SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Crafting Your Tech Persona: Building a Standout Personal Brand
In this episode, we delve into the dynamic world of personal branding within the tech sphere. Join Zsofia Kiss, Senior technical recruiter and Laila Kelada, Senior Product Manager, both from Wise, as they unpack the essentials of establishing a compelling personal brand in the ever-evolving tech landscape.
Drawing from their combined expertise, Zsofia navigates the intricacies of what sets candidates apart when vying for technical roles. Meanwhile, Laila offers firsthand perspectives on how cultivating a distinct personal brand has shaped her journey as a tech professional. Together, they explore strategies for showcasing technical prowess, fostering meaningful connections within the industry, and leveraging online platforms to amplify one's professional presence.
Tune in as we unravel the art of crafting your tech persona and unlocking doors to exciting opportunities in the digital landscape.
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Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in Again. I am Kayleigh Bateman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing crafting your tech persona, building a standout personal brand. I've got two amazing ladies with me today. I've got Sophia Kiss, Senior Technical Recruiter, and Lila Kalada, Senior Product Manager, both from Wise, with me today and we're going to unpack the essentials of establishing a compelling personal brand in the ever-evolving tech landscape. Welcome, ladies. Thank you so much for joining us on Spilling the Tea.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having us very excited.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having us as well.
Speaker 1:It's a pleasure to have you on. I know you're both very busy ladies at WISE and we have a lot to unpack today, so can we kick off with a bit of context about each of you please? A little bit of background about you, how you got into tech and how you ended up at Wise Sophia. Should we start with you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would love to Thank you so much again for having us here, and so my name is Sophia and I have been an engineering and technical recruiter for close to 10 years, and out of those 10 years, I've been here at Wise for about three and a half years and it has been technical recruitment that I've done all my life, never looked at anything else.
Speaker 1:So we can say that engineers and technical people are my bread and butter, nice, nice. And when you were younger, would you say that you were that person that knew you were going to work in the tech industry? Or was that kind of just a lot of us just fall into the tech industry and we're really pleased that we fell into it, but did you have any kind of aptitude for tech when you were younger?
Speaker 3:I have played around with the idea of becoming a software engineer when I was in high school but I just felt that my math skills are not really up to the level that these folks need to have. So I've shifted into psychology. That's where I got my bachelor's degree and also my master's. And becoming an HR person, becoming a recruiter, was kind of a natural progression to my career. I landed an internship as an intern recruiter and I never looked back, and that was almost 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:Amazing. It's nice when people do say they found their way in, but they stayed. So it was just sometimes one of the best things that ever happened to us. I was one of those people that fell into tech and I just stayed. No matter how we get in, we get in.
Speaker 3:I guess we made a good decision then, both of us Exactly exactly you tend to stay once you are in Laila yourself.
Speaker 1:can you tell us a little bit about you and how you ended up at Wise?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely so. Wise was kind of relatively newer. It it was more recruiter reached out. So fairly fairly simple.
Speaker 2:But I think how I kind of initially got into tech is a bit of a random story. I have a very basic business degree. I had no clue what I wanted to do. I'm half Egyptian and I don't speak Arabic. So I actually moved to the Middle East to try to learn Arabic. Unfortunately, my Arabic is still really terrible, so I wouldn't say I, you know, moved leaps and bounds there and when I was there I wanted to start a business.
Speaker 2:But I was incredibly young, you know, early twenties, very fresh faced, and I knew I needed to get kind of expertise. So I essentially got a one-way ticket to London. I had no job, I had nothing on the cards. I ended up posting a thing on Facebook back when I had Facebook saying job hunting in London, if anyone knows, and it just so happened a friend reached out and that's how I actually got into tech, which is very random. And then, once in tech, I had no idea what product was and kind of fell into it a little bit more naturally and I did have to actually fight pretty hard to get into it. It wasn't, you know, an open door type situation. And then many, many, many years later I had tons of essentially by Wise and incredibly ecstatic, has a fantastic product culture, and I've been at Wise now for two years has a fantastic product culture and I've been at Wise now for two years.
Speaker 1:Amazing. And when, when somebody reached out and said, you know, going into tech, did you think that was going to be really technical? And then you thought, actually, you know, product is a really nice mix of. You don't have to be overly technical, you don't have to have computer science degree, but you still have to understand all of the vocabulary. You have to be a really good communicator. What were your first thoughts when somebody was like heck.
