finished um, so kind of jumped on the bandwagon of let's go look at some graduate jobs and just see what's out there.
Speaker 3:Uh, applied for a few different things and then, off the back of that, ended up being offered a job as a mainframe programmer with n brown, so a three-month course. At the time my brother thought it was quite hysterical that I'd got the job because I just wasn't into computers at all and he was really into kind of this stuff. And he was just like, what are you doing? I was like, well, my brother thought it was quite hysterical that I'd got the job because I just wasn't into computers at all and he was really into kind of this stuff. And he was just like, what are you doing? I was like, well, I don't know, but I'm going to try, I'm going to give it a go. It's something different I've not done and I love learning new things. So yeah, I really enjoyed learning something new, did the three month course, learned all about a whole world I didn't know anything about, did okay, did good at it, made some really great friends on the graduate course that I was on as well, that I'm still friends with today. And as I went on I kind of realized that I like working more with people than kind of just full time head down in screen coding. So I got the opportunity with M Brown to kind of move around and try some different things as well. So did some system analysis, some business analysis and then kind of went through to project management as well, undertaking my school master training. So I've done a number of different roles really in my time with M Brown. So it kind of doesn't feel like I've been here for 22 years because I've done so many different roles while I've been here. And I actually I think when I started I kind of said I'll do this job for two years and then I'll move on and do something different.
Speaker 3:Um, and I think the reason I'm still here after this period of time really is probably two factors. One, it's the people at M Brown. I've really enjoyed. It's such a you know a great group of people, and everyone who ever leaves always says I'm going to miss the people, and it's true, um, that that's a big factor. But also just what stacy said about the always learning. This is something, you know, I've. I feel like every day I'm still learning and there's so much to learn and technology changes at such a pace, um, that there is so much to learn.
Speaker 3:Um, the last few years I've been doing the role of the head of cloud and platform, so obviously a lot of businesses are now moving to the cloud.
Speaker 3:It's a really fast-paced technology advancement loads of new services that people at AWS release every day.
Speaker 3:So, again, so much to learn, which we've got our head around. And I work with the platform team, who I call kind of building the foundations of a house. So in my mind, we build the foundations, the developers build the house on top and then the UI guys kind of put the curtains in, and so forth is the way I like to kind of analogize it in that way. But we've got a really great team here that I love working with and I've actually found that, although coming from a degree in psychology seems a complete world away. It's actually been really in my day-to-day, because I have a strong focus on people and I love the people I work with and trying to get the best out of them, and I find that that's kind of really given me that ability to look at things from a slightly different angle rather than just coming from the technology angle. So, yeah, I've really enjoyed that and we've done some great work in terms of the stuff that we've built so far.
Speaker 1:I mean they've definitely done something right to keep you for 22 years. I'm always curious what does your brother say now, 22 years later? We both do a very similar role now.
Speaker 3:It's quite interesting. He lives in London but we do similar roles, but for different companies. So, yeah, he still, to this day, you know, finds strange because he's he's so into it and into another level. Um, but yeah, we can actually talk about some of the same stuff now and have some conversations around things that we would never have been able to do years ago. So, yeah, no, it's really good amazing.
Speaker 1:I was talking to a lady the other day about um. She was another lady who'd been at a tech company for for um a long and we were discussing that there are just these little pockets of the industry that people don't realise and some companies are just so good at retaining their staff and, like you said, you've moved around, you've tried different things and, like with this other company, she said to me people don't think about leaving, they think about moving departments, and that's usually a sign of a good employer. People just say I really I don't want to leave this company because it's great to work here, but I would like to try something new, which is a very natural thought and people will naturally do that as they move through their careers. Um, but some companies are just very good at retaining their staff and you're obviously one of them.
Speaker 3:I think part of that as well is, you know, I've been luckily enough through my career that I've actually had three children while I've been here as well, and you know I felt really supported in that I wasn't penalised for taking time off with my children. I was lucky enough to kind of have a year off with each child, which is, you know, not a lot of people get to do. But I was fortunate that my roles were still here when I came back. So you know, the ability to be able to have that family life and also retain that career and that working life has just been really, really good for me really, and I think it's been a huge factor in staying.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. I see, Stacey, what you said about you joined on a on a mat contract. That's quite interesting as well, because you it's almost like Enbrown notice, they notice talent that comes in from anywhere. Really, whether you're going on mat, leave on a on a mat contract and then think how do we, how do we just retain the people that come our way, I suppose it's um, it's because you think of, you know um n brown's brands very well. When we say them um, but not not always the company name, so it's it's um. It's always great when you hear these, these companies that you know people are just just staying and they've found something great about that company and they stay um.
