Stepping into a leadership role can be a transformative experience, providing valuable career reflections and insights. Career reflections are an ongoing process and can identify areas for growth.
Continuous self-reflection will help you refine your leadership skills, adapt to new challenges, and make meaningful contributions to your team and organization.
In this episode, Paloma Sedeau, Engineering Manager, at Checkout.com shares her own experiences of stepping into a leadership role and shares advice for up-and-coming Engineers as she reflects on her own journey so far.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Stepping into a leadership role can be a transformative experience, providing valuable career reflections and insights. Career reflections are an ongoing process and can identify areas for growth.
Continuous self-reflection will help you refine your leadership skills, adapt to new challenges, and make meaningful contributions to your team and organization.
In this episode, Paloma Sedeau, Engineering Manager, at Checkout.com shares her own experiences of stepping into a leadership role and shares advice for up-and-coming Engineers as she reflects on her own journey so far.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the Content Director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing career reflections and what I've learned from stepping into a leadership role. Continuous self-reflections will help you refine your leadership skills, adapt to new challenges and make meaningful contributions to your team and organisation. Thankfully, I've got the amazing Paloma with me from Checkoutcom today and she's going to share her own experiences as stepping into a leadership role and advice for up and coming engineers as she reflects on her own journey so far. Welcome, paloma. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Happy to be there.
Speaker 1:It's lovely to have you on and to share a little bit about your journey. Can we kick off with a bit of context about you, who you are, what you do at checkoutcom and um? We'll start with there, if that's okay yeah, sure, uh.
Speaker 2:So I my name is paloma sodo and I'm an engineering manager at checkout, uh, which is a company that uh build uh payment solutions. Uh, about how I got there, uh, I think I started uh in the tech industry in 2009, so it's been quite a time already. I started by sticking interface development because I was mostly interested in design actually, and I think at the time the field was called more multimedia than internet. Gradually I moved to a more engineering role, if I can say it like that, and I started my career by working in advertising companies because that's where, at the time, that was where you could create great interfaces with a lot of content. And I decided to move to more product-centered companies because actually I like to take care of product on the long term. And I joined Checkout at first as an individual contributor, actually as a front-end engineer to build interfaces. I started almost alone on a project and I got the opportunity to build a team around that project little by little, and that's how actually I ended up in management.
Speaker 1:Amazing, did you and it's always interesting to hear people's roots in and that actually you came from design and advertising? And did you know at the time that all of those lovely skills that you picked up along the way were going to feed into you moving into the tech industry? And all those soft skills that you picked up? Did you kind of I don't know, when you started? Did you connect the two? Or did you just think actually being in tech is very techy, is what we normally hear so I think I connected the two uh very quickly actually.
Speaker 2:Um, I think I just preferred the building part than the design part, if I can say it like that. I knew from the start that it was a male dominated industry, if I can say it like that. But at the same time I think it was kind of a challenge to get more on the tech side of the job than on the design, where there's a lot of women, I guess, more than men, and so I think part of that was also exciting, if I can say it like that. So just have the challenge of doing a guy's job actually and working software more than design.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so when you studied or when you were learning about that and you noticed it was male-dominated, did you have those moments where you thought, maybe that's not for me, or you just Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I had these moments when I had to choose where to go to college. Actually, I was thinking about going to an engineering school, because we have a different system in France where we have those schools and I thought, yeah, I'm going to go more on something more design in an art school actually. So I ended up in an art school, but I have no regrets at all not doing an engineering school actually, because I learned a lot of skills that were super helpful along the way to work on interfaces and I think it helps me in my collaboration day to day basis with more product design functions because I understand how they think and what they expect. It really helps collaboration to work together.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, that's good to hear. And if you were looking back on your career so far, is there any advice that you would have given yourself if you were starting out again?
Speaker 2:I guess there's a lot of advices, um, I guess the main one would be to ask as many questions as possible. Uh, I think I started a bit shy, especially because of the tech industry, um, and so it's not super easy being a girl in this industry at start, and at some point I was able to really start trusting myself more, I would say, and asking more questions to more senior people, and I started learning 10 times faster, I think. Another advice I'd say is to listen to weak signals, if I can say like that, especially feedback that doesn't look like feedback or doesn't sound like feedback. Some people will give you along the way very opinionated feedback, if I can say it like that, that can be very loud, and when I started listening to feedback that is more quiet I can say it like that it really helped me too. So from people giving me smaller instructions, if I can say it like that and guiding me along the way.
