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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Navigating the Intersection: Being an Ethnic Minority & a Woman
In this episode, join us as we delve into the intersection of being an ethnic minority and a woman in the professional world. Our featured guests from Zühlke, Shen Xu and Li Gardner, who are the first in their families to migrate to the UK from East Asia and are accomplished professionals in their own right, share their insights, challenges, and triumphs.
We explore the subtle nuances between being British-born and a first-generation migrant, discussing how different upbringings and educational backgrounds can shape one's experiences. Language barriers, stereotypes, and the importance of awareness are key themes as we unpack the complexities of navigating corporate environments.
From stereotypes such as the 'hardworking Asian woman' to the challenges of fitting into male-dominated work cultures, Shen and Li provide invaluable perspectives and practical advice.
Join us as we explore the power of community, the importance of self-reflection, and the journey toward authenticity in the face of cultural expectations.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayleigh Bateman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing navigating the intersection being an ethnic minority and a woman. I'm lucky enough to have two amazing women from Zulka with me today, shen and Li, who are the first in their family to migrate to the UK from East Asia and are accomplished professionals in their own right. So today they're here to share their insights, challenges and triumphs. Welcome, ladies. Thank you so much for joining us, don't forget. Thank you for having us. We haven't had this topic on the podcast before, so I'm pleased that you've come on to have a chat with us about it and share your experiences. But can we kick off with a little bit of background about each of you, please, to set the tone for our ladies and set the scene? Lee, should we start with you? Can we hear a little bit about you first, please?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, my name is Lee. I am a business consultant at Zoka at the moment, specialising in service and experience design. I moved to the UK 16 years ago from the mainland China after completing my master's, and so I was kind of really proudly 100 made in china and later developed my career path in the uk in such a thriving environment, and so I always wanted to be designed and I in love technology. This is very exciting. It's kind of taking me to a future looking view. Um, I'm just really enjoying working with people and crafting something you know people can use. Um, uh, you know, to make a life better. Really, I think that that's the um, the wish to be a good designer yeah, and you said you moved here after your master's.
Speaker 1:What did you study?
Speaker 3:I started design education and was that?
Speaker 1:something that was always, always something that you wanted to do as a child, or did somebody encourage you at school?
Speaker 3:I didn't enjoy design education because I was not patient enough and but it's kind of something about visualization, design, crafting things, is always, uh, what I I was really into. I actually was, um, from 80 years old. I started trained as an artist kind of, because I was good at drawing, doodling, so my path was set up to be an artist. But I went to through kind of training as an artist and working on graphic design. Then I realized that I was really into something new, something exciting, to move on to media. And when I moved over to the UK, iphone launched, you know, and that is where everything took off. Then I said, right, I want to get on it. And then I became a digital designer From then, never stopped. That's how I got what I'm here.
Speaker 1:You just said a load of words that people don't associate with technology as well Design art. Everything you said was very creative. So, um, you've got a really interesting background that I know our community are going to absolutely love. Um, from from just a few words that you said there, thank you, shen yourself. What about you? What's your background?
Speaker 2:um, I am a engagement manager. That's my job title currently at Zuka, which means people would don't know what that means. It means that I'm predominantly focused on account sales and the revenue growth of the account we have with our clients. I'm originally from Shanghai. I came to UK for my degree actually my master degree, but that was in linguistics, so have nothing to do with technology.
Speaker 2:I was those people who were my major was like semi, what was it? Sorry, simultaneous translation. So you see those meetings, people sitting in the booth somewhere like whispering to your ears. That was my job, but I didn't like the fact that it's probably mostly freelancing and so you don't have a steady income into a bank account. I felt like that was probably important and also I was I would just be regurgitating other people's opinion that I would never be able to have my own voice, so to speak. So, um, yeah, I was one of those people who came to the UK to do a degree, thought, well, have a couple of years work experience but end up never leaving, and that was 16 years ago. So, yeah, my experience was predominantly in actually delivery space and so after I graduated, coincidentally I started working for a SEO, ppc, so like a search marketing agency, and then I moved the role into actually digital project management in public sector, and then I also worked in startups and other consultancies before I landed my role in Zuka.
Speaker 1:Amazing. So our community absolutely loves to hear stories of ladies that perhaps didn't choose technology and fell into technology and it sounds like that was kind of your route as well, and ladies that kind of choose that career path a little bit later on and that they're still really successful and it's something that you can choose little bit later on and that they they're still really successful and it's something that you can, you know, choose later in your career and still land a really good company. Um, what so? What happened when you were doing seo? What? What happened there between there and landing your role now did somebody kind of push you more into the tech industry in that direction or what? What kind of happened in between that role and this?