Speaker 2:They're definitely getting something right at enbrown yeah, it's the first question, it's the first thing I ask. If I speak to someone over the phone um say, for example, I don't know if they've applied for a job, um, first thing I say is, do you know about enbrown? Do you know who we are and what we do? Um, and sometimes it's um, yeah, you have retail, you retail, aren't you? And I was like yeah, and then when you actually start listing off, you know we've been around for 160 years, we've got all these brands. We're based in manchester, you know it all. You know it's. It's um. You know we've had shops. We were very much kind of catalog based and over the last few years we've gone kind of really the focus on obviously being a pure play digital business. So, um, yeah, I think it's um, it's that kind of almost like telling that story and and and opening up kind of who we are and what we do and why we're here.
Speaker 1:Really, yeah, definitely. And, diane, having been at Embraer for 22 years, how have you seen the company evolve in terms of diversity and inclusion? You must have seen quite a change over that time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I mean the world's changed a lot in that time, hasn't it but?
Speaker 2:certainly at Brown.
Speaker 3:House as well. You know, when I first started, I think there was two companies to women on my graduate course, I think it was 10 or 11. So it was great, great to have another woman there with me as well. But I think, you know, I think I was fortunate enough in those early days that I had a really great female line manager at the time who really pushed me and really kind of made me think about that next role and how I could go, and I think she really set me off on that journey and it probably was a little bit less familiar at that time that many years ago in terms of you know, and it was great to have that kind of push from someone in a similar kind of position.
Speaker 3:I think I've seen a massive change in kind of diversity and inclusion over the time I've been here in a number of ways. I think the company thought a lot about how to support people in work, whether it's things like age related, the sexuality, ethnicity or all the different areas that we can in diversity. I think the company's really embraced um, people generally are a lot more conscious around diversity and inclusion and I feel Embran are really trying to ensure that they give the right support. They've set up a number of communities, um Stacey, you can go into them in more detail than me, um, but there's a number of communities that we've set up that really support people in each of those areas, and I think that just puts that key focus on making sure that we are providing the right environment for um the different groups of people that we employ and we are targeting areas and things that we should be doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love the fact that you said communities and it wasn't just a group, because somebody said to me when we started this podcast, one of the first things somebody said to me was it's more than setting up a slack group, and that you use even use the word communities means that it doesn't sound like you just set up a slack channel and you occasionally drop things in there. I take it is a lot more than than that yeah.
Speaker 2:So I guess when we think about equity, diversity, inclusion and belonging at m brown group, it's very much um encouraging everyone at m brown to take the time to listen, to learn to add their ideas.
Speaker 2:You know voice, use their voice. We have an embrace strategy um which is a strategic element of our business and culture. The five communities that we have have been established for quite some time now and actually that's led by our colleagues. We do also have, across each of those communities, an exec sponsor. So I think from our perspective, it's very much about providing those spaces for people to feel comfortable and confident in sharing their experiences, whether that's Women and Allies, whether that's Jen Brown, our Rainbow Alliance, our rainbow alliance, and we have an accessibility and allies community and we have a multicultural and multicultural and allies community, and so that's something that has really opened up and we've had some really great ideas from it and you know, some small little changes that we can make around the business to make sure that everybody feels like they belong and they are included. So I think certainly kind of creating that environment where everybody feels comfortable discussing and addressing those diversity issues. And you know you said it before, diane it's all about.
Speaker 1:You know, those that that kind of confidence and feeling safe to do so um and I think that's something that we do really well um here certainly having a, an exec sponsor, makes such a difference when that comes from the top down and somebody is leading that from the top, that that makes such a difference to a company.
Speaker 3:Um, and then it you know it's not, it's not again it's not just a slack group, but it is actually something that is worked into your dna you're not just saying lip service to it, you really are just, you know, showing that there's a real buy-in from the company, which is important, definitely, yes definitely um.
