SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Staying power: Navigating long-term careers in tech
Join us on Spilling the T with special guests Emma Dean, COO, and Sali Davies, Product Director, both with an impressive 15 and 10 years at SMG!
Discover their incredible journey as SMG transformed into the UK's largest independent retail media operator. Gain insights into navigating long-term careers in tech, hear about the challenges, triumphs, and the evolving landscape of the industry.
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Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the Content Director at SheCanCode, and today we are discussing Staying Power Navigating Long-Term Careers in Tech. I've got two special guests with me today Emma Dean, coo, and Sally Davis, product Director, both with an impressive 15 and 10 years at SMG, and we're going to gain some insights into navigating long-term careers in tech, hear about the challenges, triumphs and the evolving landscape of the industry. Welcome, emma and Sally. Lovely to have you both on here, hello.
Speaker 2:Nice to be here.
Speaker 1:Ladies. We actually haven't had a topic on this before. I've had ladies that have been in tech for some time, but Staying Power is a new one on here and a really important one to discuss, so it's going to be a really good, interesting conversation today. Can we kick off with a bit of background about each of you, please, to set the context for our ladies? Emma, can we start with you?
Speaker 2:Yes, so I am, as you've already kind of noted, joined the business I'm in now at SMG 15 years ago so it was very kind of fresh in my career and joined, if I'm honest, a company that I love, the kind of ambition of the company, the drive, the culture that I could see it had, but I didn't really know what they were all about and what they were doing. I just wanted to join that kind of energy. So the founders had just started up what was then Capture at the time and a new kind of pioneering agency that was looking at how to break into the world of retail media, kind of really sitting in between those relationships between the retailers and brands to help develop great campaigns within our UK grocers. And so when I first got a role, I think my family thought I worked for Sainsbury's, which I was happy just to go along with.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I worked in the house there and, yeah, we did really just get involved really with the operations of kind of how that kind of big corporate business runs, but how we as an agency can be kind of the voice for brands to really understand how to kind of deliver great advertising campaigns within that space.
Speaker 2:And that was something that was still so new, so kind of um a world which is quite complex to get into in terms of kind of how the conversation happened and how you did kind of great campaigns.
Speaker 2:So, um, I really enjoyed that and um I um enjoyed kind of working in a startup and being able to help deliver kind of growth and look at kind of how we look to expand, kind of both within the business we were in within that partnership and beyond, and so I grew kind of my career within the company in a commercial sense, so kind of grew through the commercial teams and as we kind of grew our business there and led the capture business.
Speaker 2:We then diversified and became three agencies so that hence SMG, and over my career with SMG I've had many different roles, so I've worked from the commercial side. I've then gone off and worked with the different partnerships we've had, both at Heathrow and different places, had two children in the mix there and both times come back from maternity leave into different kind of roles that have suited that kind of balance that I needed to create for me and my family in part-time roles, both within sitting, centrally, looking at our people proposition, and more recently in the role I'm in today, I look at people, new business and marketing, so a lot of our centralized functions and how they run and operate for our total business.
Speaker 1:Incredible, so an incredible journey so far. When you started out, did you think that you'd be saying you work in a tech industry or you do anything to do with tech. It just sounds very techie and you probably thought no.
Speaker 2:That would have put me off because I would have been like I can't do that, I don't know anything about tech. The very words would have scared me. I would have kind of shied away from it. But as it's happened like we have evolved what we do as a business and I've become more confident in not being able to talk about that and then looking at how that is reflected and how we compare against other similar things in the market. And, yes, I guess it's only more recently that I've even considered the fact that I'm working in tech now, like this, our company, our business, has our centralized proposition. It is tech. In fact, we were acquired a couple years ago by Next15, and Next15 talk about the fact they acquired us for our tech proposition and I think they really made us realize how valuable that that is. And yeah, so I definitely would say I've fallen into kind of the edge. Talk about tech, but I'm nowhere near as technical as Sally, so she'll talk to you about it a lot more depth than me.
Speaker 1:You have lots of ladies just like you and lots of ladies like sally as well. So, sally, can you talk about you and your journey?
Speaker 3:yeah, I guess I'm a little bit different to emma from that perspective, whereas I've always loved tech, I've always been sort of the techie one, I guess. Um, for, even from when I was in school and I think when I was in school I was quite torn between going down a computing path or a more creative one via marketing. So I did computing A level, for example, and so even at that point I was pretty interested in it. But I think at the time I was the only woman in the class. I was surrounded by guys and I think it was quite unusual I at that time for that to be the case and maybe that put me off a little bit from going directly into tech straight from school. So in the end I opted to go to uni and I did marketing in uni and then I found myself in the marketing arena post uni and ended up in SMG.
Speaker 3:But then I quickly started to get involved in different side projects as the business was growing. So, as Emma said, it was a startup. It was sort of you could get involved in anything you wanted. So I often got involved in these different side projects. One of our founders loved tech himself, so it was always around. How could we dabble and create different, like little beta apps that we could utilize internally? So I kept getting involved and kept finding out.