Speaker 1:So more actually mentoring and getting as many feedback voices as possible is very important when you start yes, yes, and actually both of those pieces of advice all I suppose come down to falling into a good company, a safe environment, where you feel like you get lots of different types of feedback, that it's um useful feedback and uh that as well, that you can um your first point about asking questions as well, that you feel that you're in an environment where you can ask questions, because sometimes you're on teams where you think you know, I can't, I can't ask a question, or and that's not just you finding your place as as an employee and sometimes just as a as a young person sometimes thinking, you know, is it okay for me to ask?
Speaker 1:That it's actually just being sometimes in the right environment where you feel comfortable that you can ask questions to move forward. Absolutely same with the feedback. Um, it takes a little while, it's quite a there's quite a balance, isn't it to find that? And I think sometimes when you find yourself in the right company where that is happening, um, then you tend to stay put uh than a company that perhaps is not so welcoming of um questions and feedback.
Speaker 2:Definitely. There's definitely a question of culture. I will say so. It really depends on how companies envision, um, young people joining them actually and how they want to lead them, mentor, mentor them. Do they have mentorship programs? Do they have circles where people can discuss openly? Is there communities? That helps, it could be women or anyone coming from a multiverse culture, and there's a lot of things like that can be introduced at the company level. That really helps, fostering a culture of trusting each other, being able to make your voice heard, even if it's on different subjects than actually tech subjects or your day-to-day work, because when you are the youngest in the team or the less senior, the less experienced person, being able to make your voice heard on other subjects ways of working, for example is also a great way to to start actually and get confidence yes, definitely, and lots of different avenues for that.
Speaker 1:You mentioned mentoring um as one of them, but I agree it. A company culture is made up of lots of different avenues where you can have different places to share your voice, not just um one. We used to have a when we started this podcast. Somebody said to me it's more than just a Slack channel and it kind of stuck with me on here that some companies think you know what. We started a Slack channel for women in tech and that solved our problems. But it is lots of different areas where you can share your voice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's definitely not enough. At Checkout, I really appreciate the fact that we have so many different options. That works for, I think, a lot of different characters and cultures. So we have communities, a women's community, one in each country, actually. So there is a French community for women and also one in the UK. They regroup for they group at the head of of checkout as one big community. There's also cycles to discuss as women or as leadership women. Well, there's a lot of different opportunities like this that really, really help. And also training training for managers, training about how to behave and how to discuss with different people from different origins.
Speaker 1:I was going to touch upon that, that it's amazing that you don't just have groups for people to tap into, but you have training for managers as well. So on the other side, to help them to deal with people from different cultures, different, diverse backgrounds, and instead of just leaving it to teams to kind of figure out themselves, it sounds like, actually check out, they step in and kind of get ahead of that and make sure that the managers are aware as well, instead of again just saying we've created a few Slack groups, get on with it yourself. They actually step in, we train them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it goes way beyond that.
Speaker 2:I think uh and training especially super important.
Speaker 2:I mean, I really believe, as a manager, that's the number one thing to do, uh when you step into this uh role, and having the right uh help from your companies is super important, and it can take many forms.
Speaker 2:Uh can be training uh about just, you know, behavioral issues how to spot harassment in the workplace, how to foster a culture where women feel safe at work. But it can also be training about how to make sure you don't have a biased opinion, for example, at the feedback season, because every year there is the end of the year review in a lot of companies. How do you provide that feedback in a way that is non-based? How do you make sure that you also accommodate for different cultures? How do you evaluate the kind of feedback that you give, depending on data actually that is published all around the world about how minorities so not only women in tech, but also racial minorities get evaluated, on how to make sure that you do not discriminate them? There's so many things that can be done, I think, so many resources that a company can access. I feel really, really grateful actually to be in a company that provides this kind of training for managers. Yes, yeah, incredible opportunity, very forward thinking, grateful actually to be in a company that provides this kind of training for managers.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, incredible opportunity. Very forward thinking um. I must really retain good staff as well. That that you know managers might be thinking this is definitely, um, something that I don't I haven't received at another company. So, um, yeah, very, very forward thinking um. Can I ask a little bit about the tech industry and working in it in general? The tech industry is very fast paced. It's a very fast paced industry to be part of. Do you think the industry has changed since you started?
Speaker 2:Tremendously, I'd say, on so many aspects. So there's everything we just discussed earlier about getting training and making sure that we know about struggling, of diversity women in tech, for example but it also has changed technically very deeply, I think. For example, I think there's so many possibilities to learn now that I didn't get at the time. I think it's super exciting for new joiners.
