In this episode, we delve into the art of setting and maintaining healthy boundaries while juggling the demands of a thriving career and parenthood.
Three amazing women in tech from Capco - Eve Bjonness, Senior Consultant; Irene Symeonidou, Principal Consultant; and Lilian Camargo, Cyber Risk Manager – will share their own practical strategies and expert insights to ensure that you can excel both in your professional life and as a dedicated parent.
Discover actionable tips, personal anecdotes, and transformative mindset shifts that empower working parents to foster a harmonious balance, ultimately leading to success on both fronts.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
In this episode, we delve into the art of setting and maintaining healthy boundaries while juggling the demands of a thriving career and parenthood.
Three amazing women in tech from Capco - Eve Bjonness, Senior Consultant; Irene Symeonidou, Principal Consultant; and Lilian Camargo, Cyber Risk Manager – will share their own practical strategies and expert insights to ensure that you can excel both in your professional life and as a dedicated parent.
Discover actionable tips, personal anecdotes, and transformative mindset shifts that empower working parents to foster a harmonious balance, ultimately leading to success on both fronts.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone and thank you for tuning in again. I am Kayleigh Bateman, the Content Director at She Can Code. Today, we are discussing how to set healthy boundaries as a working parent and still be successful. In this episode, we're going to delve into the art of setting and maintaining healthy boundaries while juggling the demands of a thriving career and parenthood. I've got three amazing women in tech from Capco today. It's a very special treat for us. We've got three of them. We've got Eve, Irene and Lillian. Welcome ladies. Thank you for joining us on the podcast today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your days. We're going to start with some intros, if that's okay, to set the context for each of you. Eve, shall we start with you? A little bit about you, please.
Eve Bjonness:Yeah, hi everyone. My name is Eve Bjonness. I've been with Capco for around three and a half years. My work is a senior consultant in the regulatory space and I'm also the lead for our parents and carers network in Scotland.
Kayleigh Bateman:How did you fall into tech? Are you one of them?
Eve Bjonness:I'm not actually tech. I think this came up maybe before we were discussing that. I'm actually not on the tech side, so work as a consultant, as I say, in a regulatory space, but obviously as part of this discussion today, with me being a lead for the parents and carers network. I think that's where my contributions were coming into this, but I'm looking forward to hearing about some of the others that do work in tech.
Kayleigh Bateman:I t Irene yourself.
Irene Symeonidou:Hi, my name is Irene. I'm a principal consultant at Capco. I've been at Capco for five and a half years now. I most of the roles I take on are product roles, so I'm generally a product owner, product manager on the client side and within Capco I'm part of the technology leadership team, so I run the part of the team where we organize how we share our knowledge between the teams. So it's really important when we come off clients or when we're on clients to make sure that we're all talking to each other and sharing knowledge and lessons learned we get from clients and different projects. As we know, technology changes quite quickly. I am a mom of one two and a half year old boy and I expect another one.
Kayleigh Bateman:And do you come from a traditional computer science background, or what was your journey? I
Irene Symeonidou:no I. So my journey started I studied linguistics and then I went off and did a PhD in cognitive development, developmental cognitive neuroscience slash linguistics. So I looked at social cognition development in teenagers and I basically switched careers when I joined Capco through their fellowship program. So they have a fantastic program where you can join if you come from a PhD background, from any sort of background. So I had some technology experience there because I my experiments used technology such as eye tracking in EEG, so I was exposed to like big data and some technologies there. But then I decided to switch careers and leave academia and that's how I joined Capco basically.
Kayleigh Bateman:Amazing. Yes, our ladies love to hear how people end up working in the tech sector in some fashion. So another great story there not having to be technical, not having to be from computer science background.. Lillian yourself. Last but not least, Thank you.
Lilian Camargo:I'm Lillian Camargo. I've been Capco for two years now. I'm a senior consultant in cybersecurity department, so I lead identity and access management offering. I'm based in US and I am mother of two young ladies, which is one it's almost two and the other one it's four years old.
Kayleigh Bateman:Oh yes, and traditional background again, not into technology. Or how did you end up at Capco?
Lilian Camargo:Yeah. So I started my career 10 years ago as a software developer and I thought that would be my future. And then I was involved in regulatory requirements and I moved to cybersecurity. I joined a master degree in cyber risk and strategy and I would like to you know, at that point I joined Capco to leverage all my knowledge from school.
Kayleigh Bateman:Incredible. Well, ladies, you all have very different backgrounds and it's going to be a really good discussion today to hear about how you set healthy boundaries as well at work as a parent. So we're going to jump straight into that discussion and I'm going to ask you what does it mean to set healthy boundaries as a working parent? If perhaps you can kick us off with that, what do we mean by healthy boundaries?