Speaker 2:role. I think one element is why, during my first job, there were some technical things I needed to do, just because there's nobody else to do it in the company. So I had to fiddle around with certain files or you know how to learn regular expressions, how to learn how to manipulate, say, css, html, but it's not all those things that kind of because there is something has to happen. So you kind of got left with it. So you kind of got left with it. But what I really changed the role is just because I felt I couldn't see myself doing this forever in the agency and in the role I was doing and I felt I was stuck mentally and also physically. So I moved into.
Speaker 2:I was just looking at what other roles is actually there and then at the time I was looking for something quite different. And then the job I ended up doing afterwards is in the digital department of a public sector organisation. I actually needed to take a pay cut, move to another city, but it was an informed decision I was making because I just wanted to do something different completely. Um, but it was, it was paying off, I would say. Um, it got me to expose a kind of a more deepening to technology and wanted to do things I wanted to do now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely. I take it, not a decision. You look back on and think I shouldn't have done that. It seems to have worked well for you, so brilliant ladies. You both have really interesting backgrounds and we have lots to cover off today, so I wanted to get going with. Can you share some of your personal experiences as a first-generation immigrant and a woman in the workplace? Lee, should we start with you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, I think. As a first generation immigrant woman, my experience actually is all about learning how to live in other people's world. Put in a simple term, I think, particularly at a workplace. I think it requires us to really have all the senses, to switch it on all the time and, for example, to listen, to watch, to observe, to analyze and the laws of practice.
Speaker 3:Sometimes I kind of describe, you know the in the movie and I think it's the fifth element, the alien lady. You know, such as are learning how to fitting into the. You know the human environment to the community, what to how they speak and the move similar thing really. You know it's really to the. You know the human environment to the community, what to how they speak and the move similar thing really. You know it's really to observe. You know how people do things, how you know from the very subtle thing, from something to something very obvious, to just to learn and practice, and also in the workplace normally it requires um speed and precision.
Speaker 3:So the times and space to really practice, absorb, absorb and give it out is really really constrained.
Speaker 3:So it requires us really to have everything turned on to quickly be able to land our points well, and most of the time, actually, it's very fascinating.
Speaker 3:But when navigating through so many layers of differences we're talking about even in the same room, uh, in the meeting with others we have to go through, navigate through the layer of difference, of language, culture, upbringing, background, gender, profession, so people might not be aware how much we actually have to process, you know, to, to, to be able to contribute, and sometimes can be quite exhausting, but most of time it's fascinating. Um, but I, I think, um, luckily, I think, in a way, I kind of benefited from my profession as a designer and involved a lot of user research, so we're kind of, you know, really used to that kind of way of observing and learning human behavior and to be able to practice, uh, on the sport, and so I would say that it's the whole experience is just learn, learn to really learn and absorb, and, um, I find, and to find, um, the best ways I can communicate myself, yeah, um, yeah that's a really nice way of phrasing that.
Speaker 1:I've heard that before, having all your senses turned on at the same time. It sounds like a challenge, but also a good challenge and something that you have used in your work life as well, and just being more aware of that. So, yeah, only working to your advantage there. Working to your advantage there, yeah, and shen yourself. Can you share, um, some of your personal experiences as a first generation immigrant and a woman in the workplace?
Speaker 2:yeah, sure, of course. Um, I I think there was an element of I was quite lucky that the workplace I work in are predominantly quite international. So, uh, although I might be the only Asian person or only Chinese person there and there's other people in similar situations, so you can kind of find your own tribe somewhere. But there's also always a kind of a talking about personal experience. There's always a level of confidence thing needs to be built out. For example, like I just mentioned, I was coming.
Speaker 2:I come from a language background. I thought my English was good enough when I came. But then, you know, when I came to Yorkshire Leeds was the first place I went to Like I felt like I could hardly understand anybody, what they're saying. I asked for direction. The people just eventually gave up on me and he actually talked me there there, which was a really nice experience because people are super friendly.
Speaker 2:But I constantly get confused by little things, like people calling me love duck or pet, like slants. You never taught, never were taught like, yeah, that's confusing for anyone. So the simple things. And then you know when you enter the workplace um, at the time you know instant messaging, it wasn't so prominent. Now, like you, you have teams, you have we're talking about skype, age well prior to that.
Speaker 2:So a lot of times that I, I it took me a long time to build a confidence to pick up the phone, call my client call, my supplier, try to explain things to them, and it was for a long time. I was really struggling with that, like, even coming from a language background, I thought I should be confident in it. So I think that's something gradually and then you're translating to like in the meetings do I share? Share my opinions? Do I say what I want to say or do I what? Should I behave in certain situations and do people really hear me? Do I make myself clear?
