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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Redefining career success: Empowering your career transformation
Join us as we sit down with Lucile Kamar, a DEI Strategist, Career Transition & Leadership Coach, and Trainer. Lucile's journey is a powerful testament to the importance of self-awareness and resilience in the face of career challenges.
Beginning her professional path in human rights law and later specializing in diversity and inclusion, Lucile's world took a pivotal turn when she was diagnosed with mixed anxiety and depression. Realizing she wasn't extending the same compassion to herself that she advocated for others, she bravely decided to reassess her career goals and dreams.
Now, as a DE&I career consultant and coach, Lucile empowers individuals to navigate their careers with confidence and clarity. In this episode, she shares her insights on how to negotiate effectively, build resilience, and rekindle ambition. Lucile emphasizes the importance of self-advocacy, particularly for women who often prioritize others' needs over their own. Learn from her inspiring story and discover how to succeed on your career journey by rebalancing, retraining, and resetting your professional life. Tune in for an episode filled with practical advice and motivating stories that will help you put meaningful change into action.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing empowering your career transformation, stepping into your worth at work. I've got the amazing Lucille Kamar, a DEI strategist, career coach and international speaker, with me today and we're going to discuss self-awareness and resilience in the face of career challenges. Welcome, lucille. Thank you so much for joining me today on Spilling the Tea.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me Keely really excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I know you are a very busy lady and you talk at lots of wonderful events, and so thank you so much for taking the time to come and have a chat with us today on the podcast. Can we kick off with a bit of context about you, if that is okay, a little bit of background about you, where you're from, how you ended up doing what you were doing, how you fell into tech.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. And I would also like to start by saying for anyone listening I know it's so hard to make the time for yourself and your career and actually using tools such as podcasts, it's such an incredible way to grow your learning, to build more confidence and also allow yourself to dream a little bit and see what can be possible. So if you're listening to this podcast, really give yourself a pat on the back because it means that you're taking the first step to really advocating for yourself. But in terms of my background so I grew up in a mixed race family in very rural France, so I was always aware of that element of difference, of that element of belonging and not belonging, but also, very early on, having that awareness of privilege being quite white passing, and I think it can be really empowering and it can be a really interesting exercise for all of us to look at what is our privilege, what our privilege is, and it can be education. It can be the way you look, the way you talk, and really allows you to understand a bit more about where you fit in your career and also helps with the direction of travel. So, as I mentioned, a focus for me has been on always on justice, fairness and also empowerment of people of people. So my background is in human rights law and I've been working in diversity, equity and inclusion for over a decade now, which has flown by. But what I realized was that tech, specifically, was always embedded in all of the industries that I've worked on. So, although my role wasn't directly in tech, I was working a lot within the tech sector. So a tip for anyone who is either looking to transition into a career in tech or who is in a career in tech is any organization now will have a big department. Tech department will have opportunities for you to join so you can really tailor your passions when working in tech and open up your scope and allow yourself to dream a little bit bigger.
Speaker 2:And how I transitioned from being in-house so I became very senior as that on leadership, senior leadership teams and really owning diversity and inclusion strategies. And what I realized was that I was going through the motions with my career. I had done my five years plan. I had ticked or ticked all of the boxes of my five-year plans. I'd achieved everything, and then came to a point where I thought I've done everything on my plan. What's next? It came to a point where what do I want to do for the next five years of my life?
Speaker 2:So I was very fortunate to be able to look at what do I enjoy doing, what is the impact that I can have on the world, on people, on organizations, and also how can I be paid and rewarded for my job, which is quite an important part of it as well. So I set up my own business I suppose I'm a solo entrepreneur and I work with organizations who are on their diversity and inclusion journey, looking at how they can either attract, retain or grow the best talent possible. As well as speaking internationally, I've been again very fortunate to speak at conferences in the US, denmark, germany, france, in the UK, of course. So I do a lot of empowerment workshops on boundaries negotiations, resilience, how to navigate your career, and also started doing some career and leadership coaching, which again has been really rewarding and very impactful also for the women that I've been working with.
