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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Embracing authenticity: Redefining success in tech
Join us for an insightful conversation with Seda Kunda, a Mobile Engineer at Zuhlke, as we delve into her unconventional career journey. In this episode, Seda shares her story of self-discovery and empowerment, highlighting her choice to pursue a path as an individual contributor rather than conforming to traditional leadership expectations.
From bonding with her father over coding as a child to studying Computer Science and becoming a Software Engineer, Seda's journey has been marked by pivotal moments of realization.
Embracing her unique strengths and passions, she has discovered a newfound confidence and ability to make a meaningful impact within her teams. Tune in as we explore Seda's journey of embracing authenticity, celebrating victories, and redefining success on her own terms.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing Embracing Authenticity Redefining Success in Tech with Seda Kundal of Zulka. I've got the incredible Seda, who is a mobile engineer at Zulka and she's here today to dive into her unconventional career journey of self-discovery and empowerment. She's going to highlight her choice to pursue a path as an individual contributor rather than conforming to a traditional leadership expectation. Welcome, it's a pleasure to have you with us.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Kayleigh. I'm really glad to be here, really glad to share my thoughts and my journey.
Speaker 1:Amazing. I know you have a very interesting story and our ladies are going to love to hear all about it. So can we get started with a bit of context for our ladies who you are, where you come from and how you landed in the tech industry, a little bit about your journey and what sparked your interest in coding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I am from Zambia. I was born and raised in zambia, um, and I'm a very much uh, daddy's girl self-proclaimed daddy's girl. I was from a young age and, um, he was in tech he's still in tech, actually um, so my interest and love for tech kind of stemmed from that. It's kind of like our little secret language, you know, because my sisters and my mom they both they're like the typical I can't do the simplest thing, especially my mom, and so it was kind of like our little secret language. You know me as, um, you know, creating websites or like just going through code together, it was just something we really loved doing together and I just loved the idea of creating something you can see in your hands. You like you create something and you just see the impact. It's, it was great. I just really loved doing that. Um, so that's, yeah, that's kind of how my interest started, through my dad.
Speaker 1:It's lovely to hear when somebody's inspired by, especially a family member that's that's working in that area, because so many of our ladies obviously, um, we, we love to hear what inspired them, and most of them say that they fell into tech, and it's always really nice when you hear somebody say a family member worked in technology and that, yeah, you saw that as that's going to be a really good career choice for me. Yeah, yeah, actually it doesn't sound like you thought of it as a career choice. You just thought you know what it looks like. My dad really loves that and I really love that, so that it sounds like it was quite a natural choice for you yeah, I mean, to me it was just like I have so much fun doing this, like why would I not do it?
Speaker 2:um, it's quite funny. You talk about falling into tech. I remember I wrote this little like in my diary about my dream goal when I was nine and it was to be a computer scientist. So it's like something that I just really loved from a young age and I knew it was something I wanted to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what about when it came to uh studying what? What did you study? What was your uh journey there? I take it it was quite natural for you to think I'm going to go down the tech path. Did you study? What was your uh journey there? I take it it was quite natural for you to think I'm going to go down the tech path. Did you take computer science? Well, what did you do there?
Speaker 2:yeah. So the journey was I get quite traditional. So I did go on to study computer science, which I'm glad I had my dad's support because I think outside of that a lot of people actually like don't go for that, it's a man's world. I had people like explicitly tell me that, um, and if it wasn't for him I think I may have been influenced by them, but he was like no just go for it.
Speaker 2:You love this, you're good at it, just go for it. Um so, yeah, I studied computer science in Leicester. Quite a traditional role, traditional path. I know some people start in like physics or law and then end up in you know software engineering roles, but mine was quite traditional, yeah it's nice to hear that you, you chose computer science as a good career, but so interesting that you said you just.
Speaker 1:You noticed as well that, um, if you hadn't have had your dad's support, perhaps you wouldn't have gone down that route. I take it your class? Were you the only female in the class? Were there were there a couple?
Speaker 2:there were not a couple. There was maybe, um, I want to say five from out of like a hundred. Oh, wow, um, and of those five there were two black, so me and someone else, um, two black women. So it was very. We were very, um, isolated. It drew us together a little bit and I think by the time we got to our third year there was about three women left.
Speaker 1:So um yeah yeah drop off yeah, even if you do get in and then you don't make it all the way to the end of your, your three years gosh.