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of kind of communication challenge probably will not come quite naturally with native speaker. They never needed to double think whether they got understood, uh, whether they have made themselves clear for, in general senses or, um, the nuances of sarcasm, the nuances of hints, did people agree on it not, or disagree in the meetings? All those tiny little things. Um, I think at the beginning of the career it was just like quite overwhelming for me. But you know, time is a wonderful thing, that you know. Eventually it heals and make you forget a lot, of a lot of things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you think as well, if you had been at the wrong company, you might not have found your confidence so quickly? It sounds like that. You know you've been on a journey where you at least felt supported and inclusive, so and as you said, you found your tribe and that kind of helped working at international companies as well. Do you think perhaps if you'd landed at the wrong company then you wouldn't have felt so supported? It's very important to pick the right company, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I think I I wouldn't say I never had that experience. I once worked for organization was very local. Uh, by local I mean people work there predominantly come from Manchester or surrounding area. You can hear people from Wigan or uh that that even they themselves have like little tribes, like where they come from, and I feel like that is I wouldn't say that's the wrong company, but it's just becoming more challenging because you feel more excluded from this. A lot of reference, they would have a lot of just life experience. They would have it, they would have all the things they talk about. It's not natural for a person like myself to join or contribute or add value to the conversation. Um, but it's. It's wonderful to listen to them, to just get to understand and get to understand like what's actually going on in local people's life. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:Can I just add one thing to what shen was saying? I totally agree in terms and in the right company to have the environment and and also um and to to have the the same mindset and to do that because I walked in small companies before and I was the only one of people from local that just it's very challenging. And I want to add also technology also provided advantage as well, because I think the technology is a new language. It was not written before. You kind of break down laws of either you come from this area, you have this language, or you have not. It's a new language In a way. I find in the tech space, talk about technology it's actually a lot easier when you're talking to people from any sort of background. So that's why I think tech company actually is a good opportunity for ethnic minority. Uh, you know a group, you know it's a new language.
Speaker 1:It breaks down lots of barrier, sorry yeah, and an advantage for a team in technology to be from different backgrounds and have different experiences and and to learn from each other, because they're absolutely right in. In technology, it really does break down barriers and you can to learn from each other, because you're absolutely right in technology, it really does break down barriers and you can only learn from each other and move forward as a company if you have a diverse team that has lots of different thoughts and ideas from different backgrounds. So, yeah, I definitely agree on the topic of technology being an advantage there from people from different backgrounds. Talking of backgrounds, I want you to dig into a little bit about cultural backgrounds. So how have your cultural backgrounds and upbringing influenced your approach to work, to work and interactions with your colleagues? Lee, should we start with you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, and I come from a background actually education was the only way I can really kind of change my life. So I was kind of encouraged very early age to kind of dare to dream and dream big and never give up. So kind of I, when I was young I was the one always passionate about I thought never give up, I want to dream as big as I can. Even I came from nowhere and so that kind of led me lyrically led to me to where I am now. Um, but I I think that I'm taking that kind of confidence to the work I can really see um. That set me um probably slightly different.
Speaker 3:Uh, in a certain settings it's I'm always kind of the one who's more kind of future looking. I'm not afraid of stepping into kind of uncertainty and unknowns, always excited about um if I'm going to capture something from nowhere. That's kind of space I love and so I think that's that's kind of influence, um, you know, on me, uh, with my background, especially coming from another culture, when you know you can make your life from another culture to a new culture, you put on a boost of confidence. I can do lots of other things, because that's this already big challenge yourself right. And, um, I think my, my Chinese background um sorry, I just wanted to mention is, I think, and also the journey along and I I do feel really grateful for all the companies I work with, such as Zorka, and all the people, people who have helped me along the way.
Speaker 3:So that makes me kind of really appreciate when I'm in a multi-coaching environment and similar colleagues. They have the ego, wanted to learn. I'm kind of always happy to coach and help. The other part, I think, is my background. Typical Chinese background has shaped me more in diligence and putting group above individual and being righteous, although sometimes that can be misunderstood or it's a stereotype I have to overcome. I'm sure Shem feels the same, but I think overall, I think it does make us in a way, quite easy to fit into the environment, but we focus a lot on how integrated with the rest of the team, with the culture, um, yeah, that's what I can think of. What about you, shen?
Speaker 2:It's interesting. You said follow your dreams. I think it's just. It just tells like, even so, in my household my parents will be the people say like, if you follow your dreams, that's how you become homeless.