Speaker 1:On that note, can you share some flexible working options that n brown offers and how they have impacted employee satisfaction and retention? Definitely got retention down to a 10, so um can you share some flexible working options?
Speaker 3:so personally I'll let stacy go into the the kind of the more people team view on it.
Speaker 3:Um, personally, I've been really fortunate that I've had flexible working approved when I came back after my first child. This has been really invaluable for me again in making me want to remain at M Brown and have that really good work life balance. I know others too who have also managed to have flexible working options to support their needs here, and I think it's really important to at least review people's requests. It's not always going to be possible to give them that based on, you know, a number of different factors, but I think it's important to review it and make people feel like it has been considered with valid reasons. Why not if that's the case? But I also think it's give and take as well, because where a business can accommodate a need for somebody, they're going to then be more willing to put themselves out as well to go that extra mile for the company in other ways. So I think you know there is a lot of give and take there. But anyway, over to you.
Speaker 2:Stacy for me, yeah no, I think, diane, you you really kind of hit the nail on the head there.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, yes, we have colleagues, um who work, you know, three, four, five days a week, um, and I think it comes down to um, that kind of conversation with with the kind of leader as well, in understanding you know how, how can say, for example, if, if someone has been off you know it's not always maternity leave, for example, but you know it's making sure that that person is coming in and feeling comfortable and the business is really looking at right, how can we get the best out of this person? You know, and being flexible, where we can be, it's, yeah, I think every business should um, you know, you hear it a lot more now, don't you? Um? And what we don't want to do is, um, I think it's really important in any business is ensuring that those who are working, no matter how many days a week you work, they all have the same opportunities for development for um, you know, for whatever they want to do in their career. So so, yeah, I think it's, I think it's good to have that flexibility and I'm really I think it's something that we're really proud of that we offer here yes, and and I I love the fact, um, diane, that you mentioned as well people go above and beyond when that happens.
Speaker 1:And you're right, stacey, that having that, having that built in and no matter how many days a week you work, and having those opportunities, just means that people have a different mindset. So I remember the companies that I've worked at where that has happened, I have thought to myself perhaps on a Sunday afternoon, I'm winding down, I have a couple of hours and I want to just do something I didn't get to finish in the week. And I don't have the thought of I'm not doing that because I don't like where I'm working. I think I do that because it helps me, it helps the company, it helps me to get ahead for the week on something that I'm really looking forward to working on. And I'll have managers at the time say you know you really you really shouldn't be doing that either. You know they do make sure that they point that out.
Speaker 1:But I never felt bad about it because I always loved what I was doing, whereas some companies where I haven't loved what I was doing, I thought that's it five o'clock, I am not doing anything else, and that is it every single evening and it's such a different mindset of um.
Speaker 1:You know where you would like to stay and how you work and how you work around, whether or not a company gives you a little bit of flexibility when you really do need it. Um, it makes such a difference to your mental health as well in the week and um something, uh obviously it's a phrase that a lot of people have heard the sunday scaries. Um, when you start getting those Sunday scaries and you start thinking I don't want to go back to work on the Monday, that's, that's that point where you know like, perhaps I, perhaps that company doesn't um appreciate me, or perhaps I've, you know, come to the end of my road there, um, and that's kind of that feeling that you get. But, diane, I take take it out 22 years you've never had the sunday scaries because you're still in the workplace there.
Speaker 3:So I've got to say you still get. You know, I had a two-week holiday recently, which is not something I, um, I have really done for a long time. Normally just go for a week and yeah, after two weeks off I still I did get that. I call it the school summer holiday feeling. But yeah, you know, I did get that initially. But then you know, once you've got back in, you've logged in, you check your email, you've chatted to a few people, you're just back in it then and it kind of doesn't work out.
Speaker 1:That's the panic of checking your inbox after two weeks. That's that panic?
Speaker 3:I don't. I don't think you're normal if you kind of come back and go, oh, you know, there's always going to be a little bit of oh, I could just do another week's holiday, but exactly as long as that doesn't persist, I think you know you're fine every day, you're thinking, if it was this time and it was still on holiday, I'd be doing this at this moment in time, and you've got hundreds of emails to get through.
