In this episode, join us as Maria Thorpe, Head of Data Science at 26, shares her journey of transitioning from the public sector to the private sector in the dynamic realm of technology.
Maria explores the challenges and triumphs she encountered, providing valuable insights into the importance of fostering gender diversity in the tech industry across both public and private domains. From breaking down barriers to cultivating an inclusive environment, she discusses the transformative impact of having more women actively shaping the technological landscape.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
In this episode, join us as Maria Thorpe, Head of Data Science at 26, shares her journey of transitioning from the public sector to the private sector in the dynamic realm of technology.
Maria explores the challenges and triumphs she encountered, providing valuable insights into the importance of fostering gender diversity in the tech industry across both public and private domains. From breaking down barriers to cultivating an inclusive environment, she discusses the transformative impact of having more women actively shaping the technological landscape.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the content director at she Can Code. Today we are discussing making the leap from the public sector to the private sector. I've got the wonderful Maria Thorpe, Head of Data Science at 26, with me today and she's going to share her journey of transitioning from the public to the private sector in the dynamic realm of technology. Welcome, Maria.
Speaker 2:Hi, thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us. We'd love to kick off with a bit of background about you, if that's OK, how you got into tech and your journey so far?
Speaker 2:Yes, of course. So I came in from quite an academic background. I had always loved maths and anything to do with problem solving at school, went through to study mathematics at university, loved it. Didn't really know what I wanted to do after that. It wasn't really clear what career path I should go down. I knew I didn't want to be a teacher, which a lot of friends were going into, and then I got offered the opportunity to stay on for a PhD and so I took that up and leapt at that opportunity for another four years at university. That sounded lovely.
Speaker 2:I really enjoyed that but realised that I wanted to do something that was a little bit faster moving. Because, as much as I love academic mathematics, discoveries do tend to happen on like a 50 year time scale rather than a five month time scale, and I really wanted something where I could see the outcome of it a lot faster. I was lucky enough during that PhD to do a secondment with the Houses of Parliament in their research division, and that was really fascinating. You got to see all the questions that MPs were asking, all the topics of the day that were coming up, things that constituents were asking their MPs that they then needed a bit more support on and I was in the science area of the library compiling research for them, learning about new topics. I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 2:So after I completed my PhD I applied to the Civil Service Faststream on their operational research scheme. Operational research I hadn't heard of before applying to that scheme but it's everything to do with how models work, how organisations work, absolutely anything on that kind of applied mathematics, statistic side. And I was lucky enough to get onto that, spend a couple of years on their Faststream programme before moving into kind of the normal civil service analyst kind of pathway. I moved across a couple of departments, started off in department of work and pensions, moved across to department for education a bit later.
Speaker 2:I was always working on kind of micro simulation models, forecasting all the things that I loved doing throughout my degree and then into my PhD and then I got to do them for the day job, which was fascinating but towards I've probably been six-ish years in the civil service and I was starting to see that there was less opportunity the further on I was going in terms of career progression. Within that data and technology space there's always fewer roles towards the top of an organisation but it felt like a lot of them were full of economists or they were full of kind of people from a less data background. So I started having a little bit of a look around in the private sector. I'd heard private sector salaries were better than the civil service turns out they really are. So I wrote in, eventually decided that it was time to have a look outside and made the lovely leap across to data in marketing. And I've been working at 26 now for the last couple of years Incredible journey.
Speaker 1:Can I ask a little bit about how your journey started actually, because you sound like you have quite a strong background in STEM subjects. What was that like? What? Who encouraged you in that area? Was it somebody at school? How did you fall in love with maths? I suppose is the question there.
