.png)
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Allyship in Tech
We’re delving into the critical topic of allyship in the tech industry with Phil Race, CEO of Totalmobile. As an advocate for diversity and inclusion, Phil shares his insights on creating supportive environments where everyone can thrive.
We discuss the importance of allyship in challenging systemic biases and fostering a culture of belonging, and highlighting the role of leaders in championing diversity initiatives.
Tune in to discover actionable steps for promoting allyship and driving diversity and inclusion in the tech industry, as we explore the power of collective action in creating positive societal impact.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in again. I am Katie Bateman, the Content Director at SheCanCode, and today we are discussing allyship in tech. We're delving into the critical topic of allyship in the tech industry, and today I've got the wonderful Phil Ray, ceo of Total Mobile, with me. He's an advocate for diversity and inclusion, so Phil is here to share his insights on creating supportive environments where everyone can thrive. Welcome, phil. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2:I'm loving the introduction. Wonderful, that is that superb. What a great way to warm us up. Nice to meet you.
Speaker 1:We like everybody to feel nice and welcome on this podcast and I also had a previous podcast with some of your team, so I can vouch for the wonderful on this one. Can we kick off today with a little bit of context about you, your journey into tech and a little bit about your role at TotalMobile, if that's okay?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no worries at all. Yeah, I mean the journey goes back a long time. I mean I originally did electronic engineering at Nottingham University, many, many years ago now, but it was the time that computers were becoming a big thing. It was about 1980, 1984, around that time. So I started to explore the idea of moving into a computer career, moved into sales, sales support Then I moved into leadership, running consulting teams, and then, as a result of that, running businesses and most recently I've been running businesses owned by private equity. And then, before this role, I ran an aim listed company for just north of five years. We eventually sold it to a trade buyer in the spring of last year and then was fortunate to secure this role in October. It was last year.
Speaker 1:Amazing and it's interesting that you have a techie background. A techie background, um, was it? Was that something? What? What was it at that point were you quite one of? Were you one of those technical children that just really loved techie things? Did you have a family members that perhaps worked in tech?
Speaker 2:well, no, I didn't. My dad was a was a council plumber and heating engineer, so there was no, I guess practical, if nothing else, yeah yeah, but but I was, you know, at school I had I mean, it's amazing how uh teacher influences um do shape people's lives, and I had a brilliant physics teacher um Mr Hunter still remember his name.
Speaker 1:That just shows, isn't it?
Speaker 2:absolutely an awesome individual and. I just loved puzzle solving and and mathematics and physics. You know a lot of it is about solving puzzles. So I think it's sort of an innate character trait and it's one that's lived with me. What motivates me is solving puzzles, and there's sometimes technology puzzles, there's sometimes people puzzles, and when you're running a business, it's business puzzles, and I love it. That's what keeps me inspired and gives me energy. That's what. That's what keeps me uh, keeps me inspired and gives me energy yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:That's a really nice way of putting that actually, because we have so many ladies on here that talk about, um, when you step into leadership, what, what that is like, and that they they have worked in tech but they move away from that. They almost have to make a decision to start with the people puzzles and then move on to the business puzzles and and and. That's a really uh nice way of summing up basically what they mean and having to make that decision. Can I ask you a little bit about what was that like for you when you, when you moved from? You know, you started off quite technical and then you moved to people management and now actually you've moved on to business management. How have you found that becoming a leader?
Speaker 2:A really good question. I am, and on that journey I took an MBA and I'll explain why. So so I was given, you know, I was obviously half decent at sales and engaging with people and they, you know, looking after teams of consultants and managing people, and then I was sort of thrown into this role, like you're now a manager, and I remember distinctly the conversation I said well, I've never done management before and you're just expecting me to sort of turn up tomorrow and be a manager.
Speaker 2:What do you do? And you know they were perfectly confident I'd pick up the skills by osmosis and working with great managers and I thought that's not quite right. Yeah, that's, I don't want to. I don't want to make my own mistakes. It's a good idea to learn from other people's mistakes.