Speaker 1:Incredible, and it's one of the nice things about tech and one of the reasons why this podcast was started and we remind people of that a lot on here that there are so many careers in tech and there are so many routes.
Speaker 1:As you said, you know finding your way in and then finding a way to empower your career throughout tech as well, Once you've found your way in or transitioned in or whatever it may be. Once you've found your way in or transitioned in or whatever it may be, and then yourself, you know the way that you found yourself working with tech companies and what you do as well. There's such a broad range of career options within the tech industry and that's one of the great things about it and why we started this podcast to hear all of the different things that people do within the tech industry. We have got so much to unpack today. We'd love to hear a little bit more about you and your inspiring journey along the way, so if we could get started with. When we spoke previously, you mentioned that you'd been diagnosed with mixed anxiety and depression, so how did this diagnosis impact your career and personal life at the time?
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's a diagnosis that was that I received just under a year ago. So, looking back at how I've evolved since then and it was quite a big thing for me, which I realized, having worked in diversity and inclusion my role was very much to remove the stigma around mental health issues and creating organizations and cultures and frameworks really to allow for good mental health to take place. So, interestingly, there was a lot of mixed emotion for me to realize and accept that that was what was going on with me, and I spoke to my GP and I was quite surprised of the diagnosis. Well, not surprised, because I knew I wasn't doing well, but I was still performing at work, I was still delivering on my objectives.
Speaker 2:But there was specifically a time where I was at a conference in Manchester and the anxiety was so much that five minutes before going on stage and delivering my keynote, I was just sitting on the floor in the bathroom crying because it was so overwhelming and you know what, after I cried and then I went on stage, delivered no one would have known, and that really was the, the turning point, if you will, in saying there is something that that isn't right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I thought, um, it was actually a relief I was signed off of work and really started to build up back on my own resilience and really understanding what was the root cause of of my diagnosis and my experience as well.
Speaker 2:And it made me think about vulnerability and we think about vulnerability more and more as one of the most important qualities for leaders and, and especially relevant for leaders in tech. But what does vulnerability mean? And you know it's relatively easy for me to talk about my experience now, a year on, now that I'm feeling better, but actually true vulnerability is being able to talk about it while you're in the midst of what's happening. And it's really difficult because by being vulnerable, you'll run the risk if you don't have psychological safety in your organization, if you don't have support that it might impact your career or how people might see you. And actually by creating psychological safety and that support and working on your networks, but but also being that supportive network for people who might need that, we can allow for more vulnerability to take place in organization and um.
Speaker 1:I'm a firm believer that vulnerability means more vulnerability, creates more strength within your own career, but also within within your experience as a professional in tech definitely yes, and and I completely agree with you with that vulnerability, which is so hard sometimes, but it it just makes your story as well more authentic, that people can connect with you better. Um, I had a lady on this podcast a few months ago and she said to me once she started sharing one of the worst things that had happened to her. She turned that into a positive and she said take it as it was like she looked through my soul and I thought have I met you before? And she said think of the worst thing you've ever done and think of sharing that with people and being that that, that is your story. So if you're speaking at a public um event, and that is your story and that's, you know, one of the worst things that has happened to you. Then she said, being that vulnerable people can really connect with that.
Speaker 1:Um, and it was a little bit unnerving when she looked at me through the screen and said you know, think of the worst thing you've done, and I thought, oh gosh, but you're right, people can really connect with that. And you turned that into a positive when back, when you were thinking, you know you did your, you were speaking and before you had all that anxiety before and you were upset before and then you went out and you turned it into something very positive. Yeah, it's incredibly hard to do that, but it sounds like that was just a whole new chapter of your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And you know, what was also beautiful was I started talking to close friends who are also women in mid to senior level in a career and you know they started to share. Well, you know this, this is also how I feel, and by being almost that first person disclosing what's happening with you, you might open the door for other people to be more vulnerable and open and honest and create that shift, that change that can actually create a better environment, a more supportive environment, and allow you to really receive the support that you might need as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. And to hear other people's stories, oh my gosh, just to hear that other people have had not necessarily the same experience, but a similar experience. Or you're feeling bad and others have felt bad, especially when we see things on social media and think everybody looks like they have a perfect life. I'm the only one that had that terrible experience, you know. We just we don't need to see that all the time, and within she Can Coach community, we encourage that. We encourage people to share their bad stories as well. Share the bad things that have happened to you, because it does inspire other people and it does help other people to think you know what they pulled themselves out of that and they move forward with their career. Um, and and you know you can, you can still keep moving. You're not on your own, exactly exactly, and so I wanted to ask you a little bit about that, about resilience, um, and keeping you know, making sure that you keep going. So how do you approach helping clients navigate their careers and find resilience?