Eve Bjonness:Yeah, and so just to say in my intro, I fail to mention that I do actually have two sons, which is a bit rid of me completely forgetting that I am also a parent.
Eve Bjonness:I have two boys who are 12 and six. So, yeah, just that adds into, obviously, the mix of everything that we do here working, but, yeah, so healthy boundaries, I mean. I think it's the ongoing kind of struggle really for anyone that is a parent and is working, like there's no, I think you kind of come to the realization there's no magic answer, there's no one answer to it, and it is a constant kind of juggle of what's going on and reprioritizing as you go. I'm quite lucky that my husband works different sort of shift work so that that can in some ways be not so great, but also in other ways, you know, he's there for around a lot of the time. You know days that maybe we have to go to the office or events that we may have on. It means he is not actually working as well. And I do have sort of great support around me in terms of grandparents as well that help a lot with her, with with kids, but I do think, as well as having that help. Like you say, you do have to set boundaries, you do have to have a cut off point of a day.
Eve Bjonness:I think the working from home that came in, that came along with COVID, that we all weren't used to in some ways, was a bit of a struggle. You go, you know I go, directly from this room, I'm sitting in and I walk out and you know I'm into the chaos of, you know, kids home from school, homework, cooking, dinner, whatever it may be. You don't even get that commute home to sort of unwind and you know, maybe listen to some music or read a book or whatever that may be. And so there's a little bit of that is that it's almost sometimes like taking yourself away. I like to try, and you know, go for a run or go to the gym and just have some time to completely switch off and still, you know, reset before you go back into that sort of two separate roles, whether you know, coming from work and to parenting.
Eve Bjonness:And but I do think you know I try not to, when I've logged off of an evening, sort of have to go back to it unless it's something really necessary and try and really look at you know that like this is my time now with the kids. You know, whatever time you know, post tea they've all got. We've got event, we've got activities every night of the week now between the two of them. So it's you know there isn't really any time to be doing a lot of evening working and you know I'm not one to be sitting up till all hours in the morning and I'm not. You're not going to get the best out of me those hours. So I think it's just, you know, understanding the hours that you are at work are like really focused and really you know you have to do what you need to do in that time.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, it's so interesting when you mentioned that there's no commute home and you, you're absolutely right. I think it took a long time for people, and especially with lockdown, just to differentiate the difference between leaving that room and separating that as work and home. And, and you know, a lot of us have gone into hybrid working and it's so, so important to have to separate the two because, you are right, you don't have that commute, you don't have that time on your own and obviously it can start to start to take its toll. I love the fact that you mentioned that your husband of shift works which is a few ladies actually on this podcast have said when, when you work for a company, sometimes parents are slightly more loyal, loyal employees and say graduates, because the fault of having to change your routine sometimes just sounds like hell, and if somebody works shifts that can be slightly easier mentally.
Kayleigh Bateman:because it must. It must be tough if something changes in your day. How to to jump, yeah, and there's a sort of rolling shift pattern.
Eve Bjonness:So no, two weeks are the same. So there'll be days he's working they shift and I'm going to the office, so that's like we're all out the house. So who's picking up the kids from school? There are then nights. He's working night shift and so I'm maybe trying to get back home before he leaves, and then he's coming in in the morning, I'm leaving, so there is a little bit of juggling.
Eve Bjonness:It and, as I say, the kids you know the kids have activities literally every night of the week and so, again, a juggle of who's doing, who's dropping who where, who's picking up, where are we going. But it's just there on top of it sometimes, and I think it's that mental load that looks like it's going to be. It's a lot to remember, to do. There's a lot of just what's, and particularly now the past few weeks, december it's just like madness, like every other week, it's what the Twitter Christmas jumper, there's Christmas Lancer's a Christmas party, there's like just everybody bringing money for this or that. You know, it's just.
Eve Bjonness:It's just a nonstop kind of juggle of everything but and I think that's what you need to just it's almost keeping on top of it but and just being realistic and taking it almost like a Christmas party and realistic and taking it almost like for me it's really to week, like what's happening this week, what's on, what are we both working, when's I need to be in the office, who can help us, and then you just, you know, deal with it later. I used to get, I think, a bit caught up in the longer term and we can't keep doing this for months and it's a real struggle and it's like you need to just look at, you know what's in the calendar this week, at work as well as at home, and like so what do we need to do? And deal with it that way.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, definitely. I saw on LinkedIn recently a post where somebody had said a new appreciation for my colleagues at a parents because, you're right, it was Christmas jumper day, it was carol services, there was an activity and he was.
Eve Bjonness:all these things I've literally just come back from my son's Christmas concert as well, which was really nice, but he's like the first one on singing a song and you don't want to be rude when you got sent through all these other classes of songs and I'm like, really do it leaving. But I don't want to be rude. I'm trying to get in the festive spirit as well and not totally kill all Christmas vibes at the moment. But yes, it's just a non stop.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, I mean, what about yourself when it comes to setting healthy boundaries? I mean December's one thing, but what do you think it means to set healthy boundaries at work as a parent?