Speaker 2:Like panic, massive insecurities, imposter syndrome, like everything you can think of. I mean, I used to have to power pose in the bathroom before I came to work every day because I was so nervous, but yeah, I think it's incredibly daunting.
Speaker 2:But once you're in it and I think this is the biggest thing is you learn so much on the job that it is something that you pick up, and I think it's so much about just having a really good starting point and a good base and prioritizing learning. You know early but yeah, I mean early days full blown panic. Once you get into it and you go to the deep end you're going to do great.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I'm pleased you said that, because there's one of the reasons why this podcast was started, just so people could hear you don't have to be techie for every role, and you just almost wish that more people knew that more people would want to come into the tech industry and not find it a daunting place. If you know know what, I'm not that techie person. I'm not good at these types of subjects, maybe I just can't work in tech, but actually there are so many roles that one of the reasons why this podcast was started just to share all the different types of roles, so people don't have that feeling or don't find themselves power posing in the bathroom thinking God's, why did I take this job?
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I think there's yeah, there's so much more to it and I think you also notice, especially, you know, once you get into the more and you try different tech companies and you see the people who really succeed and you know progress very quickly are those who are incredibly strong communicators, incredible in ambiguity and can kind of remain calm in a storm. Those are the people that succeed and those are the traits that will always push people through. Um, so, yeah, again, it's not necessarily the technical knowledge like that you can learn. It's, yeah, very character-based.
Speaker 3:yes, definitely I can also. I can also second this very much because even as a recruiter, you do need to begin developing your technical acumen and your technical knowledge as time progresses. But you don't need to know a lot of technical stuff in order to become a recruiter and begin this job. Time will bring the knowledge along with itself and you will start to learn things about product development and engineering and project management and QA and whatever other field is out there. So definitely lots of imposter syndrome happening at the beginning, regardless of what part of the tech domain you're in. The confidence will come as you grow and as you become a better professional.
Speaker 1:Definitely yes, and you're right with you. In tech recruitment, just understanding the skills and knowing what people need for certain roles doesn't necessarily mean that you have to know how they're going to do their jobs. That's not your job, and I always used to think that with tech PRs. I used to look at tech PRs and think they know so much about all of these products and they know all the small details about something that's being released, but they don't actually work on the products. That's the thing you know. They're not techie people, they just know how to talk about them. And so I kind of used to look and think how do you know so much about, about this thing that they just knew the words to use and how to market that particular product? The same in recruitment you know the skills that are needed, but you don't have to be technical yourself. That's why you're hiring the tech people. But it still means that you have a very important job in the tech industry, which, in yourself, comes with lots of different skills as well.
Speaker 1:I just wish more people knew that about the tech industry. So we have got a lot to talk about. Today we're going to talk about personal brand. So, sophia, can we start with you. From your perspective, what are some common mistakes that candidates make when trying to establish their personal brand?
Speaker 3:Well, I think this is a really interesting question because I've observed in my recent years that you can do a lot of things to derail your personal brand, for example, by over-communicating irrelevant or false content on various types of social media, creating a persona that is not you and therefore it's really hard to maintain on the long term, or simply just focusing on your online presence entirely. However, if you can make the best impression on anyone, regardless of domain or professional area, if you remain authentic and true to yourself and your values, and also if you promote and showcase pieces of work that you are proud of, yes, I couldn't agree more with what you just said about trying to maintain that if you're putting something out on social media that is not true to you, that is so, so difficult to to keep going with.
Speaker 1:That it might secure you your first or second job or whichever role that you're looking for. But if you're not authentic to yourself and we actually have an event this week about being your authentic self because your team really knows that, it's almost like they can pick up on that and then when you do move into leadership positions, your team are not going to get behind you. They don't feel like you're authentic. And if that personal brand throughout that whole time has been kind of constructed to look fabulous on social media and actually people get in and they might work for you, for instance, and they're like, actually that doesn't connect with who you seem to be on social media. You're so, so right, um, very hard to keep up. Do you notice that um, accuracy? As a tech recruiter, do you notice that perhaps you might interview? And then you think but you don't really connect with what we were looking at on social media because you must google people right and get like a picture of them ready for an interview and then think well, that doesn't connect.
Speaker 3:Well, to be entirely honest, I do not necessarily Google people.
