SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Empowering women in tech: Navigating careers and growth
In this episode, join us as we delve into the dynamic world of female tech engineers. Tania Zagorskaia, Engineering Manager at Bloom & Wild, shares an insight into her day-to-day experiences in the tech industry, offering a glimpse into the challenges and triumphs of navigating this male-dominated field. From breaking stereotypes to embracing her journey into tech, she provides valuable perspectives on carving out a space in the tech world.
Moreover, we explore her passion for supporting engineers with their career growth, discussing strategies, resources, and the importance of mentorship. Tune in to gain inspiration and practical advice for thriving in the ever-evolving landscape of technology.
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Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing empowering women in tech, navigating careers and growth. I've got the wonderful Tanya, who is an Engineering Manager at Bloomin' Wild, with me today and she's going to share her insights into her day-to-day experiences in the tech industry and she's going to offer a glimpse into the challenges and triumphs of navigating this male-dominated field. Welcome, tania, lovely to have you on here.
Speaker 2:Hi, thanks a lot for having me here. I'm very happy to start this.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Thank you for coming on and agreeing to share your day and what it's like to work in a tech position at Blooming Wild. We'd love to kick off with a little bit about you, if that's okay. A little bit about your journey into tech and how you got there, what you do at Bloom and Wild and what sparked your interest in the first place. Yep sure.
Speaker 2:So currently I'm working at Bloom and Wild as an engineering manager, and I joined this company only three months ago. Before that I was working for a long time at another company. It's called Paddle. I started there as a senior engineer senior software engineer but then was promoted to engineering manager. But how it all started it was a long, long time ago.
Speaker 2:When I was still in school, I was lucky to have an opportunity to learn some basics of working with computers. It was more than 25 years ago, so it was rare at that time. So in the beginning it was very simple. I learned some basics about drawing and painting, for example, or creating spreadsheets. But later, when I was around 15 or something, we started to learn some simple algorithms using Pascal. Probably not everyone even knows what is it now, but it was used some time ago.
Speaker 2:I also loved maths, so when it was a time to choose university, I chose the one where I can learn more about maths and working with computers. And during my study at university I realized I love web development and my first job was actually about creating websites. That's how I started in tech and I should admit, in the beginning I was not great at all. It was a long time ago and I went through a long journey to where I'm now, but it's definitely 100% worth it. So what initially sparked my interest? I would say it was my teacher at school, and I probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't another teacher.
Speaker 1:I was going to say you kind of leaned towards it. I was hoping you was going to say it was a teacher at school because it sparked your interest at quite a young age, Because you said you liked maths as well.
Speaker 2:Was it a maths teacher or was it a computer science based teacher, or both? Yeah, yeah, it was both. Initially she was a maths teacher, but she also inspired us to to work with computers as well incredible, that's.
Speaker 1:That's really good to hear. When ladies say that they enjoyed their subject at school. Um, we don't always hear it, but the ladies make it through to university and then into the workplace. Can I ask you quick, what was your experience like at university? Was that very male-dominated, or had that kind of evened out a little bit by the time you got to university? And then, I suppose, what was that leap like in your work as well?
Speaker 2:I would say so. It was male dominated. I would say maybe 70% of people in my group was males, but we also have quite a few females.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and then when you came into the tech industry, did you find it was still quite male dominated, or did that even out a little bit when you went into work?
Speaker 2:I can give an example of a company I worked for some time and I was the only female there in the whole engineering and the engineering was around 50 people maybe. Wow, at that time it was very male dominated. Now it's much, much better.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, gosh, yeah, that is very male dominated. Now it's much, much better. Yes, yeah, gosh, yeah, that is very male dominated. Um, so now you're a blooming wild. Um, can you? And and it's lovely as well and, um, it's.
