Join us as we delve into the dynamic realm of tech business transformation. Uncover the strategies and insights that pave the way for a more inclusive and diverse tech industry.
In this episode, Rosa Rolo, Group Strategy Director of Arrows, explores the nuances of revamping hiring and pay processes, shedding light on how tech businesses can actively cultivate environments that attract and retain more women in technology roles.
From dismantling biases to redefining compensation structures, this episode is a roadmap for fostering gender diversity in the tech landscape. Tune in and discover the keys to unlocking the full potential of your team while creating a future where women thrive in every facet of the tech world.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Join us as we delve into the dynamic realm of tech business transformation. Uncover the strategies and insights that pave the way for a more inclusive and diverse tech industry.
In this episode, Rosa Rolo, Group Strategy Director of Arrows, explores the nuances of revamping hiring and pay processes, shedding light on how tech businesses can actively cultivate environments that attract and retain more women in technology roles.
From dismantling biases to redefining compensation structures, this episode is a roadmap for fostering gender diversity in the tech landscape. Tune in and discover the keys to unlocking the full potential of your team while creating a future where women thrive in every facet of the tech world.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in. As always, I am Katie Batesman, the content director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing how tech businesses can revamp their hiring and pay process to encourage more women into tech. Today we're going to uncover the strategies and insights that paved the way for a more inclusive and diverse tech industry. Thankfully, I've got the wonderful Rosa Rolo Group Strategy Director of Arrows and Major Group Company with me today and we're going to explore the nuances of revamping hiring and pay processes, shed in some light on how tech businesses can actively cultivate environments that attract and retain more women in tech roles. Welcome, Rosa. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for coming on and having a chat with us. I know you're a very busy lady and we'd love to kick off with. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and how you got into tech, please?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. So I have been in the talent space for the last 15 years. I've covered contract hiring. I've covered PIRM. In 2019, I launched our partner offering, which was where I put talent partners on site where we could help manage their whole talent function, which allowed us to have more impact. I've spent the last 10 years actually in the creative sector, covering digital marketing and creative working across top ad agencies, predominantly in the DC e-commerce space or brands that were going through that digital transformation.
Speaker 2:Two years ago, my founding company, major Players, merged with Arrow's Group Global. Arrow's have been going for 20 years. They are in the tech space, placing engineers and data teams and product across the scale-up and enterprise landscape, and we formed Major Group, of which there are five brands in the group. Major Players and Arrow sit alongside Booster, who are our talent solutions business, build Circle, who are tech consultancy, who are really called. They're set up by the founding engineering team at Justi. And then, finally, we've got Kesa, who are a search business who specialise in tech and product. My role within the group is to bring those brands together and provide the right solutions for our clients, depending on what they need.
Speaker 2:I'm also a mum of one, and the reason I tell you this is because I went off on mat leave just as the merge was happening and I came back and suddenly was in a tech business, which was incredibly exciting but also incredibly daunting. So I've been in the world of tech for two years, which I'm loving, but I'm learning as I go. I also I think it's really important to share because it gives you context as to why I'm so passionate about this subject. I'm clearly not. I grew up in Bradford and when I first moved to London, even my accent, I found, was a barrier in terms of some of the work and some of the way that people perceived me, and it got me thinking about diversity and accessibility. My mum is a wheelchair user, my little sister is gay.
Speaker 2:I have mixed heritage and so I've always sort of noticed difference and been aware of it and, moving into the world of talent, I just realised how tricky it is actually, and I am from such privileged background and whilst, and if I found it tricky, how is it for other people? I'm also a relatively young female leader, which you know comes with its own challenges. My exact board is made up of four men who are, I'm going to say, substantially older, but they were like that they're older than me, and so I sit in a fairly male dominated environment, so I'm passionate about it. From my own experiences, I also think that recruitment has such an important part to play in creating a more equitable society. Moving into tech, some of the stats have been quite shocking, actually, about some of the gender differences, and I genuinely believe now there is a crucial opportunity for businesses to really change the landscape, not only of tech but of society, because more and more technology is how society function, and so that's why I'm here today to talk to you about this stuff.