Irene Symeonidou:Yeah, december is definitely not the month where we set any boundaries. It's all up for grabs, as you saw from trying to reschedule this podcast. Yeah, I guess for me it's. So I think you've touched on this a little bit. So COVID brought on a lot of like positive things.
Irene Symeonidou:So the shift from not having to travel, from being home, from having that more flexible hours concept and really depends on client to client, because with Capcos and to our consultancy, it does depend on the client environment you have. But so far I've been lucky where you can just be. You know my boundary is I'm around and I get my job done. But you have to be flexible that at 5pm I'm going to turn off my computer to go pick up my son and I might log on later. So I'm very strict about the time where you know I'll go and pick him up. I'm very strict about that. I always try to make that time to go and pick him up, bring him home. There's some exceptions, but that's only if my husband can do it and if not I'm very strict about that and then I can log on afterwards and do the work. So so long as, like, you're fine with me getting the work done within the day.
Irene Symeonidou:My boundary is I need to be flexible throughout the rest of the day so I can, you know, make sure to meet my son's needs. And that can be like on sick days. I think COVID with, if you know, pre COVID I don't think you could stay home with your, your child, and work, and now you can stay home with them and also work, and you know you'll work when they're napping or when they're they've gone to bed, so you'll still end up not missing. You know you don't have to take a day off from your holidays to fulfill that, so that's really helpful. So I just have like very, very small rules, but I'm very strict about them and I try to follow them and I think so far that has helped, worked and helped. So I don't know what to that's still going to be be possible and as they grow and they go to school, because right now it's just that nursery. So nursery has, you know, a bit more flexibility than actually being in school. But let's see.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, yeah, until there'll be more changes along the way, that, yes, at least you know you've set that boundary work and then people can just be mindful of that around that time of the day. That you're going to disappear does not to expect things from you, and you know, you yourself. But what do you think it means to set healthy boundaries? As a mama to girls, yeah.
Lilian Camargo:So I think even Irene they mentioned things that I also practice in my routine. There is a moment of the day that we disappear, of course, and it's super important to be honest with our colleagues and clients that hey 530. I won't be available for any other meetings, but if you need, you know, just to wrap up a document is like the deck I can, I happy to do it after eight, when kids are are sleeping. This is something that I would like to emphasize is that I do not negotiate my routine with my kids during this two hours, right. So that's the moment that I want to be present with them.
Lilian Camargo:So I don't want to sacrifice the time, it's just I want, I struggle, to be productive during my, my, my day, and but I don't want to sacrifice the time that I'm with my kids. So I really like to, you know, be transparent with everyone. But really, you know, since we we have less commute hours, that's the moment that I try, even when I need to go to the office. That's the moment that I use to, you know, just to transition my mindset and prepare for the day. So put together my to do list, try to be productive when I'm in the office or even during the day when I'm working, I'm really working. I try to not switch gears to motherhood and try to finalize during this, during this hours.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, I agree, I love the fact that you used to have a transparency and just being honest, because I wanted to ask you all next about how do boundaries contribute to a healthier work-life balance? And, Lilian, what you just said there about just being transparent, that just helps with a healthy work-life balance, doesn't it? Because if you're just open and honest with your colleagues, then they're not expecting you to be around at a certain time or they might contact you at 5.30 in the day and not hear from you and you think, well, I was honest, but actually it's easier for that person as well. It's easier for your colleagues to respond to that because they know when to expect you and when not to expect you and it doesn't leave them feeling frustrated either and it just all around makes everybody just feel a lot healthier, whether you're a parent or not a parent and working with other parents. Being transparent just helps fair people, doesn't it?
Lilian Camargo:Yeah, absolutely it helps. I know that sometimes time is critical and I'm happy to jump back to work when I'm available. But today we have teams, we have emails and we're constantly with our phones. We can quickly chat and say hey, I'm unavailable, but in an hour we can jump in the call. Or even if your kid is sick Irene just mentioned that now, post COVID, we can work from home even though the kid it's not 100%, but we still can handle both together. I know it's a little bit stressful those days but yeah, we can overcome.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, Irene, you did mention about working from home now and how things have changed and how do you think boundaries contribute to a healthier work life balance and setting those boundaries. That was quite a change for us working from home, wasn't it? And having to set boundaries with colleagues about when to contact you and that you're not available 24-7.
Irene Symeonidou:Yeah. So it's funny because I actually so actually I really enjoy what I do. So in my mind I remember during COVID I would sit until like eight, nine o'clock with friends before I had kids on phone calls and stuff. But I guess I'm privileged in the fact that I actually enjoy what I do. So sometimes for me that blur wasn't setting that boundary to stop working wasn't quite as it should have been, I guess.
