In this episode, we delve into the extraordinary journey of Linda Scott, Business Development Director at Zuhlke, who went from the hospitality industry to the forefront of Scotland's tech leadership scene. Tune in to hear Linda share her key lessons and wisdom gained from a career that defies convention and embraces possibility.
With over 15 years of leadership experience, Linda's career defies convention. From starting a catering business at 16 to orchestrating a revolution in the Scottish Chamber of Commerce, Linda's story is one of audacity, resilience, and unwavering determination.
Join us as Linda shares her insights on building trust, cultivating relationships, and embracing change. Discover how she transformed the traditional networking paradigm and became the "queen of networking" by prioritizing genuine connections over transactions.
Learn from her invaluable advice on leadership, from being a buffer between teams and higher hierarchies to fostering clear communication and setting boundaries.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
In this episode, we delve into the extraordinary journey of Linda Scott, Business Development Director at Zuhlke, who went from the hospitality industry to the forefront of Scotland's tech leadership scene. Tune in to hear Linda share her key lessons and wisdom gained from a career that defies convention and embraces possibility.
With over 15 years of leadership experience, Linda's career defies convention. From starting a catering business at 16 to orchestrating a revolution in the Scottish Chamber of Commerce, Linda's story is one of audacity, resilience, and unwavering determination.
Join us as Linda shares her insights on building trust, cultivating relationships, and embracing change. Discover how she transformed the traditional networking paradigm and became the "queen of networking" by prioritizing genuine connections over transactions.
Learn from her invaluable advice on leadership, from being a buffer between teams and higher hierarchies to fostering clear communication and setting boundaries.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today's episode is called From Catering to Code. We're going to delve into the extraordinary journey of Linda Scott, business Development Director at Zolka, who went from the hospitality industry to the forefront of Scotland's tech leadership scene. We're lucky enough to have her here today to share her key lessons and wisdoms gained from a career that defies convention and embraces possibility. Welcome, linda. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. It's quite exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you actually have one of the most interesting backgrounds I think we've had on this podcast, so I am excited to share it with our ladies today. I am excited to share it with our ladies today, so can we kick off to set the scene with a little bit of context about you and your background?
Speaker 2:how you got into tech, just to let our ladies know a little bit about you to get started, please. Well, this is probably quite a random story actually, because I pretty much did fall into tech or walk into tech. It wasn't planned. I'd always been interested in it and always, I suppose, interested in it for the reason as to what it could do. And when I started being interested in it it was you could tell it was the next big thing. So you can tell you how old I am. So, and you think you know I need to be involved in this because I've always been obsessed with business and what was going to be the next big thing in business. It wasn't quite so much my fascination with tech and other than it. All these things were going to be the next big thing in business. So how I got my, my first role in what I suppose you would call in a sort of technical environment, was starts with a really random story.
Speaker 2:Actually, I was speaking at a ladies um event and it was I think it was, it was a ladies tech event actually. So so women in the tech space, um, and I was talking about um women taking chances, and my story was around that I'd signed up to walk across the sahara desert, to do 100 miles across the sahara desert, um to raise money for cervical cancer, um, so, um, and there was a lady in the audience that came up to me afterwards and said what, what are you doing? Walking across the desert? So I was explaining to her what I was doing and why I was doing it and then she said, can, can I come? And I was like, well, yeah, if, if you would like to? Yes, absolutely so, um, it was. It was melinda matth Matthews, who had been hired to scale up CodeClan, which was an organization set up with government funding to train software developers and data analysis people.
Speaker 2:So we went across the Sahara Desert. We talked about many, many things, from giving birth to our career journeys, and I talked to her. She's much more experienced than me, you know, in the world of business and I talked about, you know, being interested in tech and wanting to get into tech and but also expanding corporate, because I'd been in the catering industry for about 25 to 26 years and I didn't know how to get into that space from from where? From where I was. I was actually the chamber of commerce by then then, but I thought that's where I want to stay. I don't want to run my own business anymore. I want to branch out into a world that everyone else has been in for 10, 20 years. So how do I get at the table at the level I want to be? So she said she would help me with that. But when we came out of the desert she said you want a job Because I need someone like you. We're kind of passion and drive to help me scale CodeClan.