Speaker 1:Incredible. You are a perfect example of ladies that we love to come on here and share that they fell into tech, that they unexpectedly fell into tech and that they love working in tech. I've actually never heard somebody say I fell into tech and I really regretted it Just the different routes in. That is basically why Spill in the team was created to hear the different routes that ladies take into the tech sector, and that you don't have to be computer science graduate, you don't have to work in a technical role, you don't have to be a coder, that you can come into the tech industry and work in lots of different disciplines and be successful.
Speaker 1:And you're a perfect example of somebody that has done that. And it sounds as well like you're so personally invested in it as well with your own story which is great to hear and have noticed that as a young female leader as well, that you know it's now almost a personal, it's a, it's a mission to make sure that you don't pull up the ladder behind you and that you find other ways to to encourage more women into the industry. So today's conversation is going to be a good one, because there's lots of things invested in your story that I want to touch upon. You mentioned a little bit about stats and what it basically looks like for ladies out there. Can we get started with? How would you describe the current landscape of gender diversity within the tech industry, specifically when it comes to hiring and compensation practices?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. We've done quite a lot of work in looking into these stats and getting stats from our candidate base. So as a group we've got about a million candidates on the database. So in terms of that data outreach it's huge.
Speaker 2:And we do an annual census that looks at the state of the tech industry and what we found is the gender split is 84% male to 11% female, which to me was shocking. I didn't actually expect it to be that high. I knew that it was male dominated, but the starkness of the contrast felt like quite shocking. Interestingly, like in terms of compensation practices in comparison to other sectors you know, thinking about the fact that I spent the last 10 years in creative the pay gap is less. So the pay gap we found is, on average, about 3,800 pounds less than male counterparts, which is a 5% gender pay gap, which you know I'm sort of saying, oh, that's not that bad.
Speaker 2:You know, the UK average is 10%. But the challenges from my perspective, because that the pool of females that we're questioning our soul is so low Actually there are other things going on there that's impacted that what we've also found is, even from a contract perspective, women are earning about 25 pounds less a day, which is still about 5%. So there's definitely some work to be done around that. The other thing that I thought was interesting when we were speaking to clients in the tech industry around how they're hiring, attracting, retaining women, is actually half of them don't have a DNA budget in place. They're not even putting their money where their mouth is in terms of investing to make change, let alone paying people correctly.
Speaker 1:And it's still seen as a nice to have. I can't stand that phrase. Oh, it's a nice to have for us. We don't really allocate budget for it.
Speaker 2:But it's just a matter because, like, there's so many studies out there, but McKinsey and company have reported that businesses that are more restlessly does diverse at 36% more likely to make more money. So, like morally, it's the right thing to do. Morally, I believe in equity. I believe that you know, women should be paid fairly, those from other minority groups should be paid fairly. But there's also the commercial aspect of it is like it makes sense for your business. Yeah, and that's the thing that I really struggled with when I'm speaking to clients.
Speaker 2:I was listening to Jen Miller. He had on last time and she said you know the fact that so many women leave a mid level Like I was really again. I was just really shocked at that. So I thought, okay, if you've worked so hard to get in and you have in George, potentially environments that are not as inclusive as you would like, to then leave a midway point feels so disheartening. I also think that's why I wanted to share the fact that I'm a moment at the beginning like that juggle of having a job in a male dominated environment and then also knowing that there's this other part of you that's going on outside of work.
Speaker 1:It's just so disheartening that people have believing and I feel like they have to leave your right.