Speaker 1:It's nice to hear when you say that it was a struggle and that you, you know what to to get to your level of expertise now it it took a while and that you stuck at it and that you, you know what to to get to your level of expertise now it it took a while and that you stuck at it and that you become, you know, just really good at your job. And that's something that our ladies love to hear, especially when they're transitioning, for instance, from one industry into another and they're transitioning into tech for the first time that you know what it does take time, and don't worry that when you do get started that you might not have all the skills that are necessary, but stick at it and keep going. And here you are at BloomWild all those years later, and I bet you're very pleased that you stuck at it and didn't leave the tech industry.
Speaker 2:So I'm very, very pleased to be here and that I never gave up on this path In the beginning. It was very pleased to to be here and that I never gave up on this path. In the beginning, it was very difficult, to be honest, um, when I realized that what I studied in the university is not actually the same that actual business needs, it was very difficult, um, and while I was searching for my first job, I probably failed failed, I don't know, maybe 50 interviews, uh, before I realized what, uh, the actual business wants, what I need to learn to get this job. So, uh, yeah, it was difficult in the beginning, uh, but then, one job after another, I learned more and more, and it's a help from different people outside me. For example, my husband inspired me a lot in this path. He taught me a lot, I'd say, and also different managers, different other engineers that were around me.
Speaker 1:They helped me, yeah, quite significantly yeah, and it sounds like it was a learning curve, um, not not just your technical skills, but becoming more resilient and finding as well what you wanted to do and what worked for you, perhaps what didn't work for you as well. Um, so, yeah, definite, definite journey that you have been on interesting journey as a tech engineer. What are some of the day-to-day challenges that you face?
Speaker 2:um. So currently I'm not an engineer, I'm an engineering manager, and it's quite different from being an engineer, but I would say some things stay in common though. Um. One of the great challenges, um, I faced quite a lot of time is balancing between creating shiny new things, like new services, trying new technologies, and on the other side, it's dealing with the tech depth. I hardly know engineers who enjoy fixing bugs or cleaning things, cleaning up things and I'm also not one of them. I find it boring and just not inspiring.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, not dealing with tech theft can lead to big and sometimes even huge issues. I can give one example of not dealing and what consequences were after that. So one time we had a framework that needs to be updated, needed to be updated, and it was always deprioritized. So there were other product features that need to be done and in the end, after some time, we saw that the version we are currently used it's not supported anymore. So we just had to do the upgrade and it took us six months and a lot of effort to do this. So the company spent a lot of time and a lot of money on this, and if it would be done earlier, it would save all this money and all this time. So this is every engineering manager and even engineer. They need to understand the importance of this and find time with dealing with this. So my approach is to spend about 20% of the time it's dedicated to fixing bugs or doing some cleanup. So yeah, that's one of the challenges.
Speaker 1:You mentioned a little bit previously about people that had supported you along the way and that you are as well. You're quite passionate about supporting engineers with their career growth. Can you share some strategies or tips for advancing one's career in tech? Do you have any advice or strategies and tips for that?
Speaker 2:So this is probably the main challenge on the manager side of my job. Every engineer is a is different. Everyone has their own goals, temperament and challenges, and helping and encouraging them to grow in their role is not an easy thing to do. So I guess I can talk about my main tip that I noticed is missing for many engineers I've worked with. It's quite simple. It's just an understanding that growing to the next role doesn't happen in a moment. It's usually quite a long process. So the very important part of it is a growth framework provided by the company Hopefully a lot of companies now provide this and it supports engineers on their career growth, and engineer and their manager should follow it, set goals and check in regularly. Also very important that the initiative should go from engineers, not from the manager itself, because nobody knows better than engineers what their own expectation on this and what are their goals.
Speaker 2:One example I can give, which is not rare, I made it up, but let's say we have a middle engineer who called Tom that's an imaginary person, it doesn't exist who's well settled in the company, working well. He's in his role for some time now and he's important for the team. He delivers the tickets on time and has an opinion on technical discussions, so he's a very good engineer. At some point he might start thinking that he's doing really well and he is ready to be promoted to the senior role. But previously he never talked to his manager about this and they didn't follow the growth framework. So it's not something that is ready from both sides from the manager's side and from the engineer's side.
