SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Crossing Continents & Disciplines: A journey into AI Engineering
In this episode, we delve into the remarkable journey,Magdalena Bilska, an AI Engineer at Showpad, a Polish native who embarked on a transformative adventure by studying in the Netherlands.
Transitioning from Psychology to Computational Cognitive Science may seem like a sharp turn, but for Magda, it was a natural progression fueled by curiosity and a desire to explore the intersection of human behavior and technology. Now thriving as an Artificial Intelligence Engineer, Magda reflects on the unconventional path that led to this fulfilling career.
However, the road wasn't without its obstaclesMagda candidly discusses the ongoing battle with health issues, including anxiety, depression, and chronic rheumatoid disorder. Through resilience and determination, Magda persevered, finding strength in vulnerability and community support.
One of the most intriguing aspects of Magda’s journey is the fusion of diverse backgrounds in navigating the IT landscape. Drawing from psychology expertise, Magda became not only a proficient coder but also a mediator, bridging gaps between neurodivergent colleagues and fostering a more inclusive work environment.
Join us as we unravel the layers of Magda’s story, uncovering valuable lessons on adaptation, empathy, and the boundless possibilities that arise from embracing change and diversity in both life and career.
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Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in again. I am Katie Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing Crossing Continents and Disciplines a Journey into AI Engineering. We're going to dive into the remarkable journey of Magda Bilska, an AI engineer at Showpad. A Polish native who embarked on a transformative adventure by studying in the Netherlands transformative adventure by studying in the Netherlands. Now thriving as an artificial intelligence engineer, magda is here to reflect on the unconventional path that led her to this fulfilling career. Welcome, magda. Thank you so much for joining us on Spilling Tea. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a pleasure to have you here, really excited to dip into your career a little bit as an AI engineer. So can we kick off first of all with a little bit of background about yourself, just to set the context for today, please.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, off the top of my head. Well, you already know my name and surname and what I currently do. But yeah, to give a bit of a background, maybe I am originally Polish. I do come from Poland, from a small town called Kalisz, very pretty, very boring. I couldn't wait to move out of there. To be fair, I'm really sorry if anybody from Kalisz is listening to this.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I was, quote unquote groomed to be a doctor my entire childhood. So this, as you can see, well, my parents are not exactly disappointed, but it didn't go the way they wanted. Let's put it this way as, yeah, I went to study in the Netherlands. As you previously mentioned, I studied psychology. At first, it was to be more precise, a degree that was focusing on the biological and cognitive aspects of psychology, and further on, I have decided to switch paths a little bit. I mean not exactly switch, switch because it's somewhat related, it's just an application nobody really thinks of, really, at least that's that's, that's my, that's my observation so far, because whenever I tell anybody that I studied computational cognitive science, they're like what, what is that?
Speaker 1:What is that? Yeah, and why did did you pick that?
Speaker 2:that's a great question. It was, um, yeah, it was, it was, it wasn't. It was a well-informed choice, but it was one that I would have never, um, I would have never expected, like even a year or two years before I actually did that because, um, essentially what happened is that while studying psychology, I kind of got um, I just found it increasingly difficult to be dealing with problems that um, problems and solutions that work, but we don't know why. I started to really really miss, like what's the word? Not strict sciences, but in the Netherlands they call it beta sciences, so mathematics, physics, stuff like that, things that you can actually put down on paper, calculate and infer something. I started to really miss that aspect of science and, uh, yeah, just just decided to basically, um, spend my entire final year of the bachelor's doing electives in mathematics and programming and, yeah, just applied for whatever AI cognitive science degree was out there. But, to be fair, that's like the one I ended up doing was my preferred one. I really, really enjoyed that yeah, wonderful.
Speaker 1:I mean it's, a lot of our community don't have a traditional routine and and unfortunately a lot of our community don't have a traditional routine and unfortunately a lot of our ladies say you know, I didn't grow up thinking I'm going to work in tech and I'm going to go to university and study technology. They kind of find their way in somehow and kind of fall in from lots of different routes. But it's always just good to hear that people make it in in the end anyway. But it's always just good to hear that people just make it in in the end anyway. So we mentioned a little bit about you moving from Poland to the Netherlands. So can you walk us through the decision-making process behind moving from Poland to the Netherlands for your studies, other than just the fact that you wanted to spread your wings a little bit from the town that you came from, and what were some of the biggest challenges that you faced during this transition?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, sure, there were, for sure, many, but why did I want to study in the Netherlands? There are definitely two aspects to that. There was the rational one, where I knew what the reality of studying in Poland looks like. It's still a very old-fashioned conservative system here. So you come to exams in suits or in really fancy dresses, you have to address your professors with their titles, you have to come to the class. There is no excuse for missing the class. Um, and yeah, and there's just this huge um. It's not power imbalance, but, but there's this very, very strict hierarchy where you do not speak back to the professor. Essentially, yeah, yeah, exactly, uh.