Speaker 2:So, um, I I undertook an MBA. I I sort of paid for half, got the company to pay for half and spent uh, you know it spent three and a half amazing years at Henley to become the best manager I could be, rather than just a manager, and that stood me in incredibly good stead for the last 20 or so years. And it decoded some of the language and I think it's quite interesting. Most times you step into new roles and a large part of the challenge is to understand the language that's being talked around the table. And you hear that when I talk to um, you know, talk about women in industry um, that you know what conversations are happening around the ball table, what language are they using what, what frameworks are they bring into the table, and decoding some of that is incredibly useful to remove those barriers to entry in those rooms. So yes, that was a part of the transition.
Speaker 2:I did an MBA and it was very useful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's brilliant advice and you're absolutely right. I think there is that panic sometimes when you're stepping into leadership and what's expected of you, especially when you first become a manager. We have that conversation on here, um with the guests on here so often about even expectations. So many of the guests on here have said I stepped into a leadership role and I thought everybody thought I had all the answers and that.
Speaker 1:I should know everything and just being able to step back and think, actually, I don't need to, that's actually one of the best um, the best approaches you can take.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm a real believer in being genuine and authentic. I think that's so important. Don't try to be someone that you're not um and and the wonderful thing about being a leader is that you're permitted to ask the stupid question.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's.
Speaker 2:there's no such thing as a stupid question, it's just a question. Don't ask the same question twice because then you're not listening to people. But I think, I think it's really, it's a, it's a really powerful thing. Don't don't ever assume that you're expected it all. You've got talented people around you.
Speaker 2:Jack Welsh. I remember seeing a presentation by Jack Welsh who created this titan of industry G-E-C, I think it was, or G and in this presentation that he gave he said the most important thing for him was recruit highly talented people and get out of their way, and that's a brilliant piece of advice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, such good advice. And also just to be able to ask your team. People love to be asked things. If people think, oh, you know what I'm being asked that because I know I'm really good at that or I know my strengths, then yeah, it's so, so important. I love that advice to hire them and get out of their way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially in tech, because it's changing so quickly. So it's really important to embrace that change, always be learning, be curious. Those things stood me in good stead, if nothing else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so today we're going to talk a little bit about allyship, and can we kick off with what does allyship mean to you when we look at the tech industry?
Speaker 2:Well, it's quite interesting. I've only sort of come across this term the last couple of months. It's not, it's not sort of like a common word that I've I've heard, so that may be a challenge for you know, people like me in my position is to really be curious about this space, but I would connect this with coaching and inviting people into the room and sharing your experiences and I've tried to do that my entire career. And again, that networking piece and asking help of others but also reciprocating. Uh, that that's what I think this, all this, all means yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:And and that that thing on, um, as you said, coaching and networking and it's all, it's all sharing your story as well.
Speaker 1:It's so, so important. And, um, again, it's something that comes up on here often about people don't always realize how valuable their story actually is, even if you're just sharing with somebody that you know. You felt a certain way when you stepped into leadership, and just sharing that with somebody else that is on the cusp of moving into leadership can just really support somebody and you don't even realize that you know you've helped them in that way. And if it is something that is a little bit more formal, like coaching and helping somebody into their next position and their leadership position, um, then yeah, it's all it's, it's all valuable, um, and I suppose it's just being a bit more um, mindful about it. It's interesting, though, that you've only just heard of the term, because you you said that, like you know what it happens at our company anyway, it doesn't have a term. You know, it's just kind of like it's an interesting term, but we've been doing that anyway yeah, and I think I think good leaders break down hierarchies.
Speaker 2:Uh, again, very good piece of advice I was given at an early stage of my career is draw organization charts upside down. So most organization charts have the CEO at the top and the next layer down, and then the worker bees, if you like, at the bottom. That's totally the wrong way to think about a company. Turn it upside down. The people that really matter are the people in the front line, the people doing those day-to-day tasks that interact with customers, and the CEO doesn't exist unless all those people are doing a brilliant job.