Speaker 3:I do try to stick to official types of social media like LinkedIn or GitHub or any of those official platforms that are for professionals. But I definitely agree that trying to stay honest and humble is going to bring you a long way, even if you become a lead or even if you're just interviewing for a job. It just helps you build trust and credibility within your network and, yes, indeed so if I see something that the way you act which doesn't really resonate with how your CV looks, it is going to potentially raise some red flags, especially at Wise. We're very much a mission-driven and we're very much a mission-driven company, so we would like to bring people on board who have the same values as we do, and one of the values that we have is no drama, good karma, which I think is one of the best values that we have here at the company. Just be your authentic self, be honest to your audience, and it's going to make you more relatable and it's going to bring you a long way.
Speaker 1:I love that. I think every company should have that on the door as they come in no drama, good karma, definitely, and a great way to um to have that in mind when you're interviewing as well. And so, whether or not somebody um is going to be a good fit for your team or to add to that team as well not just fitting sometimes, but add to to them as well. Um, linda, what about you? Can we talk a little bit about your personal journey and working in product? Can you share a little bit about that journey in building your own personal brand within the tech space, and what strategies have you found most effective in doing so?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely Good question. So when I first got into product, I was at a essential logistics tech company and I was focused more on like account management and growth strategies, and I got bored very quickly. I think I'm someone who likes to juggle multiple things at once, which is probably why product is suited to me, and it very much started where I had an amazing director and I took him out for a coffee and I said I don't know what I want to do with my life, which I think is actually very common for most people in their early twenties. I think I'm just going to label it for what it is. We don't know what we want, and that's okay, and I think everything's an evolution and maybe I'll pivot in 10 years, who knows. And so he said just wrote it down, things that I liked, what I didn't like. And he said you know what that sounds like product? And so, unfortunately, he ended up leaving the company fairly soon after and so I kept pitching them. Could I just get some exposure? One day a week they said no. I took a coding course. They continued to say no and I just kept getting no's. You know, turn in my face and it's very hard to actually get a product role if you don't have product experience. And then it's very chicken and egg and I was like then how do I get the experience? So it's definitely quite tricky. So I eventually tried to make myself as invaluable as possible to the company till eventually they said yes, but I was very adamant that I wanted to just prioritize learning as much as possible, and so I just wanted to get something under my belt very quickly. And then one of the biggest priorities for me was learning, trying to find a really great mentor, and so there are some incredible networks within London that definitely helped me do that. One. There's something called Women in Product. They host events Incredible for networking. Highly recommend them. There's also other product events like Product Tank. I think those are less valuable for people starting, but still a great way to expose yourself and really build up your network.
Speaker 2:Taking courses like General Assembly have courses. I wouldn't necessarily say the course was a game changer, but it's the people you meet at the course that support you. I think that's actually where the money's at Um. And then, similarly, I would actually message people a lot on LinkedIn and just ask them if they want to go for coffee with me. Um, sometimes this worked, sometimes it didn't, um, but you know, I I think of those people now and actually when I get messages coming through, it's very much like a pay it pay it forward type situation where I nine times out of 10 will say yes, um, because I know how valuable that was for me in the beginning of my career.
Speaker 2:Um, and likewise, sniffing out the best recruiters um, these people work, will work for you, and it's very hard to be your own advocate. It's incredibly isolating and, as I mentioned, so many doors get closed in your face early on in your career. Recruiters are perfect advocates for you and then getting referrals within those companies as well. So that's kind of how I managed to do it.
Speaker 2:But I think the big thing here was, yeah, I prioritized learning, which meant taking things like a pay hit, looking at things like okay, what's the trajectory? Would I learn more in a startup or an established company? The reality is startups you'll learn a lot more and I think you'll learn actually some really valuable core skills like communication in the madness, staying calm, you know, wearing multiple hats, I think. So I'd probably advocate for people starting out to focus more on that than a very well-established company. But again, it's whatever you prefer, and company culture was super important. So yeah, that's kind of how I dipped out into it. I wouldn't say there was one thing that propelled me. It was multiple, and I'd be lying if I said it was easy. I had to work exceptionally hard at it, um, so that was the. That's how I got into product amazing.
Speaker 1:There were so many things that you just said there. I was thinking yes, I completely agree with you, especially on startups.