Speaker 1:And when Jen Miller pointed that out and another fantastic lady that was that was on here is you almost can't believe in this day and age that ladies say that, and I've heard that a lot from the ladies who felt they were worried to tell their employer that they were pregnant or that they were wanting to start a family and what would happen and the consequences of that. We've heard ladies that have left industries to try and find something a bit more flexible fallen into tech because of the benefits that flexibility can offer you with working tech. Lots of ladies that work in tech that have come back from maternity leave and said you know what? I got a promotion when I came back and why was I so worried? And when you proudly said I'm a mum of one, you didn't say. You said you know I was going through the merger and you know it was just part of what was happening at that time in my life and it was, you know madness, but it was great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I believe that women can have it all. It's working out what their role is and what, ultimately, sacrifices or boundaries you put in place to make that work. And I think the challenge with that being so little women in the sector from our data is that you really have to be confident enough to stand your ground and say no, this is my boundary around my child, this is my boundary around you know my relationships, this is my boundary around my mental load. Actually that we're dealing with that. There isn't a safety in numbers in the same way that there may be in other sectors, which I think is incredibly challenging now, whilst I am in a male dominated board. They all have children and they are all very respectful of the fact that I have a child and family comes first. But that's around the inclusive practices and that's and there's lots of little things that you can do that make women feel comfortable and more confident to put in those boundaries that a lot of businesses I don't think do do and a lot of them don't cost money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree, they're just. They just even having the thought is, you know, and even a group that gets together and thinks how can we make things better?
Speaker 1:as you mentioned a lot of those things are free. So, moving on to the hiring processes, I wanted to tie that in with what you just said. And what can businesses actually do that? What can they do to modify their hiring processes to be more inclusive, to ensure that women are given equal opportunities, because I suppose it's it's hiring to get the ladies in and then also, as you said, retaining them whilst they're within the company as well? What about just getting the ladies through the door?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So we have always thought about what are the practical things that we can put in place that help companies attract and retain women. Often clients will come to me and say I want to hire diverse talent, but they're not willing to change that process in any way, which makes my job near on impossible. What we try and do is come up with really practical and actionable based things that people can put into their business. So the first one that we've mandated and we won't work with a client if they don't do it is something called Earn your Worth, which is a campaign that we launched several years ago, which means we do not ask anybody male, female, non-binary, doesn't matter what minority background they come from. We don't ask them their current salary. We ask them their skills, what they are looking for, based on their skills and experience. Because what we believe happens is if you judge somebody based on what they're earning and they're already under earning then you only offer them a small increase. And we've actually got live examples of this where we've worked with clients and we've said this is the candidate, this is the woman that we're going to put forward, here's all their skills and experience. They are looking for the top end of your sales, your salary bracket. The client has then hired that person and then turned around to us afterwards and said hang on, they were earning 15 grand less. I could have got them for Lord's cheaper. Pushback is yes, but you thought that their skills and experience was worth that. And what we know from lots of research is the more women feel valued in their roles, the more confident they feel, the more likely they are to stay in businesses.
Speaker 2:So the first thing is really simple. Any hiring manager, any talent team you don't ask candidates what they're earning. You ask them what they're looking for. Now there comes some education around. What is the going rate in the market?
Speaker 2:We have a salary survey. There are lots of other recruiters that have salary surveys. There's lots of things out there that you can do to benchmark your salary. You might not go into high because expectations on you are much higher then and you might lose the opportunity. But it's about being honest about what you think your skills and experience are worth, and then it's about the company having very clear parameters around. Okay, at this experience. This is the bracket which will create equity. The second thing that I think is really important and I think is trickier in some roles in tech, which is skills based hiring, and I think the challenge we have within tech is there is a lack of women that have some of the skills needed in order to do, as you said, some of the more technical roles. And that's around us encouraging more women to move into STEM subjects when they're at school and move through university.
Speaker 1:But there's also around.
Speaker 2:What are the other roles within the business where we could hire based on skills, not necessarily experience. So are there people that have relevant skills from a different sector that you could move in? And I've spoken to clients who've said actually, do you know what? We'll look at people from a finance background because they have the regulatory experience needed to be working in technology, but and we can teach them the bit that they need to know about this specific sector. We believe that that would increase your talent pipeline by 10 times.