Speaker 2:So, draw an organization chart upside down and then all of a sudden you realize that hierarchies. You want to squash them because you want to get close to the customer, close to the person making an impact to the customer, rather than being many, many layers away from that and actually not understanding what's going on. So, yeah, draw the organization chart upside down and then that helps remove those used to be physical barriers doors to an office that you don't actually have now. It's connections on things like this and teams. But, yeah, remove those barriers so that people can feel and can interact with each other in a very free and straightforward way, and then you'll get that coaching happening by accident, which is probably the best way to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially with leadership. You're right, Some companies you feel like the leadership team people don't know them or you can't approach them and ask them a question about something. And if the leadership is so disconnected from the worker bees as you said, then that you know it really trickles down as well as to what the management team are doing day in, day out. That trickles down into the rest of the team. So you have to make sure that you know if there is coaching going on or networking, at least that there is that um, strong connection there and that strong allyship between everybody in the company is so, so, so important. Why is it important that men are a part of the equality conversation? Do you think?
Speaker 2:uh I I think the the answer that lies in uh, some of the forums I've seen uh over recent years in the technology world. So I attended a uh, it was an award ceremony last uh, last week, uh, and it was the great and the good of small to medium-sized companies. It was run by this analyst company and you scan the room mainly men. So I used to attend a conference run for the world of telecommunications up in Glen Eagles, run at the Scottish golf course, lots of managed service providers, which is my previous world, probably three or four hundred individuals in the room 80% men so that particularly that sort of leadership and senior level, there is still a massive disparity and that needs to change.
Speaker 2:Now we are very fortunate we're the same. Our board is predominantly male. We have a brilliant chief people officer you've met Jill, she's awesome and we were incredibly pleased actually to look at the next level down, our senior management team. So those people who report to my team, 50 percent women, 50 percent male. So I think the glass ceilings are slowly being smashed, but it's really important that we keep that journey going so that over time, the people around my table there's a much better balance.
Speaker 2:I think it feels like progress is being made, but that's from my perspective as a male white individual at a senior level, but there's still work to do, so I think it's very important and also. I think it is all about that having a conversation with lots of different perspectives.
Speaker 1:So, whether that's, um, you know different races, different religious backgrounds, you know, uh, male, female, I think having all of those perspectives in the room when you're making decisions, uh, you'll probably make a better decision as a result definitely yes, and and I did meet the amazing j Jill and she is awesome and she did tell me that you're very lucky to have 50-50 male-female at that management level and as well, having Jill obviously recently joined the board but how inspiring that is for all levels of your company to see ladies at all levels so they can think of their next position and and sometimes we had a similar discussion about um sometimes when you see ladies at all board level and you're very junior, it's quite hard to relate to that and how to get to that position.
Speaker 1:So having them spread out through your company as well is so, so important so you can think about your next position and then what that one will look like and the next one will look like, and that you have that at Total Mobile, so you have role models at all levels. It's so, so important. Can I ask a little bit about the role that men play in being allies? So, in your opinion, what role do men specifically play in being allies for women in tech, do you think?
Speaker 2:um, so so I I saw this question on your on your list and I was. I was struggling a little bit with it because I don't in my own brain segment male, male, female, I don't I don't get up that's a particular cohort and that's a separate code.
Speaker 2:Now, that may. Again, it's very easy from my perspective to do that, um, but in terms of, uh, men and and allyship and coaching, uh, I think our, our role is, is to uh, I don't know how you'd phrase it, uh, it's, it's to spot the differences, encourage, encourage an understanding of the differences and then uh, determine whether those differences are justified or not, and then start building those bridges between different communities. So, so I think that's probably the most concise way of answering this one, but not not from great scientific analysis. I've never sort of put those into separate buckets.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and you are right. It's almost honing in once you've noticed those differences, honing in on the advantages and the benefits of having a diverse team, as you said before, and how that can really improve a team and a business. I think as well, some of the best managers that I've had, um that have been now, have been really good sponsors of me, and it's that when you're not in the room, what are people saying about you? So sometimes it's that you might not even realize that you, that you're doing it as an ally. But if you have fantastic females that are part of your company and you don't even realize that you are a sponsor of them, that when they're not in the room you say, oh, I know, you know she did something fantastic or Jill is doing amazing things as part of the board, then you are naturally a great sponsor for those female leaders and you don't even realize you're doing it. And I found that some of the best people, that some of my best managers, have all been male.