Speaker 2:I will say, though I did. I pursued further studies. I did a software engineering master's degree, and in that class, in that course, there were way more women or not more women, but just way more women than the computer science degree. Um, so I'd hope, I'd like to think that means that things are getting better. Um, not just five out of a class of 100 yeah yeah how did you find it?
Speaker 1:when you left uni and you started looking for your first role, did you find that you know companies were looking to snap you up because you know you you few and far between between when it comes to women in tech. So how was that for you? Or did you also find you know a lot of us leave uni and it is quite difficult to secure your first role?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I found it really difficult initially. Yeah, I mean I had the added issue of I was kind of I wasn't really sure where I wanted to be. I was looking for a job in the UK, I was looking for a job in Zambia, but I knew that I specifically wanted a software engineering role and that was quite a difficult, that's quite a challenge. I think, um, I can't, I can't really say what the issue was, um, but yeah, I found it quite difficult to secure a role.
Speaker 2:yeah, and that's kind of what led me to pursuing further studies because, like maybe I need to, you know improve on those skills a bit more.
Speaker 1:Did you go on and then hone your skills in a certain area? I think a lot of us have that feeling when you leave university and you sort of. It's so difficult, it's such a competitive time of year as well and and you find yourself going on interviews and almost you know teaching yourself how to interview as well, and that takes time and yeah, and learning about myself and what I wanted.
Speaker 2:I think I think we'll talk a bit about that later today. But yeah, there's like I was kind of I was approaching interviews with ideas that I had put in my head of what I wanted or what success looked like, and I was kind of flowing from that rather than what I actually wanted. So I don't think I was being authentically me and maybe that had an influence on how I presented myself in interviews.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I love that you touched upon that, because today's conversation is about being authentic and sometimes figuring out what you want to do and not necessarily what you think other people want you to do. We've all had that feeling at work, and I know that you experienced kind of a bit of a pressure at first to pursue leadership roles quite early in your career. What were some of the factors that contributed to this expectation and how did you manage to navigate them?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think there was a number of things. I think I mean at the start of my career, when I would look at how to prepare for interviews, for instance, I would see you know the question of where do you see yourself in five years? I would always see things like, regardless of the role, right, you always see things like well, I see myself. You know the question of where do you see yourself in five years? I would always see things like, regardless of the role, right, you always see things like well, I see myself, you know, growing in my skills and then breaking into management and you know, contributing to the success of a company as a whole, like from a leadership. That was always the theme, um, it was cause I checked recently actually, um, just to see what the answers to this question look like now in 2024, and it's still like the same. So the same theme of leadership is that goal, um, so I think that was one of the things in preparation. Um, that is what was advertised as how to market yourself. You have to want that, and so I never really thought like, is that really what I want? But I wouldn't say that was the first time.
Speaker 2:I mean, when I think about women in general. Yeah, women tend to be celebrated when they're leaders, which is not always the case. In fact, it's not the case for men. Men will be celebrated both when they're leaders, but also when they make significant contributions it doesn't matter Whereas women it tends to be like she was the CEO of this and she was the leader of that. It's all about the titles, and I think they should be celebrated, but they should should be celebrated, but they should also be celebrated for their contributions, but anyway, yeah, so I just thought like I needed to be a leader to have impact, and like that was what the definition of success and greatness was that's such a good point.
Speaker 1:You are right that ladies seem to be celebrated when they do move up the career ladder, for instance, or it's obvious that they're running a big team, or whatever it may be. You mentioned, yes, like successful CEOs in tech, but there are lots of women at all stages of their career doing fantastic things and not necessarily have stepped into what you would call traditional leadership role, and also, you can be a leader in your own right as well. Um, it's almost um. So at she Can Code, we like to talk about people being leaders instead of managers, because there is a difference between somebody just leading by example, being fantastic at what they do and using their own initiative, rather than a manager who might just want to manage people and they might be really good at that, um, but they might also not be a great manager, or a great manager, a line manager as well. So, um, you, you are absolutely right, and there is that pressure almost sometimes.
Speaker 1:Um, we had this conversation on here, uh, recently about you almost reach a fork in in the road where you have to pick if you want to manage people or if you want to, as you say, be a really good contributor and be really good at what you're doing, and you always have to make that decision, because people are very unpredictable. Yeah, I want to manage people and look after people, and is that for me, um, and it's such good advice from you as well to say you know what? Am I being authentic if I do go down that traditional route of leadership? Um, and is that something I'm going?