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's something that comes up times and times again I would say with 90% of my coaching clients and resilience is not only the ability to bounce back, it's the ability to bounce back in a healthier way and in a way that allows you to thrive later on. And right now, I think it's really a time to give ourselves a lot of grace in what we're feeling and understanding that what we're feeling is valid. Thinking back to the last four years, it has been an unprecedented wave of change. You know, we've had COVID, we've been hybrid working, there has been a lot of harrying the layoffs, especially in the tech industry, and now, you know, we're having AI being integrated and we don't know how that is going to happen. So uncertainty does impact our levels of resilience. Now, the good thing with resilience is that it can be learned, it can be dynamic, but it can also be really personal the way that you build your own resilience and the way that you look at how to become a more resilient person yourself and how you can build resilience within your team team. So an easy way to think about resilience is to think about the five C's of resilience, the first one being connection to others. It can be your teams, it can be networks, it can be communities such as Sheik and Code. The second one is communication. Do you have space to be open? Do you have space to be vulnerable and authentic?
Speaker 2:The third C is confidence. And confidence can also be around your idea of self-worth. I know that there are a lot of discussions around imposter syndrome, which have a lot of thoughts on imposter syndrome, but the confidence in your skills, your strengths, your qualities, but also in yourself as an individual, you know having confidence and self-worth for you as an individual, not because of your output, not because of what you deliver, but because of who you are, then we've got competence and commitment. So it's really around knowing that there is a path forward, that there is a framework, but also that you have the right tools, the right support in order to deliver what needs to be done. And then control and it doesn't have to be that you have to be a control freak it's knowing that you have a level of autonomy and a level of over your work. You've got a level of ownership over your, your project.
Speaker 2:So, based on those five C's, you can really evaluate your situations and say, well, I have a lot of control about what I do, but actually my connection to others is a bit weak. What can I do? But something that I would say also for resilience is being mindful about toxic resilience, which is similar to toxic positivity. Positivity and you touched on that a little bit when you mentioned on social media and LinkedIn or all of the other professionals or social networks where you share your successes without really giving the full picture and it's almost you're forced to showcase how well you're doing and how well you're connected, when actually this is a forced picture and can actually drive a cognitive dissonance where what your experience is and what you hold to be true is actually disconnected.
Speaker 1:So I'd be quite mindful, when talking about resilience, not to fall into that toxic resilience, toxic positivity yes, and I love the fact that you said resilience is is important to bounce back, but stronger than when you are because you're right. It's not just thinking I, but stronger than where you were because you're right, it's not just thinking I got back to where I was and I can keep going. You need to be stronger than you were before. Whatever happened happened. So you're definitely right there and in our careers sometimes it can be very hard to put yourself first and you're in the day to day and before you know it, the year is gone and you've got to the end of the year and you think I don't really know what happened, but I'm feeling very burnt out and perhaps I'm not feeling my best self and too many things happened this year that I did not want to happen in my career.
Speaker 1:But sometimes people reach that point, don't they, where they just think I have to step away from this and what is happening, and it's, it's dreadful when that happens because you think people shouldn't be pushed to that point. They shouldn't be pushed to the point of burnout, for instance, and feeling like they have to bounce back after something like, um, burnout, um, that companies should just be helping them along the way so they don't reach that point. Not everybody, obviously, is in a position or in a company that helps them with that. Though, talking about putting others' needs before our own, you've mentioned to me you you are a believer in, um that that women, they often put themselves, uh, their their needs, um, others needs before their own, which is can be very true. Um, how do you help women advocate for themselves and their career ambitions?