Speaker 1:It is most of our community, absolutely so. Many of our ladies say I'm moving from another sector, I don't have the experience, but I have a lot of fantastic skills, soft skills that I want to bring with me. How do I get a job? And then it's, the reality bites. You actually go and try and get that job and the employer is only saying, well, I actually only degree in computer science and that's it. But that lady has been in work 10, 15 years and she's got brilliant skills and just knows that being in a workplace compared to the graduate. But you're absolutely right, you just summed up our entire community there.
Speaker 2:I also think it's about businesses not working in an echo chamber. You know you need fresh ideas, you need fresh perspectives. I think there has been the last 18 months of showing that, particularly when you look at some of the huge enterprise businesses, the Googles, the Facebooks of the world they were working in such echo chambers that they believed their own hype and they believed that they would continue growing and then up. You know they've had to make huge sets of redundancies, whereas if they potentially I don't know if they potentially have perspectives that were not in their own echo chamber, they may have foreseen some of the things that were coming down the pipeline. So I think it's about diversity of thought as much as it is around diversity of people and gender. There are things like unconscious bias training and I think this is incredibly important around making people aware of their own unconscious biases and how that may affect things.
Speaker 2:One of the questions I often ask clients is they say I want to hire a woman and I say, okay, great. How are you going to facilitate that woman feeling included in your all male team, especially now that businesses have worked, moved more to a remote first model and a lot of clients go. What do you mean They'll just start fitting? But I think it's about understanding the biases that sit around. Just people being people, we all have them and it's something that you know. Now there are training courses out there that are super cheap. You can put lots of people through them. I have actually done a train the trainer so I can train people to do it. You know so. It's a really simple thing, but it actually has huge impact in the inclusivity and I think you know, as we've touched on, one of the challenges is not just getting them in but keeping them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel every day as well when they're at work. You're right, it's completely met an unconscious bias, because I wanted to touch upon it and how you know companies can identify and eliminate that. And you just mentioned it there with, you know, presenting people on courses and just pointing out to people that, in case you hadn't noticed, you know these things are here because, you're right, People if you, even if it isn't all male team, they might not notice how they are affecting that lady. It doesn't mean to say that those men are doing something necessarily wrong and what they're doing is is vindictive in any way. It's just they haven't noticed.
Speaker 1:I had a lady on here last week and she said she'd been in work 30 years and she was saying you know, back in the day I used to just go along with things that were happening. And she said things like I tried to do things to fit in because people didn't realize that I was having to do things as a woman that I didn't want to do. She said I had to learn to play golf because I wanted to go along to the events and all the events were men playing golf. She said I had to force myself to learn. But if somebody had just said, actually, hey, the ladies on this team might not be up for that, or can we try something new? Then it's just making sure that people are aware of how other people are feeling. And she said now, looking back, she wishes that she'd just said actually, I'll be in the spa if you need me, not on the golf course.
Speaker 2:And I guess it's all of the things that unconscious bias can lead to not being said as well. And what I'm more meaning is people don't ask questions about how women manage their children if they have them because they're terrified of getting it wrong. So they either might make an assumption or this person's definitely going to need flexible working, part-time hours, like it's a negative thing. Or they don't say how do you manage your life? They're not asking person questions because they're terrified of getting it wrong. And actually, from my experience of working with more diverse sets of people just people in my opinion, they're not diverse, they're just different. It's about leaning into asking some of the questions and saying how does work for you and how do you manage that and what else do you need and how can I make it easier for you? If you're not aware of the biases in the first place, if it doesn't come up for you in your life, you might not be aware to ask it about other people. So it's something that is so simple but has such a huge effect on and not only the people that you're trying to attract, but also the people that are already in your business, because there's so much diversity of thought that is impacted by how you're asking the questions and the people that you work with.
Speaker 2:There are just two other things.
Speaker 2:The first thing is around having inclusive job descriptions and really tweaking some of the language.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of studies around the fact that if you use more quote, unquote aggressive language, then you are more likely to attract men versus something you know arguably more sort of friendly language, and I think that sometimes can go a long way in getting people to apply.