Speaker 2:So I knew that that wouldn't really suit me, and also I didn't have a very good idea for myself. Um, because I, at the time, I already knew that I didn't want to be a doctor, which is what my parents have been trying to make me do, uh. Well, encourage me to do uh, since I can remember um. So, yeah, I just came up with this wild idea like maybe psychology, um, just because there were people in my, in my, in my life and my family who did suffer from psychological ailments. Um, and yeah, I was just extremely curious about that, but I didn't really know anything. So, um on top of that I was, I did realize that I do. I really do need this kind of hard science.
Speaker 1:They're very black and white, aren't they think, and certain minds work that way, especially if you're. You like mathematics, for instance. You like that you do something and there's an answer, clear answer, at the end yeah, it's, it's, it's a useful dichotomy for this um, for this example.
Speaker 2:But, of course, like, at the end, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm between disciplines, so who am I to judge any of the side? Um? But yeah, I also realized that I needed that hard science aspect, so I was looking around for something that would have to do with biology and statistics and the programs in Poland, the psychology programs in Poland. They were not providing that, so I started looking abroad. I also happened to have some friends who graduated from the university I went to and they really recommended it. So that was all the reasons I needed. And, on the emotional side, to put it bluntly, maybe at the time I was very depressed and very, very looking forward to moving somewhere far away sort of just run away from my problems, which worked out great.
Speaker 2:I don't recommend it. It's very much it's very much a lottery whether that's going to work out or not, but it really did for me, and that is related to the transformative aspect that you mentioned before and the obstacles I had to overcome. I mean, I'm not going to get into my parents trying to change my mind by well adversely reacting to the idea let's put it this way to the idea, let's put it this way. But just the fact that I moved to another country at 18, I had to figure out everything from the very bottom. I had to find a GP, I had to register myself as a tenant in the city, I had to find a flat, I had to find a job All that stuff was, first of all, extremely distracting from my problems, which was great.
Speaker 2:But also really, really allowed me to build up a lot of self-confidence, because I didn't know I could do it.
Speaker 1:If you asked me if I could do it, I would probably say no on, yeah, yeah, and you just, yeah, very courageously decided to go off and change paths, um, especially as a young person, that really, um, that is quite difficult to do. It's not like just going to university um, that's, that's new or even in the same country, um, and just kind of leaving home for the first time. You know, all kind of together in one experience moving to a different country, starting university, finding somewhere to live, which is quite courageous. You also made another big decision after you switched from a bachelor's degree in psychology and you moved to a master's degree in computational cognitive science, which was a quite a big leap. To do that, and can I ask you a bit about you?
Speaker 1:You mentioned previously that you wanted something that was a bit more which you refer to as like hard science and, you know moving away from what you've previously been working on in psychology. So what kind of sparked your interest in this interdisciplinary field and how did your psychology background inform your approach to computational science? Is there anything that you kind of transferred from the work that you'd already done in psychology over to computational cognitive science? That's quite a mouthful.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know, I really know we can just refer to it as CCS. If that makes it better, awesome. But yeah, I mean not that many people are knowledgeable in these two disciplines, so I definitely get a lot of questions about that. But my knowledge definitely did transfer. I mean, of course, all the electives that I took were extremely helpful. If I didn't take them, I would have to do something called a bridge year where they would lay the foundations, but by doing the electives I allowed myself to skip that. But also the bachelors that I did. That did focus on cognitive and biological aspects. Right, and cognitive computational science focuses exactly on that. So just to put it out there like an example of a computational cognitive scientific study article, whatever, oh my God, there was this professor at my department who was doing the wildest studies. She would actually travel to Tibet, put EEG caps on Tibetan monks EEG caps on Tibetan monks, wow yeah. And later analyze their brainwaves and compare them to brain brainwaves of, just like a, your statistically average let's put it this way Dutch person, yeah.