Speaker 2:So that was that was the first move to move to CodeClan and I started to learn and understand the, the wording, the buzzwords. I mean I really really didn't know anything about it. So I ended up there for four and a half years and I can't code or anything. I've had to go to it and what I learned from coding was I'm definitely not any good at it. I didn't do any specific data courses, but I did learn to love data, using data, gathering data, and it just became a natural everyday life at CodeClan because of Melinda and the way she ran the business. So by default that became an interest and a passion.
Speaker 2:And then I went to the Zulka's office opening in Edinburgh. Again, I think I was invited along by Scottish government. I wasn't invited by them Went there, met them, liked them, thought wow, this is a really cool company and I'm really excited that they're coming to Scotland. Didn't think anything of it. I wanted to get them on board as a partner for CodeClan, actually, and hope that they would hire individuals from CodeClan. And then it kind of flipped on its head and they they asked if I'd be interested in applying for their business development director for Scotland. And, as they say, the rest is history and I'm. I'm here and it been, I think, the best move I've ever made. So I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have one of those lovely journeys which is why this podcast was started to hear all of those squiggly career journeys into tech. And also that you said that you don't code and that you've tried it and you're not good at it. And that's absolutely fine as well, because we love our ladies to hear on here that you don't have to be technical, you don't have to code, you can fall into tech um in in any way, and that you can also have a broad range of uh careers. When, when you do get into the tech industry um, which is is so great to hear and and because I was thinking what inspired you to transition from you're in hospitality and then you went into tech leadership it sounds like a chance meeting of Melinda and that kind of all. Yeah, you walking across the Sahara.
Speaker 2:Every single thing I've done right back to the start is by chance. Nothing has been planned, absolutely nothing. So, between the catering and code clan, I ended up being the CEO of West Oldham Chamber of Commerce and again, that was by chance because I was running my own business in the area it was, it was known as a relatively large business. I was invited to sit on the Chamber of Commerce's board and I think within about two weeks I was voted on as vice president and then, I think about another two weeks later, I ended up as interim CEO because we had to let our current CEO go because the business was was not, was not working, it was running at a loss and um, so I stepped in to try and stabilize things and and I did so, then the board were like, would you stay, you know, for six months to a year to be, to be to really stabilize, and then we'll hire somebody? Because I had the catering company, then I'd had it, for I think by that point it was nearly 20, 26, 27 years and, um, I was like, yes, I was fed up of it. I was kind of at that that transition stage where I was like really, really don't want to be doing this anymore and I started asking myself why am I doing this? And I was doing it because I was good at it, not because I enjoyed it. So I just I got rid of one piece of it and then went to the chamber and then ended up staying at the chamber for seven years and got heavily involved in skills in the chamber, international trade and just anything in business.
Speaker 2:I was always looking at different areas and different opportunities and different things that would help businesses be successful, and that's when I started thinking about technology and also started. It was more of a where do I go next? It's growth that I can go into without without having, you know, a degree behind me or 20 years in the corporate space, you know. So who's gonna have me? Who's going to take that risk and where? Where do I want? Want to be? So, um, it just, it just ended up it was code clan by walking across the desert. So every one of them has been an absolute chance. It is it's the most asked question. I think possible is that everyone's always like how did, did you get here, linda? And quite honestly, at times I've not really got a clue. Everyone has just been like, first of all, I can't do that. I'm not skilled enough for that. Surely they'll want somebody more experienced than me in that, that knows more than me than that. And then when you stop and think about it, you're like, actually, no, I've got every bit of skill from what I've previously done that could be transitioned into, that. That could be of value and I think I'm hoping I'm not.
Speaker 2:I didn't hire myself, but but Zulka that what I learned in the chamber and the code clan combined as made Zulka the perfect place for me to be. You know, I learned in the chamber to talk to lots of different businesses. I understand private sector, I understand public sector and we sit in both that space. In zulka, at code plan, I learned to understand the tech. What does you know? The different areas of technology? What's it used for? Why is it used for it? You know the words, the word, probably more. What I know is the words, not the sort of detail behind it. Um, I also started talking to businesses that use tech that tech was important to them. I helped businesses understand why they needed to use tech to make it more important for them. So combine those two sorts of skill sets is ended up making this the perfect move, you know, but it wasn't planned and it wasn't wasn't a decision. You know a lot of ladies worry as well.