Speaker 2:I think open source made a very big difference in the industry. When I started my career, for example, it was a time where you'd have to pay if you wanted to learn. So either you paid or your company paid for training. And right now, everything is available on the internet so you can learn. There's so many resources, so many opportunities. I think also, the face of the industry has changed, because I started at a time where everything was dominated by big corporations, I'd say so big agencies, counseling agencies, the big tech industry, banking, things like that. There's a lot of startups now. I think it creates a lot of other different opportunities, more roles, different roles, I would say so. There's more possibilities to evolve, to contribute. It's very different indeed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's. I've been told by several ladies on here that it's that's what keeps them in tech, that those, those changes. It just keeps moving and you're, you're never bored in the tech industry and there is always again. If you're in the right company, you're never bored. I'm sure there are some companies that don't move forward as fast as others, but it is a brilliant career choice because you are constantly adapting and progressing in your own career as well as an engineer.
Speaker 2:Is there any advice that you would give an engineer in their early career nowadays, compared to previously, when you started, yes, there is, I think, technical advice and more soft skill advice.
Speaker 2:So on the technical aspect, I'd say, uh, to learn how to deliver uh features, if I can say it like that. Learn how to shape an id into a concrete result. Uh could be little things like publishing a website or know how to host an API. Learn how to do that by yourself. And also, I'd say, to learn the tools using the industry. That's really something that I wish I'd done sooner. If you get to learn how to use the tools well, usually at university you will learn a lot of concepts, design patterns, things like that, but not so much the tooling that are used day to day in the industry. And so when you get your first job, for instance, if you don't spend a lot of time learning the tools and things like that, that means that you can move on to big projects that can have big impact faster. So I think this one I would have liked to receive it, but faster. So I think this one I would have liked to receive it.
Speaker 2:And on the soft skills, I'd say learn what differentiates you, the thing that you have that others don't have and that can benefit your company. Obviously it can be, for example, being a great communicator or being very good at sharing skills and teaching others. To me it was attention to detail. I think it's like one of my skills, and I had to learn to work with great attention to details because that's what I like, and fast. And by building this skill, I think I was able to differentiate myself and find time to learn other stuff, especially learn how to move to engineering management.
Speaker 2:And the last advice I'd give would be to find a mentor. I think this is something super interesting that not so many people get to experience. Finding somebody that, for example, is in the place where you would like to be in two or three years can be very interesting because they can help you get there first and also because just by chatting with them, I'm sure you can learn what is needed to get there, which is often the hardest part. Actually, Somebody will know that they want to move to people management because they love to communicate with people and they really want to have an impact in a team, but they don't necessarily know what's expected, um, how the job is looking day-to-day basis, and so finding a mentor really can help with that amazing.
Speaker 1:Um, I, I love everything you just said there, particularly the bit about um finding what you're good at. I find that's where that we not not just ladies, but we're all very good at um comparing ourselves to others in a way where we we start to think, actually I'm not as good as that person at something, or if I it might be, oh I'm not as creative as that person, or, um, I can't do things as fast as that person. But, like you said, just finding what you're good at is what really matters and then honing in on that and yours was attention to detail and once you pick up on that, you can then really focus on what you would like to do and everything that you bring to the team, instead of trying to be somebody else, which all of us can fall into that, that trap. And it's such good advice to share as well that that that it's okay that you're not good at everything. It's the other thing what are you good at? That's what you really need to to pick out and find um to work on.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, especially in this day and age of social media, and everybody, everybody looks so fantastic all the age of social media and everybody, everybody looks so fantastic all the time on social media and they're also good at everything. It can have that effect where you think well, you know, I might not be good at that, but there are lots of soft skills that that we're all good at. Um, we don't always focus on them. So, yeah, that's brilliant advice and I wanted to ask you a little bit about that advice for those thinking about stepping into a leadership role. You mentioned people management a little bit there. Do you have any advice for those thinking of stepping into that role for the for the for the first time? Is there anything there that you wish somebody had told you when you became a leader?
Speaker 2:To train yourself. I would say it's something I experienced in the past. A lot of people jump into managerial positions because there is an opportunity. They don't necessarily receive the right training or get to train themselves. I think really people need to consider that as a totally different job, a new job that requires the same training as when they started studying engineering, for instance. A very, totally different set of skills required, I would say, and also asking your company for training can help prove that you're interested in this track. So get training, reading books, getting every help that you can have, I'd say also to think about your values and how you want to express them in your role.