Speaker 1:Such a good place to to get started. Um, we've had a few conversations on this podcast about just working in a startup just makes you, just sets you up for everything else that you're going to do. And even if you decide to never work at a startup again, everything that you learn at that first company I love the fact that you call it communication in the madness is exactly what that is. You've got more responsibility, you're accountable for more things because there's nobody else there and you just have to learn so fast and learn to be agile. And it's very, very good fun. It can be very, very challenging and you are right, that's really good, a very good baptism of fire to create your personal brand and to figure out who you are and also where you want to go moving forward. So I couldn't agree more with starting at startup and then deciding where you want to go from that if you want to stay or not, stay in the craziness and I couldn't agree more with finding a network.
Speaker 1:Obviously, it's something that we advocate for, um, at chicancode and within our community. You can uh, we have this map in our community that people just go mad for and, um, you can see where all of our members are based and like, if you want to reach out to people, you can direct message them and ask for a coffee. You can be like, hey, I'm in london, come and have a coffee and just finding people that are near you to be able to pitch questions to or meet up with. So, so important, because you just never know who you're going to bump into, even at events. I found that's really good. You never know who you find yourself chatting to in the line for the ladies and it's somebody that actually just turns out to be a really good connection for you, just chatting, waiting for the ladies at a random tech event.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I couldn't agree more. Building out that network is so, so important and so easy. Especially nowadays, if you're working remotely, it can be quite easy to kind of disappear into yourself and become a little bit siloed in perhaps just your team at work and not teams you know networks outside of your company either, so it's great you're very mindful of that as well. I'm kind of thinking not just for now but for the future, and even people that you met when you were learning on your courses. I couldn't agree more with with networking.
Speaker 2:Um, obviously it's a very powerful, underrated. I think it's a tool that they almost they never teach us, especially growing up, is, um, you know, I think so much of the time we're taught, yeah, just go to class, get a good grade and then we think it'll, you know, it'll come to us, and the reality is that's just so not the case. Like I think, yeah, I think, especially as women, I have to say we have to hustle a lot more um, and really really push ourselves. So definitely, yeah, make yourself uncomfortable. If you're uncomfortable, it's probably working.
Speaker 3:I can fully relate to these thoughts as well, and I can. I can absolutely second what you said, and I think it is a very scary experience. To even I mean walking up to someone is the scariest experience ever. But even just to message someone directly and and ask them about, um, you know about any kind of advice about a specific topic, um, it's shockingly terrifying, but it is so worth it. So, just like the both of you said, it is going to um benefit you in one way or another. Maybe you're actually chatting to your next mentor, uh in in, you know, uh, lying to the ladies room. So it is definitely getting worth getting out of your comfort zone and just taking that tiny baby step forward. Um, it's going to take you a long way yes, yeah, especially if it's your next mentor.
Speaker 3:Yes, my gosh, what you would learn from that just striking up a conversation with that person and what you would learn from them there was actually a gentleman who I've spoken to a couple months ago and he has mentioned to me that he does take the time to spend uh one hour each month to connect with someone within his own network but who is related to who's representing some kind of technical or professional knowledge that he is not familiar with, and he actually said it is almost worth a complete MBA by the end of the year. He receives so much intel and advice. So definitely I would recommend to anyone to to take this step and just reach out. I'm sure, uh, just like Leila said, nine out of ten people will reply back and will take 20 minutes just to talk to you, because it is a pay-forward thing yeah, that's a really good goal to set, yourself as well.
Speaker 1:To do that um every month or or whenever, I mean by the end of the year, um, your year would look very different to the previous year and the people that you've reached out to and the things that you've learned. Um, a really good personal goal to to set, that's great advice.
Speaker 2:One of the biggest values of this is actually salary. When you start speaking to people, I think people become more comfortable and you can also find out okay, like am I getting what I'm worth? And you will very quickly notice women are typically underpaid. I don't know if I can say this, but I'm going to.
Speaker 1:I completely agree and we hear that a lot. Yeah, it's not until you start talking to other people and you have that moment where you go hang hang on. I have the page.