Irene Symeonidou:But it's interesting because I and I think Lillian mentioned it about how now you can use your phone and you can email back and message on Teams etc. And I actually love that I have that on my phone because I think it helps me a lot when I'm on the go. It makes me feel more comfortable that I'm not missing something or if something's urgent, someone will be able to reach out to me and I'll be able to respond or see it. And so it allows me to feel comfortable when I go pick up my son or I need to step aside and be with my son. I actually feel that comfort.
Irene Symeonidou:I have people telling me oh you know, like you're not very good at like setting boundaries between work and because you have everything on your phone all the time and you're always responsive. And I said, actually for me it's important that I have my work on my phone because that means that I can, I am comfortable to step out for 30 minutes and do something else with my son, because then if something does come up, I can't address it if I feel like it's urgent enough to be addressed. If I didn't have that, I think I don't think I would have been brave enough to step out and spend those 30 minutes or that hour that I needed to For me being able to respond on my phone at any point in time. Some people view it as you know, you're crossing the boundary between like working enough, but for me it's actually a survival thing. It just it's just how. It helps me feel more comfortable and be able to do my job well but also spend time with my family.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, I had a similar conversation with two ladies on here recently about setting boundaries whilst on holiday and we did say that as well. Some it makes some people feel more comfortable if you can just check your emails while you're on holiday and if there is something really urgent, at least you're there and you saw it, Whereas some people love to set that boundary I'm out of office and not looking at my emails, especially if you you know you're on a beach or something like that absolutely take the time. But it is down to that person whether or not they want to check up on things. Or if you're out running an errand and you still want to check up on a message, it does give some people some comfort just to know that everything is fine or something urgent needs to happen and you're there to respond to it. So I think it does come down to the person.
Kayleigh Bateman:You are right. Whether or not you decide to have work on your phone so you can pick it up while you're out or out of office. Then, yeah, some people that does give a little comfort. It does depend on the person, obviously, and what, what kind of boundary you've set? What about yourself? Do you agree with that? Do you have work on your phone or?
Kayleigh Bateman:had your boundaries contribute to a healthier work life balance.
Eve Bjonness:So one of the things I was actually thinking about we were talking earlier about that and it probably was through COVID as well about it I feel that there's a little bit of a shift towards probably not you know, there wasn't an expectation that and maybe particularly for parents working at home who had kids at home trying to home school, all that fun stuff we went through that. It wasn't about the you have to be logged on working from nine to five. It became a lot more about the actual output, about the deliverables. You know, like what. What is my role, what do I need to deliver? And if I'm still doing that, within whatever time I need to do that throughout the week, then it's still being done and I think a little bit of that is almost kind of carried, hopefully carried through a little bit.
Eve Bjonness:I quite like that. That. It's not about particularly in the office, you know. It's not about I have to be in the door, I have to be sat in my chair for nine, nine o'clock and I can't leave until half past five. It's like well, what are you waiting on from me? Am I behind on something? Have I not delivered on something? Like have that conversation, rather than you're not sat at your desk for eight and a half hours today. So so they're. What are you doing? Where have you gone? Do you need time off that sort of conversation, and I just thought that was quite interesting, like hopefully shifting a little bit more towards that.
Eve Bjonness:That it's about what you're actually delivering on rather than just that time sat at your desk doesn't necessarily make you productive and make you know the job that you're doing any better and you work less as well when somebody's picked up on oh, you were five minutes late, you think let's out.
Eve Bjonness:Absolutely.
Eve Bjonness:I think it's that flexibility.
Eve Bjonness:I think if employers are flexible with you and understand that, yeah, you know you'll be doing a drop off one morning, so you're going to be a later, but and I'm a bit like that If I don't have to do the kids drop off, I'm probably in the office quite early. I'm probably in need of it. It is a day I'm going to the office. You know be there maybe for eight o'clock, whereas there may be times I have to do drop off, so I'm not coming into like after nine and you do still have that sense of walking in and everyone sort of already sat down. But I think it's that flexibility of understanding like, well, yesterday I was in an hour earlier and I'm coming in an hour later today, or half an hour later today, because I had to do some drop off, you know, and I'll be here a little bit later tonight because I don't need to rush off for the pickup.
