Delivering diversity in tech

Join us as we dive into an insightful conversation with Theresa Palmer, the Global Head of Diversity, Equity & Inclusion at BAE Systems. Theresa shares her invaluable expertise and experiences in spearheading diversity initiatives within the tech industry.

Throughout the podcast, we uncover key strategies and best practices for fostering an inclusive culture within tech organisations. Theresa emphasises the importance of creating an environment where diverse voices are not only heard but celebrated. From discussing the significance of representation to the implementation of inclusive hiring practices, this episode offers a comprehensive guide to building a diverse workforce in the tech sector.

Listen in to discover Theresa's inspiring journey, her vision for a more inclusive tech landscape, and her actionable insights on driving meaningful change in the world of technology. Join us as we explore the critical steps toward delivering diversity in tech and unlocking the full potential of every individual.

Tune in now to gain valuable perspectives on the transformational power of diversity and inclusion in the tech space. Don't miss this engaging discussion that promises to inspire, educate, and empower change-makers in the field of technology.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again. I am Katie Batesman, the content director at she Can Code. Today, we are discussing delivering diversity in tech. Today, we're going to uncover key strategies and best practices for fostering an inclusive culture within tech organizations. I'm lucky enough to be joined by the amazing Teresa Palmer, the Global Head of Diversity, equity and Inclusion at BAE Systems Digital Intelligence, who is here to share her invaluable expertise and experiences in spearheading diversity initiatives within the tech sector. Teresa, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2: 0:35

welcome, no, you're welcome. I feel like you've set a real bar for the things I'm going to have to say now.

Speaker 1: 0:42

No, it's going to be good. We're so pleased to have you on. Thank you so much for taking the time out. Can we kick off when we set the scene a little bit, with a little bit of background about yourself, please? Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 2: 0:56

I think lots of people I think hate it when I do this. But I tend to start off even further back in the start of my career and talk a little bit about my education, because I think sometimes we travel down these paths. We all have to pick right University. We're all quite young and we're talking at a very young age about what we're going to be when we grow up. And I always think back to sort of the educational paths that I took and what I liked and it all sort of came together for me now that I work in DEI. And that is that my way back when my undergraduate degree is actually in psychology and I loved psychology, I thought I would go into it.

Speaker 2: 1:31

If I wasn't going to be a psychologist, I was going to be a teacher of it and I always sort of went down even my internships in my undergrad where in and around market research, sort of looking into the insights of business, and ultimately my master's was in business administration with a focus in organizational design and change. And I look back on those two things which seemed really disconnected back at the time because I was just interested in both, but they kind of really encompass everything that the DEI in a business becomes right. It is the emotional side of it, it's the people side of it, it's the thinking, it's what's behind people's thinking and what drives them to work and to succeed and to select others and in the transformation of it all, how do you transform that in a business? And so I always like to start touching on that nowadays when I tell people because I think it does sort of set the scene of my interest, because my career has always been in tech but has been quite varied, whether it be in a finance team or in a sales team, customer success.

Speaker 2: 2:34

I've sat in some HR roles and ultimately sort of coming into DEI, which, once you see all that on paper put together, I think it comes together really, really well to show that, yeah, it's just been around well, honestly. A lot of jobs of opportunity, people seeing something in me and offering me something. But yeah, tech for me wasn't planned, it was a job of opportunity. I was doing my psych degree and I got offered the opportunity to go, you know, do the file room during the summer for my the company my sister was working at and they saw something in me and kept offering me more and more and then it sort of snowballed from there, and I think the same things would have happened when I came into DEI. But yeah, I've had a really interesting opportunity in my career to take what I learned in my education and then transfer it into a business environment and a technology environment, which is an area that I've just really enjoyed and hopefully, I like to think, thrived in.

Speaker 1: 3:33

Yes, you know you have one of those backgrounds that we just love to promote on this podcast that you don't have to be technical to come into tech, that you fell into tech as well, that we hear that a lot, and we would love more ladies to know that lots of ladies who work in tech fell into tech and didn't plan it, and that you can still get on and still be very successful, and, yes, it will completely make sense, doesn't it? Although, what you said about the emotional side of things and working with people and I love that you highlighted that, because it is a misconception that you come into tech and it is very you know, you work on your own, you're very siloed. There's no kind of emotional side to the tech sector, and actually your job encompasses all of that, which is brilliant and something that we actively promote at she Can Code.