Speaker 2:Uh, because that you know, it's true it's very true, yeah it's just that it just shows like even like we are very kind of a 3d person. Everybody of everyone, every one single person, woman or asian woman, we are all individual 3d people. We have, like different dimensions, like even us. We're not the same. We don't have the same upbringings etc. Um, I I think I came from very, very traditional like.
Speaker 2:The expectation was like be good, um, be obedient, or follow the rules, um, behave um, you know, just be be a good student and kind of. This is kind of the, the framework I grew up in. Doing a good job is expected. It's more. It's more stick instead of carrots, which also impose a challenge when you work in them. Well, when I work in the in the uk, you know, in the western culture is there's a lot of encouragement. You know, when I become a parent myself, I get a lot of encouragement. It's more about carrot instead of stick.
Speaker 2:You need to say thank you for people doing their job. At the beginning, it was quite confusing for me. Why am I thanking a person for doing what they need to do? It takes me a long time to learn the art of compliment as well, like how to say it genuinely. I don't want to come across as contrived, but it's all quite interesting. That and also like how to, how to challenge things, how to challenge authorities, because that's something not encouraged when I grew up, in school or in the environment I was in. Being an outliner is something is really scary, um, but at work, you know, it's really important to express your disagreement effectively. It's really important to show a different opinion and people actually value that. The organization, the company you work to get more value because the more diverse point of view there are. So it is very, very different from what I have brought up here. So these are our new skills. You have to learn gradually while working in the in a company in the UK.
Speaker 1:Jen, you, you were talking there about um, you know, finding your voice and being okay to speak up, and then you mentioned, uh, that lovely confidence that you found, because it's kind of you know what, if I moved to the uk and I did that, then I could do anything. So you have both of you between you have this really lovely balance of confidence and all the skills that you learned when you got here as well. So, um, yeah, definitely, well, I can see what's alcohol obviously snapped you both up, but you come with, you know, lovely experience and life experience, um, as well, which is so, so valuable to a team which then you just said that you know, the um. Just having a diverse team is so, so valuable.
Speaker 2:I think I think also that there's an element of because I think majority of the East Asian or South Asian upbringing is about need to do a good job of what you're given to. Learning how to be a leader instead of just being a task taker is also something that it's a natural challenge comes into the career process at some point that we're learning, and for me it's interesting because the focus was at a certain point in my career I realized it's more important to be respected than to be liked. I need to stop worrying about upsetting people and saying things that people might make people unhappy about, especially when agreeing to kind of a more people management roles, and it is again. These are not all new skills that you know. People who probably grew up in the western education system are more accustomed to, but in at least from my own experience and upbringing, that it was something that I had to learn as an adult rather than being trained all my life to do yes, yeah, I totally agree with Shemi.
Speaker 3:I think that's the new new skill is, you know, really, how do we um, how do we really make our point across? And being objective and on the point, and and accepting the fact that my um, you know, um in the chinese turn of breaking the harmony, which is harmony is very important and that um, that is a challenge we have to overcome and also that comes with touch, the subtleness of um or english environmental language. Sometimes you just don't know I'm doing too much, I'm not doing enough. So you might be constantly have a have like a spectrum you're testing right is am I, am I get to the point, am I practice my new skills or am I um in the right spectrum that I'm still respecting people and mentoring a relationship, or am I doing too much?
Speaker 3:People, my thinking I'm not being honest because it's a tough situation, I'm not expecting you to really happy and keeping the harmony. So I think this is like a spectrum. You had to finally find the sweet spot for me. I haven't cracked it yet. I'm constantly figuring out where that should be, but that really resonates well. Shem is saying that that's a new skill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good to hear You're always learning. I suppose so that is a great lead into navigating those challenges, because I wanted to ask you both a little bit about. You know, how do you navigate certain challenges and what are some common stereotypes or misconceptions that you have encountered in your professional journey and how have you navigated them?
Speaker 2:I think I read some articles about especially women from, maybe, asian countries I think there's a or men as well, but there is a phrase called the model, a model immigrant, so, which means that people who are really be seen as perceived as really hard working, very diligent, uh, they will be able to, you know, give them something. They're very good at execution, they're very good at doing things, making things done, but then the challenge is that the representation on the senior leadership, on the company boards, are probably much, much lower, because a lot of people will see Asian women as a very good doer, but not necessarily a great leader. But not necessarily a great leader. I'm not saying that's right or not my opinion, but I think that's probably one of the stereotypes that we're not very good at saying no, we're not very good at asking for things, you know, asking for pay rise, asking for something which we might hesitate to ask or other people might find it very easy to reach. I think, being women under an ethnic minority at this intersection, it's even more so for us. I think that's probably one of the big stereotypes there is, which I think there is definitely a certain truth to it, that I do see a lot of my friends who are also Asian women or Chinese women who are struggling with it, like how to ask for things where they think they deserve at workplace, and how to do certain things. One of the eureka moments I realized a long time ago was that if I get rejected, the situation just won't be as bad as it is right now. So there's always something to gain there by just working on the boundary a bit and just trying to step over. But to be brave is actually a very big ask for people and also, um, I do find it's very challenging that I think for Asian women for myself, I can speak only from my personal experience so there's a lot of thinking and internal thinking happening about how things might play out or things might happen before we even do anything, and the burden of this eventuality or the risk is so much will probably kind of stop us doing things. Um, so this is something I think that this is a challenge I still face nowadays. I would, I would believe I got better at it, but it's still something happens.