Speaker 2:to be happy with yeah, I think it's important to really define what success looks like for you as an individual and not kind of go for what everyone else defines, how everyone else defines success, because I think you talked about the two different, like managing people and then being an individual contributor, but I think a lot of the times being a manager of people and just that word manager, leader that gives a lot of people the impression that that's success and that's like it's senior, it's success, but says who like? Yeah, why like? Why does that have to be the definition of success?
Speaker 1:I mean it's not.
Speaker 2:It's just a skill.
Speaker 1:Leadership is a skill, it's not an end point exactly, and even when it comes down to responsibility, it's having responsibility for people. But you might have far more responsibility working on a project or something that you're doing, the outcome of the project and your responsibility for it can actually, you know you could be far more advanced than your manager, who is looking, looking after people, um, and making sure, uh, that that the team is going in the right direction. So I absolutely agree, it's finding um, finding what works for you and, I suppose, trying to remove yourself from everybody else's expectations, um, as well. So you mentioned a few challenges challenges there, of kind of expectations and trying to find your own path. What are some other challenges that you've faced as a young woman engineer and how did they shape your perspective of career advancement? Have you found any challenges at being a woman in tech? Some ladies on here say they haven't as yet which is also nice to hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good, that's great to hear. I don't think that would be a popular experience. I think a lot of women would. I think it really depends.
Speaker 2:But for me, I think, because I'm quite soft-spoken, I'm very calm, quite introverted and shy sometimes and I always was I think I found that when I'm quite introverted and shy sometimes and I always was I think I found that when I'm working with teams, I find my voice is not really heard, especially large teams. I get people talking over me or just kind of dismissing what I'm saying. That's been my experience in the past and it kind of made me feel like I needed to be a leader for me to be heard. So that was another thing that did contribute to my perception that leadership was the ultimate goal. Yeah, yeah, that was definitely a challenge. But I think what has really changed or helped that? First of all, introspection for me. As I said, it made me really rethink how I define success for myself, one of the things that made me rethink that as a manager.
Speaker 2:Actually, I kind of told him about the things I had been experiencing and how I was struggling with, you know, having to be this a different person and she was like why do you have to change? You know, like why is it you who has to change? In this situation like this is your who you are. You know, you prefer to listen, you're an effective listener and you prefer you know. And it doesn't listen. You're an effective listener and you prefer you know. And it doesn't mean like escape, like running away from challenges, or running away from or not speaking up when you have things to say. Yeah, but it's just really being authentic about what who you are and embracing who you are and being in a safe environment that you feel you can be who you are, and not being afraid of not pursuing roles that you're just not interested in, that are not suitable to who you are. Yeah, I love that, that safe environment.
Speaker 1:Well, that's it again, that safe environment that is. It's so important to to work in, environment where you just feel like your, your team really gets you and you really get them and you can be yourself. That that is that I think that works both. It's you finding somewhere that really suits you and also landing yourself in a good company that really listens and really works to figure out you know how you tick and what you want to do.
Speaker 1:And I had a fantastic lady on here a few months ago and she said to me exactly what you just said why do you?
Speaker 1:Why, she said, said why did I feel like I had to change the way that I was?
Speaker 1:She gets very emotional about certain projects that she works on and she said if I get a little bit emotional about it in a meeting, it's because I just desperately care about that project and I desperately want it to go wrong.
Speaker 1:And she said at one point she had cried in a meeting because she desperately wanted a new feature added and she just knew that it was going to work. And she said and afterwards I thought to myself, should I have done that? Should I have got that passionate about it? And actually then she thought to herself and somebody had said to her you shouldn't change the way that you are or the way that you react to certain projects, because that's just that's who you are and we love that you bring that amount of passion to the team. Exactly the same with your manager had said you know, don't change who you are to feel like you have to fit into your team, like you have to fit into your team and fantastic that your team just kind of, you know, embrace you for who you are and all of the wonderful things that you bring to the team.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I suppose it's finding that safe environment yeah, a safe environment really makes all the difference.
Speaker 1:It's really really important?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I would say leave you wherever you are if you don't feel safe?