Eve Bjonness:And I think if your employer is flexible with you on that, then let you see you become more flexible, Whereas if somebody's very stringently, like you know you weren't here at nine o'clock and you have to stay till half five and you know you're going to for me, anyway, I'm going to do exactly those times and you're not really going to get as much out of me as well. I think it's. There has to be that two way conversation like that, that two way flexibility, and, as you see, I think you get so much more out of people if that is how you treat them.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, yes, and it is an understanding between yourself and the employer as to, as you said, whether or not you're delivering on what you should deliver, and also that whether or not you're at your desk at nine. I remember I worked with a girl and they said, you know, be as flexible as you wish, and it is that it was very trusting workplace and but she used to come in at her past 12. And we used to think I mean, that's taking it slightly too far. I know you're working into the evening because she was having calls with clients, but it was. It was kind of like you need to be.
Kayleigh Bateman:you know, work working out, and so it is a I must have spoken wrong.
Eve Bjonness:Yeah, that's a bit extreme.
Kayleigh Bateman:Don't go too far, and all of you have spoken about setting those boundaries and that you figure out what boundaries to set for yourselves. Can I throw it out to the floor? Are there any common misconceptions about setting boundaries that you've all encountered? Was, was there anything that you kind of expected when you set that boundary and actually it didn't happen?
Eve Bjonness:I've definitely got experience. When I first had my before I was in consulting, when I first had my eldest son, I worked sort of just weeks. I only worked four days. I worked sort of slightly longer days, but only worked four days a week. So, like I think it was at that time, it was my Friday, I had off, and there was just always this kind of like oh, you're off tomorrow. You got holidays, out here on holiday, like all these. They were always said ingest, but all of it, you're off.
Eve Bjonness:I don't get paid for not being here on a Friday every week. I get 80% of my holidays, I get 80% of my pay, I get 80% of every single benefit. I'm not just warning off every Friday for a day off and not doing my work, and I'm also not doing 80% of the work. I'm one head in this work and I have 100% of the work. I just I need to get it done and 80% of the time and get rewarded 80% of it.
Eve Bjonness:So it started to grate a little bit sometimes. I know, as I say, it was generally said ingest as, oh, you're off tomorrow. That's a little luck of you. You going out for lunch for your pals and what you're doing like, no, I'm absolutely not what I'm doing and yeah, I'm not, I don't get paid for it. So you know there's I'm doing nothing wrong here, but I think that yeah, there's that misconception of flexible working. You were a bit of a part time worker and probably doing half the work, whereas I think people that do do so much more because they're trying to make up for the time they're not there that one day a week. You know you had to keep on top of everything and be sort of extra on the ball with it all.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, I was going to say that actually because there is that argument in the minute about a four day week and whether or not people are more productive within that time, and actually I've heard that so often that actually working less days as a parent, you find yourself doing more and most parents say, within that time, I am working, yeah, yeah, because I think it's just it is that it's like, as I say, it's never you know maybe, if you had a even more reduced hours and you were like a proper maybe job share type thing where you so it was half the workload you had.
Eve Bjonness:But I think, particularly with something like that, where you reduced to sort of four days, you know there's no reduction in the amount of work that's expected really, that's.
Eve Bjonness:You know you're classed as a, as one person in that to you. But, yeah, I definitely think that's the case that people feel they need to sort of you know they need to show that actually, that this works as well, because it's almost that if I can't show that this flexible working agreement is actually working and I'm still getting through the workload that I need to, then it might be taken away from me and then I will have to come in five days a week, and then that's a whole other conversation. On childcare, you know, for people it's not just nice to have that extra day off. I mean all of it's around the need to look after your children and not pay for childcare or find someone else that can look after them for that day. So I think there's always, yeah, you just pushing yourself that little bit more to prove like, no, this works, it's fine, I can do this and this job. In four days you're probably doing even more.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, yes, I've heard that often, and Irene and Lily and yourself any misconceptions when you set boundaries. Is there anything that you might be worried about, about setting those boundaries? That really surprised you.
Lilian Camargo:Actually, I would say that the main misconception was actually from my point of view. When I was not a mom, I was not so comprehensive about this flexibility that we're discussing today, and it's funny how I changed my mind. Originally I thought, yeah, you know, it's so complicated. This person with a sick kid, for instance, she's not in today. I really want to talk to her or meet her to decide this, this and that, and today, unfortunately, that's so annoying. And now it makes, you know, open my mind to see. Yeah, now I mean the other side and I feel that it's important that the family comes first and we need to understand and I'm lucky to be in a team and in a company and a client as well that understands that to understand and provides this flexibility that eventually, if you're not around, you'll be back tomorrow as effective and as organized as usual and productive as usual. So it's just the main misconception. What I'm trying to point here was from my point of view actually and it's funny how we grow around.
Kayleigh Bateman:You want to stick around either if, if, if your company didn't feel that way I'm assuming if you'd found that actually your company were how you thought they were going to be, then you know they're going to struggle to retain good talent. Good, good ladies will just keep leaving.
Lilian Camargo:Correct. Yeah, that's a good point of view, and fun fact is that we in cyber practice in US, half of the team is basically our females, which is great, so meaning that if the team was not welcoming and not supportive, we wouldn't be here, right?