Speaker 1:I mean what you just said there about you know you took all those transferable skills with you. A lot of ladies in our community that have transitioned into tech later in their careers have had that worry of I'm going to be new, I'm going to be junior again, and actually they forget that you're not new to work, you're not new to all of those things that you learn in work and all those soft skills. And just being in the world of work, you know, actually puts you ahead of a lot of graduates who, who don't even know how to navigate, you know office politics and and how to deal with all of those things that come with it. Um, so you're right, it's not like you're just starting work again. You transition with so so many valuable skills when, when you do come into tech. And why? Why wouldn't companies give you a shot?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think I have the authority or not authority I'm not quite sure the right word is there to say this because I was in the Chamber of Commerce for so long and I've dealt with so many different types of businesses. You know just hundreds of different types of businesses in almost every sector you could possibly imagine, know just hundreds of different types of businesses and almost every sector you could possibly imagine is that tech, to me, is the most diverse in any of the sectors and also, to be honest, I think the best sentence out there is almost every business is a tech business. Now, there's no such thing as a business that doesn't have technology in it in some aspect, or should have. If you're going to last the long term in business right now, technology has to be at the heart of what you do. Using your data has to 100% be at the heart of what you do, or you just you're going to struggle to stand the test of time because everything about you is going going to be about that.
Speaker 2:But but actual, real, born from the heart technology companies know they need every aspect of cognitive thinking and diverse thinking at the table to make it work. They know and get it that that a business cannot run by pure techies at the table themselves. They get it, they understand it, they welcome other thinking to the table, whereas other industries can be a bit more closed. Well, you don't know X or you haven't done X, you can't sit at our table. Tech companies, real red tech companies, they're like we need you to the table because we know we don't think like that, we think this way and we need someone to think that way and that way and that way. And in Zouk in particular, there's many people in that organisation that haven't come from a tech background but they're really, really good at what they do in that space and it needs every kind of knowledge at the table to make it work. Definitely.
Speaker 1:And for yourself. When you did get into tech, your career really took off and your career progression it went quite fast and I know, um that, uh, you had previously said to us that you didn't like networking, but actually, uh, you put a lot of that progression down to, um, the fact that you, you know, you learned to network and that, um that that really uh fast-forward forwarded your career and that you became the networking queen. Can you share some practical tips for building meaningful professional relationships and how you transformed your approach to networking from somebody that didn't like networking through to know the networking queen?
Speaker 2:as it was coined. Yeah, I know people are like, god, you're here again, linda, you'd go to an opening of an envelope. I'm like, yeah, I know it's, what are you gonna do? So I just absolutely loved it and I still do love it. People are like, yeah, out again. But I just really enjoy it. I love meeting different people and speaking to different people. But yeah, when I started it, I used to be absolutely terrified. I can't you know what.
Speaker 2:I can't remember why I started going out networking. I think I was genuinely. Somebody said you need to do this, look for more business. You know, I'd probably run the business for 20 odd years before I started doing that. But then, when I look back now, I think it's always been networking because it's who you know. People buy from people. So if you don't go out and meet people, they're not going to buy, buy your services.
Speaker 2:And I remember being at this event and I was about to leave and a woman said to me you're going. And I said, yeah, I don't like this, you know. I said there's no business for me here and she was like, but that's not what networking's about. She said it's about making connections, making working friendships. You know, we're building up trust with individuals, she said. And then and this is the bit that really stuck with me she said you know, if you meet and you chat away to someone and you get on, you tell them about your business. She will, or they will, then go and talk about your business. They might be out networking somewhere again and they'll go. Oh, I need somebody to do at the time, catering. Oh, I met a lady I did the last week.
Speaker 2:So you've almost got your own mini sales army out on your behalf that you don't even know is out there selling you. And the better you get at networking and the more you hang out with other people that do network, they will constantly, constantly, you know, recommend you, introduce you, move you about, um, and when you're in that world, it just becomes part of what. What you do so it's what I used to say to my own sales team is go networking, don't expect to get any wins out of it. What you do so is what I used to sell to my own sales team is go networking, don't expect to get any wins out of it, because you're not going there to sell and definitely don't sell. Don't ever go to networking events and sell and we sell this, did it? Somebody asks you what you do, then yes, this is what we do.