Speaker 2:so you said sometimes you know what the year runs away with you and you have not advocated for yourself yes and that's something that I've seen at time and times again is, as women, I feel like we've been conditioned to be the good girl and not making waves, and you know so. Typically, obviously, I will love the people who make waves, rock the boats, but sometimes in the workplace it can mean volunteering for social projects or doing the tasks that are helpful to the team, to the organization, but not so helpful when you look at it from a critical point of view to your career's advancement, if that's what you want to be doing. So you end up having done a lot of things you know, having, as you said, the year running away from it, without you realizing when actually you know, in terms of what you can say when it comes to your appraisal, you have done a lot above and beyond, but not really in a way that helps your career, and doing above and beyond can be great. So, for example, if you're leading a network, what are the skills that you can pick up by leading these networks? Is it leadership skills? Is it marketing? Is it connection? Is it empowering the next generation? Is it empowering the next generation? Um, but I I think that it's um, it's. It needs a reshift in thinking about, not from a transactional point of view. Uh, I'm not saying that you should approach your career, uh, the relationships that you have with people, from a very transactional. I give you the. I will do this if you give me that.
Speaker 2:Um, however, I think a lot of work that I do with my clients is really looking at how is your time spent at work and also, is your time spent at work in the best way to support your career ambition? And your career ambition might be learning new skills. It might be a promotion, it might be a pay rise. It might be a pay rise, um. So, really, um, learning to, um to understand first your needs and priorities and, um, and your ambitions, what you want to achieve, and something that, um, I like to mention is the tiara syndrome, which is something that, um, not many people have heard of, but many people would have experienced it.
Speaker 2:Simply put, the belief that a job performance will naturally lead to rewards and you know the fact that you've worked really hard and you're expecting that your land manager will say, will come to you and say you've done a great job.
Speaker 2:Here is your promotion, here is your pay rise, when actually, in an ideal world, this is how it would work. But we know that navigating your careers is slightly more complicated than that and where the TRS syndrome stems from, can be a discomfort, where self-promotion and networking, a lack of clarity about your personal brands and your ambition can also be about not having the right sponsors and your right the right mentors internally who can advocate for, for your behalf. Um, and you know, as women again, so typically we tend to give and expect to get something back in return, when actually that might not, that might not be the case. So I think, ultimately it's finding the balance between you know, understanding, being unapologetic about your ambitions and your needs and wants with your career, as well as balancing your authentic self and your authentic self can really be bringing your best self at work.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, I love everything that you just said.
Speaker 1:I'm definitely around things like pay rises.
Speaker 1:You know there's things that your line manager, like you said, is not just going to come to you and say you get this promotion and this pay rise because you've done x in the workplace.
Speaker 1:Um, it's something that you almost have to build into your career, your career path, and be open and honest about it as well, because um had a lady on here recently talking about uh, we were talking a bit about the taboo topic of pay rises and if you leave it till the end of the year and then kind of explode like I didn't get the pay rise that I wanted, she said that's not a good position to be in, whereas if you spread that out you know, amongst um quarterly reviews or wherever it may be, it's on the radar, you know it's there and it's trickled into the conversation that you would like that promotion, you would like a pay rise that goes with that, and that is something that is, um, uh, part of your ambition for, for being at that company, instead of getting to the end of the year or your work anniversary not getting what you wanted and then you just leave because you're so annoyed that that didn't happen. Um, so you're right. Just just um, employers don't always they're not mind readers. Um, I have been told that previously and, uh, they, they don't always know um what, what you want either yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2:I think the more, uh, the clearer you can be with your land manager about your ambition um, the the better, the better it is and the more likely you are to to achieve those, because they can't read your mind. They have their own um, their own career to look after, their own team to manage and their own the the work that they have to deliver. So, again, building up um that time with them to look at your career plan, what you need to achieve, that is a really great piece of advice that can be done really, really easily as well. And you know, looking for actively seeking feedback, but also giving them feedback as well. How best can they support you? Is there anything missing in a way that they support you?