Speaker 3:I was being sort of brought over to that side of the business. So I think over time I did a few different roles in the business, very similar to Emma, but I realized sort of I wanted to move into more of that innovation side of the business and ultimately into tech. I didn't really know quite what I wanted to do, but I realized that I was unofficially doing product work almost under an innovation remit, um, but then over time, yeah, smg gave me the opportunity to almost like pivot my career, um, and sort of reset that, which I'm really grateful for. So, um, yeah, now I'm all things product and strategy when it comes to SMG's sort of portfolio incredible.
Speaker 1:I it's, it's almost it's saddening to hear as well that you were at school and then you thought that's not for me at uni. And we hear that so often that there's something that you just think you know what? I don't want to continue studying this, but thankfully you know you fell into the right company and opportunities opened again.
Speaker 1:But we hear that so often from young girls at school that just are not, are not encouraged, or kind of get to that point where I think you know I don't want to continue in this subject because of your experience at school or being the only female on the course, um, which is very sad, but um, it's nice to hear that you did land, uh, a job where at least you were encouraged to go back into your tech roots, which doesn't happen for everybody.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure. I think I remember those days where I was just sat in a little computer lab in school and you're just like, is this odd that I'm the only woman in this room, or I think you've just got to be relatively confident in your decisions at that point. And I think the industry is starting to change and you see a number of different industry bodies yourselves here talking about women in tech a lot more, and I think that's encouraging. I think it's important to make sure sort of it's filtering down to that sort of school age, because I think I think a lot of it is just seeing people within the industry and sort of women in those leadership positions or in various tech businesses. So you know that that it isn't like it is the norm, for example, and that totally can be an option that you can go down. Yes, yes, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yes, it should just be seen as the norm, um, and ladies should just feel encouraged to go into that area and stay as you. Both of you ladies have staying power as the title of our podcast today. You stayed at Emma 15 years and Sally 10 years at SMG. What contributed to your decision to stay with the company for such a substantial period? That's not for everybody and a lot of people do job hops, so what? What has it been about the company that that has made you stay? And, emma, should we start with you 15 years?
Speaker 2:so for me, I think the fact that the business has evolved so much has meant that it's always felt fresh you know, I've not ever had a moment I felt like I was stagnating in the same role, in the same kind of setup.
Speaker 2:We've worked with numerous different partners. We've sat within different offices looking at different kind of challenges that businesses are facing. We've looked at how we evolve our business in light of what's going on in the ever-changing landscapes. That's meant we've always been having to think about um, you know, obviously kind of evolving our technology being a main, main part of that, but looking at how we um offer different kind of propositions to different clients, how that looks on both the retailer side and the brand side, how we look at that from a not only uk-centric kind of view. But what's that look like when we go internationally? And every kind of six months or a year we're looking at a whole new kind of set of challenges we need to overcome and growing our team in line with that. And I think just knowing that there's always that change of horizon has meant there's never, never felt a need to leave. And within that, I think, sally kind of references.
Speaker 2:The business is built on a desire to give everyone opportunities to continue to grow their careers in whichever direction they want to take them.
Speaker 2:So we have so many kind of examples of that within our business, where people have started in one kind of discipline and then have quickly kind of realized their niche elsewhere and be able to kind of learn from others and grow into that and build a role that's right for them. And I think I'm similar in that regard in that I've really found kind of real pleasure in being able to kind of add value in the areas that I think I can add the most value in other places that maybe I wouldn't have automatically gone into at the start of my career. And being able to do that with a company that you love and that you really kind of have so much drive, passion and energy for is a true privilege. And yeah, I just really enjoy kind of everything that our company is trying to do and the people that I'm doing it with and, ultimately, the culture that we've created as we've gone along the way yeah, that's lovely to hear.
Speaker 1:It's nice as well when you talk about, uh, joining a startup and what that was like and, um, I, I love that startup culture and it's it's so much fun to be a part of a business that is constantly changing and you're constantly moving offices because there's you, you've outgrown them and, um, you're changing your messaging and everything about what you're doing. That isn't for everybody, that some people just dislike. You know, I want to get into a corporate and it's kind of all there. And I want to get into a corporate and it's kind of all there and I want to do my day job and I don't want it to change too much. But we say at she Can Code. It takes a certain kind of crazy person to want to join a startup because it is hard. It's hard when you start and you have to really grind every day to get things moving and to get it working. But so rewarding as well, I mean so, so rewarding.
Speaker 2:I totally agree and I think there's so much of kind of that energy from the early years that we want to. We are desperate to retain that and even though we're now a business of 370, 380 people across kind of multiple locations 370, 380 people across kind of multiple locations not only in the UK but globally it's hard to keep that same sense of, I guess, anticipation and kind of that startup kind of mentality. But I think we're doing it in the best way we can and agility is a big part of that. Giving people the duty to kind of move around, try out new things and make decisions quickly that that's a big part of it. And, yeah, I'll be the day that we don't maintain an element of that will be the day that I would be thinking is this still right for me? But that day hasn't come yet and I hope it doesn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and Sally yourself. Is that something that you would echo about the reasons why you've stayed for for 10 years?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think emma's stolen my response. Really, you find that across the business, we all have very similar reasons for the people who have that been there. I think, um, you'll see a lot of our leadership team have been in the business for a fair while. Actually, um, I think that's testament to sort of the culture, um, but also the business like give responsibility to junior people, uh, quite quickly, and I think people like you either thrive and you love that.