Speaker 2:But you want people to build trust from you and you want to see them again and see them again and you have to go regularly. You have to go regularly. You can't go once and go. I didn't sell anything from that. You have to keep going and keep going and keep going. But also network in environments that is right for your market. You know there's no point in going. You know I still love the chamber, but don't go to the chamber events if you're looking to sell technology. You know there are sectors that sit in that space. You know as well engineering. You would go to the engineering networking associations, but going to those associated with the sector you're interested in, and don't go to sell. Go to build relationships and then these people will have your back for years. I still reach out to people. I must have known now, 15, 20 years now, that will still pass business my way or pass contacts my way or introduce me to people. So if you do it right, you've got that support for a lifetime.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're so right, it takes more than meeting somebody once. Um, it takes several meetings and and I I mean that was such good advice as well for sales people to think you don't go to a networking event to sell. It is so, so different. It's different if we went to a lot of expo shows last year and that's different. You're there, you're there to network, but also maybe meet some sales leads, or that is completely different than going to, you know, a drinks evening and just meeting some people and seeing what they do and, um, also what not always what you can get out of it, but what that you know just meeting that person and seeing what you can do for them, um, as, as you said, really builds trust, and that takes a lot of meetings, um, sometimes a lot of commitment.
Speaker 1:So, yes, um, but it also sounds like as well that you changed your frame of mind from this is something that I didn't really like through to. You just changed your mindset and thought. Actually, you know, if I look at this differently and I look at this as as building trust with people and, as you said, that mini army as well, people that are talking about you when you don't, even when you're not even there. Um then sometimes you change your mindset as to why you're at an event, or why you're going to an evening event.
Speaker 2:Um then you can grow to love it yeah, I mean, I really grew to love it and I think that's why I ended up at the chamber for so long, because I really, really enjoyed the aspect of like I enjoy listening to what other people are doing, why they're doing it, what they're doing, it doesn't really matter, you can tell me about. You know, you might be a fisherman, you might be making t-shirts, might be building ships, it doesn't really matter, I'll find it interesting. And and then I also go. I love going. I know just the person you speak to. Like I just it just gives me a buzz.
Speaker 2:And then if I find that that then progresses to something that actually works, then that's even better. Like I used to love like I would run a chamber event and then people would be busy in a way, and then six months later you're like, oh, I did a deal with that person that you introduced me to, got half a million pounds from it, and you're like, wow, that actually worked. You know, yeah, there's nothing better than feeling that you have helped that connection and put two people together that has led to something successful. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:I wanted to ask you a little bit about the changes that went on while you were at the West Lydon Chamber of Commerce. There were quite some transformations that happened there. What were some of the key strategies that you employed to drive those changes whilst, whilst you were there?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, yeah, yeah, there was a lot of very big changes. When I started at West Lovie and I mean it wasn't in a good place, um, when I, when I came on board, I mean the president that brought me on board was a very nice man, um, james, james Wallace, um, but I was at the time I think I mean, off the top of my head roughly there might have been 16 people on that board, all men. I was the only woman. I would say it hazard a guess and I don't know really, but I must have been 20 years younger than anybody else and I very quickly realized and that that that was one of the transitional periods for me, when I knew that anything was possible. I've probably a lot had a lot less confidence then, and I remember sitting at the table, thinking a lot to bring to the table here, but I used to be terrified to speak up, but not anymore. London has changed women since those days. I just, you know I first of all was very daunted about the people sitting the table. Then I realized I actually had a lot to bring to the table, um, and our CEO at the time was, was not, was, well, the chamber was not in a good place and it wasn't working with the other chamber team there. So I was the one that instigated moving forward and making the changes there, that he would step down and leave the business. And that is where I ended up as interim CEO, because the board were like, well, now what you know? Like what are we going to do now? So now, so I'm like, well, I'll do it for a little bit. I'm, you know, the business in that place. It was running itself, then the catering business so, and then I grew to love it and, yeah, I, I changed, completely changed the board. They'd been there a long time. I remember I rewrote the whole artist constitution when, when they gave it to me, it's still on tight white paper. That's how old it was, yes, so I remember sort of redoing that and rejigging. I just basically tore it down the bones again and started again.