Speaker 1:Yes, because that's everything.
Speaker 2:You're not a mind reader either that's right, yes, oh, yes, I love that, um going back to resilience and communication being part of a tool for resilience, exactly yes, and you're right.
Speaker 1:You mentioned that ladies um, have you know, in the past had that feeling of they can't speak up, they can't make waves? But if you're just letting somebody know this, this is what you know, this is my path, this is what I would like to be doing. That's that's not making waves, that's just being honest about what you would like to get out of that position move to the. You know where you would like to go with your career and, as you said, that is advocating for yourself and being mindful of that.
Speaker 2:And something that I found really interesting as well.
Speaker 2:I know we touched on salary negotiations and pay rises and actually that, as a motivator or priority um can be, it can be a motivator or priority for you. And again in the conversations with my coaching clients, I'm seeing more and more which is absolutely fantastic women saying to me actually one of my motivators is um having a higher salary, and we can be uncomfortable sometimes as women again asking for that pay rise or even admitting to ourselves or admitting, let alone admitting to others, that we want that pay rise. And seeing that shift in women apologetically saying to me you know what? I'm working with you because I want to be in the best way possible in order to get that bigger job title, that pay rise, and I will, you know, be quite open and honest about that being what I want. And I think it's incredibly inspiring for us to talk more openly about salary and about money in a work context and, you know, beyond work definitely, and especially when you're moving to a new job, I find that you tend to undersell yourself.
Speaker 1:You kind of like is is that okay as a salary? And you kind of go in a bit like, but it's negotiable, and you just don't say that because you're probably underselling yourself anyway. Um, and that company's thinking, lovely, we've just saved a load of money because we actually had x amount available for them. Um, so yeah, I find that, as, as women, we tend to go in very apologetic and be like is that, is that okay, that I asked for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and um. Something that that I found was when you're having a discussion with a recruiter, it's a bit harder when you do that internally. But if you're moving into an external role, when you're being asked the questions, what are your salary expectations? It goes back to the salary, the anchoring point, and if you anchor your salary expectations lower than what they had budgeted for, you might not get that they had budgeted for. You might not get what they had budgeted. So an easy way to say is to respond to that question is is to just say I'm not, I don't have a full understanding yet of the scope of the role and the organization. So what, what have you budgeted for this role, salary wise and package wise? Can you give me a salary bracket?
Speaker 1:yes, yes, that's. That's a good tactic, because normally companies play it very close to their chest, yeah, and they're waiting for you to say something that is less than what they had budgeted. Um, so you're right, yeah, just um, throwing it back in their court and seeing if they will actually say is really good advice. What strategies do you recommend for individuals looking to rebalance, retrain or reset their careers so kind of finding that fulfillment and, as we've mentioned before, unapologetically going for what they want?
Speaker 2:apologetically going for what they want. Yes, so I'm a big advocate for, for boundaries, um, and and again, I think it can be the most empowering um thing that you do that you do for yourself. And again, it can be quite difficult because we're almost conditioned to um, to want to be liked or to be nice and to be helpful, and actually being helpful to others might not be being helpful to to us, and with boundaries, ultimately, you can see it as if I say no to this thing or this person, it means that I can say yes to something else that either fulfills me, helps me find more balance, or it's just something that I found more interesting. And an exercise that I like to do, which I love, is really understand. You know, we talked about what are your needs, and it can be needs around. I need to have a challenging project. I need to have a catchup with my manager every two weeks, but also looking at boundaries, a list of boundaries, because boundaries ultimately is it's about the experience that you want to have day-to-day in your career. So it can be behaviors, it can be around how you work, when you work, and you can.
Speaker 2:An exercise that I like is doing having three columns and using a red, amber and green way to look at your boundaries. So red will be the completely unacceptable behaviors. So it can be something like this comment was inappropriate. You know, let's keep our discussions respectful. It can be I will not be checking my emails over the weekend and the boundaries will be those thresholds boundaries so you can really name them, quantify them and you can say I can work past 7 pm, but only twice in a week. And again, those are examples and you'll have to do something around. You'll have to tailor it depending on your situations and green will be those flexible boundaries and it can be. I don't mind an early start, but that's because on that day I don't have the school run to do. And something with boundaries is understanding that your green boundaries might be someone else's red or amber and vice versa.