Speaker 2:Despite he may actually be close to the promotion this time, he should go the whole way of working on the growth framework with the manager. It means bringing all the examples of his progress, setting some goals because something could miss during the last time at the company, and discussing initiatives with the manager. What should happen instead? Regular discussion with the manager straight after he joined or was promoted from the junior role, for example. In this case, by this time Tom is actually ready for promotion. He already has all the examples, all the proofs that he's doing at the level of senior engineer and the promotion would be smooth and simple, but instead they need to spend another six months would be smooth and simple, but instead they need to spend another six months, for example, on giving these examples. So I would encourage every engineer to have regular check-ins with their manager and document progress in their framework.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely you speaking, and I was thinking about the younger generation today, a lot of young people. They will join a company and then kind of expect that next role to almost just be there and maybe even not quite understand what that next role is or how to get there, but they're already thinking career progression and they're almost as well, almost expecting their employer to point them in the direction of their next role, whereas actually they're, as you said, that you know what. It takes a while and you have to work for a process and that process is in place. Um for you to. That framework is there for you to work through. Then, so much easier than a young person feeling like, um, you know, they might want to go elsewhere because they didn't get what they wanted, they couldn't see where their next role was going to be and actually that young person went to another company and then you could lose. You know, really, really good talent, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly exactly. In the early days, when you're still a junior engineer, it may be a bit easier because you have a lot of mentorship or support from the manager and they can guide you to the next role or the areas of development. But it's quite different from senior roles, especially senior, like staff and principal, where the initiative should go from engineer not from the manager, because it's a very independent role and very senior role.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and being at a company that allows that as well is so, so important. Some companies you do, you get in, you kind of disappear into day to day and that's it, and they're not really thinking about you, your next role or how to retain you, because we said you, you might go, whether or not you're a young person or somebody that's been in tech for a while. If that company isn't helping to set some kind of a framework and to help you with your own career development, then you might be thinking, actually this isn't for me and I'll go elsewhere. Um, it seems like good companies try really hard to keep good talent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly I should mention that managers they should support engineers and encourage them to grow in some direction, but at the same time, managers have a lot of responsibilities, so sometimes they just don't have enough time to think about every goal for the engineers and, yeah, sometimes it can be missed.
Speaker 1:So it's important that engineers do initiatives yeah, yeah, and on that note as well, about um career development uh, how important do you think mentorship is for career development in the tech field and have you had any significant uh mentors throughout your own journey?
Speaker 2:I believe that mentorship can become a key part in career development. It's like a fresh look from the outside on what you're doing and what you're doing well and what's missing. Personally, I never had a mentor, but when I was still an engineer and I already had a goal to become an engineering manager, I had great support from my last manager. So during my time at my previous company, I had a chance to work with at least five different managers and I can tell the difference between them. Only one manager played a significant role in my development and I'm forever grateful for this to him. He wasn't actually my mentor, but I learned a lot and he's my example of how to help engineers to move towards their goals. And in the current company, I can say that I encourage people to find a mentor to get this help of a fresh look from outside.
Speaker 1:Definitely. A lot of our ladies in our community say it's very hard to find a mentor sometimes. Or how do you approach somebody and somebody that you trust, whether that's somebody internally in the company that you work at or externally from your wider network? But it's quite hard, isn't it? To um, to it's to ask somebody to be a formal mentor. At least you know you can, like you said, if those people were not necessarily your mentors but just brilliant resources to tap into and help you along the way, and that perhaps some. Sometimes we call things mentors and mentorship programs, but it's. It doesn't always have to be that formal, does it.