Speaker 2:And then the but the biggest strategy was using partnerships and collaboration. Like it was an organization that had no money, no money in the bank, wasn't making any money. It was a bit of a mess. We really need to tear it all down and build it for nothing. And I did it by collaboration, you know, bringing in partners. I gave, like I had a company like completely redo our website and I gave them a partnership for the year. You know they were on all our social media and all our marketing as our marketing partner. I did the same, I think, the lawyer and an accountant. You know, we did all that and it really, really worked.
Speaker 2:And then from there, we started to raise our brand awareness and who we were. The members started to slowly come in the partnership because I implemented that new partnership look, look people, oh, I, oh, I want one of them. You know I'd like to be a partner and we're like, okay, that's fine brand. And then it just grew from there. But the overall strategy was, yeah, a big, big change at the start Stripped it all down, redid it all. We rebranded it, re-website, re-marketing, re-feel yeah, real, real change of offerings, but kept the core purpose behind it of what chamber was for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah and again. You know your progression into leadership happened really fast and, and, as you said, your experience as well of being the only woman um on the board, all of this kind of really threw you in the deep end. It must be quite a baptism of fire for you, but it sounds like you learned a hell of a lot along the way, um, incredibly fast paced.
Speaker 1:Um. You mentioned something about being a buffer between, the importance of being the buffer between your team and higher hierarchies. Can you elaborate on how you navigate, how you kind of navigate your leadership role effectively and maintain team morale and productivity, and how you kind of why you think it's important that you're that buffer between your team and the hierarchies, buffer between your team and the hierarchies?
Speaker 2:I think it's very important. And if you get, if you decide to go down that route into that leadership space, then that's your role. And this is my own personal opinion. It's not the same as everybody's, but if I'm the leader of a team, then I feel I'm very responsible for them. I don't take responsibility into the point that you know. I'm stressed out that you know everything that they do sits for me, but then it does.
Speaker 2:I feel if my team is not delivering, I've either not got the right people in the team, which is my responsibility, and if they're not delivering, they maybe don't understand what they need to do that's my responsibility. Or they don't have the right tools again that's my responsibility. If the right people are there, with the right tools in the right direction, they should be able to deliver their job. And and then also, as hard as it as it sounds, if somebody is not coping with all these three things, then maybe for their own best interest, it's not right for them and they need to go, or or it's you know, it's behavior and they don't, they need to let go. And then that's another aspect of leadership that you should be able to step in and deal with these hard situations as and when you need to, because it affects the rest of your team. You know, if you have one bad apple in a barrel that's affecting the rest of your team and you're not doing something with that, that bad apple, the rest of the barrel will go off. Then your whole team will be unhappy. But if they see that you have the strength and the power to deal with that problem as and when it comes along, then then they, then they respect you.
Speaker 2:But again, as a leader, you need to earn that respect that they need to learn to trust you. You know trust, trust is everything as well in a team. If you're a leader, your team must trust you. And if they do trust you, you know they'll, they'll, they'll do whatever they need to do to get that, get, get everything done right. You know my team's known and also, if I muck it up, I tell them I've mucked up, you know. So, um, complete honesty and trust is what, what? What makes a team successful makes leadership successful.
Speaker 1:I think yeah, I love the fact that you you mentioned there several times that all of those things are your responsibility and if something is going wrong it's your responsibility. Um, I will mention I won't mention the the company, um, but one of the worst teams I have been on is when, um, your boss uh tries to throw the team under the bus when things are going wrong, that when they're backed into a corner and instead of thinking actually what, what is it that that we're doing as a team, what can I do better for everybody, just kind of start pointing the finger and blaming and it just it trickles down to a team that is not happy and does not trust their leader, does not trust the direction of the company and where it's going.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think sometimes a leader that like yourself, is just humble enough to take a step back and say you know actually what is it that I'm doing, or the tools that we have, or the way that we're working, and that all of those things are your responsibility as the leader, rather than thinking you know what. Everybody else has got the problem. Everyone else, not me.
Speaker 2:To me it's common sense. If your, your team, is not delivering, it's you that's built the team as a leader, it's you that's guiding the team, it's you that's directing the team. If you're telling everybody it's the wrong team, you're the one that's hired the wrong team. So you're irresponsible, you know so, um, and sometimes you do make a mistake, hiring the wrong person into that team and it's your fault and it's you know sometimes that wrong hire is not even that person's fault. It's you that's got wrong, got it wrong picking the right person to fit into that team.