Speaker 2:But also your boundaries can change throughout your life. You know, if you're going through a different life stage, going through the menopause, your boundaries might change as well. And you know, looking at boundaries, practicing boundary statements is also a very useful way. So being able to say, hmm, that has not been my experience, or I'd be happy to help, but I need a day or two to respond Saying to someone. I feel undermined. If you bring this up in front of everybody, next time please talk to me in private. I'm confident in my decision. So, again, really practicing boundaries, and I find it a really practical and really easy way to implement um balance or find balance um, and really help you set your um, set your career in a way that is more fulfilling and really helps you going for what you want.
Speaker 1:Yes. So I love the fact that you have some statements there as well that help. That just so so helpful when you're in that position and you think I don't know how to set this boundary, especially if it was with you know a boss or somebody that you just think I just cannot say no to um and and you have to go along with things.
Speaker 2:So to have some statements ready is is um really really useful um, definitely yeah, and you can practice with you know a friend, or you know in the, in the chic and good communities. Um, I think having a discussion around what statements have you found that you have found helpful is a really good way to pull resources and really again finding good practice and trusting that those can work definitely yes, and just having them in your back pocket and hearing other people have said definitely brilliant advice there, I think with boundaries as well, it's very um.
Speaker 1:It works both ways, because it's good for other people to know your boundaries and it's almost like the other members of your team they know when you're around, when you're not around, they know when to expect to be able to find you and when when you're not, and when you're, you're doing something else.
Speaker 1:So, um, having those healthy boundaries is good for everybody. Um, and I know they kind of got a little bit blurred during COVID and everybody seemed they thought they had to be available 24 7 for everyone, um, which luckily we seem to be um, getting back to normal and setting those boundaries again. But, um, yeah, it's just good for everybody to have those in place, especially if you've got things like school runs to be doing, um, and that you're not going to be around at certain hours. Just don't expect to find me online at those hours. Um, then your team knows that and they respect that and they just think, yeah, I can't find that person at that time, but I'll catch them at a different time in the day and they don't have that frustration of thinking you're offline yeah, and you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, when you're working a team, it's about having that discussion as a team and there is an element of negotiation. There's perhaps an element of amber boundaries as well, because you're the way. Your ways of working have to also work with the ways of working of your team and ultimately they are deliverables to be achieved.
Speaker 1:So having that open conversation with your land manager, but also as a team, really helps everyone feeling valued, heard and respected, collectively and individually definitely, yes, yes, I couldn't agree more sharing, sharing your thoughts and communicating, more of work definitely, um, what advice would you give to someone who feels stuck in their career but is unsure how to make a change?
Speaker 2:yes, it all felt like that at one point, yes, and and I think it's a lot more common that um, that we might think um, and I'd firstly recommend looking at at what stage of your career you'll find yourself in right now. Are you in a growth stage where you don't mind the, the hours, you don't mind working hard, you don't mind going the extra mile? Or are you in more of a balanced stage of your career where you have other priorities? You're happy growing, you're happy delivering and learning, but you also have priorities outside of the, the workplace, and not saying that when you're in your growth phase you don't have priorities outside, but in your balance um, work takes less precedence. Or are you in a reinvention phase where you might be pivoting in another industry or in another role and, especially with um, a career in tech and the tech industries? We're seeing a lot more people, a lot more women, pivoting and going into, shifting towards a career in tech, which is really exciting. So, firstly, really being clear about where in your career phase you're in right now you might want to be doing a values exercise, both from the type of company that you you might want to be doing a values exercise, both from the type of company that you want to be working in, the type of role that you want to be working on, the type of team, but also what's important for you. Is it having impact? Is it having a lot of fun? Is it learning? Is it the delivering? So, really understanding your values and your motivators can be quite helpful. You can find online really easily a list of values, but when I do this exercise with my clients, we usually take about an hour and we find value statements. And we find value statements and it can be really helpful when making decisions as to applying for roles or advocating for yourself or putting yourself forward for a project at work.