Speaker 2: 4:23

I think falling into tech is probably one of the best things you can do. I loved it, I loved the environment, I loved the pace of it. I love I am not technical, you know. I always tell people for years when my phone rang and my house, my internet, went out, I still don't know why and people would obviously don't you work in tech and I went. I don't do that, but it's being around it.

Speaker 2: 4:46

I've always loved immersing myself in the technology and learning about it, and I always had to and I actually found again this is me digressing, but when I was working with customers it was they were always a little bit uncomfortable because I was very open about when I'd go in and I did a lot of recovery projects and so I worked with a lot of customers at other companies not BAE, but at other companies where you know they were having trouble with our software or with our implementation. And you get a lot of, you know, and this is what I talk about diverse thinkers right, oftentimes this is a huge generalization, but back then, back in the old days, you'd find sometimes very, very technical people that were really involved in implementations would go in and speak to a customer and the second, they'd give them a problem. They'd go to fix that problem. I always said to my customers I'm technical to a degree. I know our product. I'll understand you when you're speaking. I'll tell you when I don't and I have a technical counterpart here with me for those bits. But what you'll find is I'm going to keep digging. This is the psychologist in me, I guess. I'm going to keep digging because sometimes we'll stop at the first problem because we hear it and we go fix it, but that doesn't fix the overall problem. That transfers really well into DEI too.

Speaker 2: 6:02

Sometimes you just have to be able to listen. That was what I found really, really important in working in the tech space was that I could sit down and listen to a technical conversation, know when it went over my head, but actually tell people the fact that I'm here to listen and I'm not the person that fixes your problem Means that you won't latch on to me trying to fix one. I'm just going to keep digging until I find what it is and so that we can fix you for good. I really, really enjoyed that about it. Yeah, tech for me has been. It was just always a really interesting space and I'll never forget coming into BAE and when I interviewed, hearing more about what we do at Digital Intelligence, which is the cyber side of it and the digital side of it it was just.

Speaker 2: 6:46

I sat in a room with two people interviewing me and at the end of the interview they said I think that's it. You have any other questions? I said yes. I said okay what I said if you offer me the job and I take it, do I get a case? I looked and I went. I feel like we fight bad guys here and I want to be a part of it. Yes, we didn't know I wasn't going to be part of the technical deliveries, but right in their coding, I still felt as a member of that team. I got to be a part of doing something really, really good. Most technology solutions in some way are providing a real innovation and a real greatness to the world, and I love that about tech. I find that inspiring about being in the tech world.

Speaker 1: 7:29

Yes, definitely, and something that more people should know as well that if you do go into a company like that and you can say you know our mission is, we fight bad guys, that's easier to roll off the tongue anyway when you're meeting somebody and they ask you what you do.

Speaker 2: 7:43

But also I think my college team will love it. They'll be upset that I've said that on there.

Speaker 1: 7:47

but I mean, it's not our tagline, but it's definitely what I think with dinner, definitely should be, and I love that you were talking about when you went into a meeting and all the skills that you used are very different to the technical person that is there who is going to actually fix the problem, because you can't solve that client's problem without both of you. So you have all these wonderful soft skills as well that can really help to communicate to the customer about what's needed, whereas you know, not having that technical side doesn't mean that you can't work in tech or that your role isn't incredibly important. And that is something else as well about working in tech that a lot of people don't realize that if you have all those great soft skills and say you're 15 to 20 years already into a different industry, you can actually transfer a lot of your great skills over to tech quite easily without having to have that computer science degree or that technical knowledge.

Speaker 2: 8:46

Absolutely. We find that a lot, even with the types of people that we, as we broaden our horizons of the types of people and types of ways that we want to hire people and things like looking to organizations, even like tech returners, and looking at people that are working with career changers, and they find that a lot of women later in life change careers and find great success with that, and I think that's a really, really wonderful thing. So we try to work with the types of organizations that can do things like that. That's a huge thing for us is being able to tell people, just because you've done one thing doesn't mean you can't be useful here. Probably means you're really really useful here because you have a totally different view than anybody else.

