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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Trailblazing the boardroom: Getting a seat at the table
In this episode of Spilling the T, we delve into the dynamic journeys of Gill Mahon, Chief People & Places Officer, and Fiona Hood, Head of Tech Presales, both trailblazers at Totalmobile. Join us as we explore their experiences, challenges, and triumphs in navigating the corporate world, breaking barriers, and securing their place in the boardroom.
This is an inspiring conversation on empowerment, leadership, and the relentless pursuit of success in tech. Tune in to discover how these remarkable women are trailblazing their way to the top and paving the path for future generations of women in the boardroom.
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Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in Again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing trailblazing the boardroom, getting a seat at the table. I've got two amazing ladies from Total Mobile with me today. I've got Jill and Fiona and they're going to talk through their experiences, challenges and triumphs in navigating the corporate world, breaking barriers and securing their place in the boardroom. Welcome ladies. Thank you so much in the boardroom. Welcome ladies. Thank you so much for joining me this morning. Thanks, kayleigh. Hi, thank you, it's a pleasure to have you on. Can we kick off with a little bit of background about both of you, how you got into tech and what you do at Total Mobile? Please, jill, should we start with?
Speaker 3:you. Yeah, I'm Jill Mahan. I am the Chief People and Places Officer at Total Mobile, which means that I look after human resources but also look after our property, real estate and our sort of working practices, if you like. Journey into sort of tech.
Speaker 3:My first foray into tech was back in around 2005, actually when I joined a software company first of all, and I went in on a contract, kayleigh, so it was an interesting start. I was only supposed to be there for nine months and ended up staying five years, and during that five-year period, oh my God, I learned a lot. So I went in as a HR gen, ended up setting up the EMEA recruiting team. I looked after Ireland, italy, spain, portugal from a HR perspective and then also took on L&D and HR business partnering in that business. So it was a baptism of fire and an amazing opportunity. But that's you know. Having had started in a career in recruitment, that was just an awesome opportunity for me to really learn more about tech businesses and lead me, I suppose, to where I was able to do the job that I have today in Total Mobile.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Did you ever envision that you would be in the tech sector when you were thinking about your career when you were younger? That just kind of. Now you look at it and think, didn't?
Speaker 3:know I was outside looking in, just thought this looks really really interesting, right, because there's the opportunity to be creative, fast moving, um, and and that really, really appeals to me. But most of my earlier career had been in recruitment, so I was always on the outside looking in, if you like, um. But yeah, I mean I was really, really delighted when I got that opportunity, um, and have not strayed ever since really from that path, so it's been great yeah, and Fiona yourself what about you?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I started out a degree in maths and computing at University of Ulster, which was a real conversation killer at the time because it was maths, statistics, computing quite a dull subject. I had no idea as to what role I wanted to do, nor what the opportunities were actually. So I initially started out working part-time in Curry's as a branch administrator, but in their in their IT section, um, and eventually applied for a job actually in Total Mobile. So I'm 25 years in the business, 26 years. This year um applied for a job that I thought I had no chance of actually getting hated it for the first six months and actually loved it after that. So I'm now in a role where I lead the pre-sales team in Total Mobile. So we work with sales teams, partners and provide solutions or find, find solutions that essentially will help solve pain for our customers in a job that I really love and it's it's been a journey. Ever since I've had about three or four different roles within the company, but I am one of those sad people who loves what I do.
Speaker 1:Yes, incredible. And yes, to be at a company that long, you know. I'm wondering, though. You went straight into maths and computing. Yeah, what was that like for you? Were you the only female? What was it like?
Speaker 2:No, no, it was actually oddly, um, it was a pretty even split in the class at the time, which I suppose was quite unusual, um, but we had some, yeah, yeah, pretty pretty even split, more or less, um, and I don't think I experienced anything that was probably male dominated until I moved into the workplace, really that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's usually ladies say actually I was, um, I, I was the only female, and then I didn't get to uni because I had a. I had a bad experience at school and I didn't want to go on a study any further, and then perhaps later in life, I fell into the tech industry.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, no, I was very lucky to have um. I went to an all-female school which I hated. Well, I loved it at the time, but you know we don't all love that all-female background, um, and they were always really encouraging. All of I did sciences and maths and all of my teachers were male, um, but always really fully encouraged all of us to to do whatever we were interested in and whatever we enjoyed and for me that was.