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, yeah. That's always good when you join a company that has previously been so focused on making sure that its workforce is very balanced. So it is easier when people become parents and they can express their needs, which is what I wanted to ask you all about communicating your boundaries. How can working parents effectively communicate their boundaries with their employers? I mean, should we start with you? Is there a way that you can communicate your boundary with your employers, or is that something you just do upfront? Does it change as you go? You mentioned changing needs of children, so how can people do that?
Irene Symeonidou:Yeah, I think it depends on what client you are at the time and who's your line manager and the team you're working at the time. And I think it's just. You know, when I first joined if I give you a very like small example when I first joined the leadership team on the technology side in Capco, the first sort of get together call was at 5pm and I took the call but on the go, and I said I'm on the go, guys, just so you know, like this is the time I pick up my son, I'm happy to take the call, but it will be on the go, I won't be on my laptop, and that was the way I said. I'm having to take it. But this is the consequence and the response was great let's change the time so that it suits you as well.
Irene Symeonidou:So it just depends on the situation that you're in. I think you just have to find the right time and polite way to kind of phrase it. This is the sort of challenge I'm facing as a parent. It will be great if you can help me out and you know I so far I haven't received a negative sort of response to that, because I do appreciate also that people still work at 5 o'clock. Meetings still need to happen. So it's just a matter of like finding that balance, and you know you have to give to take. I think so.
Eve Bjonness:Yeah, yeah, I think it's also been like kind of open and honest with it, like in that situation maybe you know not, like you trying to sort of pretend like I'm not busy in the background on the go here and I'm just going to do this call and like nobody will know that, that's like actually I'm on a pickup. It's like there's just there's kind of no point to that. It's like you have to just be open and honest about it, I think at the start and also not, you know not be not like embarrassed about it. But you know like there's no point in trying to pretend that that's not part of your life because it's. It just then becomes a real struggle to try and juggle and do everything, you know everybody at the same time, which has never got. You know that just leads to that, just takes you down a horrible route.
Kayleigh Bateman:But I think it's just that person on the phone. You're right, being honest to the person on the phone like, hey, you know, I now I might not give you my full attention because this is the time that I need to disappear, and you're right. Instead of I've had colleagues do that, where they, in the end, you go, you're in the car, I just call you back when you're free and normally that's. That's fine with somebody. But you're right, unless you're transparent about what you are and what you're doing and that you might not be able to help them fully at that point.
Eve Bjonness:And I think people are more receptive to that, if you are, I think it would be more if it went on and you know, it was sort of months down the line and they were like all right, like why didn't you say at the start? And then it's a bit more of an awkward conversation where I was like you say people are, you know, they instantly were like well, that's just changed the time, but that's absolutely, you know, I feel that's what people would do, because they're more receptive to understanding what your, you know what, what your sort of your challenges are.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, yeah. And so none of you none of you have said anything about struggling with your boundaries at Capco, which is a good thing to hear. How is Capco supporting working parents then, when it comes to setting those boundaries, is there anything that you think they do well as a company? I mean, some companies are just really good at policing you to make sure that you stick to your boundaries. Is that something that any of you have felt from Capco?
Eve Bjonness:I've definitely found it just in terms of line managers. You know, performance managers that I have, that I've worked with, have always been very supportive and, you know, in recognizing if you're struggling and speaking, you know if they have to speak to the client instead of me speaking directly, like there's not been terrible situations like that. But I think they're quite aware of everyone. You know everyone's got a different situation, a different scenario they're in and they're here to sort of support everyone. There's obviously the aim to be more diverse across across the company is there. So, yeah, I see that they're supportive. I'm obviously part, as I said, of the, the Payments and Cares Network and obviously that's there to try and make people see, be recognized and feel supported. And, you know, try and work with, you know with people to to make sure they can balance their both their work and their family life and still be successful at Capco. That's high on our agenda.
Eve Bjonness:We've done, we've kind of looked at initiatives with people coming back from maternity leave or long term leave to see like what would be the issues when you've come back into the business, how can we support people better? Because that's a real drop off rate, a real drop off point, you know, and it's how do in consulting is obviously different as well, because we have our, you know, we have our core roles and then we have our other kind of consulting things that we want, like we have to do on top of that. So it is, you know, it is a big juggle but it's, I feel, like the company wants to help people still be successful in that scenario. You know, and that's part of what we do with that network as well, is to try and just make sure people are aware that there's a, there's a group of people there going through the same kind of stuff. You know we're there to talk.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, and having that network you just hit the nail on the head there. Just having a group of people that are all going through the same things must be so encouraging for people, especially new parents, who might be thinking is it just me that fills this way, just to hear it from from other people? We're going to talk a little bit about self care strategies. What self care strategies do you recommend for working parents to maintain their well being while managing professional responsibilities? Irene, should we ask you about that? Do you have any self care strategies that that you use in terms of setting boundaries and making sure you have time time just for family?