Speaker 1:I know, I know feeling um. So how do you balance, then, the goal of increasing diversity with the commitment to hiring the best person for the role? Obviously, diversity is very important to end ground um and diversifying your team, but how do you balance that then with finding the best person for the role?
Speaker 3:so I feel really strong that it should be the right person for the role. But on the balance of that, I would like to increase that diversity as well. So you know it's trying to find that right balance. I know in my area with platform engineers it's really few and far between. For example, we get applications, you know, from women, um, you could, you can be talking kind of one or two out of 40 applications, um, which doesn't feel right. Um, you know we want to increase that diversity, but it wouldn't mean that I'd automatically recruit a woman, for example. I know diversity is a lot wider than that, but it might mean that we, you know, we would push any women through further for the interview process, but for me, when it came to offering a role, I'd still be looking for who the right person is for that role.
Speaker 3:So the challenge for me is, you know it's not how do we kind of just try and force that diversity into the business, it's how do we get more diversity into that applicant pool so that you know it's allowing us not even to have to actively need to address it.
Speaker 3:It becomes a non-issue because you know that applicant pool is diverse enough that you can pick the right person for the role, but you've got a wide enough um view of people that you can include that without even trying. Um and I think that's something that obviously stacy and the people team are focusing on. Is is how we can build up that applicant pool um. You know, for me it's getting people in early, it's looking at the grads and the apprenticeships and so forth, so that we get those people early doors um and get them on that journey before they start to think well, you know, it's not a job for me, you know, for a girl or you know, I'd like to try and do that early um, because then once you're in it, you realize actually it's not not a scary world as you may have thought it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I can see you nodding and I'm thinking more companies should have that mindset. Just making sure that the talent pool is diverse, and then you're absolutely right, you make your decision based on that role from there is diverse, and then you're absolutely right, you make your decision based on that role from there. But if those ladies, for instance, are not making it even to the interview stage, um, then they're always going to be on the back foot to making sure that they you know, they're seen, they were there, um, they. I know some companies are shaking things up as well as to which universities you studied at um, and kind of opening that pool up a little bit as well. So, but I couldn't agree more. It always needs to come down to the right person for the role, but just making sure that that diversity is there in the talent pool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not just in tech as well. So where we say we're a retail business, so we have got a number of different areas across this business. So you know, you take um marketing, you take buying, you take merchandising, we have logistics, we have finance, we have a people team. So it's it's not just a tech. You know, in terms, it's not just a tech problem, the fact that we need to get more women into tech. We might need to get more men into buying, we might need to get more women into logistics, um, so I think what we are really kind of clear on at all levels across the business is the need for diverse teams. So we've got that awareness and that understanding. It's at the forefront of our mind. We have an inclusive recruitment process and practices, so, and also we choose to partner and engage with a very broad external communities as well. So whether that is universities, whether that's communities like she Can Code or Women in Data, or you know, my colleague is part of a logistics kind of community for for women as well, um, so I think it's, it's um, it's it's lots of different things.
Speaker 2:No one, no one thing has the answer um, but you know, you can understand it to diane's point. You can't force it. Um, you know, and it's going to be. We will see over the years coming, in the next five, in the the next 10, in the next 20 years. We would hope there would be more of a balance because of all the work that's going in at college level, at school level, at university level, with all of these opportunities from external communities to get more women in tech and to kind of help them with their career. But yeah, I think that's just. That's just a not just set for one industry like tech, for example yeah, that that's such a good point because you're right.
Speaker 1:Imagine if you did all of the work in the tech department and then other parts of your business didn't reflect that. It'd be very strange and teams wouldn't work together very well. Um, so you're right, but noting that, especially in your type of business, um, you know, you would get very, um also lots of females on on one particular team and then lots of men in, for instance, the tech team. So, um, yeah to to address that across the whole business makes far more sense than just you know as a small pocket. Um, I mean, on that note, obviously, as a company, it seems like you do things you know from from the top down and that you try and make sure that all areas of the business um are um, uh, that you work on all areas as well. How do you create an environment, though, where everyone feels comfortable discussing and addressing diversity issues?