Speaker 1: 9:27

Yes, yes, exactly, and a lot of our ladies are career transitioners or returners as well, and we do get asked questions about that A lot of the time, about you know, is it too late? What do I need to know at this point? Actually, you've got all of that wonderful life experience. Just being in the workplace makes you far more valuable to accompany anyway. So, yeah, it's a whole other podcast. We'll have to have you back for us. I wanted to ask you a bit about what inspired you to pursue a career in promoting diversity, equity and inclusion within the tech industry. You mentioned that you had lots of different roles and then you moved into that space. What was it? Did you see a gap there? Or just something inspired you to move in that area?

Speaker 2: 10:15

Yeah, no, it was, I'd probably say, a combination of fate and, very openly and vulnerably, a lack of understanding. I was working in building on a customer success pilot and I had this strong ethos which is everyone's ethos now, but back then it was less accepted on trying to build out this really great customer journey and I'm really one of the customer experienced to be a great one, of course, because I say I worked with a lot of recovery customers, and so it was about how do you build a long-term relationship? Software was moving from send to disk, have a problem, open up a customer support ticket, fill it, fix it, close it, and it was moving to this software as a service type of relationship where you really want to build a long-term partnership with someone. And I was invited I think everyone knows it's been in, I've said it tons of times in blogs and things that I was about six months pregnant with my second file and was building out this pilot and everyone thought I was crazy for doing that. My snickers bar and my Coke can, because it was a second child, so I hate talking about the thing.

Speaker 2: 11:23

That time Got invited. Teresa, there's a gender meeting today. Do you want to go? Sure and went in and I'll never forget calling my sister back in America, who also got two older sisters who also have leadership roles in technology organizations, called one of them and was like they'll never believe what I was listening to today in this meeting. There were all these young women and they were talking about not seeing a woman in the interview process and how that made them not want to come to work here, and I was listening to stories that, if I'm very honest at the time, just interested me instead of resonating with me, or intrigued me even, and we sort of had this laugh about what are they teaching the kids in school these days? Because it was in the UK and it was in the US, because she said we just have a similar conversation here and we sort of both had an awakening in that moment.

Speaker 2: 12:16

And I always tell people you can't unring the bell once you hear it and you start opening up your eyes in every conversation and every meeting thereafter and you start to see things that you didn't see before. And I've recovery projects, transformation. It's sort of my sweet spot, it is the things I enjoy. So suddenly you look and you go, wow, this is an area of transition for businesses everywhere and this is a really great opportunity to really change businesses in a great way. And it was the best way to say it is.

Speaker 2: 12:48

I didn't understand it and so immediately wanted to understand it more, and it connected for me so closely to success and journey and experience. And it is the biggest cliche, but probably the most important cliche that your employees are your biggest customer. They can choose to leave, they can choose to stay. If you treat them well, if you look after them, if you give them a great experience and a great foundation and the types of development opportunities that they want, not only will they then very selfishly produce great out front out front for your company, they'll also bring your brand ambassadors when they're not at work. So it just all fits really well together in my mind. All of the thoughts of my head back came together and made sense. This is just two different types of customer success and brightness in terms of next year.

Speaker 1: 13:43

Yes, definitely, I agree with everything you just said, because you are absolutely right. The companies that really get that, they realize that that is so very much connected to their success. And we notice that sometimes at Sheikhan Code you can see those companies that are just ticking a box sometimes for their diversity and inclusion they just want a logo to put somewhere and that is it. But those companies that have realized that there is a connection between diversity and their success are actively moving forward on how to improve that. And I remember, because I worked with BAE years ago as well, I knew that for a long time that you've been doing so many things to improve diversity at your company because you're a company that just really, really just gets the mission behind improving diversity and why and it's nice to hear that you didn't fall into that, eva, that you actively chose. You fell into tech, but you actively chose to move into that area, which is a good thing to hear.

Speaker 2: 14:53

And I hope I try to be really honest about the fact that I didn't understand it back then, because I think for some people to get really involved in the change of DEI, they're almost afraid to say that and so the fact that I work in it I hopefully is really important for anyone listening that it's okay to not understand it and it's okay to admit to that and it's okay to just have this interest to want to go make something better.

Speaker 1: 15:18

Yes, definitely, and I'm pleased you said that, because a lot of our listeners will be thinking you know I was thinking of moving into a similar role, and we do use spilling the tea to dip into certain tech careers, and obviously DEI being one of those. So we'd love to hear a little bit about your day to day. What does your day look like in diversity?