Speaker 2:Wow, so yeah a lot of a lot of stuff like EEG, MRI there, fmri, no-transcript lots of stuff, but it's all about measuring brain activity, um, based on what the person is doing essentially and how they're thinking yeah, so it's um in in tech.
Speaker 1:Especially we, we always say a lot, so a lot of our community they um made a career transition from a completely different, unrelated career into tech and a lot of our ladies have mentioned on this podcast that sometimes when you do that, you almost don't realize the skills that you built in the previous topic that you were studying or area that you were working, and how they actually transfer into tech and that so many skills can quite easily transfer into the tech industry. Um, but it sounds like as well with you um, with psychology that was, that was quite an easy um process to take. It wasn't like a wasted time that you had. You just took all those skills with you uh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it definitely doesn't really map one-to-one what I studied and what I'm doing now, but I definitely built up a lot of, um, very, very important skills, skills that kind of put me on the map now and you mentioned a little bit about um people in your family, um as well.
Speaker 1:With um, you know you mentioned like anxiety and depression, so I wanted to dip into that a little bit about. You know, dealing with health issues like anxiety, depression and chronic rheumatoid disorder can be incredibly challenging. Can I ask you a little bit about that and how these experiences have influenced your personal and professional journey?
Speaker 2:how these experiences have influenced your personal and professional journey. I mean, I would clarify first that essentially, the depression and anxiety are a byproduct here. It all kind of started with the diagnosis that I got Well, the pre-diagnosis that I got when I was like 15 or so it was very early actually and I was unlucky enough to stumble upon a doctor who was incredibly bad at communication. So at the time I only had issues with one of my eyes. So what happened is that every one, two, three months it varied a lot I would get a very acute inflammation in my right eye and they couldn't find a reason for that. It just happened, they said. So that was obviously annoying. Luckily, I still had the other eye most of the time.
Speaker 2:But eventually the ophthalmologist referred me to a rheumatologist and, um, yeah, as I said, I was unlucky enough to stumble upon this exact doctor, because at the age of 15, I've been told that, yeah, probably when you're about 30 you're gonna be in, be in a, in a what do you call it? The wheelchair yeah, I was told at 15 that I will be in a wheelchair by 30, which, as you can see, not the case. I'm not going to stand up, but this is not the case, Can?
Speaker 1:confirm. Yes, gosh. Okay. Why were you told that?
Speaker 2:Sorry.
Speaker 1:Why were you told that?
Speaker 2:Well, I do believe that the major reason is that the doctor was terrible at communication but also not very up to date with the research, because I think she was mostly thinking about, uh, very extreme cases which don't really happen anymore, because the medicine that the pharma, pharmacology, pharmacology has progressed significantly, uh, so, yeah, very, very glad for that. Um, so yeah, at this point I'm actually taking medicine which is uh inhibiting the progression, the progression of the disorder that I have, which, yeah, still, even if I didn't do it, I would not be in a wheelchair by 30, but 40 probably.
Speaker 1:Yes, and uh and and so far so good, um, in that area. So so I wanted to dip into a little bit about your background in psychology and how this has kind of led on to your role in AI. So could you share a specific instance where your background in psychology proved invaluable in your role as an AI engineer?
Speaker 2:proved invaluable in your role as an AI engineer? I wouldn't really. Maybe I wouldn't use the word invaluable but, like I mentioned before, it's something that puts me out there. It's something that makes me different from other candidates. Let's put it this way because, let's be honest, I definitely don't have the IT foundations that your typical graduate, like IT, computer science graduate, has, but I tend to be more a high level thinker than other people that I work with. I'm very focused on applications. I believe that's something that psychology gave me.
Speaker 2:But, to be honest, the biggest takeaway from my bachelor's actually came from all the people I've met. The university I studied at, maastricht University, is, I believe, in top five most international universities in the world, like in top five most international universities in the world. So that really um, that really made me encounter people from all kinds of different backgrounds and all these people coming from all these different places. They had diametrically different issues that they encountered in their life and some of them were truly, truly tragic that I really don't want to get into details.