Speaker 3:And I think this is a different type of difficult conversation that we have to go through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I think there's yeah, it's a very awkward conversation because again, it's like growing up, no one tells you to talk about this, but it's so important and like know your worth and I think you know. Going back to this thing of authenticity, it's like no, I am worth your worth and I think you know. Going back to this thing of authenticity, it's like no, I am worth this amount. And I know this is a benchmark and it's a great way to benchmark yourself and again, then you can become more confident over time and become your own advocate, to really start start pushing it, because no one's going to give you anything. You really do have to fight for it. I definitely found networking to be super useful. And then everyone's like you really do have to fight for it. Yes, I definitely found networking to be super useful. And then everyone's like okay, but do these guys? They pay women? Well, are they going to like, knock us down a notch? Because unfortunately, it does happen.
Speaker 1:It does. It's one of those subjects that it's like a taboo subject that nobody talks about but everybody wants to know about as well, and it's like the more transparent people can be, the better, because that's a better way of getting people to join a company, to to stay at a company and to know that you're valued as well. There's nothing worse than getting in and thinking, oh god, I've just had a conversation with somebody, another company, and I've realized, actually, I might be slightly underpaid. And then you kind of have that feeling of, oh, maybe I should look somewhere else, and you know, nobody wants that feeling of, oh, maybe I should look somewhere else, and you know, nobody wants that feeling. They want to know that they got off on a good start, they are valued and they want to stay there, and some companies are really good at that and they retain people for a really long time.
Speaker 1:But you're right, it's something that everybody wants to know about and the more people that are willing to talk about it, the better to know about, and the more people, um, that are willing to talk about it, the better. We're actually, um, going to be hosting a webinar on that soon, because it is a topic that keeps coming up and people want to know um about uh salaries and whether or not, as well, it's okay to ask for a pay rise. If you do feel that you're undervalued, how do you approach that and do when do you approach that um and not just get into the point where you think I'm just gonna have to leave because I don't feel like I can ask for a pay rise if I feel like you know you're at a point where you deserve one um. So, yeah, it keeps coming up. It's something that we are going to address um as well, because some, some companies are very good um at being transparent and retaining uh their women in tech, tech and others not so much.
Speaker 2:so we're going to try and address that in one of our events.
Speaker 2:You're absolutely right yeah, and I think wise actually does that pretty well like we're very public in terms of these are the bands, this is how you progress, and I think providing that clarity does make you feel more comfortable. But also it's like asking becomes less of a burden because they've taken the company, has taken the initiative to say, hey, this is what I need from you, this is where you are, these are you know the bands across different um, yes, yes, I think takes that paranoia away from you as well, you just know exactly
Speaker 3:stand. I think salary conversations should never be, um, frustrating and it should never make you feel that you're asking something you shouldn't be asking right away, upfront, without being shady of any kind or being, you know, trying to phrase my sentences in a way that I'm trying to get information out of you and not being transparent at the same time. So I think, again, this connects to one of the wise values, but being transparent to the customer and also to people that are working as wisers. I think this is a great thing.
Speaker 1:Definitely yes. People just want to know where they stand. If their employer is transparent in every way, then yes, they know that normally they want to stay there for the long term. We have lots of ladies in our community that are transitioning from different industries and we really don't care where our ladies come from or what point in their career that they decide to fall into tech, whether they've been in tech 10, 15 years already and they're coming in for their first job. So, sophia, I wanted to ask you a little bit about that For candidates who may be transitioning into tech from other industries what advice do you have for them in terms of building a relevant and compelling personal brand?
Speaker 3:I think one of the main topics that is definitely worth mentioning here is networking, which we have talked about already quite extensively, so I don't think I need to mention that again. But you know, just keeping in mind that, building those deep, real life connections and word of mouth recommendations, those are very, very powerful things to have on your side. But the other thing I thought would be worth highlighting is the portfolio, so your professional presence, whether it is on your LinkedIn, on a website, or, if you're an engineer or software developer, on your GitHub. It is never too early to begin working on a portfolio that showcases your best works, and it doesn't matter how small or insignificant you feel that piece of work is. It could be a pet project, research you've done for your studies.
Speaker 3:The sky is the limit, literally, in terms of what you can showcase. I think the most important thing is that you be proud of what you have achieved and don't be afraid to show it off. So we have all began somewhere back in the day when we were very young and in our 20s and we had nothing to show sort of like very little to show. So just pick the ones that you feel are highlighting the transferable skills that you have from the previous domain where you're transitioning from and make sure that those are catching the hiring managers and the recruiter's eye when, when you're applying, or whether they're in your cv or in or in a letter of motivation. You will very likely grab someone's attention with this and likely you will land the job at the end.