Speaker 3:It is cool, isn't it? I went to an all-female school as well, and I and I wonder if there's something in that that gives you that confidence. I don't know, but you know, maybe. I wonder if there's any studies being done on that. Actually, it'd be interesting to look into, wouldn't it yeah, especially in computing, and it's normally.
Speaker 1:You know, working in tech is very male dominated and you just you didn't see that. So when you reach the workforce then then you realized actually it's quite a dominated industry.
Speaker 1:On that topic, um, I wanted to ask you what are some of the challenges that you faced along the way, particularly as women in leadership roles? You mentioned a little bit about how you got in there and you didn't really see it as an issue when you, when you were studying, um but did. Did you face any challenges along the way when, once you got into the workforce and on your way up the ladder, um Jill? Should we start with you on that one?
Speaker 3:it's a really interesting question. So there's I think there's two sides to that question, almost Kayleigh which is one of the challenges of a woman working in tech from just you know, back at that role that I had in 2005, my first foray in, I found no challenge, I found no barrier. I found I could break down every door. Found no challenge. I found no barrier, I found I could break down every door, and I think it was because at that point in my life I was 100% dedicated to my career. The challenge that I've had later in life, once I've had children, is how do you find that balance between working at pace, progressing, realizing your personal and professional dreams, whilst also trying to find that balance at home to raise your children? So that's challenge number one.
Speaker 3:I think the other part of that question really relates to have there been any barriers in work, getting promoted or getting recognized in a very male dominated environment. And again, I think I've been really lucky, or just maybe not let it get in my way. I think I do have the imposter moments, especially when I first got into the boardroom, but I have a very open communication with my male colleagues and they all have those imposter moments too. So it's not something that's really really unusual, um, but it is something that we should recognize and get over um, because we actually deserve our place wherever we get to um. Working with fee actually is really interesting because I can I can say when I came into the company I'm here three years. I'm looking at somebody like Fiona, who's been here 25 years, who everybody looks up to and respects. She has so much knowledge, experience, expertise and that's wonderful that the currency that that gives you it should also give you that confidence to carry you through and not let those barriers get in your way.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's something that we all suffer with, but we shouldn't yes, definitely, and it is lovely to have those role models that you can look to as well, and we need that at all stages of of our careers.
Speaker 3:I have to say kayleeleigh, in Total Mobile we're really lucky. So 50% of our senior management team are female. Wow, that's quite unusual. Role models is so key for us. Who can people look up to um and recognize um and say, actually, that can also be me.
Speaker 1:I think it's so powerful for us yes, and it's that practicing by behavior as well as, as you were, you know, getting more and more female leaders on board. It kind of has that trickle effect throughout the whole thing. And, fiona, you've been um at your company for for coming up to 26 years, and it's interesting what jill just said about becoming a parent. And then that's a whole other challenge as well. Were you at total mobile when?
Speaker 1:when you've experienced, you know that and going on maternity leave and and being a company that long, it obviously sounds like you know they were doing something right and you stuck around for 26 years, whilst you had all of that that you were managing as well.
Speaker 3:And long wish you still stay. I hope so.
Speaker 2:Do you know? Oddly, I was just thinking about that overall journey when we were about to have this conversation, I had my son so he's 21 this year and the company I think I joined in 1998, and the company started in 1985. And I was the first person who fell pregnant and we had no maternity policy at the time. So myself and another colleague who was actually a really good mentor of mine as well at the time so myself and another colleague who was actually a really good mentor of mine as well at the time two of us fell pregnant doing the same job at the same time, and the company has developed a maternity policy as part of that, so they were very good about it when I returned.
Speaker 2:So at the time I think maternity leave was maybe six months at that stage I was desperate to get back to work because I just loved, loved what I did at that stage and obviously, um, we all welcomed that escape back to something other than looking after a child, and so I was very lucky in that when I did return, the company accommodated a slightly different role because I traveled quite a bit and when I returned to work, they accommodated probably I did more of a product and when I returned to work they accommodated. Probably I did more of a product facing role where I didn't have to travel quite as much. I got bored with that after a while, just because I enjoyed being out there with customers. So I then moved into, I suppose, the pre-sales role at the time. But I've had some really good female mentors as part of that journey as well, one of whom actually sits in my team still to this day and is also still with the company.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's nice as well when you're at the start of something, and I've been at a company where that happens and everybody goes there must be something in the water, because several women are becoming pregnant at the same time.