Speaker 2:I think another stereotype is about we see Asian women as being very productive, like I said, like we're very good at execution. We do things really well and a lot of challenge people were facing will be we feel like we work so hard but we don't get the recognition we have. And then we realize there's other playbook happening at workplace. It's about influencing other people, about networking. It's actually not. It's about smart working rather than hard working. It's actually about being effective rather than being productive. So this is something that's also, um, I think, not saying asian women are not effective, but I think it's the stereotype to put on. People say, okay, we can give them any work, they were going to do it well, but then if you want something kind of a more impactful or bigger skills or out of the comfort zone, they might not be your go-to people, but I would. I would kind of challenge people, hold that belief that actually try us. We were probably surprised yes, definitely Lee.
Speaker 1:I can see you nodding and agreeing. Is that I loved everything that Shanda said there. I think is that something that you have experienced yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. But I think I have to say Shem definitely has deeper thoughts than me. Actually I'm learning from her. I think from my experience we'll share some. Looking at the stereotypes and she touched a few as hardworking but not seeing, as working smartly right and don't seem to know how to express what we want. I feel that as well.
Speaker 3:But I think the many stereotypes and actually I think misunderstanding or not just not aware of the difference, I don't think it's people's fault, right, I think it's just, you know, not everybody in life is involved with ethnic minority people around. So I discuss a lot with my husband, I think similar to Shannon, my husband is of white English, so I actually made a lot of things make me very conscious about and look at myself from a different perspective, and I think to be able to understand those stereotypes it really needs feedback. That's why I'm finding extremely helpful at workplace to develop your allies and to find a few people. They kind of genuinely interested in you and support you and you can be open about your feelings. So something is not quite right and I don't know how to put it, and they will help you to create that consciousness. It's because you are thinking this way. That's what I think. So in that moment you realize it's okay. This is a difference where thinking there's a stereotype there and so yeah. So I think I'm finding this is the tough learning curve is really about um, um, just to be really aware of what is out there. I think sometimes it's harder If you don't know. You don't know. That's the hardest situation, right, and you don't know when people might have really mistaken you for something else or you just don't know. That's why I need those very friendly feedback. So that's why I always treasure people at work. I constantly look out wherever I go, especially at workplace. People are generally over-minded, they're interested in different things, embrace difference and they seem to look beyond.
Speaker 3:I would say that they wouldn't be so fussy about I may say the wrong word and not have a good accent. I made some basic spelling mistakes. They're not the person who will pick on those. They will be the one straight to really interesting. What's the point? Good accent and made some basic spelling mistakes. They're not the person will pick on those. They will be the one straight to really interesting. What's the point trying to make? And help me get that.
Speaker 1:I think they are the people really help you to be aware of that and those um um stereotypes, and to find a way on being understood yeah, definitely, and and they are the companies that have really put a lot of work into that as well and that you didn't just, you know, find yourself within a company that was just put together that way, that, you know, workforce was built with a lot of care and attention to ensure that you know people from lots of different backgrounds and that they are respectful of people from lots of different backgrounds as well. And I'm sure lots of people might have come through and thought, actually, you know what they. They just don't fit in here and they, you know, you need to be an, by the sounds of it, somebody that is very inclusive and wants to work on a diverse team. So, yeah, that's I don't think we say this a lot on here um, but it's not something that is built overnight. That is something that takes a lot of care and attention from a company to achieve that.
Speaker 1:Um, so employees do feel welcomed and feel like they want to stay as well, so they can hold on to really good talent like yourselves, um, instead of feeling like, actually, this isn't a place where I would like to stay and I would actually like to work and you know, you don't, um, get on with your team say I mean um, lee, you spoke about your team there, um, as if you really love, you know your team and you love going to work every day and that feeling of it's a feeling that you go to work and feel um like you want to go back the next day. You know that again takes um a lot of work from everybody. Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1:I agree. I want to talk to you a little bit about um cultural awareness. So what role do you believe cultural awareness and sensitivity play in fostering inclusivity within your organizations? Um Shen, shall we go to you first?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, I actually believe it passed the time that people, women or ethnic minority needs to lean in. Uh, it's, we passed the time like we have to do the hard work. I feel the organization should actually be in the driver's seat and actually make things easier. It's the typical nudge behavior, like when you make things more convenient and more right there, people are more likely to do it. Um, so I do feel like that the role companies need to play is actually setting a good example, and I actually caught a lot of things there.