Speaker 1:Yes, brilliant advice, especially about a portfolio.
Speaker 1:I had somebody tell me once that you should always bear your portfolio in mind, because if you've just done something, a project, and you want to update your portfolio, your best to do it then, even if you're not looking for a job, because sometimes you have that moment where you might think in years to come I need to update my CV and my portfolio.
Speaker 1:And oh my God, what did I do? And I haven't even dusted off my CV for years. So what have I done, let alone put together a portfolio at that point. So somebody said to me about you know what just always be mindful of that, because then you can update it as you go and add in more details because you've just finished something, instead of having that moment 10 years later be like I really can't showcase myself very well now because I can't remember what I was working on 10 years ago. You must see a real mix of things that are just sort of flung together. In the moment where somebody's just had a moment and decided they're going to go for a job and they're like, yeah, this is kind of what I do, you can tell when someone's really made an effort with their CV and their portfolio.
Speaker 3:I think I think this is actually a great idea, and there is something that I call for myself, a brag sheet. So this is just a document that I've created for myself where I record, whether it's for my we call it the grow wise when we, you know, get our annual evaluations for performance. So, whether it's for my performance evaluation or on the longterm, I record things that I'm proud of or things that have not gone well. But I've gone through that obstacle, I've jumped through it and I've been successful and coming out of the other end, I record these things and whenever I need it whether it is for a performance conversation or to just redo my CV, which obviously I have not touched in three and a half years so there's probably a lot of things that I could put in there. It is going to be super, super handy and you can always weed out the things you don't need or you can always, you know, think about how you're going to reorganize it. But it's definitely.
Speaker 3:I think it's a great thing to have some kind of document. It could be a piece of paper if that is something that you enjoy, but I think an online document is probably a bit more weatherproof. It's nice to have this and then you can always reference it. And also, I think this is a great way to battle your imposter syndrome. So whenever you feel you're failing, you're not doing right, nothing is working, you just look at this. I do this all the time. When I feel like I'm not doing good enough, I look at the sheet and I tell myself, sophia, this is what you have done. This is proof that you're able to get the job done and it actually helps quite a lot. So it helps you put things into perspective.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's such a good tip yes, not even when you're trying to get a job and you're trying to move to your next position. Just as a reminder tip yes, not even when you're trying to get a job and you're trying to move to your next position. Just as a reminder sometimes of you're right, you do forget the, the things that you have done and the things that you have achieved when you're you're not feeling your best or something is not going quite right, quite right at work. Um, you definitely having something there that you can just refer to and think you know what I did do really well, um, in you know my last position, for instance, or something that, a project that you worked on that you were really proud of. Um, that's a really, really good tip. Um, I love the fact you have a bragging sheet. That is brilliant, brilliant advice.
Speaker 1:Um, lila, you um touched upon networking a little bit earlier. Um, I want to touch back into that, though, about um, what role do networking and community engagement play in shaping one's personal brand within the tech community, and how can professionals effectively leverage these opportunities? I suppose, um, what I wanted to touch upon there is kind of opportunities. I suppose, um, what I wanted to touch upon. There is kind of networking. Obviously we said it's so, so important. Um, I suppose it's also what what people are saying about you as well. Isn't it like if they've met you and then you hear an opportunity, and then you somebody immediately thinks of you because they've met you and they know your personal brand, and they go? I know somebody that's really good at that particular thing. That's kind of usually how you know word of mouth works yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:And I think, um, I think that's why it's so important to almost like, build your brand at home before you go abroad. And I think what I mean by that is it's the people you work with in the day-to-day who will be almost like your first advocates or your first line, who will promote you outside of you, promoting yourself. And I think that's why they say you know, referrals are so sticky, whether it be a referral to a product or referral for a person, and it's because there's that trust element that has been built. So I'd say it's very much built first. You know, at home, within your own, the company you work for, so people will advocate for you across or when they move on, maybe they'll take them with you or vice versa. So that does actually happen a lot more frequently than I think we assume. Actually, I'd say most of my jobs have been that, believe it or not, rather than me trying to really hit the pavement that I did in my early twenties. But I'd say, yeah, networking is hugely important. A from the people you meet, maybe you actually also want to attract them to your company, your team, so it goes both ways.