Speaker 2:I had some fantastic teachers who encouraged me throughout my time at school, who were always really positive about the opportunities in the area and who could see kind of where you could go with it, which was just wonderful. Like it always seemed like there was that direction of maths leading through to university. Where I got a bit stuck was then at university trying to figure out what happened after that. Career services weren't that fantastic. They would try, but when it's a specialist area and you might only like part of that entire subject, obviously it gets quite difficult for them to advise you where to go and they might suggest like banking, finance, teaching, kind of your standard options, when actually there's so many things out there in data. I didn't have a clue coming out of university that I could do data in marketing. I'd have assumed I needed a marketing degree for it instead of a data degree. But actually the more I've learned about the private sector, public sector there's not a bit of industry that data doesn't touch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're a perfect example of a perfect guest on here, because that's why we love to dip into the different careers in technology. Because, you are right, so many people go to university still not quite knowing what they want to do. But they also come out the other side and nobody has told them what they can do. I mean a mathematics degree and then going on to do other things. It's an incredibly strong degree. So, you know, if the tech sector had kind of made that connection for you and pointed out to you all of these roles that you can do, you know you wouldn't have to have discovered that on your own.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I think that's one of the things I see not just in myself but in kind of a lot of the women I work with in the tech sector. It's taken a lot of us a long time to get to the area that we really love. Yeah, with very diverse journeys, which are fantastic for the kind of insight and experience they bring into the sector. But you do sometimes wish you'd been told just a little bit sooner what the opportunities were, so it wasn't quite so difficult.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, and so many ladies say that you're absolutely right. They find a squiggly career route in and then once they're in, they realise actually there were so many benefits here and to be in the tech sector. I wish somebody had told me a bit sooner. And you mentioned there obviously some great benefits about coming into tech, and you mentioned a little bit about your decisions to transition from public sector to private. You mentioned good salaries and you felt like there were more opportunities there for you to progress. Is that correct? Were there other reasons why you made the transition?
Speaker 2:I also made the transition, kind of just coming out of lockdown where I had thoroughly loved working from home quite a lot of the time. I was really happy with like a hybrid working environment but not going back to the office five times a week. That wasn't really an option in the bit of the civil service I was in at the time. There was a push to be back in the office three or four times a week, if not as much as you could be, and I really wanted to go somewhere which felt a bit more flexible, that felt like it valued you. It's a bit more of a human being with all the other things that you're trying to keep on your plate at the same time especially as a woman kind of trying to balance home and work. Sometimes it feels like you're in back to five days in the office, nine till five. I don't know how we ever managed it.
Speaker 1:I know I constantly think that you are right and I don't know how companies that are asking people to go back and do that now haven't quite realized yet you're not going to retain good talent Because, like yourself, you know, you just thought, well, I'll go somewhere else or try something different. Thankfully for the company that you ended up at.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and companies who are offering a really good work-life balance, who've managed to hit that kind of sweet spot of being in the office enough so that you can mentor teams, so that juniors can develop and still are respecting individuals, ability to manage their own workloads and to know what times they are available for calls or not, I think are really benefiting from that kind of move of talent across to those companies.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. I couldn't agree more, and in terms of I mean, they're all great benefits. Have you faced any challenges during your transition as well? How did you overcome them?
Speaker 2:I'd say the main challenge was actually applying for jobs in the private sector. The civil service doesn't often use like a CV style application form. So, having been there straight out of university, I got really used to doing the civil service type job applications where you're writing success profiles and behaviors and you're writing you're applying for jobs in a very specific way, to then move across to looking at private sector applications where they want just a CV and maybe a personal statement. It felt really scary where you're suddenly looking through a list of job requirements that are really different to how it's laid out in your current role and you assume like I've got enough confidence to think that I can probably do that role, even if I can't quite hit all of the things that is listed.