Speaker 2:I totally agree with this. At some point I tried to find a mentor when I was an engineer, on the way to engineering manager, and I approached different people but I didn't get any response. So I didn't have a formal mentorship. But yeah, I can say it's a missing thing in the community, especially on the higher your role is, the harder to get a mentor for you.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, because it's also the um, the importance and the topic of sponsorship. Whereas a mentor is something that sounds a bit more formal, whereas actually a sponsor it's just somebody that is there that says the things that you need to be said about you when you're not in that room and I've had some brilliant sponsors and male sponsors as well that when I have not been in that room and my name needs to be brought up for some reason, to be put forward for something or to be recommended for a project, just having male sponsors in the room or female sponsors is so, so important, and I actually think sometimes that is far more important than finding a mentor, because that person will just name drop you at exactly the right time. It sounds like that's something as well that you kind of found in those relationships that you mentioned in those managers just having somebody that's just a really good advocate for you at that time. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally agree, and I also can mention that when I was an engineer, I was asked to be a mentor for some junior engineer and from my point of view, I didn't do a lot. I just listened to to this person uh, what were her goals and, um, what projects she wants to work on and I gave some advices, um, and this led to some great initiatives from her side. She did everything herself and she was eventually promoted to the middle level role. So I guess I did nothing, but it encouraged her to action.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, even that is not something that is very formal. Again, you listened and you helped her in a different way to what you would think a formal mentoring program is. I think a lot of people worry as well that if somebody does reach out to you to be a mentor, it's going to take up a lot of your time and a lot of your resources, and actually it's not. You know, you inspired that young lady to to move to her next position, um, without it being like a formal meetup and a program that you had to work through.
Speaker 2:Um yes it, it doesn't take a lot of time, it can be just one hour, one once a month, and it's not a lot, and but at the same time it helps people to grow definitely, yes, I definitely agree um that we you need um different, different places that you can draw upon expertise um, which moves me on to my next question.
Speaker 1:I wanted to ask you about resources and communities, and that you need a good mix of mentors and everything else that comes into it and a good network. So what are some resources or communities that aspiring or current female tech engineers can tap into for support and networking? Is there anything that you really love to tap into?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the first one is probably Chicken Code, because I know it a lot. I already participated in some initiatives for this and I can say that what you're doing is great and it's a very important job and your community is brilliant. I also know about Mother's Board community, which is specifically about females with kids. As I'm a mother myself, I know how many challenges new mothers are going through when they are returning to work after quite a significant leave. This is actually another topic I'm very passionate about, because building awareness of what it means to be a parent in a workplace it's not something that happened in each company and I would say it started quite recently. Other sources. I would say I'm not a member of any other communities, but what inspires me is just attending different meetups or conferences where females present some topics. It really encouraged me to believe that I can do more and I can do better myself.
Speaker 1:Yes, and just sharing those stories. You're so, so right to hear the ups and downs as well, and we always say that on this podcast, that it's not just sharing the good stories, it's about sharing the things that we wish we could have done better, how we can change things for the future, and just to hear that other people are feeling the same way that we're feeling. Or when we were starting out, we had all of those same concerns that everybody else has had. The topic of motherhood, um, and juggling a, a flexible work-life balance as well, um, which we've had lots of ladies on here kind of share, share what that is like, and and kind of wish that you know somebody had said to them.
Speaker 1:You know, when they started, just don't be so hard on yourself. You know it's okay, you know you will get there, but the more you hear that, uh, the the better it is. Um, at curiosity, I know you've only been at bloom and wild three months, but how are you finding that at bloom and wild? I take it they are, um, a flexible company and you know, being a parent and juggling all of that is um, it's kind of encouraged at bloom, yeah it's definitely something that is encouraged in the company.
Speaker 2:I know quite a few parents inside the company and, as a parent myself, I can feel that the company supports flexibility. We have only co-hours between 10 and 4, for example, so we actually can drop off and pick up kids whenever we need to, and it's also OK to attend appointments. For example, you don, we need to, and it's also okay to attend appointments. For example, you don't need to book your holiday for this, you can have a separate hospital appointment and we have time off to look after dependents. It's a really great support. I really appreciate it. Like comparing to one of the companies I worked for they expected me to work, work, as uh, I was before before um becoming a parent, so I had to took my my holiday time off to look after sick kids, which is definitely not a holiday. Wow, yes, many similar examples, uh, but in this company I feel secure, let's say, and um, yeah, I'm really grateful for this.