Speaker 2:The main thing for me, the thing that I am so, so passionate about, is transparent salary bandings. That's the thing for me that if the businesses that adopt a really transparent model about how they pay their staff and how they move people through the salary bandings and is going to be the way that I think people will attract women and diverse talent. Only 16% of UK businesses disclosed all of their peer packages to their workforce last year. It's just been made a law in the EU that it's going to be something that's mandated more and more, so I think it is going to come up more and more with businesses and I just think that so much of the diversity and inclusion actually comes from a place of equity, comes from women feeling like they belong there and if they can see okay, this is what people are learning my business and I am equal with them, or I'm aspiring to be them, but I can see the gap about where I'm trying to get to that's, that's for me the game changer, definitely.
Speaker 1:Yes, because I wanted to touch upon what organizations do you know? In regards to that pay gap, you, you're right, it's not just getting people in, it's retaining them as well. I remember going for a job and I put forward what I was hoping for for a salary, and and I got the job, and then there was this feeling throughout that whole job that actually I had gone into low and it was like this undercurrent that the kind of other people knew that my predecessor was paid a lot more than me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was just that feeling that stayed with me and I thought I just didn't get off on a good foot and you know is. And then you take that with you in every day and because they weren't transparent about, you know what the people, what the person before and and what they think that you know you match those skills and you've gone right into the same role. But because I said what I was hoping for, they just looked lovely. We saved a lot of money there.
Speaker 2:It's the the.
Speaker 2:You know, when people talk about value, yes, there is the monetary value of the amount that you are paid, but intrinsically, a lot of people link that value to the value that they have in the role that they do.
Speaker 2:And if they have an inkling that they are underpaid, that they're not being paid fairly or the other people around them are being paid more than them without the clarity as to why, you know there should be clear salary bandings and I want to be surrounded by people that earn more money than me, because they it means that they're better than me and I can learn from them what. And that is inspiring and I'm really clear about how I'm going to increase my value, not only in terms of salary but in terms of my skill set, because it's clear and it's there for you. It's when it's sort of whispers and I think that's you know, one of the themes as we're talking that seems to be coming out is like, if you're not transparent about how you're doing things and the processes that you have in place, it creates elements of doubt and ultimately, because women are so sought after, because we're brilliant and we'll leave.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and you're right. It is those careless whispers and when somebody spots something that goes out on LinkedIn with an accidental salary band I've seen that as well where people go hang on a minute, you know, because the company hasn't been transparent and you think that's not fair, or why is it that it's a new person that would get more than me, whereas I've been here you know X amount of years, and it makes that person feel like, well, I'm going to dust off my CV now and come find somewhere else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even if, after a few weeks, I think they notice and I think, oh gosh, somebody put out a salary badge, you know the damage is already done and the trust you know, one of the things that I've seen over the last couple of years and the impact of the pandemic, and then you know the post COVID boom and everybody hiring is there is a lack of trust with people, with their employers, and because COVID was so, you know, traumatizing for so many people, people look to their employer to look after them and those clients that broke that trust that it's really really hard to get back and I think, I think it has huge impacts on who decides to stay here.
Speaker 1:And when you have those conversations with people that say you know, I've been at this company for 10 years, 20 years, and you look into why they're staying at that company. One of our partners recently told me I was talking to a couple of ladies that work at that partner and they said a lot of people here they don't want to leave. They approach their managers or their management team and ask what other opportunities are there, whether they're in that department, even in a different department, but nobody has that feeling that they want to leave that company. And there's something special about a culture like that where they can retain their people, even if that person thinks I want a new challenge and I want to try something new, but I don't want to leave this company, which is quite rare, as you said, after the pandemic.