Speaker 2:I think it's very important to lead with values that really you think are yours, that you embody on a day-to-day basis. It makes a difference as a leader, first of all, because that means that you are true to your team and people recognize that and appreciate that. Also, it helps find a company that is aligned with your values. I think it's really, really important. All the people that I've seen being unhappy in management position, I think it was because there was a difference between their values, their company values, their team values, and when you get to align everybody together on the same values. That's when magic happens, I think, and it's something I've been able to experience at checkout and that I haven't been able to experience in the past. So, leading with care, attention to details, deliver whatever happens and make the customer first these are things that are super important to me, and when you find that in your position, that's when things work out for you, I think.
Speaker 1:Definitely, I think, because your team can pick up on on that as well, and whether or not you're being authentic with, whether or not the manager is not actually um saying and doing or they are saying, but there's something about the company that is, um, not enabling them to to actually fulfill those values, and it's as if the team, the team, know that when, when a manager is authentic and um, they can actually move forward as a team and achieve things from from year to year. Um, you're absolutely. You're absolutely right. It's also quite rare to find as well, as you said there, you know, you haven't actually experienced that until now um, it's. It is quite rare to find a company where everything, all the stars, align, um and uh to to really want to stay there, um, and to live out your, your values, um, so, yeah, uh, brilliant advice when you step into leadership as well, that it is a new job.
Speaker 1:People don't. I don't think people know that, and you, I think you said a little bit earlier about people management and what that actually entails. People are very unpredictable. I think some people think you know what my next step in my career is. I have to manage people and then they get into that role and then they have that shock of my gosh. You know, people are very unpredictable. I didn't know my team were going to do that or how. How do you deal with that challenge and give feedback and all the things that come with it, and you're right to receive training on that or to ask for training as well. It's so, so important. It's a completely different role to your day-to-day role, and not for everybody, is it.
Speaker 2:Not for everybody absolutely, and as much as I love my management position and I really wanted that for a long time, so I'm happy that it's working out I think it's super important also for companies to think about tracks, a career path for people that are just not made for it or don't want that yet. Individual contributors' path that are very important too. Also, I think when a company really understands that, set the same expectations and the same possibilities of evolution in individual path or management path, that's when they get the best managers from their teams because people don't feel forced to move to management positions to be able to evolve in the company. And that's when you get people that wants to be manager because they like management instead of people that do that just because that's the only way to get a rate exactly, yes.
Speaker 1:yes, that is a good point because because just forcing somebody into the next band of their career or whatever it is that they may be doing is is not at all not helpful for the team. Either there's somebody there that didn't want to be there, or is there far too early in their career as well. In terms of your day, how did your day structure change when you became a manager?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Not the same job, so not the same day. I would say it surprised me at first. I didn't expect that. I thought the transition would be smoother, maybe, actually, and probably it's a good thing, because I like that, but I was very surprised at the amount of time I now spend communicating with my team or with other leaders. It's really different when you come especially from an engineering individual contributor position where you code all day. As an engineering manager, I don't get to code at all now.
Speaker 1:And when I do, my team hates me.
Speaker 2:You forget about coding. You can help your team, obviously, but the goal is not to code anymore. It's not to find technical solutions yourself, it's to help your team find the solutions to guide them. And it's also very different thing because instead of being in the light, you kind of have to push others to be in the light. So very different day, but also very different weeks, months or even years. I think. Before my days were really structured by shorter tasks. It could be, for example, spending an hour on coding reviews and then spending two hours developing a new feature and then spending some time with the team in some meetings sprint plannings. So I really used to see things a daily schedule and now it's more a monthly or yearly schedule, with very long tasks that span a month. Actually Cycles also, so things that repeat themselves, and of your performance cycle, obviously, but also finding what to do for the next roadmap, the next quarter. So very cyclic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, quite a change, um, in mindset and uh, you know, and something that it sounds like you you really love. But, um, it's almost as if you have to make that, that switch in your mind and really embrace that um, and that it's, it's uh, it's a journey as well. You know, it sounds like that didn't happen for you overnight and you had to think, you know, no, definitely, yeah, change has happened and I'm going to embrace it and uh and and go from there. But it sounds as well, um, that you, you are not just encouraged to be a manager at checkout, you are encouraged to be a leader. Is is there? How does checkout support you in? In that way, it sounds like they don't just want you to be that person that tells people on your team what they have to do every day. You're kind of you set an example as a leader and you're allowed to. You know, show your values, and that trickles down to your team. How, how does checkout support you with that?