Speaker 3:As you said, it's like that startup mentality I know when I recruit and I'm interviewing roles sometimes I do try and reiterate that point of every day isn't the same. I can't tell you sort of what your week will look like. Some weeks it will be totally different to others and some people thrive on that but some people don't like it. And I think it's important to be transparent with that um in that interview process, uh, because you've got to hire the right people, as you said, who do want to sort of push forward, be proactive, go and figure out what the the solutions to various problems and sort of dip your toes into areas which wouldn't necessarily be part of your role in a larger corporate but are crucial to the success for a startup, for example yeah, you saying their responsibility.
Speaker 1:If you're giving more responsibility to a junior team member, that's great in some aspects, but some junior people might think you know, that's really not for me. Whereas some people think I learned so much at startup, it was so fast and I learned so much, whereas you kind of you might disappear into the workforce in a corporate where actually there's nobody in your way in a startup, which is a good thing, but that also means that responsibility it falls on you because there is nobody else who's going to do it. So, yeah, it's quite a balance and you're right finding the right people that can move a team forward and that are willing to stick it out as well. You know, like both of you, you perfect examples of that the people that don't want to join a company and then job hop. You know, if a company is growing, you really need to pick people that are very passionate, um, and are going to stay for the long haul. So, um, they obviously made the right choice in both of you, ladies.
Speaker 1:Um, you would have seen a lot of changes, uh in the um tech landscape uh along the way. How have you adapted to these changes, uh, in your role and and how? How has the tech landscape changed over the years? Um, sally, should we go with you, in case you think emma steals your answer?
Speaker 3:um, I mean retail media, which is the business that we're in, um, especially like MarTech as well has changed drastically, especially in the last 18 months. Um, the landscape has, uh, just evolved. I can't tell you how different it is. It's sort of become the sexy part of marketing. It used to be sort of just seen as cardboard in store. So from a tech perspective, um, there wasn't too much competition out there, whereas now there's new competitors popping up for every week. Uh, so from our perspective now it's gotten a lot more aggressive.
Speaker 3:Um, but I think it's crucial at that point to make sure that you're staying ahead of the market. You're reading, you listen to this podcast as I try and sort of soak in as much um sort of news to understand what's going on from multiple different sources, um, to make sure that we can adapt and the way we work and our clients work have totally changed as well. Everyone expects more quicker, so it's a case of adapting our products, but also how our business works to sort of adapt. Alongside that, I guess, how our business works, to sort of adapt alongside that, I guess you might get things like even down to the point of I used to sketch everything out, for example, from a wireframe process flows, all of that, I think now because we want to fire that across to different teams. We have whiteboarding tools, we have collaboration tools right, because we've got people across the world. I still love sort of having an element to draw, so I'll have my pet, like my pen, on an iPad and do that rather than anything on paper, um, and now none of my notes are on paper. I'm totally transferred. But I find that more comforting because I might be out and about, I might be with a client, I might be on my phone, like just the way we're interacting is totally different now and I like I hate the fact that, oh, I've got my notebook. Where's that gone? And I can always access everything from everywhere, even down to jira tickets, if I'm talking to devs or any. I've got everything on my phone. So that is sort of my Bible. I'm on a call, I know where some like the status is at for any project at any time.
Speaker 3:I think that's what sort of massively shifted from a process perspective. But then, yeah, as I said, the fact that everyone wants everything on demand now. So it's around. How do we get um data and insights, which is where we work a lot in to our clients faster. So integrations is key. Now we're like connecting to so many other different partners and media partners across business, uh, to just pull in that data. So you've got one source of truth and creating products which sort of make everyone's lives simpler, because in a world where tech is sort of um so crucial, no one wants to have to learn um multiple different platforms. We want all one solutions now which make our lives easier. Right, so that might be, uh, one single solution which aggregates everything, but it even might be something that simplifies your calendar or anything it might be.
Speaker 1:It's just around simplifying really yeah, and again, to keep up with that is, as you said at the start, very fast pace. Again, that takes a certain type of person that is willing to keep up with extra learning, learn things that perhaps are outside of their day job sometimes, and all of that again takes a certain type of person to keep up with. How fast the industry is moving, you know, because sometimes we learn something. You might be looking ahead to a role in front of you and actually you've learned something and it's already changed because things are moving so fast. Um which is one of the fun things about tech industry, but one of the major challenges about working in the tech industry and emma yourself, what about you in in your um 15 years? What have you seen change in the tech landscape and how have you adapted your role to that?