Speaker 2:Rather than ask women or ask as an in-marriage or ask any type of marriage to people to change themselves in order to fit in the, the framework or the policy they have, or change themselves because, like you said earlier, kayleigh, it's it's more about you know, how do you find a sense of belonging in the organization? Is that you feel you can be more of yourself or the better? The best, best version of yourself in a organization is that you feel you can be more of yourself or the better. The best, best version of yourself in a difficult situation at workplace a lot of times is you know that that that's the place you tend to stay yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:Um, I love that. You just said that we talk about that regularly on here, about bringing your authentic self to work. And if you don't feel like you're bringing you, you can't do your best work every day. And you don't feel like you're bringing you, you can't do your best work every day. And also your team knows that you're not being yourself and that you're not bringing your best self and doing your best work. So you're right, finding that place where you can be authentic and not judged for anything really makes such a difference in your day to day and your career and, obviously, your professional development. So development, so you're right, it's finding that, that not even a safe space, just just a place that gets you and embraces you and encourages you to be yourself every, every single day. I completely agree with that. Um, lee, do you agree with that? And what? What role do you believe cultural awareness and sensitivity play in fostering inclusivity in an organization?
Speaker 3:yeah, I, I totally agree what you said well said, and I think that's where kind of really inclusivity really starts. You know to be, have them, have that as as a culture, as a norm. You know you't be yourself and then the people are different, so you don't have one stereotype, you might have many. Then you start, forget about one stereotype, you have to fit in. You say, never mind, too many, I can't fit into, I might just be myself because everyone is one, and so I feel that kind of really starts. That's why, um, I, I personally I feel much more comfortable in the environment such like silken now is you know, um, there's so many differences and talking about diversity is a topic you can just openly talking about it.
Speaker 3:You don't feel any kind of pressure or anything. I think that's a good sign is, um, you can be yourself, and I even heard many colleagues going in the meeting would say, oh, sorry about these mistakes, I'm English in my first language, but please focus on my point. You don't really get to say people have the confidence even being vulnerable, but really confidence about what their unique value. I think that's a good sign, because I've been in quite a few more kind of local companies and the mindset to be able to admit that. That is a big step, because sometimes that would be something you're so exposed and that shows your weakness straight away. So I see that's a sign you can just be yourself.
Speaker 1:That is, um, that's where it all starts yes, and while they hire you as well, you know companies are looking for you to be yourself and bring your unique self, and and especially as a woman. So many ladies on here they say I went into technology and I had very masculine managers or I had a very male-dominated team and I almost felt like I couldn't be myself. And then I realized actually they were just looking for me to be my feminine self, bring all of my skills that come with everything with being a woman and the advantage of that. And they said it took them years in their career to figure out that actually just being myself was was an advantage to me in the workplace, rather than feeling like I'm always having to suppress something and you know, kind of not just does not be myself every day in the workplace. Um, so I completely agree on that, lee. Um, how important do you think it is for companies to actively address diversity and inclusion, and what steps can they take to create more supportive environments? And, shane, should we start with you?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, I I think I use running as an analogy, like how far you can run is not determined on the big things you you do, but more on the kind of small things you do, like how you control breathing, how you control postures, and it's a constant thing. It's the annoying little things you always have to look out for. So I would say how, how, how, how well a company can develop and be seen as progressive or truly be progressive is are the little things they can do. I know about the big things, so by little things I'm talking about, um, you know, like you, like we mentioned earlier, like make, cultivate an environment that make people heard. You know how you organize your meeting. Is it always a round table or is it always like the loudest the person getting heard, or people always opinionated gets the the floor, or do you try to learn some different ways, like liberating structures, like making sure everybody had a chance of voicing or participating, and it's about and showing up on things.
Speaker 2:For example, a lot of companies have awareness trainings or even just talks on certain days of the year. Uh, you know, for example, if you have your male leadership showing up on your menopause awareness things. Um, on the sexual harassment, training, all those things. It means something right, it takes an interest in and people can see that because, you know, all women will go through menopause at some point. You, you, everybody have to deal with a, a menopausal colleague or interact with at some point. So it's it's not just something women needs to be aware, but also the male colleagues. So these are the tiny little things that people, people need to show interest and to to be present.