Speaker 3:And we have to come up with a maternity policy suddenly.
Speaker 1:But it's nice to be at the start of something and that when a company really does embrace, suddenly you know our employees are having families and how do we keep good talent? Have you experienced any other challenges along the way, fiona, as a woman in tech and as a woman in leadership?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't necessarily call them challenges, probably just situations that you need to navigate. We, predominantly at the time, sold into public sector and to field service and that essentially at the time meant going out on site visiting customers who were pretty much male dominated, you know, plumbers, joiners, that kind of thing. So I was I'm a bit of a tomboy, so I was never really, you know, worried about being in a male environment. I actually enjoyed it and kind of enjoyed the banter at the time. It's not really something that ever held me back.
Speaker 1:I don't think it only encouraged me all the more actually just to to show that the knowledge that I had was equal, equivalent or more to those folks and that and that what we were doing for those customers was actually helping change and improve the way they work yes, definitely, and I see that that leads me on because I wanted to talk to you about all the advantages of that and having a mixed workplace and actually that you know that could be an advantage, that you can show your way of doing things and that your company wants you to be. Sometimes feminine is seen as a negative thing in leadership, and you know your company wants you to be feminine and they want you to show all of the brilliant traits that you bring as a female and that's why they hired you sometimes. So I wanted to talk a little bit about how you approach building and fostering a diverse and inclusive work culture. Jill, shall we start with you on the people side of things there. How does Total Mobile approach that building a a diverse and inclusive workplace?
Speaker 3:Well, our culture and Fiona will attest to this has always been one of one of being very welcoming. It's funny, even to this day, when I talk to new hires, they, they say the one or two things that they always say about the company is oh my god, everybody's so nice here, they're so welcoming, they can't help you enough. It's just mad. You know, we're getting to a certain size of company and yet it still feels like an environment where everybody feels so supportive of one another. I suppose the challenge from a sort of HR perspective is how do we constantly keep this on the agenda, and that's by talking about it from a sort of HR perspective is how do we constantly keep this on the agenda? So, and that's by talking about it. So we have, you know, we, we as a team in HR, we constantly talk. We have a D&I specialist, so we look at how do we, how do we ensure that we are appealing to the largest group of people in the market that will identify? We talk about role models, but we'll identify with people in our business and go okay, there's people like me there, you know I should apply. And then also, when people come in, that they feel that they can bring them their whole selves to work and feel comfortable doing that, and we have a DEI forum that employees are involved in. We have an ESG forum that people are involved in.
Speaker 3:We have a women's networking group and we do regular events such as celebrating cultural events on the calendar. So the most recent two that I can think of, we did a celebration around Ramadan. We did one about Chinese New Year, educating people, and oftentimes you know the people presenting say let me, let me answer some of the most awkward questions that you would ever want to ask me about Ramadan, but wouldn't dare because you didn't want to offend me, and I love that. We're really, really open as a culture, um, and we're only going to be doing more of that. So it's encouraging people to talk. Keep it on the agenda, that's the main thing yes, I love that.
Speaker 1:And especially as you grow you you said that there, as as you become bigger as a company, a lot of companies that fizzles out and it's kind of, oh you know, when we were a startup, we had these great groups and everybody would talk and then actually, as you grow, you don't know most of the people in the company and it doesn't feel, um, very tight knit anymore and it's it's especially with people working from home. It's quite hard to foster that culture. So it's great that you're approaching it in stages as you grow.
Speaker 3:We do a lot of fun stuff as well, right, so we have a total mobile social teams group so people can exchange, have the banter, as Faye would say, on there. We do competitions, because we are mostly remote. How do we keep people connected? So we do a lot of competitions for charity. We do a lot of work out in the community. We do a lot of VTO days in teams, so there's a ton of stuff that goes on just to keep that connection going. But yeah, I just think it's such a a I would come back to saying it's such a welcoming place to be, um, and we we're always conscious of that, that we that we never lose that yeah, and Fiona, I'm sure you're going to echo that.