Speaker 2:so, um, I guess I go back to what we were saying earlier around, like when we started out, we definitely wouldn't have called ourselves a tech business. I think technology became part of how we did things. Um, as Sally mentioned, she was kind of tinkering around with some products and ideas to make our lives easier in the background and and then that kind of involves something that clients see and you kind of look at how you build upon that. And I think, up until only recently, as we've kind of our technology has supported our proposition, um, but we haven't necessarily kind of pushed that forward and branded that and marketed kind of what we, what we do, um, I think, given the change in the landscape and and also, as I mentioned earlier, acquisition by our parent company next 15, we kind of quickly realized that we would need to kind of really stand up and kind of be be be heard in that, in the tech space, um, and we realized that what we were building has so much more to offer than maybe we ever gave ourselves credit for. You know, we were probably doing all this stuff and going it kind of works for us. That's how, kind of, you know, we, we make our lives better and easier and more efficient. But there were kind of people going well, you know that actually your clients are really benefit from having more access to that, or even like a self-serve version, or can you show them how you're going to evolve that? So we've absolutely put kind of um, we've motored on kind of looking at how we build that team so. So we've recruited a whole load more kind of into our tech team in the recent kind of the last six months alone, let alone last year, and we've looked at how we continue to position ourselves in that space. So, as Sally said, there's so many more competitors kind of in that landscape. Now how do we make sure our technology players are really kind of well known and understood and kind of our usps are kind of really clear?
Speaker 2:Um, a significant change we made the last year is we we used to have um an agency called lobster, lobster, with the um agency kind of uh facing for our technology plan apps and we used to go go out and talk about kind of how lobster could kind of deliver against kind of your, your needs with plan. That's being kind of the way in which we did that. We realized that quickly that really we don't need this frontage brand. We just need to shout about plan apps. So we kind of dissolved lobster. We brought plan apps before and we do a lot more work now to market plan apps, as it's in its own right um, and and that was a great decision, I think, a really um, pivotal one, in the point where tech is becoming so much more about um, what what's being shafted about, and we need to be kind of showing our our parts playing that um yeah, it's so interesting when and I've heard this from a few businesses before we didn't see ourselves as a tech business and then, um, it's as things evolve.
Speaker 1:We think the tech team grows and actually everything just feeds into tech, feeds into the tech industry um, and that's one of the reasons why this podcast was started as well, to talk about the, the whole range of um roles that are available in tech, and that people always think that you have to be super techie coder, developer to go into tech and that is it, and that a lot of companies are even changing the way that they think about themselves, let alone just their tech team, um, because everything always comes back to the tech industry um, and that more people should know that I consider it as a career?
Speaker 1:um, on that note, how do you approach skill development and staying relevant in the ever-changing tech field? Sally, you mentioned that a little bit about staying ahead of the curve and listening to podcasts and trying to find some time I suppose carving out some time to always make sure that you're developing your skills skills but how? How do you? How do you approach that yourself? Do you ever kind of reach the end of the year and think, oh, I didn't carve out any time to start ahead of things?
Speaker 3:yeah, it's really difficult, right, like it's hard for the day-to-day not to just get in the way, um, and I think that's why I find different formats quite useful. So I might have a couple of podcasts, like I said, just sort of there, like I'll download them, even if I don't listen to them, like when they first come out, but I'll have them downloaded so if I'm on the tube or a train I might then sort of tune into something, especially if there's a particular topic that I want to hear. But I think, in terms of wider stuff around reading, I have reoccurring blocks in my diary. Do they sometimes get overwritten, of course? But I do think it's really, really valuable. I'll find like a Friday afternoon is sort of when I want to wind down, is some of the best time that I get get a cup of tea, have my lunch and sit there and just have a little bit of a read, because I think it's really valuable between upcoming stuff.
Speaker 3:It will feed into your competitive research and it really should feed right into your strategy going forward, right, because otherwise, if you don't do it, someone else will. And that's sort of where we want to be. We want to make sure that we're staying ahead of the curve. We know exactly what's going on, uh, and what's new within the market, so it's so important. But yeah, like you said, it's so easy to get um sort of dragged into the day-to-day. You've just got to be really stringent of making sure that you protect that time. But, yeah, I would recommend looking at different ways to sort of ingest that, even if it's like using AI, for example, to summarize some bits and pieces and you just get the headlines. I found that really useful, like I'll get different bulletins to my inbox and then I'll just have various different headlines and I can dive into the ones that I find most relevant, which has actually really helped from a time saving perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and yeah, as you said, lots of different resources as well, because if you do have those days where you think I didn't have time to read anything but perhaps I could listen to something on the train, then, yeah, just mixing it up a little bit, sure that you do something to to keep you ahead of of what is coming. Um, emma, do you have a similar experience with how you keep up your skill development?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think, um, a huge part of it has got to be around kind of on on the job, learning and, like you say, immersing yourself in what's going on in the industry, especially an industry that's so fast paced as it is, like you know. Booking a training course three months time wouldn't be no good, but in this kind of setting and environment it'd be out of date before you got to it. I think, making sure you give yourself that time but also sharing that knowledge as well. So we have quite a good system where we make sure that as a group, you know whether it's a, a group directors or whether in our teams we share kind of spotlights on. This is what I've seen, this is what I think it means for us what do you think? And kind of just get that dialogue going between the groups so that it doesn't have anything formal. It's just making sure that we're always all having that conversation and encouraging each other to kind of contribute to that conversation as well.