Speaker 2:And then how I used to take that higher up is you know when I was on the board meeting or in front of the CEO, if my team was not delivering and I got a bollocking for it, like I used that's where the buffer used to come in. I didn't take that back to them. It was like right, okay, this is not working. Guys, what are we going to do to fix this? What? What is what is broken? Or if what was coming from above was not right, I was strong enough to go no, I'm sorry, that's not right.
Speaker 2:We have done abcd and I always used to have everything very well documented so that you could prove in black and white that you were doing what you said you were doing. So that's why I always had my information, shall we say, to block what was coming from above, that it didn't affect my team. They would be affected as little as possible, shall we say, because of what was coming from above. It wasn't always smooth sailing and it would filter through and they would feel it. But what they always said, they always felt safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was there, you know, and I was doing my best to protect what, what was going on, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm really set you up as well for for when you move to Zulka and take all those things with you, that you're ready for that, and certain cultures as well have a really suited for certain team leaders that, as you said, you know teams need to feel safe for business to be successful. So you know, you learn all of that and brought it over to Zolka when you were ready Because you had quite a squiggly or as we call squiggly career path, quite an unconventional career path. Do you have any advice for individuals that are looking to do something similar, take an unconventional career path and make that transition, especially for those of our listeners that perhaps don't have a traditional academic background?
Speaker 2:I suppose the advice I would give, looking back, that people that have an unconventional background, is just believe in yourself and your capabilities. Like, stop when someone asks you to do something and you think I can't do that. Stop and take stock of what actually you can do. Like, read between the lines of the possibility there. Yeah, I can actually do that, that, and sometimes it's absolutely terrifying. You do have to take a jump. You know a real jump. I've spoken a couple of ladies lunches and I've kind of used the analogy that for me, every, every change that I have made has been like standing at the top of the cliff about to make a bungee jump and I'm you're absolutely terrified. There's not one move I've made where I've not been terrified, thinking I can't do this, I can't do this, like I genuinely can't do this, like what the hell? And then you jump and you're like I was all right. Actually, this is quite good, in fact quite fun. I had a really good time but every um the string didn't snap, all was fine, absolutely fine.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's the odd time the bungee jump right when it's not, but it's not very often. Thankfully it's not very often. But every time I've moved it's been the right move. But every time before the move I've thought, oh my god, what am I doing? I can't do this. This is absolutely crazy. But also, what is what has led to all these opportunities?
Speaker 2:Goes back to the networking. If I did, none of these have been through applying for jobs online or seen a job or thinking I'm going to go after that job. It's been out with people that I have met every single time and I know everybody else won't be the same, but to some degree that will support and help. You know. It might even be you go to a networking event. You go. Oh, I know they're hiring for such and such in such and such. If you're not out and about, you won't hear about it. So really, networking is the key having complete faith in your skill set. Skill sets are massively transferable. That's what code clan was all about. That was all retrainers. You know people. These are people. We range people, retrain people in code clan to go into tech. They've been ballet dancers, taxi drivers, lawyers, scientists, I mean, if you name a career, we've probably retrained them into the world of tech. Because there's so many transferable skills into the world of tech, because you need all the skills. It's as simple as that.
Speaker 1:And I love hearing. We love those on the podcast. You're right, there was a lady the other day. She used to brew her own beer and she fell into tech. And then we have sometimes on our live webinars we've had a lady that was a hairdresser and she was like I never thought I'd retrain to come into tech. And we love hearing that because it just encourages more people to think actually you can do it at any time and bring skills from from anywhere to to fall into the tech industry and what a great career move totally.
Speaker 2:I mean the. The other thing I've learned recently and I talk about this from time to time as well is really think about what it is in your job that makes you happy, like I, and and go for that aspect over, over and above everything else. What, what gives you passion? What gets you up in the morning to move in into there? What do you want to be part of? Like?
Speaker 2:I had a really awkward conversation um, well, maybe a year or so ago now, when I had applied for a CEO role that I didn't get. And, um, because I'd been a CEO for so long, had my own business, was the CEO of the chamber and then ended up the CMO. I was in the exec team and I thought the next stage up for me isn't like a national CEO role at c-suite level. And then, when I was applying for the, I didn't get applied for two and I didn't get them. And then someone said to me why do you want to be CEO? Do you know what? I couldn't answer that question, like I couldn't genuinely answer that. But what we whittled down to was um, that I.