Speaker 2:I've had some brilliant male sponsors yeah, just I just uh, you know I would say this to anyone um, you know, throughout the business, you give people a reason to say that you know, uh, you know, step forward, volunteer, put yourself in uncomfortable situations except you don't know everything, but have a go, you know those. Those character traits are very endearing when you're a leader. You know. They're the sort of people you hunt for in your organisation and try and promote them and get them to do more, so to give. If you can give leaders of all shapes and sizes those reasons to advocate for you, then it can only do you well in terms of your career.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. I wanted to ask you a little bit about how men can best support gender diversity initiatives. The reason why I wanted to ask you that is a lot of our male allies that we talk to at she Can Code. They tend to say things like the only time that I end up doing anything like that is when I got called into a room for a training session on things that I should not say in the workplace. They almost see it as a negative thing, and it's far more important to be involved in these gender initiatives, to be moving the needle, and to be involved in these gender initiatives to be moving the needle and to to be helping in that area.
Speaker 1:Um, instead of just thinking. You know, sometimes you mentioned a lot of conferences um, you'll have a women in tech talk and then the ladies will disappear into a room on their own and talk about diversity as an issue, but men are not always part of that conversation. But it's so, so important, isn't it to to be part of that and to support the, the gender initiatives and the diversity initiatives that are happening within your own company, regardless of?
Speaker 2:your gender yeah, I think it's um again that that your point about language is a really interesting one that there are. There are, uh, yeah, we, we can often be too sensitive, um, and and therefore you might, you know, be very cautious about the language we use, whether that's about religion or race or or gender. You know that the society can frown upon the use of inappropriate language, and it's's not a function of inbuilt discriminatory behavior, it's just I've used the wrong word, so you get this nervousness about talking about these sort of things, and if you can strip that away and say look, this is a safe space.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter if you trip up and you've used the wrong phraseology, but nonetheless we're all hoping that we can support each other.
Speaker 2:So I think, that's the first thing is create those safe spaces so you can have the proper conversations. And then the second piece um, you know, probably my best example we I've been, I've been called into the room. So so my owners, beaumar, they, uh, they've created this initiative, um, uh, women in leadership and uh, it and it's a brilliant initiative, and what they've encouraged us to do is to coach people, not from within our own organization. So they paired me up, as a CEO of Token Mobile, with a senior individual in another of their portfolio companies and I'm having a conversation with her every six to eight weeks and the whole point of that is for her to bring some experiences to the table and ask me questions and and again, have a very open conversation about how, you know, we can, we can, develop her career and I'm learning from her and she's learning from me it's very much a two-way thing.
Speaker 2:So so that's, that's a brilliant proactive initiative by the portfolio company to to continue that, that journey for the women across the business. A bit of a long answer, but the the what was fascinating at the beginning of that, they did a briefing and the briefing was well. All of the research is suggesting certain sort of attributes and I think that briefing for me was really useful. There were sort of two or three very obvious things that were quite sort of there were sort of moments. So the first one was women are often judged by their image and the way they present themselves rather than the substance of the thing they're saying. I thought that was a really fascinating observation and I look at what I've done over the past and you sort of oh yes, I have done that. She looked brilliant standing up in front of the room convincing these customers to do things.
Speaker 1:Well, that was a looked not the substance.
Speaker 2:She was saying she carried herself well, she presented. That's really flawed thinking right looked. Not the substance. She was saying she looked, she carried herself well, she presented. That's, that's really flawed thinking right, um. And the other one was about women putting themselves forward. So this was the other, I think really interesting one, um is that, uh, the much again this was research based.