Speaker 2:And of course, there will be some need for more formalized training and we encourage people to think about what skill gaps there might be.
Speaker 2:I mean, I would say you know my role, essentially looking after my learning development as part of my remit.
Speaker 2:I won't always know what I don't know about kind of what's coming up and what therefore, our engineers might need to learn about our product team might need to learn about. So actually getting people to kind of what's coming up and what, therefore, our engineers might need to learn about our product team might need to learn about. So actually getting people to kind of say I think this is going to be coming up and we need to kind of upskill our teams in this. We've got everyone's got an individual fund that they can just say I'm going to go on x course and I'm going to use my fund for that and then bringing that back into business and kind of filtering that through. So we have a system in place. But I'd say majority of what, um, we, we need to see in this space from a development, developmental kind of perspective, is kind of on the job, knowledge sharing, um, a lot of the time I think, yeah, be mindful as well not that sorry.
Speaker 3:No, I was just gonna say as well.
Speaker 3:I think it's important to try and protect a little bit of time and in your team's sort of diaries, to just do stuff which isn't necessarily tied to the roadmap or sort of key pillars.
Speaker 3:We found, for example, running different hackathons and things like that really, really valuable, not only from the team. Really enjoy it, just doing something that hasn't got as much pressure on, like it's all team building, but we'll always try and do something that we've never done before to build that skill development as well. So it might be sort of a fail fast learn, fast mentality almost for the for that project and we'll have a couple of days doing it and we've had some real success from it and you get the like the team have a real buzz when they're doing it and it's just great to see from that perspective and then you might have something that comes to life and comes into fruition in the platform, the front end and the guys are really proud of it and I think we always try and do that every quarter or so. Just make sure that we protect that time, which would be something that I would say has worked really well for us at SMG.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. Yeah, the hackathons are. We run hackathons and they're very much a space of just ideas and ideation, and whether or not you've attended a hackathon before're right. It is carving out that time as well, because it is so easy for the year to run away with you and then just saying I got so bogged down in my day job I learned nothing else, or I hadn't even started to figure out what I would like to do next, instead of just what my company is getting me to do next. So you're right, it's a setting. That's that side of time. That time aside, I'm getting tongue twisted now. As leaders within an organisation, how do you approach leading teams, emma? Is there anything that you could tell our ladies as to how you approach leading your team? Any advice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so again, I think we've touched on briefly within the conversation already, tell our ladies as to how you approach leading your team. Any advice? Yeah, so, um, again, I think we've touched on briefly within the conversation already, but a big part of my approach as leader is giving people the autonomy that maybe they don't realize they want or need, but that gives them the space to really grow and learn fast, because that's how we grew I think Sally would be tested to that as well and that if you're given that space, um, to make decisions and to fail fast, then you're likely to kind of really thrive and enjoy what you're doing as well. So we kind of tend to let the reins out a bit. Yeah, there's obviously always a bit of kind of uh, training and parameters need to go around that, but as much as possible I will always hand back and say kind of well, what do you think? Come back to me when you kind of had a think about how you'd approach that and we can discuss it. Rather than kind of giving people kind of real kind of step, promises, direction. I think it gives people, um, that freedom, empowerment to kind of really innovate, and that's where we see our best work as well.
Speaker 2:Um, another big part of my kind of approach is trying to continue celebrate what we do.
Speaker 2:I think you know, and coming back to that point, around getting bogged down the day-to-day we can kind of quite quickly get to the end of the month go. We actually haven't ever stepped back and just gone hey, look at what we've achieved and let's kind of celebrate that and that being able to do that drives the right approach, morale and want and desire to do kind of more and also reflect as well and um, reflecting on on kind of what we could have done and how we could have approached differently. And and celebrating what we did do well is is really healthy and we talk a lot about kind of feedback being absolutely integral to kind of all of our leaders kind of approach and making sure that you're encouraging feedback, kind of sharing within teams, and you're giving feedback good, bad, everything consistently and constantly to kind of really breathe that culture of and wanting to kind of always grow and learn more. So and I think they're my three things autonomy, kind of celebration and feedback.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that takes time as well to to create that culture where, um, it's okay to give feedback, you expect feedback and that's okay, and that, um, you, you are allowed to try things and you are allowed to foul, and nobody points at you and says you know you've really fouled and and don't ever do that again.