Speaker 2:I loved selling. I loved a big win. I loved being out speaking to people, you know, um, I loved fixing problems. I liked, you know, making businesses better, and we came to the conclusion that really, what I'm really really good at has been a sales director. You know, yeah, do I want to worry about the VAT return and the tax return? No, it's my worst nightmare, you know. So. So, like, actually focusing on what really got me out of bed and drove me, made me happy, is what guided down, and then I realized that I don't know if this is the right thing for this podcast or not, but for for me, especially in that leadership space, was to really be careful that ego wasn't driving me where I was going. Yes, yeah, that it wasn't. It wasn't ego deciding my career path, that I was deciding that myself. So bungee jumping and ego control are the two things that I think have sort of helped get me where I am today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, definitely, and I think there are a lot of ladies, um, and men who follow the wrong career path because of their ego might get in the way, or and they might want the job title, but, as you said, do you want to worry about those things?
Speaker 1:So, and actually you, you're more excited about something else. Yeah, yeah, definitely, and I had a similar conversation recently about uh with lady, with a lady, about you. You reach that fork in your career as well where you decide whether or not you even want to manage people or you just want to keep going on. You know, not being a lone wolf, but doing your own thing and you're responsible for your own work, because it's also quite a decision to think do I want to look after other people? But it it's quite natural to think you know what I have to progress, and the only way to progress is I have to become a team leader. I have to be responsible for individuals and they can be very unpredictable and actually it's not what, even what I wanted to do. That is what other people think you should.
Speaker 2:You should be doing exactly and I think that's where tech comes like the tech industry in particular comes back into that conversation is you can choose your path in the tech world, in what what you're able to do, because there are so many pathways you can take. You don't have to be a software developer. You don't have to be a data scientist. You don't have to be the ceo to have a good job. You know that there are many, many. You don't have to be a people leader if you don't want to be. There's there's many different roles, so many roles.
Speaker 2:It's like being in a sweetie shop. You know you really get into it and look into it. That can go that suits you in the direction that you really really want to do. You know so and that's why I think a lot of people do use it as a career change. You know so, like that, this is really really not what I want to do. Really really want to go and solve problems. Am I going to go down there? Or I really want to help make a robot or build a drone or you know, whatever. Whatever world you go into in the world of tech, you know it's, the opportunities are there in abundance.
Speaker 1:Yeah definitely, and you've mentioned um. You know you encountered quite a few challenges, um, and successes as well along the way. Is there a particular moment or experience that significantly shaped your leadership philosophy and approach? Is there something that really stands out for you?
Speaker 2:um, that's a really really good good point there. Um, I think what really? There's probably a couple of stages. The chamber was probably the first turning point for me when I realized I had a voice, that I actually had something decent to say. And really, unless, unless you've been rude and cheeky, people need to speak up a little bit more and sometimes, if you do speak up, you'll be surprised if you listen. A lot of people like I've been at a lot of meetings where I've thought speak up, you know so, and it's the people that do have the guts to actually speak up that can actually make a change and make things happen differently. And we also need to check that as well. We've been.
Speaker 2:You know you don't want to go mad, you know being a pain but yeah, just check yourself sometimes but but actually logically, really thinking I've got a good idea here that could potentially help, you know, be willing to take. You know, no, that's not a good idea, and sit back and be quiet, don't argue about it, but speaking up. So that that was a turning point for me at the chamber. I remember sitting at the boardroom table not saying a word, thinking I have a lot to bring to the table here, and from there I really grew in that chamber space and that leadership space in the chamber, a leadership in the space of not so much a big team but a leadership for other businesses, you know in politics and you know trying to to support businesses in different aspects of business growth.
Speaker 2:And then I sort of the people management grew in CodeClan when we very much grew into a very and, I suppose, developed my. I'm sure a lot of people do the same as me. It's not unique, but what worked for me in managing people and hopefully I'm still in touch with a lot of my team, so I'm presuming they did like me in the long term is that I felt like it worked and I had the happiest team. I had a happy team, I think, and that was a nice feeling. I enjoyed that, enjoyed having a team that were happy that I could protect and I could help develop, get them to the next stage and the next stage. I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 1:So probably the two points chamber code clan leading a business in the chamber and then code clan leading a team yeah, two turning points for me that I feel I've cemented that who I am today yeah, and in terms of the future, um, looking ahead, what do you envision for the future of leadership in the tech industry and do you believe that unconventional career paths will play a rowing shape in that future?