Speaker 2:But it was really hard getting used to actually writing applications in a different format and understanding the sorts of things that people wanted as experience in the private sector and how to speak the right language to learn the interviews. For example, in the public sector I might have been writing policy briefs or writing a qualities assessments and it was turning all of that into the sorted language. That was more around pitching and sales and explaining to clients and trying to show that actually, if you can do one of them, you can do the other one as well. And the good thing about data, at least, is that it is the same across most industries. You are talking the same language, but all of the peripherals around that were really quite difficult. It felt almost like the civil service was trying to trap you in just saying within that base, because those were the applications you'd always done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it sounds like you had lots of transferable skills. You just had to take a step back and think actually, on that private sector job application, I already do that. It was just the language that seemed to be trapping you, the skill transferring over sounding pretty easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even things like in the civil service. You're an analyst coming across to the private sector and going what's analytics? Is it the same thing? Is it slightly different? Is it something that I've done or not? And just understanding the different language between the sectors was tricky.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I've heard it so many times as well when ladies say I see a job application and I don't necessarily hit all of those things, so I don't apply. So it must have been even more confusing when you're looking at something, thinking I kind of think I do those things or maybe don't.
Speaker 2:All of those skills.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was the best to apply. Anyway, I went with that approach. That's a good approach. How have you noticed, then that? How does a work environment differ between public and private sectors, especially in terms of opportunities and challenges for women in technology?
Speaker 2:I've moved to working for an SME rather than a very large government department and I think for me particularly, the environment is fantastic. We have a really good diverse mix of people and I get to encounter them on a daily basis. I actually get to know people face to face, know the names of everyone you're working with, and I think that really breeds opportunity because you get to see people and you get to understand what they do, what your boss does, what your colleagues boss does, and understand how the whole organisation fits together really well. Working for a much larger company where before I was spread across kind of eight or nine locations with thousands of people, you never get to know everyone. It can feel like the opportunities are only those that are clearly advertised and in some ways that's really good because every opportunity is advertised.
Speaker 2:But it can make it more difficult if you want to carve your own path because the area you might see yourself fitting into might not currently be an actual job, it might not have a job title attached to it, but you know that your skills and experience would be really good in that area and they'd really make a benefit to the business and in that really large organisation where you might be a bit of a cog in the machine, it can be quite difficult to make that case. Smaller SME, where you know people. You can talk to people face to face. You can make that business case verbally if you want rather than in writing. It can just make that difference on giving you the opportunity to say, actually I think this is needed and I think I can go and do that. I think that's really beneficial both to me but also to the women within the organisation where it gives you a bit more ability to say I can do this, rather than just applying for roles as if you were almost an outside person coming in.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, we had a conversation on Spill in the Tea about the benefits of joining an SME as opposed to big corporates, especially if you're a young person, because you learn so much at a smaller company and it can sound scary, but to me there's no one else there to do something and you think actually, e-river, as you said, carve your own path.
Speaker 1:We think actually we're going to have to carve a path here because there is no one to help which can sound really scary at times, but you just pick up so much experience and learn so many new things that you wouldn't in a corporate. You're absolutely right and it's something that we always say. We always encourage people to join a smaller company and just see how fast placed it is and see how many things you pick up, because it's completely agree, it's a lot of fun, can be scary, but it's a lot of fun. That's what I changed for you. Though you went, you changed sectors, you went from a big company to a small company. Did you have a moment there where you thought did I do the right thing I think everyone does when you move jobs.
Speaker 2:I think I was always given the advice of don't change sector, kind of like level and like your organisation, all at the same time, and I feel like I did all three, which was an awful lot of work, and I think it's all about taking that time, stepping back a bit, accepting that, especially the first six months to a year in a brand new role, in a brand new area, you're not going to know everything and that's perfectly okay.
Speaker 2:They wouldn't have hired you if they didn't believe that you could learn it and that you could fill that role over time. So, yes, probably the first three months it was a bit of a panic on how am I going to do all of this stuff? There's so much to learn. But that's also part of why you've changed, because you want something new, you want to learn, you want to do things differently and over those two years here it's been fabulous, bringing together kind of the best of what I'd learned in the civil service with the new marketing areas, learning from the team here and understanding how we can do things better by all working together and bringing our collective experience.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and having gone to a company that encourages that as well, so, so, so important I mean that journey could have been. You know, if you landed in a company and you thought, actually this really isn't for me trying to figure out, is it because I moved industries, company size, or is it the company itself? Luzia, could figure that out where you went On that. You mentioned a couple of times about working in a diverse team and you get to know everybody and the benefits of having a diverse team. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about why you believe it's crucial to have more women in the tech industry and how does diversity contribute to innovation and success. Do you think?