Speaker 1:as somebody that has been there over 25 years, have you seen that the, the culture just has really evolved, that you know that fostering that diverse and inclusive workplace, that's just kind of part of the company that's just evolved and grown as you grow?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I think a lot of that really has come from. Leading by example To Jill's point earlier, you know, all of our C-suite are approachable. We can rock up and have a conversation with them, you can connect with them on a personal level and I think the fact that our senior team are all open to doing that creates that kind of connectivity that employees feel that they can have, so they feel that they can bring their normal selves to work at the same time. But yeah, the culture has changed massively over the years to being a small company of you know.
Speaker 3:Northern.
Speaker 2:Ireland based, with not a terribly diverse workforce at the time, but over the period of time that I've certainly been here, that's changed massively and it's only it's only improved the interaction that people have had with each other and educated us all along the way.
Speaker 1:I suppose yeah, you just mentioned about bringing your truth of your authentic self to work, which I'm pleased you mentioned that because it's so, so important, especially in leadership.
Speaker 1:It's something that we talk about on this podcast quite a bit and a lot of the ladies on here say when they step into leadership for the first time, everybody expects you to know everything and that's the first fault they have and they think why did I have that fault? I don't know everything just because I'm a leader? And but also just being authentic, it's as if your team knows if you're not bringing your real self to work or you don't work in a workplace where you're allowed to be yourself, then your team, kind of they know that and they don't trust you, and that kind of trickles through to how they work day to day. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about you know, if you're in a workplace, for instance, that's very male dominated, how have you navigated that, those spaces, so you can still remain? You know your authentic self, but you've managed to earn the respect as leaders in your in your field as well. Have any of you experienced any challenges whilst working in a male dominated space once you became a leader, jill, should we?
Speaker 3:go to you. It's a really it's a difficult one. I think it's one that comes with experience and possibly age, which is, you know, probably a strange thing to say, because I'm sure there's lots of much more mature people than I am at a younger age. But I was a terrible manager and leader when I was younger and I probably wasn't given the benefit of the right training at the time, but that's a terrible excuse to use. I also probably wasn't comfortable enough in my own skin to lead authentically to your point. So, you know, certainly in the last couple of roles that I've been in, I have just been myself.
Speaker 3:I think there's a lot of you know, advice out there about what kind of leader you could be or manager you could be, but actually just being yourself and being consistent is one of the most important things that you can be as a leader, so that people know what to expect. There's that, there's that psychological safety, um, in somebody always being their consistent, true self as a, as a leader. I think and I hope that I lead with some empathy, so that I've seen a lot of stuff during my career. So when I and I've come up through the ranks, so when I look at my team. I've probably experienced the problems that they're experiencing and can sympathize and empathize with them and help them get through, and I really don't worry about how I am viewed as a leader anymore. I'm less self conscious about it, whereas in my younger years I would have been really worried about what people said and did. Now that doesn't mean, by the way, that things don't affect you as a leader, because I do think that people think that when you get to a certain level, you have this suit of armor on you and it's something again that I've discussed with my male colleagues that you know people will criticize you. People will sometimes say you know, quite insulting stuff to your face can assassinate your character without meaning to sometimes put in badly veiled jokes, and that still does affect you.
Speaker 3:It doesn't matter what position you're in, but it's important for people to understand that we are all just human beings doing a job at the end of the day as well, because it's a really tough. It's a really tough position to be in. You have to make a lot of decisions that are on your back that you know are not going to make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. So the ability to be okay with compromise is a massive thing, but I don't come back to your original question. Sorry, kayleigh. I don't feel like that changes for me being in a male-dominated environment or being in tech versus the type of leader I would have been anywhere else, and I think it's learning experience and the confidence to accept who you are is. You know, being self-aware is a massive part of that and I think being okay with that, being able to kind of go to sleep at night, being OK with who you are and the decisions you've made, is where you've got to get to.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and a lot of ladies as well, they say when they step into a leadership role. It's almost like if, when you did that when you were younger, you might have been comparing yourselves to the male leaders that you'd had previously, you might have been comparing yourselves to the male leaders that you'd had previously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of ladies. That's all they see in front of them At Total Mobile. You don't how nice that the ladies coming through can actually see other females in their roles and being authentic. And when you do, when you are given that opportunity, it's then much easier to be yourself or to take bits from different leaders that you see, rather than thinking I have to go in and be that aggressive.