Speaker 1:And and, um, when I've worked at companies like that, I have stayed so far longer than I have anywhere else, because I remember a manager saying to me yeah, sure, give it a go, don't cost us any money, but give it, give it a go. You know, it's kind of there was a bit of a foul soap in there make sure that you don't cost us too much money, but why don't you? You know, use your own initiative, try something new, um, and you start those companies a lot more because you just naturally do more for those companies as well. They don't even have to try to get you to do extra, you just naturally do it. So, yeah, sally, is that kind of a way, that an approach that you have taken to leading your team, giving them that safe space to to foul and to grow yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3:I think we do also have some time set aside within, say, the end of sprints or every every, every so often, where we do say to the guys like you've got an afternoon, you've got a day. Once these tickets are done, you can go and work on a side project. We've also found that works really well to keep people motivated, um, but I also think that even in a business that moves with quite a lot of agility, we've learned that it's also really important that we communicate a really clear vision to everyone, and everyone knows the direction of travel, but also what role they play in that. So whether you're in the marketing team, the sales team, product tech, wherever you are in the business, you know exactly what you need to do to help drive the business to that common goal. I think communicating that and giving really clear updates has helped us as well.
Speaker 3:Make sure that everyone stays motivated in that space. And then I guess my final thought on it would be I think, within my role in particular as well I'm sure Emma has the same I have to wear many hats, so tailoring my approach depended on the audience, so I've been able to do that successfully. Uh, making sure that the communications, the messaging, how how you come across, is tailored to make sure that you get the most out of that team, uh. So whether it's explaining something a bit more technical uh to our devs, or high level update, to say, the EC, I think that's really important to making sure that we sort of lead that team and lead the business effectively.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and I'm actually can go a great believer in as well.
Speaker 1:You learn by behavior and that when you set that tone as a leader, that trickles down to your team and they see you know certain behaviors from yourself, whether that's even carving out time for extra skills and development, um, or, uh, you know, allowing your team time to to go off and and do a side project.
Speaker 1:All of that, again, like, it doesn't happen overnight. That takes that takes a long time, but it's kind of they. It has to come from the top down and it has to come from from the leaders to be able to see that, um, for for people to to feel like they want to stick around for a long time as well, in an environment where they really feel heard and that they can try something, try something new, um, in terms of talking about long-term careers there, do you have any advice for aspiring leaders who are looking to build long-term careers there? Do you have any advice for aspiring leaders who are looking to build long-term careers in tech? And, emma, do you have any advice for those that are looking to to stay in tech and and build a career there?
Speaker 2:yeah, I guess they have to. My experience, it don't be afraid of the word tech and the jargon that might come with it. Like I think you know, like if I kind of um face that head-on at the start of my career, I'm I may have, um, you know, made a quick side move and thought differently about how I'll approach this, being able to say, you know what, if we can break down what is it we're really trying to do? And, as you pointed out earlier, like, tech is a part of everything we all do every day and it's becoming more and more integral to every different process and way in which we um simplify how we do do our roles and make um our propositions more effective for our clients. I think, you know, you just realize that it's not as scary as maybe the the industry might uh be perceived to be. And you actually you're already, you're already kind of a user of it, you're already very much kind of a part of it and just breaking, already very much kind of a part of it and just breaking down those walls and barriers.
Speaker 2:And a big part of what we talk about actually as a business, aside from tech, outside of everything, is making sure we stay honest and we simplify our language so we make sure that we're tussling through. What does that really mean and how do we help our clients understand that? Our people, whether they're new recruits, understand what it is we're trying to do? Don't use our abbreviations, don't kind of try and overcomplicate it. Really kind of simplify that message because I think it makes it more accessible for everyone.
Speaker 2:So I'd say, kind of drive that accessibility as a leader, break down those kind of barriers and yeah, and don't kind of maybe pigeonhole tech as something that is not your bag, just because you've not got that background that maybe kind of more technical kind of computer science kind of graduates may have. You know that that's not where I come from, it's not where a lot of kind of our teams have come from, but and yet we're, we're working with it day in, day out and yeah, a part of that process and so many roles you said within the tech industry that aren't kind of dev or product kind of roles that are integral to kind of really driving that forward and think about, kind of where you can have that value and how you can kind of be a part of that yeah, and you know what we've had?
Speaker 1:um, I've had quite a lot of conversations on here with product managers who said I didn't even know I was, I could do that. I didn't even know I was actually doing that for some time, because it's the worry of the word tech, I can't work in tech. And then, especially with product managers, they were like actually I was already doing that, I was already organized and I was already managing everybody's projects. I just didn't know I could be a product manager in tech. Um, so you're right, it's something that kind of people see that and they think I can't do it or I'm going to be working on my own and it's going to be very siloed and it's going to be very stereotypical of working in the tech industry, um, and that that really turns people off of a career in tech. Um, sally yourself. Do you have any advice for leaders looking to build long-term careers in the industry?