Speaker 2:absolutely, I think. I think the tech scene is already ahead in that space on on conventional um career paths, as, as you said, you know that it's known as an industry for career changers, the tech world and I don't know many other industries it's actually like that. I can think of maybe catering, but, um, it's not quite the same as tech, but they've probably started on that path. You know a number of years back, and I think that will only progress because they're learning more and more that it takes a diverse team to get where they need to go, and the world of tech is only going to get bigger and bigger. It's the future, whether we like it or not, so we need to be all on board to make sure we get the best from it. And it's good technology experience, not bad, and there's a lot of things coming our way that could take us on the wrong path.
Speaker 1:So we need to make sure that people are there to to keep it right. Um, so, yes, and what? Sorry, what was the other point to that? Um, uh, what do you? What do you envision for?
Speaker 2:the future of leadership in the tech industry again, again sound like I am really blowing their trumpet, but but I totally believe it. Like as someone that's come from so many other industries, I absolutely love this space and I will never leave it unless I'm kicked out, which hopefully I'm not is that I think they're already leading the way in leadership. You know, it's not a dogmatic leadership space tech. It's again Zoka's. It's their servant-led organization.
Speaker 2:Um, there are some people that have been around a very long time, very knowledgeable in zoka, but you never feel like you're in the room with somebody that's, you know, the big global boss, you know a group boss. It's yeah, it's they. They lead from the back, they like their leaders to. You're given a lot of autonomy and I think that's the way forward in the leadership front. Again, give people the right tools, give them the right direction. Then let them get on in that space. But the days of shouting and bawling and being dogmatic and blaming your team I those, those days are dwindling out in the tech space. I would hope in the space I've been in, I can see that changing, you know, yeah definitely.
Speaker 1:We are almost out of time and I wanted to ask you, um, out of curiosity, uh, from catering all the way through to zolka, is there something that you wish somebody had told you when you got started? Is there a piece of advice that you would like to share with our listeners and something you wish somebody had told you before you got started in your career?
Speaker 2:That's quite a hard one, because everything that I've done I've really really enjoyed and there's been a reason behind it that's got me to where I am today. Like I feel like I've been on a journey to where I am today and every part of it's been been needed. I mean, even when I had the catering, a part of that because there was different sections did go into liquidation, but I learned so much from that. Like I learned, you know, like that, if something's not working, fix it or remove it, and it was a hard way to learn but it's probably the best way to learn. Um, I think it goes back to my main learning, which I spoke about last week when I was at this lunch.
Speaker 2:I went into business very young because I had a passion for business. I always thought my passion was business and I interpreted that to be that I had to be an entrepreneur, that I had to be the one that founded a business, grow the business, become the multi-millionaire person After 20-odd years of the business which people say you did really well to keep the business going for 25 years. I did, but it was bloody hard work. I'm much happier scaling someone else's business. I'm not what I would call in the tech industry, a founder. I find it difficult to come up with that idea. That's going to be the next big thing. That's hard for me, whereas I spent 20 odd years beating myself up that I couldn't find that thing that made me a multimillionaire To find.
Speaker 2:My role probably was always in a company that I would help that company scale to become a multi, multi-million pound business, and I'm good at that right, and I wish I'd learned that years ago. Yeah, to let things go. If you're really slogging away at something and it's not quite working out, just maybe stop and have a little look and think as to why it, why it is it's not working out. And again that comes back to ego. It comes back to ego. I should have let that go a long time ago. So letting go of ego, of what you think of something, and really sitting back and deciding what it is that you really really want to do is probably the the biggest lesson for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah and brilliant advice to share with our ladies. There are probably a lot of our listeners who are also beating themselves over the head about something and listening into this and thinking, yeah, I'm that person. So lovely advice to end it on, because we are already out of time. So, linda, thank you so much for sharing your story today. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Just a pleasure, I enjoyed it. I can talk all day, good we'll.