Irene Symeonidou:I think I don't know about self care, but I think like maybe I guess maybe this kind of goes more into your other question about tips I feel like surrounding yourself with a support system and also being extremely organized I think allows you to, let's say, stay above, stay above the water and then maybe have some self care time. But I think, just going back to your previous question with Capco, I think before I even had kids, people asked me like what is the number one thing you like about Capco? And I would say the people. So I don't know how, but somehow the culture and the people that joined Capco is very special and it's still the case. And I think that because it's such a good culture, you end up in teams at least I always have in teams with extremely good people, extremely good culture, and that kind of helps you go about your day. So even if your client isn't the most supportive, if you're surrounded by a really good supportive team, it helps all around. So it helps even if you are a parent or if you are an apparent, and so I think having that support system really, really helps. Now, at home, having a support system also helps.
Irene Symeonidou:I know Eve mentioned earlier that she's lucky with her husband having more shift work. My husband doesn't have shift work but he's very supportive. He'll do pickups and because those boundaries that I say I set don't always go the way I plan them to do, there are times where I do have to take calls at five, but I'm only able to do that because I have an excellent partner who can drop everything and go and pick up our son and take care of him as well. So I think it's just about having a support system and being extremely organized. I know that this year I was messaging other moms other friend moms from November what the kids wanted for Christmas and I tried to organize everything from November order, all the gifts and everything. So organization is key.
Kayleigh Bateman:I love the fact you mentioned that a lot of ladies on this podcast talk about when they come back to work. They almost feel like a different employee because they picked up all these skills when they were on maternity leave and they come back and they're like I'm so much more organized. They have to be organized Really good at negotiating now, because I have to negotiate with my child when they want to eat something and you know it's if they come back as a new person. It's true.
Irene Symeonidou:I think one thing that I think I think moms have it more than dads. I don't generally like to describe it, I think all parents have this, but I think moms generally have this more than dads. I think people misunderstand or don't understand the depths of where your mind goes throughout the day. It's constant, like you're literally thinking, like it's everything. It's like, okay, I'm on this call, but then I have to think about what's for dinner. What time do I have to go pick up? Has the laundry been done? Are there clothes for tomorrow? Like for school, like is there enough clothes for him to wear for the rest of the week? And it's just a constant, like your mind never stops and you have to think about a million things to make sure that everything is ready. So it's like you have your job, but then you also have this like other layer where it's like constantly, nonstop, in the background, making sure you check that list off and making sure that everything else is done. So, yeah, it's a challenge.
Eve Bjonness:It's definitely the mental load of it all. It's a lot of remembering and, yeah, being the one to sort of list, just like constant lists of things to do, remembering all the things to do.
Eve Bjonness:It's just and I think people think it's not really a thing Like. I'm just asking a question about, like, where is something? I'm like you have all this information at your disposal for all the kids activities. Where are we going tonight? What time is it? You have all, you have the same information that I have. I'm just having to now remember another thing, like and I don't really have the time to remember another thing Like you need to kind of get an understanding of what that you know what's going on there. It's yeah, it's hard.
Kayleigh Bateman:I, lillian, on that topic of you, know all of those things that happen. You're always remembering all of those things happening in the background and it all runs smoothly. I wanted to ask you a little bit about that self care question that we just touched upon there. But how can you prioritize self care without feeling guilty, because it is all that going on as well and you're trying to be good to yourself but actually you just feel really guilty that you just you've got other things to do and you've got work to do.
Lilian Camargo:Yeah, it's funny question because I'm always feeling guilty when I'm working. I feel like, oh, I wish I could stay with my kids for an additional hour or so, and then, when I leave the office and I go to pick them up, I feel, oh, I wish I could, you know, do a final review in that deck before I send. So we need to live with the guilty, no matter what, but some of the items that I would like to do. So, as a tech professional and I love to do what I do we know that we constantly need to be. You know recycling and learning new tricks.
Lilian Camargo:So read I think read is something that I feel like it's a self care, because I love my work, so I like to read some technical guides and learn new technologies, ai or something. Also, you know, when you feel like stressed, just take a walk. Just, you know, have lunch outside when the weather allows us, or take a walk with kids I know that sometimes they are, so you know jumping and running. Just, you know, do something outside just to relax a little bit. Everyone will be believed. I feel like this. I could go on and talking about things that I do not practice, but this too, at least I do, so that's why I mentioned those.