Speaker 2:I think it's funny. It's one of the things that my chairman, jack is a man taught me at a young age. I was I think I've just turned 30 when I was promoted to the board and he taught me about a business theory called Queen Beath Syndrome, which is when women get to the top and, as you said, they pull the ladder up, they're terrified about being found out and so they kill all the other women around them. And if you can find businesses that cultivate a culture that celebrates diversity, celebrates people wanting different things at different times in their life, and cultivates that trust, then in the syndrome disappears and actually people then celebrate other people. Yeah, I think that's so important. That's when people really get to keep people, but that comes with, as we said, all of the little things along the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not by magic overnight. You are right. It's all of those tiny things that make that company's culture rather than just a thing. A lot of companies think you just flick a switch and one day you're diverse and everybody works together for a great company culture. But it takes a very long time and a lot of effort. Is there anything outside of approaches to compensation that basically go beyond salary, kind of like flexible working arrangements or other benefits that can help to attract and retain diverse talents?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what we've certainly seen again over the last 18 months this switch from people being remote to then these mandated days in the office is that it's really limited, particularly those that are either in roles of mothers or those that are carers, in terms of where they can go next, because there's these blanket roles that no one needs you in three days a week, nine to six, and that just doesn't work with most women's and most parents I think. I think the difference is, as we touched on a couple of times, because there is such a small pool of women in the industry, there is less confidence to be able to say I'm really sorry, I just need to leave at five and I'll log back on at 6.30. But I've got to pick up my child. So I think flexibility is really important.
Speaker 2:The other things that I think are hugely beneficial are things around parental packages. So maternity, paternity leave. One of our stats is that only a quarter of mothers took their full maternity allowance because of the cost of living crisis and I think that's something that's really prevalent at the moment and that sort of. Again, I didn't mean for it to come up, but I think that trust in women they're going to go off and have babies and take some time to develop their family and then they're going to come back. The most hireable person is a woman with two children. You know the phrase give a healthy person things to do. And I just think sometimes it's so short-sighted of businesses to say, oh no, we can't afford that package, when actually the cost of losing that person and rehiring has such huge implications on their business and ladies as well before they become parents.
Speaker 1:So of a certain age, because I've heard teams before say even joke, you don't want to stay here for long, because this isn't the place to start a family. Or it's in their mind that they think well, you know what, the package here is rubbish. So if I were to start a family in the next few years, I'm going to have to look elsewhere and don't accidentally fall pregnant in this company because I've had it. So it's almost like a joke amongst the team that you need to go before you think about that.
Speaker 2:But it's a very, very real challenge for women that anybody who is deciding to embark upon a family has to navigate in my opinion, very antiquated system around having a child and having a career at the same time because of the classic packages that are in place. Also, I think it's not just thinking about how do you cook whilst you're on maternity leave, but the impact of coming back to work. The cost of childcare in the UK, particularly in London, is horrendous. This is seven miles of my mortgage monthly and there is a real challenge for women about how do they return and how are they compensated in their return as well. And I think those women that are not earning over a certain amount really struggle because it just doesn't make sense. And lots of women end up returning and working for free because the cost of childcare is so expensive, but actually they begin to realise that they're not a right thing. So I think flexibility and looking at those maternity packages are really important.
Speaker 2:We looked at some of the information from the census from last year and some of the most desired benefits, with things like full-day allowance and, again I think, flexibility for women around having time for themselves and this doesn't have to be a parent thing I think this is a woman thing is around creating space for themselves to go, and some of that is just about having the right amount of time off, and learning and development is. 74% of people said that L&D is really important. I think making sure that not only you attract women and you retain them, but you develop them is really important as well, and a lot of people I see move because they're not given the right opportunities within their businesses, so they go. Do you know what? I have to move to be developed further, and bonus and pension is a big one. I think money is high up the list at the moment because of the cost of living crisis. Lots of people are thinking about how do we just afford it all?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and it's in times of people in other ways. You're absolutely right In terms of if you're a great company and you're giving a lot of those things and you're thinking you know what I'm trying to change my company culture, how can you then track your progress and how well that is going so you can make data-driven decisions? I mean, you mentioned the McKenzie survey earlier and the company suddenly realizing that diversity affects your bottom line and then it's good for that. How can organizations do that themselves and just track and measure things? Things are working for us or not sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I was thinking about this and I wrote down when I was thinking about it count your people, work out what the difference is, set a goal and start working towards it. Like, I wanted to come up with that sort of really intelligent response, but it's quite simple. I think it is around looking at the diversity make of your business in the first place and doing an audit and I truly believe that it's not just about gender, but I think that's important in the first instance Looking at what's the diversity make up of your business and then what do you want to get to and setting goals within it. So that's the first thing is just really managing the workforce that you have.