Speaker 3:you know leader that everybody thinks that, and that's the thing do you have to act up to be very male in a leadership role? Absolutely not. I in in my previous software roles I worked with an incredible group of women, amazing leaders, who gave me the opportunities to learn to fail to do so much and um take risks. And they were amazing people. They they were in no way aggressive, they were encouraging, supportive, you know, and that just made me want to do more. If I come across somebody who's aggressive now, I find it really tiring and I probably wouldn't engage anymore. I probably shut down. So you can gain much more with that approach. I just I think I've had been so lucky to work with some incredible women, and there are some incredible women in total, mobile now too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Fiona, what about about yourself when you're navigating male-dominated spaces within leadership? We all see it as an interesting angle, because you're more on a sales side and sales is predominantly male and aggressive and direct within a male-dominated industry that is the tech industry. How have you found that? Because I've had a lady on here and she said to me she works in sales and she's called direct, whereas other men that work in sales are just, you know, they're just going for it, they're just hitting their targets. It's kind of when she wanted to move into leadership, she felt that she was looked at very differently yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think that that authenticity I think resonates with both men and women. You know it's not just a female thing In a sales environment. Yes, we do work with lots of very driven individuals, shall we say, and you know it's a tough job. We are backed by a private equity company who have high standards. I think we as a company have very high standards and we firmly believe in what we sell makes a difference to individuals, not not just. You know, at the moment we sell okay, and public sector and heavily male dominated environment, but equally we also sell into health and social care, um, and that's a very different, probably more female dominated environment. So I think we come across.
Speaker 2:There are times, yes, when I've probably had that imposter syndrome around the fact that should I stick up for my beliefs and I'm not direct sales. So I support the sales guys from a technical perspective, just trying to make sure that we keep them on the right path. Sales is challenging, but it's also enjoyable and I think we've we've certainly introduced a process in the past couple of years that's made a big difference, where we're all working together and we're all pulling together in the same direction. For this, you know, for for our own benefit and for the benefit of the company. Um, and I think that's that's made a massive difference. The gender thing doesn't really come into it at that stage. I don't believe at all really Well.
Speaker 1:I mean that's good to hear. That's not the case at all companies, but that's good to hear when you do find a good environment where that isn't a problem.
Speaker 2:that's usually the case, we have the benefit of some really great allies, I think, within the sales organization, who will step up and interject at a point in time if they feel that maybe you know, I've maybe spoken out and someone hasn't listened to us and they've maybe repeated someone. Maybe a male person has repeated something and it's very similar to, if not the same as, what I've said. Our male colleagues will jump in and almost pull people up on that and go well, that kind of reflects what Fiona's just said and they absolutely, I think, have our back at that stage.
Speaker 3:And we do have some very strong female leaders in the sales organization. So half of the leadership in the sales organization is female, kayleigh. So that is really important. And, um, yeah, as V said, we we've great allies in the business, from the CEO to you know, I just I'd like to, I'd like to say gender differences aren't a challenge. I don't think that's true for everyone's experience. I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I would like to say that we're one of the better environments in that regard and a bit more. Um, I hate to use the word woke, but I'm trying to think of something that's that's more relevant than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sets the tone from day one that if people are speaking up and calling people out, then it just it just sets the tone that things you know don't don't blow up. It's just somebody stepping in and saying you know hey, did you realize?
Speaker 3:you know what you said in that meeting or it just just sets a good example and a good environment for everybody moving forward and that's it, it's it's's having those meeting manners almost around this, where that behavior won't be tolerated, but also the ability and the confidence and I think, fi, we're quite lucky that we're fairly senior in the company, we've got experience behind us that I would have the confidence to speak out and call somebody out.