Speaker 1:Yes, and then when you do find that some good companies are really really good about retaining talent and ensuring that that environment, that people feel a certain way when they're in work and that they it is more than just starting a group and, you know, chucking a couple of questions in there and is everybody feel heard? It's actually how you feel every day and how you feel when you're in a meeting and whether or not you feel heard and respected. And that takes takes a lot from a company, but you know, the good ones manage to retain staff because of it, once managed to retain staff because of it. Can you share a pivotal moment or realization that led you to consider your career goals and aspirations? Is there something that you remember, a moment where you thought, yes, I know what my goals are?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this will go back a bit to my when I was still in the headspace of wanting to be a leader. I didn't really want to, but I would say that because that's what, that's what you say, that's the correct answer, that's that's how that's success, right? I want to be successful, so I want to be a leader. Um, and I was in an interview where I was asked that question which I talked about at the beginning where do you see yourself in five years? I gave my spiel. You know I want to grow in the company, grow into the break into the management team, you know, just lead direction of the company as a whole. I just gave my spiel and I remember the interviewer just being just saying but why, why would you want that? And the way he asked it was, it wasn't just like an interview question, it was like he was like legitimately shocked and almost like it was almost the look of like a disapproving look like why would you? Why, um? And I think I didn't really have a good answer. I didn't have any answer because I was in my head that was just the thing you go for. And so when I went home that day, I just really started to think about it and think about okay, what do I actually want? What is success? How do I define success, what is the definition of success and where do I actually want my career to go?
Speaker 2:Forget what everybody else thinks and I mean because you know society, the way society defines success and career journeys. It's never inclusive. It's never inclusive of, you know, women with families who might need to stop and take care of the kids full time or part time or whatever. It's never considerate of people with differences, economic backgrounds, like just all sorts of things. There's so many everybody's um background and situation. Current circumstances will define a different career goal. Um, and so that was kind of a, that was a really a real like aha moment. Um, really thinking, okay, how do I define success? Is leadership what I want and how do I? What is? What is my actual career goal? Yeah, that really made me think about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's very genuine as well too, and very, very humbling as well to try and look internally and figure out what you want to do instead of. As well, to try and look internally and figure out what what you want to do instead of um. We've had a discussion with our community recently about almost following the ego. You follow the ego and thinking I want the title of ceo or I want to head up this team, and it might be the the wrong time for you if you're, if you're a young leader, or it might just not be for you at all. So sometimes even wanting that job but stepping into it far too early when you're just not ready for it, it's almost that you're following the ego of I want the title but it's not going to go well, and you know it's not going to go well, or just something that you don't aspire to do in in the first place.
Speaker 1:There are some brilliant women in tech events and there are some fantastic speakers, but sometimes I have sat in the audience and I have looked at these amazing CEOs and execs and I thought I can't relate to those ladies and it is quite difficult to see yourself in that position and how you can get there's. It is so important to have not just women in leadership but role models the whole way along, and you know, right through from the pipeline all the way to the top, because it is hard sometimes to see yourself in those shoes and you think, actually, I'm, I'm actually never going to be in those shoes and I don't almost aspire to be yeah, and that's OK, yeah of a big tech company. That's not what I want to do, but how inspiring. You know, that lady has a fantastic journey. But, yeah, it's so important to have ladies at all levels doing brilliant things and to celebrate them as well, not just for being a leader, as you said, but being a contributor as well.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well, not just for being a leader, as you said, for being a contributor as well. Exactly, exactly, yeah, absolutely. Um, I wanted to ask you a little bit about those internal barriers, um, and and misconceptions how. How did you overcome them, um, those internal barriers and misconceptions that you had about leadership and success? You said a little bit that you, you went home from that interview that day and really kind of thought about what you wanted to do and success. You said a little bit that you, you went home from that interview that day and really kind of thought about what you wanted to do and where you wanted to go. Did you come up with a plan? Did you? Was that in your head? Did you? When did you go home? And actually you know, almost re-ask yourself that question where do I want to be in the next five years? How?
Speaker 2:did you move forward? I'm very much an over analyzer and a deep thinker, so I went home and I really just sat and thought about it and like kind of drew up what I wanted for myself and just really thought about that. Um, so that was kind of the first step. I think you know in your head and then when you go into the workforce it's very easy to then lose that again. And I think for me what has helped is where I am now, like I've got good allies here who will they know where my head is at. I'm vocal about that and they're okay with that. They're like that's fine.
Speaker 2:This is where you're at Like. Your goals are here. Let's align those with our goals here, and I think that's another thing that has really helped finding a place that I can feel safe to really pursue my own goals and not having to, you know, pretend to be someone else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, people can. People can see through that as well, can't they? You have some team leaders who you think you know what you're not being authentic, and then it's quite hard to trust that leader. So it's not always a case of whether you want to, whether it's good timing, it's just if your team can't quite trust that perhaps you know you're quite confident that you wanted to step into that role, then that's really hard. People can pick up on whether or not you're authentic, can't, can't know, and that's that's important in the workplace they can, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Especially when you meet somebody who is authentic, you can really tell the difference. Who's really um, who really wants to be in a certain role.