Speaker 2:But I have definitely lost like a month's worth of sleep by listening to my colleagues and just internalizing this stuff and trying to empathize, and this empathy is a huge factor again, because, um, because I, I'm well, it's gonna sound cliche, but I am a huge team player. I really, really try to befriend everybody I work with. I think work is so much better than I am probably sometimes a bit too nosy because I get into everybody's problems and I'm like, hey, how are you, how was your weekend? And I had this amazing chat with a co-worker of mine about a week ago about how our relationship with our parents has shaped us as adults. Yeah, it's just it's. I really think that's a, that's a big differentiating factor.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely yeah. And again, you take things from your studies into all parts of your life and even into your team and how you interact with your team at work and the way that you prefer to work. Reflecting on your journey so far, you've had quite a wild, courageous journey and you made some quite wild decisions when you were younger wild decisions when you were younger. What are some of the most important lessons that you've learned about resilience, adaptability and finding fulfilment in your career?
Speaker 2:resilience, adaptability and fulfillment. Um, yeah, I I unfortunately don't have anything optimistic to say about resilience um, I consider myself extremely lucky to have to have to have had all these hurdles happen early in my life, because that's when stakes are low by default. Worst case, you're not going to get promoted to the next grade or something. So I'm really, really glad for that.
Speaker 2:I'm also obviously really glad for my family and how supportive they have they were, but I do believe that resilience. Yet it just comes from the world trying to mess it up for you. Unfortunately, yeah, you can't really gain it otherwise it's. If you're not, if you're not um, I'm missing a word again um, anyway, yeah, if you're not subjected to that it's, it's very unlikely to develop it successfully. I think um same about adaptability. However, when it comes to finding fulfillment, what I find is that one big lesson I have learned is that it truly does not really matter what you do. I mean, of course, of course, it's better to do something you like. Yeah, that's the most obvious thing anybody ever said. But, yeah, that, um, even in an environment which is not very welcoming, as long as you make people around your your allies and you maintain a positive, optimistic outlook, every job, every job is is fulfilling. I actually worked at mcdonald's for a year. That was super fun.
Speaker 1:I went to McDonald's. I loved it. I loved it and you learn so much about you as a person working at McDonald's. It's like whether you can cope we're in a high, fast-paced environment whether you can cope with the public having a go at you all the time, like you. Just you learn so much about.
Speaker 2:Everybody should try it yeah, no, I really agree, it was. It's a really good baptism into into the adult life. Yeah, and also just like how you, how you uh, cooperate with other people, because you get all kinds of demographics like people working with you together at McDonald's.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, you, you really have to learn to empathize as well and and adapt yes, and the turnover is very high in a team like that as well, because a lot of us I was a student and there are so many students that come and go for summer and they're not there permanently but the turnover there on your team is so high and that's a challenge in itself, trying to keep working with new people and how they work and how you work. And, yeah, I found out that just working at McDonald's is such an eye-opener and, you're right, a baptism of fire that when you do get in the workforce, what that can actually be like. It's a nice little test before you do get in the workforce, um, what that can actually be like. That's like it's a nice little test, um, before you actually get in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm assuming as well, they, um, because you you mentioned previously your parents um wanted you to be a doctor and now you're an ai engineer. I mean, that's a pretty cool job title. So I'm sure they you know you they must look at you and think you are fulfilled in your role as an AI engineer and that is, you know, also a really good career route. So, um, I take it they're like well done, that was, that was a good decision.
Speaker 2:They're definitely, they're definitely okay with that. But that's why I mentioned before, disappointment is not the right word. It's just uh, I didn't meet their expectations, but they're okay with that. Well, no, meet expectations is also a charged word. It implies disappointment. I didn't do what they expected, um, but yeah no, my family has been great throughout and supporting me relentlessly, and I am extremely thankful for them.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and out of curiosity, can you just tell me a little bit about your role at Showpad, and I take it as an AI engineer. You just don't have a day that is the same as the previous day, do you just?
Speaker 2:what is?
Speaker 1:your what's like a normal day for you.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, yeah, the days vary quite a bit. You're very right about that. The discipline is. The discipline is progressing crazy fast. It feels like there isn't a day where, when you read about some new development or some new kind of neural network that's been, that's been developed, um, but yeah, like being an AI engineer is all about looking at this stuff from a perspective, picking something that you think is going to work well and that is safe enough so that you don't waste too much time on trying out new stuff. You have to. You have to deliver eventually, so sometimes it's all about going for sure way stuff. Uh, you know it's gonna work. You've worked with it before. Um, it's, of course it's. It's super important to keep up with the developments as well. You really don't want to be caught off guard.