Speaker 3:Now I might not have, in the beginning I might not have, not knowing the characters, but now I would have no bother doing that at all. Um, you know, if somebody says something inappropriate or makes a really inappropriate joke, I had so many inappropriate jokes levied at me, by the way, by two or three people when I joined the board and, being the first female on the board, kayleigh was, you know, I got the jokes. Oh, you know, if you'd, if you'd also been this and been that, you would, you know they'd have all of their diversity covered. Jill, you know. So it was actually very hurtful, but because it takes away from you've earned your place, yeah, um, so, professionally, it's really hurtful, you know yeah, it's a great opportunity to again to set that example.
Speaker 3:If you know what, I'm here and I earned it and we're going to do great things and but as women, right, there's that voice then in your head going have I earned it? Have they just given it to me? Because I'm a woman, I'm making up the numbers, um, and you have to. You have to work your way through that because you know you've worked damn hard to get there, so you know. But it's interesting that people oftentimes don't think about things like that. Have probably made me more conscious of what I would say and what I might joke about, because you know people oftentimes don't realize the power of those words or the effect that they can have on others. So, yes, oh.
Speaker 1:So, on that, do you have any advice that you would give to other women aspiring to climb the ranks? You know you've had your fair share of challenges. But is there wish, is there something that you wish somebody had told you before you started? You know, moving through the ranks, especially becoming, uh, one of the first women on a board, is there anything that you wish somebody behind you had told you?
Speaker 3:yeah, do you know what's interesting? I have thought about this a lot recently and, um, I am a perfectionist, but the challenge with being a mom and being a business person and being a leader, and being a manager and being a friend and being all of those things, is not to seek perfection, I'd say, but to seek balance. And if you can we don't always get it right, but if we can try and find a really healthy balance between work and home and all those other competing things that we have in our lives, you can achieve so much. Because if you're trying to be perfect, you're never going to reach um, because there's just simply too much to do. Um, but I I would say, yeah, finding finding balance versus finding perfection will help you to be really, really successful.
Speaker 3:And seek out. The other thing is, seek out an environment that's for you. Don't be afraid to make a change. There's so much choice, and what you need to find is somewhere where you feel really really comfortable in your own skin, because when you feel that way, your self-confidence is at its peak and you will go out and ask for opportunities. You will ask to get involved in other things. So don't stand in your own way in that regard either.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that, Finding your own seat as well, and where you feel comfortable in the company, and that sometimes doesn't mean that the companies are bad or that you know they've got the wrong environment, but it's just not the environment for you and where you can shine and move forward, and that's OK as well. To say this isn't for me, and to gracefully part way yeah, and to to find somewhere else and, fiona, you obviously found your environment. Um, total, my fault. Have you got any advice to share, uh, with other women aspiring to climb the ranks? Um, that you wish somebody had told you when you started your journey yeah, I think there's probably three things for me.
Speaker 2:One is have confidence in your own knowledge and believe that you do have that knowledge.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I've been very lucky at experiencing is having various different mentors throughout my career and at the minute, actually, jill is stepping in as a mentor for me at the moment in that leadership role as part of a course that I'm currently doing at the moment, so that I think having had that throughout my career has made a massive difference.
Speaker 2:And the other thing is just something I've experienced more recently is network with other women. Having been in the same company for such a long period of time, having been in the same company for such a long period of time, it's interesting for me to experience that network outside of work, the fact that other individuals experience similar issues, similar challenges. To Jill's point juggling and balancing a career and children and family life and everything else that goes with that. It's definitely been a struggle, but actually you're not you're not alone in doing that. So I think reaching out more recently to a wider network outside to mobile has made a difference to me as well yes, just just for other people to share that they, they're all feeling the imposter syndrome at some point.
Speaker 1:You know, you know just that you're not the only one.
Speaker 3:Yes, Including the men right. So it's not a female issue by any means.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and throughout your career men and women they do have that moment where they sit and they think, you know I'm going to get found out or somebody's going to know.