Speaker 3:so I I think we've made a massive improvement over the years. Recent, probably the last, I'd say, two or three years. I've seen a noticeable improvement, um, and part of that is we've got Bloom, which is our well-being program. This covers a number of things around, things like mental health. We have a menopause cafe, talk about money issues, making the right decisions, make a difference day where people can help charities.
Speaker 3:There's been some really good sessions around the business where we've had um kind of invites to to a session with somebody who um talking about things like mental health, um opening up about some of the issues that they've had personally and you know if I can't attend those sessions, I certainly know when they've happened, because at the end of them what you notice is the sheer amount of messages of thank you and support that come out off the back of those, and I think it just really shows how much people really appreciate somebody coming on in front of you know what can be a couple of hundred people and really just talking openly about challenges and issues that they've experienced in their own personal life, really openly and honestly.
Speaker 3:And I think the fact that people are comfortable doing that and also the fact that it's so well received, just kind of bounces off each other, and I think you know for me that that's just a massive change I've seen recently, because I think doing things like that makes it feel normal, makes it feel easy for it feel um easy for people to then open up and talk about their challenges with other people as well. So, you know, I think having those kind of conversations and that transparency and openness across the business really helps to create those, the right conversations and the right forums and ability for people to feel comfortable talking about whatever you know. The kind of issue is whether it's diversity related, whether it's, you know, mental health, etc. And I think just making it the norm that you can talk about this stuff's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely I love that. I love that also that people make an effort to come forward and share their stories, and I think that is as you said. You've seen a change in that as well, and that that's kind of a practice by behavior thing as well. The more people do that, the more people think they'll come forward and tell their stories, and some people don't realize they have a story that will help someone else is the other thing, and we find that in our own community we really encourage the ladies to share their stories. Um, because you never know who you're helping with. You know one, one tiny thing that you say can really help somebody else and um spark off a different direction for someone. And um, especially around topics like menopause, I love that you have a menopause cafe. That's a brilliant idea. Um, just to share you know experiences around that and things that people have learned, even if you're not experiencing that yourself, but other workplaces that you've worked in where they've done things, and you've shared ideas about what that was like as well. So I love that.
Speaker 1:Stacey, we were talking a bit earlier about the communities. That and, stacey, we were talking a bit earlier about the the communities, so I suppose that really helps with people feel like they can, uh, they, they have a space, a safe space where they can talk about things. Um, and I suppose the more of those that are within your company, the more people feel like they can talk about things if they need to. Um, rather than you know, young people nowadays and there's been a few surveys about it they are looking for places like that. They are looking for cultures where there is an open and safe space for people and, rather than years ago, people were looking for high salaries and you know the location of where they work, and nowadays that's very different.
Speaker 2:A lot of young people are actively seeking companies like in brown that have you know lots of communities and a good culture and that belonging piece is really important and that's why we added that into our kind of embrace strategy that equity, diversity and belonging, that's really important. Those five communities that we have I mentioned are led by colleagues. It's not led by a people team member, it's led by our colleagues. It's sponsored by an exec and it is. It is. It's that safe split at safe space to share ideas, to give feedback, um, and and that can be on anything, okay. So that could be me in my role as someone in recruitment. That could be me, you know, going to that community, going is does this, is this right? Could I do better? What could we change? Um, you know, and and using that community as a space to you know, because I don't, we don't have all the answers right, um. So I think strategy is really important.
Speaker 2:We have an internal communications and engagement team who, kind of what Diane mentioned, they plan campaigns and storytelling around those kind of core diversity strands.
Speaker 2:So not just getting external speakers in to talk about their journeys and their stories, but actually sharing stories from our own colleagues, whether that be through a kind of an online event, an in-person panel, it could be a Q&A, it could be a blog that they write. However, that person feels best how they share their story. So I think, certainly by having that storytelling and that is over time okay, you can't just click your fingers and everybody feels confident sharing their stories that's kind of months and years in the making of shaping that culture and it's ongoing. Yeah, again, you can never just say we're done, it's. How do we continue that really great work, how do we build on it, you know? So yeah, it's, I think it's. Yeah, I think certainly between all of the bloom well-being stuff that we do and the communities that we have threaded in through what our internal comms team do and also how our leaders, you know, really speak up and be that kind of sponsor for these things is really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And why it works.