Speaker 1:You can really tell when somebody's like yeah, yeah, not in the same headspace yeah, exactly yeah, and I love that um at Zolka that they you mentioned there that they're very good at meeting you where you are as well what, what you want to do, and kind of just tapping into what you're really good at and where you would like to go, instead of being pushed in a certain direction, which sometimes is nice and you encourage that. It is sometimes nice to have that manager who says to you you know what, I'm really going to push you out of your comfort zone and I'm really going to, you know, push you to try something new, and that's that is great. But sometimes you're just standing there thinking this isn't for me, this isn't the right time, or I just have no intention of ever trying that. So thank you for that good intention, but it's sometimes not for me.
Speaker 1:I remember I did that with public speaking and I hated public speaking. I was that person. I was sent on a training course and somebody had to come with me in case I did a runner at lunch because I hated it. Had to come with me in case I did a runner at Lump because I hated it and it was just the wrong time and even though I had a fantastic manager, I've had a couple of managers who really tried to push me in that direction and was like this is for you, you should be telling your story. And, as great as that was, I was so nervous and it just was not the time for me to step forward and want to do it and in my heart I just kept thinking thank you for the encouragement, but there is absolutely no way you were going to get me on a stage to speak to people. So, um, yeah, sometimes it's, there's a balance, isn't there?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely. I think it's really helpful to have that safe environment to land like you know you have the safety of like you go and try. I'm going to push you, going to challenge you, but if this is something that is just it's not for you, you can come back. Um, yes, whereas I think there's places where it's like this is the only way, like this is the only route, this is the standard only route, and there's just no, there's no consideration for anything else or anyone else and, as I said, like people have so many, so many different backgrounds and so so many different stories, you can't just push everybody into one or into one specific route. So I do like the fact that, as a walker, I do get challenged to step outside of my comfort zone, but I also get encouraged in the places that I am strong and that I prefer to work in and it's okay for me to say no to things I'm not comfortable with. You know that's that really provides like emotional safety.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, because you want to feel like you're moving forward in your career, but sometimes not being kicked in the wrong direction that you really don't want to go in, because that will only cause you to leave eventually. This isn't for me. I'm gonna go, um, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, we are almost out of time. I wanted to ask you what advice would you give to other professionals who may be struggling with similar pressures and expectations in their careers?
Speaker 2:Good question. I think I would say two things. I would say, first of all, it's important to actually take the time and think and like, just actually think about what you actually want. Um, like, you have to think about your own values and your own goals and define your career based on that, because society will try to define it for you. You know, it will try to say this is the path. You have to do this by this age and do this by like, it will try to define it for you.
Speaker 2:And, as I said, it's not inclusive. The way the society defines success is just not inclusive. And so you have to really look inward and look at yourself and what you actually want and try to define an authentic career goal based on that. And the second thing I would say is it's always really helpful to have good allies and so seek those out, whether that's like in the form of a career coach, whether it's in the form of, you know, a company that really supports the way like supports your goals, whatever that looks like it's really difficult, I would think. Yeah, I think it's really difficult to try to be authentic in your career if you've got only yourself and nobody else looking out for that. So yeah, just really try to pursue good allies who would support?
Speaker 1:that, yes, I agree and and allies in different, different places as well, a real mixture of internal company allies, external, as you said, coaches absolutely brilliant and you take snippets from each of them and then build your own authentic self, instead of going along with somebody else's story or looking at them and thinking you know maybe and that's the other thing today that there are so many fantastic stories on social media and that's great. We should be celebrating the women that are stepping into leadership roles and doing fantastic things but it can have the opposite effect on some of us, where we might think am I failing? Why am I not there exactly so to get that um, to get that advice from lots of different avenues, to then piece together your story? Your authentic self is so important um to to find little snippets from people that are doing well and and really running with your own um authentic path is so, so important and such brilliant advice to offer to our ladies.
Speaker 1:Seda, we are out of time. You have clearly found your authentic path at Zolka and thank you so much for coming along and having a chat with us and sharing your story today. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, kayleigh, I've had a really good time.
Speaker 1:The time just flew by. I know We'll have to have you back to talk about some more about your journey, um so everybody listening as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.