Speaker 2:And another way is to really find your internal and to find, to understand, whether your motivators are internal or external. So very often we um, we see people. I have, I have discussions with people saying, well, you know, my next step is a promotion and really interrogating that you know. Oh, it's interesting that you say that. Tell me more and say, well, it's just the way things are, my family expects it, or this is the way things um happen in my, in my culture. So, you know, ultimately, is that something that you want to be doing or is it something that you felt pushed from an external point of view when actually there might be that disconnect and that's not really what you want to be doing at all.
Speaker 2:I was speaking to a lady recently and she was saying how she's struggling to find motivation to go for another qualification. And when we were digging a little bit deeper, we understood that her priorities were not this qualification, but she just wanted a way to differentiate herself and put the best chances forward to um for her next role, and actually reflecting on that qualification wasn't adding that much value in order to do that. So reflecting on, is there something that I'm told I should be doing, I should be wanting, I should be going for? Uh, or is it something that I really want to be doing?
Speaker 1:Yes, I've had that discussion with ladies who wanted to step, thought that they wanted to step into leadership, and then they got there and they said you know what it's really lonely and I really miss my team and I just liked being part of the day to day and I'm not allowed now to share a lot of what I'm doing, because you don't want to spook people. If you're obviously very senior, you can't be sharing your feelings and and and this lady was like I just wish I hadn't gone with, like you said, that external. I feel like perhaps I shouldn't be having that title, but this isn't really what I'm enjoying. Um, you're right, and and that comes from, as you said as well, different points in your life. I love the fact you said there's a point in your life where you might want something that's very balanced, and I spoke with three new parents this week for the podcast and they're all in that stage of their life where they are so appreciative that they're a good company, that of their life where they are so appreciative that they're a good company that gives them the flexibility to have newborns and to work around their families, and that is that. That that. So it's that important life stage that they're going through, where they have that mental security in the workplace, um, and that is what they're looking for at the moment.
Speaker 1:And then you said obviously there's that other one with reinvention.
Speaker 1:You know can be a completely different life stage where work, the importance of work, can kick back in again.
Speaker 1:And you're right, it's so personal as well, it's not an external thing, it's so personal to what motivates you.
Speaker 1:I realised recently, being at she Can, can Code, that I had been at several startups previously and I'd gone around the houses a little bit and then those startup turned into big companies and then I realized that I just love being a startup because we move so fast here and mentally it's so much fun to say you know, know what, this podcast, we were going to start a podcast and that took off. And when we look back and we say you know what, we can be so agile here and move so fast, whereas I've been at companies where I have sat there and I'm motivated, I almost didn't want to go in because we'd have meetings about meetings, about meetings. And then you know, a whole quarter would go by and we haven't achieved anything. So nobody else would know that, only you and how you feel in your day to day, whereas here we say we might have to sue for whiplash because we move so fast and so many changes happen, but it means it keeps us moving.
Speaker 1:It keeps us excited and motivated, but it means it keeps us moving. It keeps us excited and motivated and that is something that I hadn't realised only really until recently, that that is a motivator of mine and, as you said, it's an internal thing, not an external thing. I suppose it takes you a little while in your career, doesn't it, before you really start to look at what was motivating me in that workplace compared to a different workplace why was I doing that?
Speaker 2:you know yeah yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Um, looking back on your own career, is there anything that you would have done differently?
Speaker 2:yes, um, many things, but you know there's the there's always a learning, but definitely I would have been advocating for myself way earlier. You know there has been so many situations where I've stepped up. I took extra responsibilities and, you know, really waited for it to be recognized, be it from a land manager, but also a colleague that I helped out, and actually you know they might not step up when you need them. So really advocating for myself, being very clear about my needs and want, but also being able to say no and having strong boundaries as well. The second thing was learning how to negotiate effectively, and you know negotiation is not just about money. It's also about your ways of working, the relationship that you have with colleagues, stakeholders, clients. So really understanding your almost I like to think of negotiation personas that you have, which styles are your you're the most more comfortable with and how to flex the styles that you use in different situations.