Speaker 1:You saying that you know it is an ongoing thing and it is something that doesn't happen overnight. There isn't a silver bullet for diversity. So, on that note, can you share any upcoming plans or goals that Enbrown has for continuing to move the needle on diversity in tech?
Speaker 2:um, I think there's a couple, certainly a couple of things. I think, um, the work that we're doing with our external partners and communities, like yourself, is really important to continue with. Um, I think, really setting clear and measurable targets for diversity in our workforce. We recently had an ED&I and B partner join and their role is to work across the business and elevate that kind of embrace strategy that we have um. So, I think, certainly, and making sure that we still gain that feedback and you know we have a culture group, we do vibe surveys, we have feedback from our communities as well so making sure that we're still gaining that kind of feedback on kind of sentiment around inclusivity and equality, um, and you know, it's always looking externally too, isn't it so?
Speaker 2:looking at data externally to give us that clear idea and indication of how we're performing. So, um, and yeah, just continuing the conversation, I don't think it's any one thing, it's just lots of little things that we can do and continue to do and checking in on ourselves. And, you know, can we do anything more, can we do anything different? You know, is this working? Um, so, yeah, I think, continue, continue on that path.
Speaker 1:And um, yeah, yeah, definitely, and, um, diane, from your side I know, I know you're actively making sure that there's more diverse talent in the talent pool. I'm assuming that's something that you're going to continue striving for, just to make sure that you, you know they get in front of the hiring panel and that you can make an informed decision from them panel, um, and that you can make an informed decision from them.
Speaker 3:Definitely, I think, um, you know, it's something that I'm passionate about because obviously I've come through that from the woman perspective. There's obviously lots of other different perspectives that we need to consider, um, but I think you know things like working with yourselves, um, and other groups, where, how, how do we get out, how do we get into schools and colleges, and you know, and go and talk to kids and get them to think that, you know, things like tech are perfectly viable jobs, um, you know, whatever your, your kind of ethnicity, your gender, etc. You know, I think a lot of children grow up thinking this is, you know, a woman's job, this is a man's job and that dial needs to change massively. You know, there's nothing that should be off limits.
Speaker 3:I remember, growing up, I wanted to be a winchman for the RAF Wow Helicopters and at the time it was like you know, I think partly why I wanted to do it is because there's no women winchman at the time. It wasn't a role that was done by women. You know, and I think there's always that you know, despite the fact obviously I didn't end up doing that, um, I think there's. There's always that, that push, and we should be striving to to kind of change the dial on some of this stuff as much as we possibly can, and I think doing that as early as we can, um, is definitely something that's really going to help and make that difference because, you know, if you can change mindsets when they're still moldable and you know and thinking that anything's possible, then that's definitely the right time that we need to target.
Speaker 1:Had you seen that somewhere though, because a lot of people you know, some roles are very visible and you notice them. As a young person, you think, actually, I really want to do that. Have you seen someone doing that and thought, cool, that looks cool.
Speaker 3:It was I was in the air cadets when I was younger, um, again, something that was predominantly male. Um, my brother joined and then I was like well, I want to do this, I want to go and fly planes and I want to go and do stuff. That's, you know, a bit crazy and a bit different. You know, and it was only through that that I was kind of exposed to some of those roles and some of those things. And, yeah, and I thought, well, that sounds like something really fun to be doing hanging off the back of a helicopter.
Speaker 1:But then you see those role models. You know they were around you, it was something that you were experiencing. It's almost like in tech.
Speaker 3:You don't get that so much unless someone comes into your school exactly, and I think that's why we need to try and really turn the dial on that stuff, because I think, um, you know as much as we can think, why not? No, um, you know that that's what's going to change that dial and get people thinking differently going forward the allies, I think is really important as well in all of this, um, when I was younger.
Speaker 2:So I played rugby from the age of six, um, and I was one of two girls in an obviously male rugby team. Um, and I think back, um, and I don't know if it's because I was that young, but it never even occurred to me that I was the one of only two girls in a male team. They were just my teammates, and I think back to like how all the coaches were men, but I was never treated any differently and I just grew up playing sports and and doing that and it's so I have that kind of mindset of, well, why not? Why? Why would I be any different? Um, but maybe not everybody has that, you know, and I think.