Kayleigh Bateman:I like the fact you said that the guilt never goes away and I suppose it's just something that you learn to manage and that it won't actually ever leave your working day. You're always trying to balance, something which I think a lot of our community probably believe. To hear you say that, ladies, we're almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you one last question what practical tips do you have for working parents who are striving for success while maintaining a balanced life? Do you have any tips or anything that you wish you could share, that you wish somebody had told you before you became a working parent? Eve, shall we start with you?
Eve Bjonness:Yeah, I think some of it is that maybe that trying not to feel guilty when asking for help, you need to realise that you just cannot do it all. If you have and I understand some people don't have, as I have quite a strong support system in terms of grandparents etc. And that can help out, but really really using that, you sometimes don't want to ask and it's just like they want to help. They're there and they always want to help, but you don't feel guilty about it. And I think it's that, like what we've been talking about is like what are your non-negotiables? And you know, in setting some boundaries around those and really sticking to them and being open and honest with people, that that is what your non-negotiables are and this is how you work. And you know, if it turns out that that's a you know a role you're in or a situation that's not going to work that way, then you know maybe it's not best for you, because I think trying to struggle through potentially in a role and trying to do it all for a client whilst trying to maintain your home life, you know it's never going to work out well. You get yourself like that. You feel guilty, you've become stressed For me.
Eve Bjonness:You then, because I like to, you know, get to the gym or do a run. That totally alleviates my stress. That's the thing I need to do, and sometimes you feel guilty about doing it, but I know that the end result I'm going to be much more productive and I'm not going to be as an archie with the kids and I'm going to be, you know, I'm just going to be a lot better. And it's not feeling guilty about having to do that and almost like setting that out at the start, like this is something I need to do. I'm not going to be sat here at my computer for 10 hours today because I want to need to take a break, because I want to need to go and do XYZ and I need to get to the gym or whatever it may be, but I think it's just a lot of being open and honest with it as well.
Eve Bjonness:And just, you know there's no, there shouldn't be any shame in being. You know, I'm a working parent and these are the things I need to do. I am absolutely committed to my job and I absolutely want to be successful. It does not mean that I do not want to be successful just because I'm a parent and the two should be allowed to go hand in hand. There shouldn't be, you know, there shouldn't be the fact that you can't progress and you can't get on in your career just because you have children. I agree.
Kayleigh Bateman:And, as you said, there should be no shame in it, which is absolutely true. I think just more people should know that, as you said, asking for help is fine. There's no shame in, there's no shame in being upfront. You know I have some needs and a lot of people have those needs in the workplace. You know they shouldn't be unusual for people to ask Irene, do you have any practical tips for working parents or anything you wish somebody had told you?
Irene Symeonidou:I think what I said earlier, I just you just have to become extremely organised to kind of relieve the stress. I think it's key, you know, to have some sort of organisation between you and your partner just to keep things going. You know you can't leave things as last minute, as you would before. So I think being organised really, really helps. I think also, like you know, when you come back, it's not, it's not easy, it's, but it's possible. So I think it's something that people shouldn't be afraid of.
Irene Symeonidou:You can be nervous about it. There's no way about it. You get nervous, and I'm about to do this again, so I'm sure it'll be just as much of a challenge coming back. It's a challenge and I think it's. I think it's about like more about. I've noticed that where I found challenges like people's mindsets, it's not that people, people don't want to help or they're not nice or they're not understanding. It's just the mindset that your life is now a little bit different and the ways that you can help are different, and it's just about shifting that mindset so that where they, how they can help you, and it looks a little bit different and we just need to help with that mindset change. I guess.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, yeah, I agree, it is a shifting mindset. You mentioned earlier that Capcom has a great culture and I think sometimes being in a culture where they have a great mindset and the employees have a great mindset and are just more mindful of their colleagues throughout their day is so, so important to be a part of. And, as we mentioned a little bit earlier, if you're not part of a good culture, then a lot of really good talent just exits and that is it. A lot of good companies lose out on good people because they're not flexible and they're not understanding. Lillian yourself any practical tips from you and anything you wish someone had told you.
Lilian Camargo:Yeah, I well. I'm echoing what Eve and Irene said Don't be ashamed to ask for help and be very organized, because it requires a lot of organization to be a mom and a professional. But on top of it, I would say, be present and productive, meaning if you are working, pull your soul there and do your best during that timeframe when you are with your mom hat, be a mom, you know. Disconnect a little bit. Be a mom, read, enjoy, dance with them, you know. Give all the energy whatever you are doing. That's the tip that I have.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, that's really good advice being present for whatever it is that you're doing, whether that is at home or at work, and having to juggle each of them. Just making sure that you're present for both Ladies. We are already out of time, it's absolutely flown by, but thank you so much to Eve, irene and Lillian for joining us today. Our community are going to absolutely love hearing all about your experiences of juggling a work-life balance. So thank you so much, ladies, for joining me, thank you, thank you and for everybody listening, as always. Thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.