Speaker 2:Um, the other things is like I said earlier, about having things there rather than us having people ask for it.
Speaker 2:So, for example, you know this, there's a quite popular topic in the uk about, you know, uh, the paternity policy needs to be as much as the uh, the maternity policies, etc.
Speaker 2:You know it's a great place because you'll have um, uh baked in or already there, like the compressed hours, like I myself are doing, compressed hours or flexible working arrangement, the things that it's readily available rather than people have to go through hurdles and fight for it. But also like another tiny small thing is I love talking to my male colleagues and female colleagues about their caregiving responsibilities. You know it shouldn't just be women talking about their family and their children or whatever the, the challenge they have in life outside workplace. I love talk, hearing my colleagues talking about. They probably have the issues and and the things that it makes you feel much more included in the in the space as well. And if people who are not native English speakers, you know, I always like to have those conversations with them about their experience as well, because a lot of us are not that dissimilar to each other in terms of our experience.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that.
Speaker 1:I love the fact that you mentioned it being from top down as well, and and and even I suppose an example there would be you went on to talk a little bit about your male colleagues and their care and responsibilities.
Speaker 1:If you see a male leader that is disappearing at a certain time because they go, need to go and do a school run, that kind of trickles through to the rest of the company. They kind of think you know what, that's okay and that is you know okay to disappear and do that. And I set that boundary that at that time I go and pick up my children, whether you're male or female, and then you might be back online later or however you work. But that is something that does come from leadership and you're so, so important that so, so, right there that when you said leadership, showing up for those training sessions and being involved in those things that kind of you know just lets the workforce know that you're not just ticking a box sometimes and that's it, but actually it's something that your leadership team live and breathe every day really really makes a difference to people's day-to-day lives at work definitely.
Speaker 2:I think the hybrid working now is quite interesting because during COVID we probably met every, we probably had a scan through everybody's interior design. We probably met everybody's family, all their children and their pets at some point. Yeah, you know, you know, ceo. You know, I think we're quite, we were quite fortunate in, you know, zuka UK. Our CEO is a woman who has young children. It's something like you feel you can really relate to A lot of our colleagues. As a woman, as a mother, is something I feel like okay, it is not something impossible. If they can do it, I can do it. But also occasionally our male colleagues there's children just show up on camera. From time to time it felt like okay, it's normal, it's okay, you know, I don't need to worry about it's all right.
Speaker 1:Yes, I agree that was um. It's quite an experience as well, getting a little insight into everybody's lives, but it did make everybody feel a bit more like you know it's not just me, or it's not just me that might be having challenges, um in certain areas, and that that's okay to you know. Let that um bleed into work occasionally and that you're not going to be judged for it at work either. Um lee yourself. How important do you think it is for companies to actively address diversity and inclusion? What steps can they take to create a more supportive environment?
Speaker 3:um. I think it's really crucial nowadays, and considering um, every company is thinking about to attract and retain the best of talents they can in the market and, with technology, break down the barrier.
Speaker 3:You literally you can work from anywhere um for that flexibility, um, so, um, I do believe the number does matter and um, it's for gender differences or culture differences, I think, either in the team or in the leadership. I think that when a minority is no longer a minority, that's shipped to the norm and so that makes the kind of diversity inclusion. It's just not a concept, it actually is an action, right? So when you have, for example, um, when you, when you, if you are the only woman and or ethnic man or woman in in the, in the group, a male group, and naturally conversation will walk towards, uh, male topics is sometimes not even probably be the conscious we do now. It just naturally even the same. If a group of ladies and only one man, the conversation was very different. So I think it's important to add a half, a balanced number, which it doesn't matter, set up the balance, um.
Speaker 3:And the second I think I feel a company needs to be, um, actually open the door more for ethnic minority and ethnic minority women. Just considering we are still going through the changes and there's still a lot to do. That means any promotion criteria or career change criteria could be already being biased. So that means the ethnic minority woman is already far behind even at this consideration stage. I think extra effort actually to keep the door wide open provide more opportunities.
Speaker 3:It would just, you know, balancing out, putting everybody at a similar starting line, out, putting everybody at a similar starting line, um, but I, I can, I see the difference um, after pandemic and uh, in in, in the company in zulcan now is, you know, we were openly talking about, um, what we're doing and the differences, and and I, I think I would say it's the first company I worked with I can be so open, I'll just be myself, um, I think that's a really good sign, um, but I just, I feel, you know, that's just part of the beginning of it. There's still a lot to do, um, um, to really um, make the change, not just for Zorka I think Zorka's been well and I think the whole environment and to really bring the best out of everyone yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:I love the fact you talked about opening a door there as well and breaking down those um, it's unconscious biases. I think that ties into having people on the hiring panel as well that you can relate to. So when you do go there are people there that you think you know what that person reminds me of them, or it seems like it's going to be a very inclusive environment. And then when, when that happens, you know now you naturally start to build more of an inclusive environment. People from lots of different backgrounds want to come on board as well, because it does work both ways. When you're getting an interview and sometimes you think maybe this isn't for me actually and I went for the interview and I don't want to work there. So if you see more people that you can relate to at that stage, then you think, yes, I would love to to go and work for that company.