Speaker 3:um, I mean, emma's covered a lot of it, I think. I think my only point would be don't be afraid to pivot your career. Um, you don't have to be in it right from the start. Um, I think many people like we've already end up in tech or in the sphere of technology or business that has tech as part of it, but you don't need to have that degree or that experience already. Tech moves so quickly, for example, with AI. No one's really got more than a couple of years experience of AI at this point, so it doesn't really matter if you wanted to just get into it now, because you'll probably know just as much as many people around you, for example. So the industry is moving at a pace so quickly that if it's something that you're interested in and it's something that you've got a passion for, just think you need to be fearless and take a bit of a risk and make that pivot into the tech industry.
Speaker 1:Yes, so many of our community ask that question and on our live webinars we get asked questions from ladies in their 40s and 50s and they say is it too late to transition into tech? And obviously our community and our panel always says no, no, it is never too late to consider a career in tech, no matter what area it is. So, yeah, there's great advice Don't be afraid to pivot at any point, and you bring all those wonderful soft skills with you and all of those skills with you from wherever you have come from into the tech industry. So it's quite an easy transition for lots of people. Um, ladies, in your time in the industry. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about have you seen diversity and female representation change within the tech sector? Sally, I know you started. You started on a very um techie course and you was the only female at school. What was it like for you when you then came in and have you seen things change? How has that been for you?
Speaker 3:I think SMG as a business is very diverse, so really lucky from that perspective. But I think, from an industry-wide um perspective, I think it's fair to say that there's been slow but positive change, uh, in diversity and female representation. So, especially when you look at different large businesses, women in tech, there is definitely a move. Uh, is it as quick as we would like? Uh, I'd probably say not, um, but it's obviously great to see that those stats are shifting in the right direction. Um, but I think it's all driven ultimately by I think I said before about driving that awareness of those women in tech.
Speaker 3:So either initiatives like yourselves or different non-profits that are out there which are really driving sort of the message, or even like different industry bodies, I think the world, like the industry, is going in the right direction and it's really about making sure and driving awareness at that young age that people it is accessible whoever you are, whether it's diversity, whether it's getting females involved in the industry, um, I think we're definitely moving in the right direction.
Speaker 3:Are we quite there yet? Um, no, I would say um, but it's our responsibility as well as um, as hiring managers as well, to play a part in that and making sure that we're looking at diversity and it is an important sort of topic within our business, but, yeah, there are so many brilliant women that are out there who are becoming different pioneers, which are in different multinational companies, and their achievements are sort of really helping, I think, to define that in the future. So I think we just need to keep pushing, ultimately, and pushing everything in the right direction and sort of driving more awareness and openness around the topic. Hopefully we'll get there and where we want to be.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's a fact that you picked up on. It's your responsibility as well to know that and just to be aware of when you, when you are hiring, uh, to make sure that the candidate pool is diverse, um to to, um, ensure that, at least you know, diversity is um top of the agenda, um, for each role. Emma, is that something that you have seen have? Things got better, moving at glacial pace, but things got better in terms of more female representation yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm talking a lot about this this week in in obviously light of women's day and looking at kind of females in leadership positions and obviously it's moving in the right direction. We're still not there yet, but it's definitely kind of we've seen a shift in females in C-suite roles. I would say kind of the females in CTO and maybe CFO roles are still not quite at parity with other more what would be traditionally seen as more stereotypically female-led kind of sectors. Maybe things like CMOs, c-hros like those are kind of more typically the ones that are shifting the balance. See, hros like those are kind of more typically the ones that are shifting the balance. So how do we encourage more females to get into kind of leading, being leaders in the tech space? Because, as sally pointed out, being able to kind of really um demonstrate that helps you go well, if they can do it, I can do it and kind of it's following by example.
Speaker 2:I think what we do as a business is we we've always had the mentality of growing people's careers from a um from the ground up.
Speaker 2:So helping people kind of get into their career and start at a junior level and grow in the business, and what we are looking at doing is bringing in more apprenticeships like schemes.
Speaker 2:So if we can look at focusing on that for kind of this discipline, it will help, I think, grow people's confidence. So you don't need to know anything, come to us and we will help grow that from very early on and organically, you know, in a few years time you just then start seeing those people come through into more leadership roles and it should be a virtuous kind of cycle. So I think you know a big part of that is on is on us to continue to do that. Um, yeah, I, I think it's uh, it's certainly a great example in our business of kind of being able to demonstrate that I have confidence and we just need to kind of continue to shine a light on that. And things like this help, don't they? They really help to kind of make sure people feel like it's not unusual and actually that that's, you know, follow the kind of path that you want to follow and know that kind of you're going to be supported in that.
Speaker 1:So, and yeah, I'm really pleased that we're able to talk about it and then hopefully that's going to only kind of go in the right direction over the coming months yeah, and ladies are all areas of the businesses you said, right through from apprenticeship right through to leadership, because um, we're still, you know, there is, there is a lot to do uh right along the the whole pipeline. But women in leadership obviously is moving a lot, lot slower than other areas. But it is so important to have ladies at all areas of the business to inspire the ladies just behind them to think, yes, I will make that leap into leadership, because sometimes if you don't see that person in front of you then you might not be inspired to to move into that, especially not the same company as well, to stay at the same company.