Speaker 2:It happened to me once when this entire llm craze happened. Um, yeah, that was at my previous job. A friend of mine was laughing at me back then because he also went through for the transformation from lsdms long short-term memory networks to um to transformers, which was also huge. Everybody went crazy about transformers. Everything was being done with transformers, which was also huge. Everybody went crazy about transformers. Everything was being done with transformers. So to him that was not as well derailing as it was to me. But yeah, it was really hard. I felt like I have no idea what I'm doing, what is happening around me. Maybe this was not such a maybe this not such a right uh thing for me to be doing, um, but yeah, just take a step back, look at the big picture and figure out exactly as much as you need to figure out, because you will never understand everything yes, yeah, that's great advice.
Speaker 1:You will never understand everything, especially, as said, in the fast-paced world of AI, like everything is changing constantly. It's moving at such a speed. So, on that note, I wanted to ask you how do you envision the future of AI engineering, particularly in terms of its potential impact on mental health and wellbeing of its potential impact on mental health and well-being.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a bit of a different cup of tea from what I'm doing. We work in sales, enablement right. We help salespeople be more productive, make bigger deals, things like that. However, when it comes to mental health, the tricky part is the health part, essentially Because there's a ton of research happening about how to apply virtual reality, augmented reality, in order to bring therapeutic devices to people at their homes, or there's a ton of apps that are being developed where people can track their moods. It helps them figure out what kinds of events or encounters or any kind of factors, how they're impacting their mental health, so they can learn what to avoid.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, all these developments are obviously great but, as I mentioned, it's tricky because it's health. So, all this stuff is great, it's happening right now, it's been happening for years, but before it gets approved and actually reaches people, uh, a lot of time has to pass because, um, just because all this stuff is is very um, the process of getting such treats, treatments, approved is very lengthy and complicated. It's essentially the same well, not the same, probably simpler, but it's similar to the process a new drug has to go through to be approved for the market. So, yeah, years and a lot of money has to be spent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely Do you as well. Do you have any advice that, if you know our listeners were thinking about a career in AI? You know any advice that you would like to share? Anything you wish you had been told before you went into a career in AI? Hmm?
Speaker 2:Hmm, that's a really good question. Um, I I would say that my number one advice would be don't try to do this alone. It's a lot. I'm really glad for, uh, meeting people who were extremely kind in my master's, who helped me out, despite knowing that well, I'm well behind them, because they studied something much more related, for example, but they were just great and and helped me so much. It's a huge leap, just coming from a different discipline, suddenly having to know all these tools that developers use. So, yeah, don't be afraid to reach out for help. For sure that helps a lot. If you can't afford to do that, there's a ton of materials online that are extremely helpful. But anything else, that was a really good question. That's the first one.
Speaker 1:I don't have an answer on the top, from the top of my head I suppose, um, reaching out to other people is so, so important though, because it is quite easy to think you perhaps you are on your own. And then when you do reach out to communities, for instance in the she can go community, you know people just share questions and then realize actually there's somebody else out there that is feeling the same way that I'm feeling, and nine times out of ten there are, there are more than one one person out there that has that same question. So I agree, just finding your network and asking questions, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And maybe to rephrase it, because I put it in such a pessimistic way, it's not don't try to do it yourself. If you can, don't do it yourself and ask other people for help. People are, in general, general people are so much kinder than people. Other people, on average, give them credit for um. I, for example, would be glad to help, but, um, another thing that popped into my mind while you were speaking, uh, was was something that took me way too long to realize, and that is, um, how important it is to realize that it's software development.
Speaker 2:There is never a right answer, yeah, especially not one right. So, yeah, the fact that you did something another way than somebody else did it? It? It doesn't make a difference. It doesn't make a difference. You're supposed to solve problems, uh, not not write exact same code as whoever your role model is, line by line, uh. And also, none of us really 100% know what we're doing. Even once you're a couple of years into your career, you still Google the hell out of everything. Yeah, not possible to know everything. Again, it's just so many tools, so many different applications of what you in general do. You will never be 100% prepared. So, yeah, being flexible.
Speaker 1:Actually, in my opinion in this line of work is the number one skill. Definitely. That is brilliant advice as well. Just to know that other people are all doing the same thing that we're doing and that you don't have to have the answer to everything as well is really good advice. And, magda, I could keep talking to you for the rest of the afternoon on this topic, but we are already out of time. So thank you so much for coming on and having a chat with us about your journey. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on Spilling the Tea.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much as well. It was super nice and just saying, if anybody ever gets invited to this and hesitates, don't. It's just super pleasant and nice and overall great experience good.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that. It's been a pleasure and uh, to everybody listening as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