Speaker 2:I think it's crucial because it creates innovation and success for a business. Diversity across kind of gender and other characteristics is so essential, especially within a data area. When you have a really diverse team, both in terms of how people think about problems, approach them, they are able to see new ways of doing things, you're able to create that innovation and people are less likely to just follow the old way of doing things just because that's how it's always been done. I think I especially see it when we might be approaching new data sets and people from different outlooks will look at them and have completely different opinions on all the additional data we can enrich them with or the robustness of the data. Given what they know about different sectors of society, what they've learned from their past experience, it gives a really different outlook on what they're seeing, what they're using, how they're working with that, and some of it is about people deciding to come into the industry.
Speaker 2:It can seem really scary coming into kind of a tech industry. There's often only a few women in a meeting. It's getting better and better, but it's very rare that you are in a tech business and it's female dominated. But on the other hand, that means there's so much more opportunity in the area, like it's crying out for people to come and work here from lots of different backgrounds in order to make it better and better. But businesses have their part to play in that as well by making it a really welcoming environment, and that might be from providing really great maternity packages parental packages and that's part of. One of the first things I asked about when I came to 26 was what is your maternity package like? What's your parental package like, not just for me, but for all of the rest of the team I'd be working with, to know that they would be supporting them, that your team would be able to come back, feel welcomed, feel supported, and 26 has fantastic benefits packages around supporting their diverse workforce that I'm really proud to be part of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's always nice to hear that, because I spoke to a lady on here. She told me that she's very nervous about going on maternity leave and she was nervous about telling her boss. And it's just, it's strange in his day and age that she was nervous about having to say I'm pregnant and I'm going to need to take some time off. And she said I was so surprised when they were fine with it not only fine with it I was promoted. And by the time she came back she was promoted and she said everything was fine.
Speaker 1:But there's still that feeling around you know, is my employer going to be okay with that and do they want to retain good staff and provide them with good packages like that, which is quite worrying. There's also still that feeling around. You mentioned the feeling of coming into the tech industry and I completely agree with that. It's quite daunting as an industry.
Speaker 1:People that are not that don't work in tech. They think they have to be very techie. They have to have computer science degree, be techie. Your day is coding and that is why we tried to talk about all the different jobs that you can do and that you don't have to be a coder and you don't have to come from a computer science background, because you are right, it is almost like the tech industry has a very bad PR problem and you have to be very techie. And I take it on your team that a lot of your colleagues are just from all different backgrounds and you don't look at any of them as if they're that nerdy, techie geek that you're all working together in a team and you're all that stereotype. Oh, we're definitely not.
Speaker 2:I will happily code all day, but I think it's actually the communication skills and the relationship building skills that are what's common across my team at the moment. Everyone is numerate and is able to problem solve, but in very different ways. Some might be coders, others are problem structuring and others are more about actually communicating with a client and bringing in the strategy, and all of it is essential together to create an end to end data strategy and data deliverables for a client. You have to understand what they need in order to be able to deliver for them, and you can't do that unless you can communicate effectively about data and technology. So I'd say, like for most of us here, coding is probably a tiny part of what we do. An awful lot more of it is all around dating, literacy, data communication, data strategy and an analysis, which is not necessarily just coding.
Speaker 1:Yes and all those wonderful soft skills as well that you would have learned from the public sector and previous jobs that you've just transferred into technology. That is just as important as technical skills. On that, do you have any advice for other women that are considering a career in the tech industry, whether that's publicly called or private?