Speaker 1:Yes, and and what did you do? You left and you went elsewhere. You know it's kind of and a lot of parents that come on this podcast who say, when you land yourself at a company that is very supportive, you become a very in a very loyal employee as well, because you'll want to stay and that encourages you. That flexibility, or even having those core hours and that leeway between you know, doing drop-offs and pick-ups, would definitely encourage you to stay as an employee and so they can retain you as good talent. Um, but those tiny little things they make such such a difference to, um, keeping, keeping good talent on their teams. Um, as you're a perfect example somebody that just left a company that was making you take a holiday for a sick child how insane, um.
Speaker 1:I have one last question. Um, we are almost out of time and I could keep talking to you for another hour on this topic, but I would love to know what advice you have for other women who are considering a career in tech. Is there something you wish you had been told before you started?
Speaker 2:I'd say. My advice is very simple Just give it a go. There is nothing that women can't do, that man can, and at least not in tech. It's not about strength or endurance you can do better and you will do better yes, definitely I.
Speaker 1:I mean you're you're a perfect example of somebody that came through school wanting to do tech and then, um, didn't transition from from a different career. I take it that you, you, you don't have any regrets for that and that you, just you're so pleased that you stayed in tech and stuck at it and that you by the sounds of it, from your advice there as well that you can, just you know you can do it, even though it's a male-dominated field, and to just just keep at it. Um, I suppose, what about the ladies that are transitioning? Do you work with a lot of ladies that have transitioned from different industries, and are some of your team members, kind of you know, quite new to tech?
Speaker 2:I worked with a couple of ladies at a previous company who just started to work in tech and they were great engineers. Even they were associate and in the beginning they needed a lot of support. Their journey was quite smooth because they had this support of more senior engineers one example is me, but we had a full team of other engineers and they had this support from many people and I believe their manager also had a great job on leading them towards their kind of growth. So when it was time for them to progress to the next role, it was quite smooth and easy and, yeah, I'm just really happy to see those people progressing in their career, in their journey, and currently I think both of them are already mid-engineers and it was only, if I remember correct, it's maybe four or five years. It's a great journey.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, okay, yeah, they there are. There's such a mixture in the tech industry of ladies like yourself who, um, knew what they wanted to do and and they've done it since school, and those ladies that are transitioning into the tech sector from different careers as well, um, and you're so, so, right with that, that passionate for supporting other engineers and helping them through and helping those ladies and other generations as well that are coming through, because it just means as well that those ladies feel like they want to stay in the tech sector and they don't want to leave and they want to get on. And even if they do move to another company, at least you know we're retaining them within the tech sector as a whole, rather than getting to a point in their career where they felt like that was too much of a challenge or that was far too male dominated and there was too many challenges for me. But when you know ladies are helping other ladies to move on and that definitely helps with retaining good talent in the tech sector, it's just better for everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tech industry is gives so many opportunities, I would say, for people, and when I was young I didn't appreciate it um a lot. But now I'm older, when I have kids, I really appreciate, appreciate that I can work remotely, that I can pick up kids, that I can have this flexible time. Um, it's really, really great comparing to some industries, like banking maybe, where they have strict hours and they need to go to the office like from nine till six. Yeah, tech industry is great.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly. Sometimes we said on here it's one of the best kept secrets that people don't know that about the tech industry, and more people should know exactly the words that just come out of your mouth. There we try and spread the word that she can code um via this podcast and by talking to people like you that are living and breathing it, um. So thank you so much, tanya, for coming on here. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you and hearing all about your story, so thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Thanks a lot for inviting me. It was a great time to spend with you thank you for everybody listening, as always.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