Speaker 1:You know that feeling. I don't think that's something that dawns on you when you've been in your career a few years, that not everybody feels fantastic every day, because you see leaders sometimes and you look at them and you think, oh, you know that person, they've got it so easy and you think actually they're just slightly better at hiding that they're having an off day or they know that they have to. You know, choose their words carefully around their team or um. It's not always that everybody is sitting there feeling like you know, let's go, team. And a lot of the time it dawns on you eventually that you think maybe my manager isn't feeling like that every day. They're just a little bit more careful about what they share with the team sometimes, um, and that everybody has their ups and downs instead of feeling, like you said, jill, like you have to feel everything has to be perfect and everything's wonderful every day yeah really isn't so it's funny the amount of times people have said are you always this cheerful Jill?
Speaker 3:and I'm like literally no, go ask, I could ask the kids, or, but you do, there isn't. There is that sort of mask that you put on for work as well, and that's normal, because part of that mask also protects you from some of the stuff that happens during the day, and certainly working in HR. Um, you know you, you need to protect yourself from some of the stuff that you see in here.
Speaker 1:So, um, and you mentioned that with consistency, actually, that you're a consistent leader, that you're not gonna you know your team won't find you in a terribly bad mood one day where you're, you know, going off at them for absolutely no reason at all. That doesn't necessarily mean putting on a mask when you know you're drowning, but just being, you know, a conscious sometimes of what you bring to work and how it affects your team, and perhaps you just don't say much that day.
Speaker 3:And none of us are perfect. I think that's the thing, because you know, obviously we all have off days and my team will tell you that as well which is, but you will say, look, I'm not great today, or you know, you have that trust with people as well, because we spend a lot of hours at work. It's an important relationship that you have with the people that you work with, so you need to be able to be honest, you need to be transparent, you need to be a little bit vulnerable sometimes. You need to show people that it's okay to talk about stuff if you need to, but then we need to get the job done. Also, and you know, I think we've got a unique environment here.
Speaker 3:I'm really, really proud to work here, and I'm very, very proud to work with the strong women that are here and that we have some amazing role models, some of the younger people. Kayleigh, I just have to say this. So we have an apprenticeship scheme, um, and we have some amazing young women and men on that scheme, but seeing them come through the ranks now just makes my heart burst with pride, um, because they've all moved on to different jobs, different roles, some of them a couple of times within the company, um, and they are so determined, they work so hard, but nothing is going to stop them reaching their goals and it's something really really cool to watch.
Speaker 3:So, um, yes, and to be part of an environment that's encouraged them to do that, that they won't need to stick around after their internship that's the thing, right, and, like you know, maybe some of them like they will still be here in 20 odd years time, which is amazing, right?
Speaker 1:so yeah yeah, and it takes a lot of hard work from a company. It's not something that's done overnight to get people to stay, and we took uh spoken a little bit about the challenges, um, that women in tech have faced, um, but I I also some of the the challenges that some of your women haven't faced as well is the other thing, once you're in the the right environment and I wanted to uh talk about that in terms of, you know, envisioning the future of gender diversity and representation in the boardroom what do you envision for the future of that, you know, in terms of ladies moving into executive leadership positions? Do you see anything for the future that might improve things for maybe not just your company, but companies that have been struggling?
Speaker 3:I mean, there's no end of research, isn't there that you know more diverse boards do better, more diverse executive teams do better, I mean, and that's lovely to read and hear about, but we need to see more of it in practice.
Speaker 3:But I think we're moving that way, like I love in our company that we have such diversity in our leadership, I think we will do more in terms of what do those succession plans look like? What are the next steps? How many women do we aim to have on the board in five years time? What targets do we set against those, so that we get really real about making this stuff happen versus just talking about it. But actually we're really lucky to have an exec team that wants to have those discussions, wants to put those targets in place, and in fact, every member of the exec team has an ESG target on their overall longer term goals. So that includes diversity, which is brilliant. So it's about not just talking about it, not just reading the research, but making it happen, um, and setting targets against it, and I think that that's something very real that can happen in the next few years yes, definitely, yeah, I, I agree, not just talking about it.
Speaker 1:Some, some companies, they just love to as well tick that box that they've done something and that's it, or they'll send. We do notice this. So we must say at she Can Code, we'll notice. The company will send one tweet on International Women's Day and they have ticked that box all year. So we love the companies that work with us all year because you know it is much more than that one tweet or that one day and actually putting it into action. I couldn't, couldn't agree more, and Fiona yourself, do you? What do you envision for the future of gender and diversity, especially in the boardroom and leadership?