Speaker 2:Oh, good question.
Speaker 1:I'm here, but not as well, but I think that's what it does.
Speaker 2:Sorry, can you also hear anything? I can hear a lady. Damn it. Give me two moments. I think our meeting has just started next door and I think it's quite loud. Hang on, let's see if our slightly more soundproof booth works. That seems positive.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's better. Yes, I'm going to picture this question again so you're not doing it cold. What advice do you have for women considering a career in the tech industry, whether in the public or the private sector?
Speaker 2:I think the best advice I could give is Yikes. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Let me think Is there something that you wish someone had told you? Perhaps when you were younger? That kind of dawned on you years later.
Speaker 2:Yes, actually there is. So the best advice I can give is not to undervalue their skills. It can be really tempting if you're coming into the tech industry from a different sector, to look at entry level jobs, even though you might have been in your industry three, five, ten years and you're thinking about a change. All those soft skills are so important.
Speaker 2:Yes, upskilling to do a role in the tech industry is important, especially if you're moving into something that's quite different, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to start all over again. You should be looking at yourself as a rounded individual moving across who's got this breadth of experience that the tech industry is crying out for, and now you've got these extra tech skills and now you're looking to build these extra tech skills and the industry will look for that. It's really hard when you're applying for jobs and you're looking through the list of what the criteria are, but it's definitely worth putting those applications in, working with recruitment consultants who know their companies they're working for, who know what sort of role you're moving into and can really support you in getting that first role back into the tech industry.
Speaker 1:Yes, so many of our listeners are career transitioners and we get asked that a lot on our live events about transitioning for the first time.
Speaker 1:And your advice is spot on just to not undervalue your skills and your soft skills when you do come in for the first time, because so many ladies they come in and then they think, actually I'm starting as a junior again. I'm actually very experienced, but I'm starting in a junior position and it's almost to you know, as you said, you've figured out yourself how to transfer those skills, even with a different language, from public to private sector and just thinking you know what I can do, that I'm finding a good company that will give you the chance or help you to progress to your next step as well. But I completely agree there are so many great tech companies that are just crying out for ladies that have money that they require and will help you get to the next part. So it's great advice for our ladies. Are there key lessons from your own journey that you wish someone had shared with you earlier in your career?
Speaker 2:I don't think I really believed that. It's kind of the phrase that it's not what you know, it's who you know. And it's only as I've moved through my career that I've realised the importance of networking and it is so essential to build up that network, especially of other women in the industry, where you can find out what they're doing, how they've got to their career areas, what their wiggly journey was through to tech, and everyone is willing to share their experience, what they've struggled with, what they found beneficial. And it's so important when you're then looking for those next jobs to have that set of industry contacts. So I think that's probably the key bit that I feel I might have learnt a bit later than everyone else, but I got there in the end.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, but I'm just finding that community. You're absolutely right sharing those stories. Some of those stories are not always great stories and that's great to share as well, because so many times you see an Instagram post of somebody's launched a business and this was me three years ago and look how great my company took off. Probably wasn't as smooth as that. We want to hear all of the ups and downs throughout as well.
Speaker 1:And you're right, those just so squiggly career paths that it's sometimes things don't work out or you try something else, or it's OK to move companies and learn something new. And the more that you hear that ladies are giving things a go and finding different routes in is just so, so encouraging for other ladies. So I completely agree with you Finding a great community that can really help you with that is key. Obviously, we advocate for she Can Code community, but there are lots of other wonderful communities that we partner with as well at she Can Code, so it's definitely finding your tribe. As we say, maria, we're already out of time. Thank you so much for taking the time out to chat with me today. It's been an absolute pleasure hearing about your journey.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. It's been lovely being on here, looking forward to listening to all of the other women you have on coming up.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I'm sure our listeners would definitely find your journey inspiring. So thank you. Thank you for joining and to everybody listening. Thank you so much for joining us, as always, and we hope to see you again next time.