Speaker 2:A lot of women feel they have to be perfect before they apply for things, whereas men will typically have a go. They'll go don't really know, but I'll have a go and if it doesn't work, that's fine. Really stark differences. The research was saying stark differences. So so once you know these things, you go. Ah, that explains it. You know, when we look at candidate lists, um, if they're predominantly male it might be, might not, because all the men think they can do the job.
Speaker 2:They're just having a go, yeah and the women yeah it's all right, but the women aren't even putting themselves in the room, yeah, because they're sitting there going. I'm not sure I can do this, so those you know. I think some of the education would really help in terms of potentially helping us remove the barriers for people, for women, entering that room.
Speaker 1:Definitely and to that education as well, in a safe space, as you said at the start, and that you know it's not ever a negative thing. But to point out those things that you suddenly went oh, you know what, I hadn't even realised that and most people, once you hold the mirror up to them, they go hadn't even thought about it, or you know it's not something that you thought about outside of your day job. We're all you know, in our day jobs doing what we need to do within the business. That you might not necessarily be thinking of those things, and it's never. Usually a company never encourages their team to learn those things because they think they've been doing something wrong. It's just to encourage everybody to be more aware of their team, male or female, and how they work and how they prefer to work and progress in their own careers. So, so, so important to be a company that provides a safe space for that.
Speaker 1:Something that we say on here a lot as well is that it's more than a Slack group. So when we started this podcast, one of the first ladies said to me that it's more than ticking that box of. We've opened a women in tech Slack group and we put conversations in there. She said it's that feeling when you come to work every day. You nailed it with the safe space. You have to feel like you're safe enough to raise concerns. If you have concerns, or to talk to somebody about something, or if you do say something and you think oh gosh know, I shouldn't have said that that you're not going to get pulled over the coals because of it, and it's actually how you feel every day in the workplace, rather than we opened a women in tech slack group, but your question was in there I think, that you know, we, we, um, we as a society becoming more self-aware, um, and.
Speaker 2:and that that whole stiff upper lip and leave, and leave it in a box and don't talk about it because you might get frowned upon. I'd like to hope those boxes are being smashed and we're having those conversations and, whether that's men's health, whether it's stress, whether it's diversity, whether it's race and the treatment of different religious groups, all of those conversations are conversations that, if you have them, it breaks down barriers, it improves teamwork, it removes stressful situations and hopefully uh, you know, as a business leader create stronger businesses. So, so I think I I'd like to hope that the world is becoming more socially aware. Now that comes with its own challenges, as we talked about that fear of saying the wrong thing, but I think the benefits do far outweigh the potential challenges.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. And when you do land yourself in a culture, a business culture, where you can feel that you are more likely to stay, and you can tell that in the companies that can really retain their staff and people that are not necessarily job hopping, you're always going to get those people. But it isn't something that happens overnight. It is something that companies really have to work at to make sure it's in the dna of their, their culture it can't just be a poster on the wall.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, you know, I think I've seen. I've seen cultural initiatives and they've become a collection of words that were posted on the wall and that and you failed them. It has to be how you behave, what you do every day, the conversations you have, what you reward and what you frown upon. It has to be part of your DNA as a business, not just a post-gradual.
Speaker 1:Definitely, definitely Couldn't agree more, and I wanted to ask you a little bit about do you have any advice that you would give to individuals who want to become better allies but are unsure where to start. We touched upon that a little bit, like sometimes men might want to get involved in that conversation. They're not sure where to start or they might say the wrong thing. Do you have any advice for those people?
Speaker 2:um, I think, if you're, it's that connections, building those connections, and then they become coaching conversations and they become ways to jointly improve. And I think if you're open about, I am happy to have a conversation about this, I'm happy to coach in this space, I'm happy to embrace this potential change. I think if you sort of spread that word as part of your just your daily communication with the outside world. I think people will latch on to that and and drag you in the room because you're someone who who they can see, can, can, can, benefit you, um, and so I think it's.