Speaker 2:Well, probably along similar lines, kayleigh and I would love to see more diversity within that more senior role in the boardroom, um, but there are lots of probably putting a plan in place to help people at my level achieve that kind of thing, if that's something that people want to go for, um, we are very lucky to have that even balance within the senior management team.
Speaker 2:But, you know, to be able to, to see that I have a path for development to a board level or a non-exec level if that's something that I wanted to do would be, would be great. There are organizations out there at the moment, like IOD in Northern Ireland, who are actually putting in place sponsorship schemes and scholarships and funding to bring in, bring females through IOD certifications and leadership schemes, and so to see, to see more things like that would be really encouraging yes, definitely, and to to have that as well on on the agenda from the start, from from from, from when a company starts building into their DNA and as you grow, that's kind of um, you know, more funding and more programs happen.
Speaker 1:I I actually I wanted to touch upon that with um. Our last question today about what can organizations do to help more women into leadership roles and I know, fiona, a little bit earlier you mentioned that um, you know mentor schemes and that you've you've been lucky enough to have mentors and that jill is now helping you with that as well, is it? You know things like that that companies can do to get more women into leadership roles instead of? You know people feeling sometimes like they have to job hop because perhaps they've run out of opportunities or they're not being progressed within their company. Um, is that something that you would agree with or something that you've felt throughout your career?
Speaker 2:you've obviously felt quite, uh, encouraged at total mobile, to to stay and develop yeah, just just seeing that path for direction I think makes a difference, and certainly for the younger folks coming into the organization, knowing that they have that opportunity to be able to move. Um, I think, as an employer, total mobile have been great for me but I think we also need to understand the difference and the points of view and and the limiting beliefs and biases that maybe exist and the difference that that can make. As an employer, you know, to know the value of what a female perspective could bring, I think would make a big difference yeah, definitely, and do you, do you think that there's?
Speaker 1:there's more that organizations can do to help women into leadership roles?
Speaker 3:yeah, definitely. I mean, look, fee said it there's some, there's external courses there which are amazing, like I honestly for from a personal level as well wish I'd had some sort of board readiness course, because and I know they exist now, I didn't before, because actually friends and colleagues of mine are on it now. But I'm like you know, you don't know what you're walking into. So half of you feeling confident walking into a boardroom is about knowing what to expect. Nobody prepared me and I was just kind of a bit like, well, I'm just happy to be here, you know, but um, which is ridiculous, because actually you've got something to say. You're there for a reason, so to understand and to be able to do development for yourself, even around sort of jargon, company financials, all those things. Go and learn as much as you can, because there's nothing worse than being in a room where you don't know what's being spoken about. And you know, I went off and spoke to my colleagues after that on the board and said, right, I need two hours with you, two hours with you and two hours with you so that I can, a cut through the jargon but, b understand, kind of, what the important metrics are that we're discussing and all of those kind of things, because I was certainly coming at it from just a HR mindset and now I take a much broader view. Obviously I've been doing this for a couple of years now, so my understanding has grown.
Speaker 3:But I think we can definitely do more around board readiness. We can definitely do more around mentoring programs. We can do more around board readiness. We can definitely do more around um mentoring programs. We can do more around secondments. We can do more around I mean, there's there's no shortage of that. But I think you're right, we we're doing well at a senior management team level at the moment, but we need to bridge that gap now as to how do we what? What's it realistic to expect? Which roles are really realistic to expect will be at board level, and to sort of talk openly and be transparent about that um, and then, how do we prepare you for that? If you're interested, what does that look like?
Speaker 1:so, yeah, yeah, and just you saying that. It's just acknowledging that you know what. It doesn't happen by magic and that you, you have to have a plan and, um, that is obviously paying off at total mobile, the amount of ladies that you already have in management positions and then moving them through to leadership positions as well and to board level. So, um, yeah, it is. It is a journey that you have to really work at day by day and it's obviously starting to pay off. So, um, ladies, I could talk to you, um, for uh, another four hours on this topic, but we are already out of time. So, uh, it has been an absolute pleasure chatting with you both. Thank you so much to Gillian and Fiona for joining us today. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, kayleigh, thank you and for everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