Speaker 2:And then, lastly, network and connect. Um, connect earlier, um, I've been really fortunate that I find networking quite easy. I enjoy networking because I see it as an exchange more than a transaction and learning about people, and you find, with networking events, there's always someone who feels just as awkward or uncomfortable as you, so if you get together, you'll have you'll have a good time. Um, but I found also that the impact that you can have when you help people and it might be that helping people might be commenting on their posts on LinkedIn or sending them a message um, mentoring someone, but also learning that if you're looking for a mentor in your career, sending a message to someone and asking them and being very clear about where you're connecting with them, what a mentoring relationship will look like and what you're hoping to get out of it, nine times out of 10, they will respond and they'll be quite flattered.
Speaker 2:Um to to be asked there. There are times where people are really busy and they won't be able to mentor you, but more often than not, they will be really happy. But also knowing that you as yourself, regardless of the stage of your career that you're at, you can be inspiring to someone. You can give back. You don't have to be sitting on a board to be mentoring someone or giving back or really having an impact in someone else's career. So finding a way again to be supportive to other women in their career is a really fantastic way to to really drive your career forward but also find that fulfillment, if that's something that um you like doing definitely, and I think you're so right it's finding the time as well, the space to to do that.
Speaker 1:And, um, I love the fact that you, you, um, you advocate for resetting as well, and resetting your career, and almost taking that time to think I need to do something different and, instead of getting to the point where you make that knee-jerk reaction, you go into something that you perhaps didn't want to go into and you know, you just think, gosh, why did I do it? Why did I not take the time to just, or why didn't I go and talk to Lucille and ask her to help me to figure out.
Speaker 1:You know what are my motivators. What do I want to do next?
Speaker 2:Because you're saving so much time in the long run.
Speaker 1:Exactly exactly, rather than making that wrong move. We had a discussion on one of our live webinars about how long would you stick out a job that you didn't enjoy because it looks bad on your CV? And then you think, should I just be honest with my next employer that actually that wasn't for me? There was nothing wrong with the company, but it just didn't work, or you know, do you stick that out or do you have all your confidence crushed by the time you leave? You know it's kind of there is that and you just don't want to find yourself in that position in the first place. Is is the best advice there, um, to take the time to to make your next move. So, lucy, what can we expect from you next? What? What are your plans and how can our community connect with you further?
Speaker 2:yes, thank you for asking, and I'm planning on continuing coaching women usually they are new to senior women looking at who are the point of transition within their career and transition being either going for promotion, going for a completely different role, completely different industry, or who are looking to find more balance within their lives, continuing working with organization to really help them create that culture of belonging, but also how to encourage everyone to thrive.
Speaker 2:But something really interesting that we've been working together with chic and code is a workshop, a free workshop on boundaries, which will help you understand how boundaries can help you achieve career success and fulfillment, and we'll be looking at the different types of boundaries, how to craft boundaries that work for you, be it physical, emotional, communications, and you'll be, you'll leave being feeling really empowered to to say no and create a life, a work life, that fulfills your, your success, both at work and and outside of work. So this is happening on the 28th of august at 4 pm. You'll need to register and become a member of the she can code community and it should be really exciting. And in the meantime, connect with me on linkedin, send me a message and I will look forward to hearing your story, celebrating your successes lovely.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're so excited to have you um uh present a webinar to our community. They're going to absolutely love it. Um, and to our listeners, will you include the link to register um below in the blurb, and lucille's contact details as well, and because you definitely want to shoot her a note and definitely don't want to miss her webinar, um, so we look forward to seeing all of our uh listeners on there as well. Um, lucille, we were already out of time. I could keep talking to you, as you can see, on this subject um all afternoon. Uh, because it is so, so important and so interesting, um, but we are already out of time. So thank you so much for coming on um and joining me today. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you and likewise thank you for your time thank you and for everybody listening, as always.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