Speaker 2:I think it's, it's almost part of your personal pr. Putting less out of phrase it. Make it part of your personal PR probably best way to phrase it. Make it part of your conversation and then people will latch onto it. I don't think. Well, my own personal view is I don't think it's a case of searching on the internet and finding what company is doing. I think it's more by osmosis, by those conversations, I think you'll end up in the right places.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and what other companies are doing as well. I mean, you know you mentioned about speaking with a lady who is in a different company and you know sharing that and sharing your advice and coaching with other ladies that are not actually within your own company as well. It's so, so important to get involved in the conversation that is not always just moving forward the culture within your own company, but beyond that as well and learning from others.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a great believer. I have um. You know I'm a logical thinker, I come from a scientific background, but I do believe in um. You know what you, what you donate to the outside world karma. I believe in karma. Yeah, you, you scatter a few seeds and and some of those seeds will grow and you'll get paid back. And it's not, it's not a trade, it's not that I'm doing this. I expect this return. It's in in the way you live and the way you work, the way you communicate.
Speaker 2:If you sow, those seeds then some of those will grow and you'll get payback somehow, and it'll be literally through karma. You know the, the role I'm in now, uh, uh, the the I I did a one big career shift. Now those two situations happened not because I applied for a role on the internet, that that that sort of fits with what I do. It was a friend of a friend of a friend. He said, ah, phil's a good bloke, well, you should have a chat with him. And that. That's a classic case of you know, spread the seeds, say the right things, put, put the word about that. You're open to these things and it'll come back to you, it will come back to you.
Speaker 2:I'm a great, but I've got evidence in my own career. Evidence it works.
Speaker 1:Karma exists yeah, it's so, so important, especially when you move into leadership as well, and and to to to be, to remember that.
Speaker 1:But you know you you don't always realize it when you first enter the workplace that how those connections, especially years later, can really help you along the way, even if you don't realise it when you first start out. And you're right just spreading the good seeds out there to help other companies, especially in the realm of diversity and women in tech. Because I wanted to touch upon that a little bit about looking ahead and what you hope for in terms of diversity within the tech industry and what steps can we all be taking to get there. You touched upon it there about you know karma and basically not pulling up the ladder behind you and always remembering to look back and think you know what, if somebody had helped me, you know the level below me or the level below that then that can really help in terms of me um, not necessarily male or female, but do you think that you know? Do you have any hopes in terms of diversity in the tech industry and how we can get there?
Speaker 2:yeah, as I say, I think there have been huge strides made, um, but there's still a massive uh, opportunity, uh, and I say I use the word opportunity advisedly uh, you know, if we can, if we can encourage a company of all types, and I think we'll be a stronger company. And that is an absolute truism. And if you look across my career over time, go back to the 1980s when I first started work, and there was a degree of segmentation by by background and by by social class, by race and also by gender. So if you look at the roles, it was classic, you know PAs, marketing personnel they were all women and then tech sales more aggressive related roles, if you like but all men, and that was sort of just that was the world we lived in.
Speaker 2:Now those barriers between those different worlds have dramatically changed. In my head of marketing is a is a male, and that's brilliant, so it should be. But if you look across our organisation and you did a gender analysis in our development teams, for example, it's still predominantly male and there's no justified reason for that. It's just that at the moment that's how it is.
Speaker 1:So I think there's still a lot of opportunity to address those inequalities by encouraging applicants of all shapes and sizes into those roles, to continue, continue that evolution, and so I think we're on a journey, but there's still, there's still work to do definitely, and because you mentioned the roles earlier, um, as well, about ladies that feel sometimes they can't, they shouldn't apply for something if they don't tick all those boxes, and just when a company is more mindful of that that they don't, they're, they're careful not to include all of the little details on a job application, just in case, you know, ladies rule them out and think I can't do all of those things and so I'm not going to take the chance. And you know, did you know that all of your job applications actually include all of these bullet points and all this language that might turn a lot of female applicants away from certain roles? And to actively be looking at which departments are very male dominated and how you can start making a plan and changing. That is so important, is so important. And, um, we notice that she can code as well that the companies that we work with we can tell the ones that are ticking agenda box and they feel like we've done our bit. You know we put our logo somewhere and we ticked our box and then the majority of our partners, hopefully, are those that are in it for the long run. They work with us all year.