Speaker 2:The second thing that I think you can do is look at your org matrix of roles that you have and think about what are the roles that you could either flex on experience so If a lead engineer leaves, do you need to replace with a light, light lead engineer? Could you look at a senior engineer stepping up and therefore does it widen the pool of candidates that you can look at and enable you to hire a woman? Or are there other roles within the organisation that you could look at that skills-based, transferable experience. So being really methodical actually with this is where we are, this is where we want to get to, and these are the places where we can have maximum impact.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I just think is so important is it needs to be from the board down. Yes, it's not the mandated from a board objective. The minute it sits, unfortunately, with a people team or a HR team or it's sort of you know, given to heads of departments to be responsible for, but it doesn't sit with the board, then it won't work, because sometimes you are going to have to wait to make hires, sometimes you are going to have to spend more money to get the right people, and not just in terms of spending more money to attract the right person in the first place, but spending more money to invest in training people to get the right people in. So it has to come from a top down.
Speaker 1:You know I was going to say is there any actionable advice that you would give to tech companies looking to embark on their journey for gender diversity and inclusion? But actually you've just nailed it with that it has to come from the board and that is the place to start. And you're absolutely right, because I think sometimes, especially when you work in tech diversity a lot, you see a lot of companies that are just ticking a box and they think we've frowned some money at something or we've put somebody's logo on something and that's it. You know we've kind of done our bit. But actually when you look within that company itself and you start from the board, that's not where that tiny bit of budget come from. You know, normally it comes from their talent division, for instance, and it's this little piece of budget that has been given to try and shoo horn a couple of women into the business and it's never going to work because it doesn't actually filter through to their own company culture.
Speaker 1:People can see that. You can easily see that even from your first interview with somebody. And I think people especially now they're just more aware of you know a company's culture and it's more important to them than just salary. Salary is important, but it's far more important to know that you're interviewing with a company that seems authentic and that you're going to get on there. And, as you said, especially ladies with children, they don't want to keep moving around, they want to get in that job and they want to stay and they're that loyal employee. I think a lot of those ladies can see through their interviewer.
Speaker 2:You said you know the thing is funny because you just talked about being authentic, and that's the thing that I have written down is authenticity and, like that board, if they're an all-male board, owning their reasoning, you know it can be a very commercial reasoning. We know that investors now are instigating and saying your board has to be diverse. We need diversity of thought. We know that there is more and more pressure on businesses to deliver diverse workforces. It can be a very commercial reason why you are doing it. It can also be a moral reason that actually they have a daughter that they want to work in tech, or they have a sister that could have been amazing in tech but didn't feel like they were, you know, able to be there. So that authenticity piece of really owning it and then learning and educating yourself.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I want to do this year is run a reverse mentoring scheme, which is where I get senior men in the tech industry to be mentored by junior women Because, as I said, I think a lot of the time men are scared to ask the questions, to actually understand what would create an inclusive environment, and actually they need to be taught by young women who say, by the way, I have a period once a month and it's awesome, and just so you know, this is how you've got to manage me for that week, rather than it being something that sort of. I think there is a genuine fear that men don't know what they're doing and they're not asking yeah, or they're dragged into a room to be told off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely that they're not going to be doing something. And ultimately it's investment and some of it, and it doesn't have to be money, it can be time, and I think that's the other thing that's really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have loved everything that you said today, and I'm so pleased that you decided to come on here as a guest and share your thoughts. So, rosa, we are all really out of time, though, so thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, thank you and everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.