Speaker 2:But it was just kind of what you just said there, diane around, kind of you know why you wanted to do it and it's um, so it's it's all about the allies side as well, isn't it? You know we need people to um, join those communities and be just as part of it as well, to give their thoughts and their ideas as well yes, definitely, and and and you're right, you, you do need those allies throughout your career as well.
Speaker 1:And, um, and those uh sponsors that are saying things about you when you're not in the room, saying those positive pushing you forward for the next role, um, and it's it's so important to have that when, especially when you do get into a good role, and somebody you know really promoting you for the next one, um, whether they're male or female. So that's um super important. And, ladies, we're almost out of time and I'm going to ask you one more question um, do you have any advice for other companies who want to increase diversity and inclusion within their company, but they don't know where to start? So, obviously, we spoke about it's not an overnight fix.
Speaker 3:So what do you think you've got? You're not going to get it right on day one, I think, is the outcome. But I think to Stacey's points earlier by listening and making people feel they've got that safe space, you can improve. And I think you know, like having the groups of people, it's not just about them talking within themselves, it's about people coming asking them, like Stacey said, you know, are we doing the right things? Could we do things better? Could we change things? And constantly evolving that journey.
Speaker 3:I think having support in that day to day for those areas of diversity, you know, it's really, really important. I think, also knowing how to attract people into roles is one thing, but also supporting them when you've got them as well. Just very quickly, one story I had was as a woman in tech. I spoke at an event that we hosted at Enbrown a while ago on DevOps Stacey's favourite subject and there was a real shortage of women, you know. For example, at that event as there is often at these events and one woman turned up with her son and he happily just sat at the back eating pizza while his mum listened to the talk.
Speaker 3:And you know, and it surprised me because it's not something I'd ever seen before and I thought you know what. That's fantastic, but you know she's quite confident in doing whatever needs to happen so that she can do, you know, know, get that learning and get that opportunity for growth, um, but it's I think it's not just attracting people. It's then thinking about how do we make things external to that day-to-day as well accessible for people, um, for all working parents, for example, to show everyone's included and we can learn and grow and balance those things. So I think there's lots of areas to think about, um, and I think it's just start taking those steps and start talking to people and including people and creating that safe space for conversation yes yeah yeah, I mean almost noticing that if you have an environment where people don't feel comfortable to do that or that, you you notice something about your culture.
Speaker 1:Then, almost just taking the first step of thinking, I think we have a problem and we need to move forward. Sometimes it's, you know, if if ladies don't feel comfortable enough to do that, to bring their child with them for something that they really want to be at, then there must be a problem there. So, even just you know a company humbling itself to think, I think we need to think about this yeah, well, yeah, I agree, I think I've got.
Speaker 2:I think I would add a couple of things to that. I think, use data, so try and increase your colleague. Data diversity, data to understand where you are as a business. Um, do you need to improve what you know and what not quite doing something? For the sake of doing it? There has to be a reason behind it. Um, I think, listen to your own internal communities, um, like diane said, but also you know research externally as well. Um, I think, having the right partnerships in place as well, um, and also, um, I think, from a learning perspective. So, whether that's ensuring that you're doing some sort of learning around inclusive leadership, unconscious bias building skills like communication, those things can make a real difference. Um, so, yeah, there would be my like highlights.
Speaker 1:I would say yes, definitely there are. A. Data is so, so important. You're right, I think, um, some companies, when they start to work with us as well, they they are trying to find that starting point and they almost haven't figured out how to measure what they're doing as well, which is is so important to be able to see what they're doing, how it's making an impact, the different types of networks that they're doing as well, which is it's so important to be able to see what they're doing, how it's making an impact, the different types of networks that they're working with, bringing people in internally to help them. And, yeah, it's so important to not just get started but figure out. How are you going to measure that and how are you going to see all of the different ways that you're working with people and how that comes together to you know, in the next few years, see that it's actually had an impact on our workforce. It's definitely important there.
Speaker 1:And, ladies, I could keep picking your brains on this topic for a whole other podcast probably, but we are already out of time. It's been an absolute pleasure having you both on Spilling the Tea today. Thank you so much, stacey and Diane, for coming on and having a chat thank you, great thank you thank you for everybody listening, as always.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