Speaker 1:They want to be involved in lots of different things and they realize that it's you can't solve that problem overnight. You can't change your workforce overnight and be more diverse and have all those wonderful um ideas and cultures throughout your company, and that is something that you have to do day in, day out and to um be able to say then eventually that you have a 50-50 split management team. You know it's not something that that you can do overnight and you have to be, you have to take a step back sometimes as a company and say you know, we're going to try and make change and this is, this is how we're going to do it yeah, change takes time.
Speaker 2:I mean, mean, if you think about you know our staff attrition between 10 and 15 percent per annum, so you know that that divide 100 by 15 is what seven, eight, so you know that's an eight year journey to refresh that workforce.
Speaker 2:So it does. It does take time and, as you say, it's not a one and done sort of activity. It's a way of thinking, and if your way of thinking is, we encourage diversity. You don't have to have the perfect fit, but having a decent fit is good enough. If the character is right and the personality is right, then and the the um, the personality is right, uh, then the technology piece, I could probably train them. So it, you don't have to be perfect, you, you. And again, going back to my early career, uh, you know, one of the recruitment frameworks I was always taught was um, was at, you know, attribute, skills and knowledge of the three dimensions in terms of recruitment, and actually knowledge that that you can teach people as long as they've got the right attributes and the right skills. So that's their character, their desire to learn, their aspiration, that their ambition. If they've got those things, I can teach, I can teach the knowledge, yeah, and in technology, if you think about it a lot of it, you know the knowledge.
Speaker 1:And in technology, if you think about it a lot of it the knowledge, piece that's constantly changing.
Speaker 2:So as long as I've got an ambitious and driven and focused and can-do attitude type of person, I'll give them the knowledge. I can put them on a course. I can't teach the ambition and drive. That's an innate thing. So recruit for that and give them the knowledge and I say that to women right that you don't have to have 100% fit to that role spec in terms of knowledge. The most important thing when you walk in the room is have that, give it to me, I'll make it happen.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know that I had a similar conversation with one of our partners recently who a lady interviewed for the position. She said that she just thought I'll give it a go but wasn't quite sure because the job required C++ and she had to go through an interview process and a C++ test and she said I'd never done it, I didn't know a line of code. So before the interview she learned C++, and to an extent where she just barely passed this test and the employer really didn't care, because they called her up and said we were so impressed that you learned C++ just because of this interview, that you are the type of person that we could throw anything at and you would learn it. And they hired her on that basis and they taught her everything that they needed her to know.
Speaker 2:But what a phenomenon. That's what you said. You've just played back that I've been recruiting the right way for the last 20 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you hear that person that says you know, I tried and I learned something and I'm getting it, then, yes, you are absolutely bang on there. Just that is the person that you need on your team, and good employers do recognize that Definitely.
Speaker 2:Well, it's a wonderful. There was a little video that I got sent recently. We talked about how all the programming languages have changed over time and if you look at that, it's only cycling even faster, and that is only cycling even faster. So if you believe that the reason you exist is because you're a C++ coder, you can guarantee if you looked at that timeline, c++ would be falling down the list of relevance and there'll be something else that will be the latest thing. Was it Python? I think there's loads of different languages.
Speaker 1:You know what was it? Python, I think.
Speaker 2:There's loads of different languages and actually the skill is the ability to pick the next language and learn and develop that rather than just be a C++ guru. So that ability to learn is actually more important than being a specialist in any one thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, because you are right, it does take a certain person to be in the tech industry as well. It's constantly changing. It's not like you land your first job and that's it.
Speaker 1:You know the really good people or the people that want to stick around, are constantly learning and developing, and you are right, once you get those individuals on your team, it's finding ways to keep them on your team. It's finding ways to keep them on your team, which some companies are really really good at, some not so much, but that's when good talent exits and goes elsewhere. Absolutely, phil. We are already out of time. I could keep talking to you on this topic for a lot longer this afternoon, but we are already out of time, I'm afraid. So thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. No-transcript.