Speaker 3:Um and actually just go back to interview part. It reminds me actually this is when we get into you get hired. You're reminding me actually when I run an interview with for for clients. But because we design things, we're running interview clients, because sometimes I was the owning non-white interviewer interviewer in in the meeting and if the we actually enter, walk with very diverse user groups, sometimes I could feel the straight warmth coming from them seeing me there. That's this, oh, okay, actually you know people feel close, um, so to accepting us, appreciate as a kind of a quite diverse, uh, you know, our team to do things for them. That's already paying back. So that's why I I truly believe you know, when we have very diverse teams and the results to diverse contribution to the society and that's the moment to actually really expand our impact. But I think first one, we need to get the tangible people in there first.
Speaker 1:Right, yes, definitely, and then it benefits everybody in the long run. Ladies, we're almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you one last question, and you've both already provided a lot of brilliant advice throughout this, but what advice would you give to other ethnic minority women who are navigating similar challenges in their career? Um, shane, should we start with you, sure? Um?
Speaker 2:I would say the most important thing is that there are a lot of good resources out there. I'm a podcast person, so there are a lot of good podcasts, like the HBR's Women at Work podcast, the Squidly Clear podcast. They offer very tangible things of being a woman, how you can navigate your work challenges, and there's a practical guide there, guide there, but for me it's more important, the best resources actually is the people surrounding you. So I would say, uh, join, join a network or join a tribe, but if, if it doesn't exist at work, your workplace, start one.
Speaker 2:And so I am part of a uh organization, non-profit association called a chinese woman in the city, and then this is something that we, we, I I found a few years back and there's a lot of things we discovered that actually my problem is not only my. A lot of people were sharing similar issues. Uh, there's a platform for people almost like to share your experiences as the advice in a very, like you said, a very safe place. People who are having you don't have to explain the basics, explain the context again. People already got that. So that's something is quite valuable, and so I would encourage everybody either join a join, join a group or create one themselves. Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Those, if you don't have one, start one, why not? I mean just to help other ladies and and you're at to hear the more, the more people that share that. We're, all you know, feeling the same things, that you're having similar thoughts to people um other people as well. It's just, you know, the more that people hear that, the more that it helps other people move into their next role and to excel into that role. So, yeah, that's brilliant advice to join one or start one, and I do like the idea of starting one. It's really good advice, lee yourself.
Speaker 3:I would really like to share I think it's one of the things I have been practicing I'm still learning is really to let go certain imperfection, just accepting we're not going to be the same as a native speaker, that's fine, we can own that. But I think the key is to really have a point and really own it. This is coming often. Many painful experiences like, for example, I would prepare a deck and go to a PowerPoint presentation, go to CEO, and it turns out I spent two days working on it and then I get picked on my spelling is not right and this is not quite right, totally missing the point, and it's really dreadful. So after experiencing all of that many times, I come to the point.
Speaker 3:I would advise anyone just accepting that but really challenge yourself to look beyond. Accepting that, but really challenge yourself to look beyond. And you know, I just just focus on what's the point, that the point I'm trying to make. And I think that's what I have really learned the most. And I would really give an advice to some of my team members when they know native speakers and they're facing the challenge and they worry about certain things. I just said you know what? What's the point if you have got a point straight to that and just challenge people to look beyond. And it's hard to do, as I said, but I think that has I had. I have my aha moment, had my aha moment quite late. I think would be useful for others to have that moment earlier. Would make their life a lot easier yes, yes, that's really good advice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're right just to embrace you and to, to you know, think that that's okay and to also, um empathize with other people if you see that in other people. Um, but again, another brilliant um advantage that that you bring to a workforce and all the? Um incredible skills that both of you have built up from your experiences and backgrounds and that you will bring into your professional development and your day-to-day um at your company. So, um, ladies, I could keep talking to you on this subject for several more hours. Um, it's been so interesting chatting with you both, so thank you so much to shen and lee for coming on here and having a chat with us today. It's been so interesting chatting with you both, so thank you so much to Shen and Lee for coming on here and having a chat with us today. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much for having us. Thank you.
Speaker 1:And to everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