Speaker 2:You really need, um good leaders in front of you and, um, sometimes good female leaders as well, to kind of uh pave the path for the other ladies behind and we sorry, I was aware we, we as a talent team have an agenda to look at how we continue to diversify the talent pool, the candidates that we have coming our way and kind of applications we have coming in, and I think there's so many smart little tools you can use to help drive that. You know there's like gender decoders and we found that has a massive difference. If you just change the wording in kind of the job description, that might make it more kind of accessible to the right people. And you know, I think things like that can have a huge, huge difference and you know we're hoping that as we grow our teams, we see the rewards of that.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, because some ladies can see something and think, you know, I don't tip all those boxes. Some ladies can see something and and think you know, I don't tip all those boxes, I might not go for it, um, which is, uh, it never helps. Okay, ladies into roles, or they think we can really grow them, or good companies, just bridge that gap, um, for anything that you, that you can't do, they just want to grab hold of the good talent and then train you up in in the areas that you might not necessarily tick at that point. Um, ladies, we're almost out of time. If you could go back and give your younger selves advice when starting out, what would it be? Do you have any advice for our listeners that you wish you had been told when you started out in the industry? Emma, should we start with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think again, to summarise a few things we've talked about, one would be around don't be afraid to try lots of different things. Your career is a long, long journey and you don't need, if you get into one thing at the beginning that doesn of apply, you can always make those that skills that applicable to your, your next role. So I'd say kind of, don't be afraid of lots of what you might see as sideways moves. It's going to make you a much more valuable employee, um, and also, don't worry about what's next.
Speaker 2:I think you know that it's a mentality we really try and instill in people is think about, yes, be ambitious. Yes, think about kind of um starting so, kind of what was our vision, what's your role in trying to live against that. But if you worry too much about kind of um, what's going to be in five years time, you may not kind of grasp hold of kind of opportunities that are going to rise that we just don't know about yet. Like the industry's changing your circumstances, the business might change. Try and be um adaptable to what's in front of you and not kind of worry too much about kind of the the long, long term, because, um, it's more exciting, I think, to just kind of accept kind of and be adaptable to kind of where um you might be taking on that journey yes, definitely that's.
Speaker 1:that's really good advice and especially when you're at startup, you don't quite know where the business is going to go. You, you don't even really know, perhaps, what you might want to do personally, I interviewed a lady a couple of years ago who was at a business who said most ladies she had the thought of I need to be a good business, I need to know what I'm doing, I need to be in a leadership role All by the time I'm 40, because she had in mind about having children and then she wanted to exactly know what was going to happen. She'd actually almost planned her career around the thought of having children and then being at a job where she could be more flexible and all of that. And she said actually I wish I just had stepped back for a moment and thought why am I planning my career around? I need to be flexible when I have children. She was like I wish I'd just been in the moment and kind of gone with what was happening instead of always thinking.
Speaker 1:You know, for her she was sort of thinking 10 years ahead and, um, and she said I wish I'd just gone with the moment and, uh, taken my career, um, where it took me at the time and she did eventually end up in a very flexible role for children, um, but she, uh, just wished that she'd paid a little bit more for um sally yourself, any advice that you would give your younger self, or anything that you would like to share with our listeners um, I guess, be foolish a little bit, and I mean that in a way where don't be afraid to think outside the box a little.
Speaker 3:No idea is a stupid idea. I think that's really important to continue to push that behaviour. I think I wish I would have had the confidence to always do that. We're lucky at SMG that it is something that we really pride ourselves on, but all companies might not sort of shout about that like we have had. I think it's really important to continue to push those boundaries. Going back to that piece around learn fast, fail fast mentality, I think is really important when you're in tech to continue to innovate and continue to think or have that safe space to think outside of the box and not feel stupid if something doesn't necessarily work out.
Speaker 3:And I guess my final point would be realize that you you always don't need to know everything. Um, build teams, uh, and you build teams with people around you which are stronger than you might be in and have different skill sets, but they're the strongest teams. Um, you need diverse teams. Different people will bring different things to the table. Um, and don't be afraid if you don't sort of know everything um, that your team members might have that's sort of the strength of a good team, uh, and a good team leader, sort of embracing that um to sort of drive success yeah, I love that we I have said that so many times on this podcast of so many ladies that have stepped into leadership for the first time and they had that panic where they thought everybody expects me to know everything.
Speaker 1:I'm meant to know everything because I now lead this team. And you're so right. You build a team that knows everything Between you all to know absolutely everything, um, because that's that is why you need a team and and why certain teams are successful, and you're absolutely right. So many ladies have have said I wish somebody had told me that I think we're all guilty of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, well, that is lovely advice to end it on, ladies, because we are already out of time. So thank you so much for sharing your stories today. It's been a pleasure hearing about your journeys and um how you have found a great company that you've loved to just um grow and develop in, and I'm sure you will be there a lot longer, and so we would love to have an update with you at some point along the way. But thank you, emma and s Sally, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much, lovely speaking to you and to everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