Speaker 2:that's a very good question actually. Um, I think actually companies need to support managers, otherwise it can't work. Um, it starts before entering the management position. I will say, uh, because getting into a management role actually is 50% hard work, 50% luck, people say. And I will just replace luck by support from the company mostly and maybe that's what I lacked also in the past to move to a management position and what I found at checkout, the support is, yes, start from a year or two years before you really want to get in the position. It's something where I feel a lot of companies are failing. Women, by the way.
Speaker 2:Supporting a manager is not just giving the right tools at the right time or giving a title.
Speaker 2:It's really enforcing people as leaders, putting them in charge, giving them projects, trusting them, charge or giving them projects, trusting them, and it requires a level of trust I say I'd say into not just managers but, on point, in a general manner, it's something I'm glad that I found a check out. So learning, getting help along the way, knowing that you can discuss with your managers openly about your issues, that you find out. Also, having a lot of ways for employees to express when they need something or when they are disappointed by something. So it's not just letting a manager do their job, but also providing, as a company, all the structure that helps. I would say, get data about how people are feeling, to provide the right help at the right time in the right place, if I can say it like that. Things like surveys, regularly anonymous, obviously, things like that can really help. For example, so having your back before you need the company to have your back, if I can say it like that that's something that's really really great when it happens.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's a really nice way of putting it, and I agree that that trust is so important and that trickles down all the way from the top, because if you don't have trust from your management, then it comes out in the way that you speak about the management team and that trickles down to your team and that kind of bleeds into their day and the way they think about the company and the way that they approach projects and all of that trust really stems from the top and whether or not they're actually fulfilling their values and doing what they say they are going to do. So, yeah, I love that. There's a really, really nice way of putting it. Um, for those that are considering a step into management for the first time, do you have any advice for our listeners, something that you wish you had been told before you become a manager, or something you wish somebody turned around and said to you you know what, don't worry about that, it's okay when you become a manager. Is there anything you want to share?
Speaker 2:uh, I'd say, uh, find a mentor again, yeah. Or, or, mentor yourself, uh. I think most often we say to people find a mentor. But getting to mentor others, um, I think is very interesting because, uh, when you start to learn from others, that's really when you are ready to actually delegate. So that's the most important part of the management position I will say. I also think that to really grasp complex concepts, it's super interesting to be able to explain them and to teach them. So getting to mentor somebody is a great first step. That's, I think, when you start being in the shoes of a manager, and it's super easy to mentor people.
Speaker 2:You can mentor people during your day-to-day job. You can ask your current manager to assign somebody new that's just joined your team, for example, or someone that is struggling to help them day-to-day basis, or, if you don't have this opportunity, during your career, you can also find a lot of people actually in communities outside of your job where new joiners or people that are trying to do a professional reconversion try to find somebody to help them get there and reach that step. That's also a great way to experience managing people. Try to find somebody to help them get there and reach that step. That's also a great way to experience managing people, the real part of managing people, which is helping others when they struggle or helping them step up. I'd say also training programs, if you can find some from your company, and reading books.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of great books about management nowadays, especially lots of books, that great books about management nowadays, especially a lot of books that are more about engineering management, because there was a lot of books about management for a very long time.
Speaker 2:I think it's something that has existed since I don't know, maybe 50 years, but books about engineering management itself are probably more recent. There's a few that really helped me along the way I can give an example are probably more recent, and there's a few that really helped me along the way. I can give an example. I think the one that helped me the most is the Manager's Path by Camille Fournier. She's French too, and I think it's a great read because it's not a book that's meant to help people get their first management position. It's a book that's really meant to help them along their way as a manager on a full career path. So from management to what is expected from me as a director, for instance, and even if you are not looking into being a director in the next five to 10 years, it's still interesting to understand how other people are thinking and what they expect from you, especially in the management position.
Speaker 1:That's so important. It is a panic. We have that discussion on here a lot about what is expected of you when you walk into a management role or a director role or whatever it may be, and ladies on here are always very honest and they always say, yeah, you have that little internal panic where you go.
Speaker 1:Everybody expects everything from me because I've stepped into a leadership all at once yeah, all at once, you're supposed to know everything, um, your team isn't needed anymore. So that that happens constantly, and I think just that, hearing what is expected of you, it's not always said up front either. It's it's something that's kind of assumed sometimes. So so, so you don't have that panic of just everybody expect me to have the answers to everything just to hear that from somebody else, or to figure out, um for yourself what those expectations are and to to move through them is so um would be such good advice for for our listeners, um to to move, move into a management role. Paloma, we are already at the end of our conversation today. It's been an absolute pleasure and it was absolutely flown by. So thank you so much for coming in and sharing your story. It's been a pleasure. Thank you likewise. Thank you and for everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.