Speaker 2:Giving talks is so painful because it is so nerve wr, um, but it is also one of the best ways to um build your brand. I volunteered with movement and product for um almost two years, um, and that was a fantastic opportunity. I literally got in. I think my first volunteering role there was just being at the door, um, and welcoming people and then kind of slowly trickling in um giving talks for wise is also terrifying, but a great way to build your brand because it's you know, you have an audience of thousands. So it's a fantastic opportunity as well. And I think, slowly and surely, as you start embedding yourself, you also start discovering these like underground networks, which is probably the coolest thing ever coming out of a PM's mouth, because we don't have a lot of cool things.
Speaker 2:What are these underground networks? They're basically just WhatsApp groups. There's a couple, definitely in London. I know there's some in New York, but essentially there are these groups with a bunch of PMs and we'll ask each other questions. Also, a ton of job opportunities go through there. Sometimes there's some minor vetting they'll do like pub meetups, but it's also a great opportunity and I actually that's how I got my last job is actually through one of these WhatsApp groups. So things do come in very different circles and different spheres. But I say, your first fear in terms of really leveling up is, you know, making sure the people you work with would be proud to refer you. And then, you know, going wider and meeting new people, and that's how you slowly, slowly, get more advocates on your side. So when the question does come up of, oh, who should we look for for this role, they don't even have to post the advert. It's like okay, cool, we know this, this is our, this is our person.
Speaker 1:Yes, I found as well that that is as you go through your career. That is. It's fantastic if somebody thinks of you because you built your personal brand around you're really good in that area but also as you start to become more of a manager and you start leading a team, that's really good for cherry picking people that you have previously worked with that you would love back on your team, and that, because you know that person's personal brand, you know what they're good at and you can go back to them and say you know, would you like to come and work for us? You you absolutely right and you touched upon it about attracting people to your own company.
Speaker 1:Um, just knowing people with really strong personal brands, that will add to your team as well. Um is is so so important to to think um for people to have that thought about you, but also bringing in great people to to the team. Um, and you're right, it's so much easier sometimes than going out and recruiting, uh, somebody and not knowing who they are or what they're going to bring to a team. Some of that does involve, though, doing really scary things, as you said, like public speaking. So lots of people building a personal brand that way, coming out of your comfort zone a little bit more, but so so much easier for people to grasp what you're about and who you are, um, when you are doing public speaking.
Speaker 2:Um, but it's not for the faint-hearted, I'll say I think also one of the nicest things this is um. It's also for some reason, I think also when you do give talks, people are actually more um, willing to approach you not necessarily just for a pure job perspective, but it could be anything. And it also makes everything easier and more familiar and even though sometimes you know you are on a stage, there's that sense of it's more friendly. It's like you just break down the barriers, and I think that's like one of the biggest leaps to make in terms of networking is it just makes people feel at ease with you and then they can come up and talk to you and the spotlight is less on them, um, and that sounds, and so it's much, uh, much nicer definitely.
Speaker 1:Um, ladies, we're almost out of time and I wanted to throw one last question out to the floor. Um, what are some practical tips or actionable steps that listeners can take away from this discussion today to start enhancing their own personal brand within the tech sector? Good question.
Speaker 2:I feel like I have so much to say on this topic so you might have to cut me off, but in one sentence I'd say throw yourself in the deep end. That's the biggest takeaway Be gritty. I think women are naturally very gritty, so I think we're. You know we're definitely on the right mark there. Take yourself to events If you're uncomfortable. Bring a friend. Message people on LinkedIn, ask them out for a coffee. It's, you know, a fantastic opportunity. Look at you know a fantastic opportunity, um. Look at you know, companies on glass door. You're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you, um, and I really, really mean that, um. But above all, prioritize who your manager is going to be, I think. Prioritize growth and prioritize learning, especially if you're just getting into the the.
Speaker 1:Yes, brilliant advice and especially prioritising learning is something that sometimes we forget to do, especially when you get in your day to day and you forget to actually try something new and move forward. For when you do want to move on to your next role, that you haven't added perhaps to any any learning time, but just prioritizing lots of different things to add to that personal brand can really help you if you do ever want to move companies or even move up and be promoted not necessarily leave a company. We work with a wonderful company who said most of their employees I talk to they don't leave, they just move around to different departments and they ask different departments. They just move around to different departments and they ask different departments how they can get over to try something new in a different department because they would rather not leave the company. But again, that's building on personal brand and the people in that team know of that person and whether or not they think they'd be a good fit. So, yeah, definitely prioritizing sales, prioritizing learning.
Speaker 2:It's great advice. It'll pay dividends um, and I mean, yeah, it will really really pay dividends later, so definitely prioritize that I I fully agree as well, and it will also help you build your portfolio.
Speaker 3:so one one of the actionable step that I would highlight is is getting your portfolio ready and continue to develop it and just making sure that you're promoting yourself with the right content on the right channels. And as just a final thought, I would like to just turn back to staying true to yourself and your values and what you represent as a person. Nothing really matters as much as this, in my opinion. As long as you're bringing your true self to the table, you will be valued at networking events, you will be valued at job interviews and you will be the person that people will think of when a new opportunity arises yes, brilliant advice, definitely, and stand true to yourself as well when you have an interview.
Speaker 1:Those values don't align with you. You know thinking maybe this opportunity isn't for me, it doesn't align with my personal brand and my values. But it does help when a company is very transparent about their values as well, which WISE does seem to be very transparent about their values. What's important, what to expect about, um, their values what's important, what to expect, um, and people really, uh, value that as well when they're going for an interview and they just know what they're going to get.
Speaker 3:So absolutely very much and and? Uh, so just to reflect on this, um, I've mentioned previously that advice um, whether it's so, we own our work, whether it's a successful project or whether it's a mistake, and I think that applies to an interview setting as well. I think one of the main things that I appreciate very much about a person I'm speaking to is when they're able to describe something to me that they failed at, or if I asked them a question that they don't have an answer to, but they do still attempt to try to describe their thought process or try to bring in a similar challenge they have solved and learned from. I think those are all really really great indicators on whether you can be successful at a job and you're ready to take responsibility. Uh, roll up your sleeves and get things done. So, uh, yeah, you don't have to know anything. You don't have to know everything, but find the tiny bits and pieces that will make you relevant yes, um, you're right.
Speaker 1:That responsibility of of saying you know what, something went wrong and this is how we did it, I completely agree. I I do not like it when I hear people saying things like something really went wrong and this is how we did it. I completely agree. I do not like it when I hear people saying things like something really went wrong. But you know, at the last company I worked at, it was the management team. I never have really had it.
Speaker 1:We have some people we've had people interview and as soon as that person has said something like I've never had a good manager and and then I look at them and I think perhaps that's you then if you've never had a good manager and and I look at them and I think perhaps that's you, then if you've never had a good manager or there's something about you that you kind of keep blaming. You know things that have happened. You're blaming other people, but you're right. If you just step forward and say this went wrong, this is how we tackled it, this is how we're not going to do it again, this is how we're going to push forward, then you're right. That's such a a better person to interview a more well-rounded, humble person that you're going to be thinking something went wrong, but you know they, they can tackle anything.
Speaker 1:Um, leila, especially if you're a startup, you have to be that type of person that can just you know what things went wrong, but we have to move fast and we have to pick ourselves up and try something else. Um so you know what things went wrong, but we have to move fast and we have to pick ourselves up and try something else. Um so you know that is a very fast-paced environment in a startup no, I definitely.
Speaker 2:Second that, I think it's. You know, we all share in our failures. We all share in the success, um. And the second someone talks about you know one win, it's. It's probably not not real um, but no, I definitely like me, ladies, we're already out of time.
Speaker 1:I could keep talking to you about personal brand all afternoon because it is such an important topic and for our community. So thank you so much to both of you for coming on here today. It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you, and so thank you so much for joining us today. On Spilling the Tea amazing, no, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:This is great, um. I Spilling the Tea Amazing now. Thank you so much. This is great, um. I'm sure, uh, for Zephia it's the same, but if people have any questions or want to ping us, like, please, feel free to. Um. That's, yeah, why we're here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely so. Thank you so much, uh as well, for for having us here. This has been a blast, this has been a really great experience, and if anyone ever wants to connect with us, we can. They can find us on linkedin. I do not use facebook too much, but I'm on facebook as well, but only on linkedin, or even just with our wise emails.
Speaker 1:We're happy to support anyone definitely our ladies would absolutely love that. We are a collaborative community and we know that we can't all do it without each other, so we will include some contact details as well in the below for this podcast. So thank you, ladies, for also volunteering to connect and help some of our community as well. I know they're going to absolutely love that. So thank you so much, ladies, it's been a pleasure and to everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