Speaker 2: 15:36

Do you know what? I give this answer all the time, and it's the worst answer for a podcast, because I get a lot of bit about like, can you tell me about your day to day? And I generally give this very quick response of no. But there's truth to that, and so I will expand a little bit. But that is the way. That is diversity at work. I don't have one day. I sometimes look back at my week, too and think what the heck did I do this week, because sometimes what you planned isn't actually what happens. And so I can do.

Speaker 2: 16:09

I can be doing anything from, you know, literally just responding to emails from interested employees and team members across the business to sitting in on mental health conversations, to sitting in on promotion and development conversations and developing new trainings, and then just looking at the initiatives that we're going to do and celebration days is, yeah, my job is diversity at work, diversity in practice. But I have that sort of brain, I like that sort of activity. I like something new every day. I like the unexpected. I like to deal with you know, issues as they pop up and hopefully help people resolve them. And so it is. It is.

Speaker 2: 16:51

And then, on top of it all because of the nature of where I sit in the organization, it is very strategic as well, so it's not just doing things, but it's looking at what are we going to be doing. You know, what have we, what's been our maturity curve over the last five years? And now let's sit down and develop the maturity curve for the next five years and what we think that should look like and where should we be stretching ourselves and what are the activities that are going to help us change the way we look and act and the culture of our organization and the makeup of our organization to not only deliver great results for our business but again, very cliche but deliver a really great experience for our employees as they come into our business and travel through it for what hopefully we hope at BAE is their career.

Speaker 1: 17:36

Yes, yeah, and measuring that success and changing strategy if needed. So many companies forget to do that, don't they? They think you know what. We're going to go down the diversity mission. We're going to be on a mission. We're going to be actively doing lots of different activities and actually almost forget to go back and measure whether or not, they worked.

Speaker 2: 17:55

You know what. It is so true. I have a little note beside me about that because it's I think I found one of the funniest things in my role is when I first took it on. Everybody wanted to measure things right and there's heads and hearts and I'm actually quite. I'm an empath, I'm a heart leader and I have had to find that changing my style has been really, really important and not changing it, evolving. I'll say evolving because I didn't need to change it. I still need that heart side of me.

Speaker 2: 18:23

But there is, you know, a whole host of people that you know lead with their head, and so you have to find that balance and the metrics really help that. But all those leading with their heart, that, even though they wanted the metrics second you do it, it becomes really a real visceral response. And so part of the strategic approach that I put into place a number of years ago was actually around a holistic view of our customer, if you will, our employee, and it was around building this life cycle of inclusive policies and processes but then engaging with employees regularly. So we understood, you know, where they wanted to go, what they were hearing, what they were feeling, and then it was around, you know mental health and well-being and are we making sure that we're checking in on those? And only the fourth quadrant was around metrics and measurement. And you know how do we look at our KPIs at the end of the day.

Speaker 2: 19:12

And I've always made really, really clear that in that life cycle, if we're doing the first three quadrants appropriately and authentically and we're really trying at building out our processes, checking with our people and making sure that there's a great mental health and well-being experience, then actually those metrics just show us if it's working. And if it isn't, you check and change and you say that's actually not working for our population, what can we do for our community to make it better? And it becomes a really great way to measure because you actually are just checking that things are working and things are going in a positive direction and if they're not, accept that, own that, communicate that and change it.

Speaker 1: 19:51

Yes, and that's actually putting those words into action as well and feeling like you know, as a company you're moving forward, as a department you're moving forward, but instead of that just kind of, as we said, that ticking that box. So we do something that nobody's measured it and we probably we can't actually put our finger on what we did, but we think we did something.

Speaker 2: 20:12

Yeah, and we think people liked it. It might have been.

Speaker 2: 20:15

you know and it's the hard thing with D you know you can do tons of wonderful things. But if you don't and that's the engagement with your community right If you, there's tons of initiatives you can do and different ones will work at different companies. So you really need to know your people and you need to know your organization. You need to constantly see how it's developing and growing, because I could come up with five great ideas that have worked wonderful somewhere else and go out and throw them out into our business and it doesn't mean that it actually addresses anything that's important to our people or causes any real change in the way that they feel or their experience at work.

Speaker 1: 20:51

Yeah, exactly, exactly, just keeping an eye on your community and measuring the success. We've already touched upon this a little bit, but I want to draw to a perspective on why is diversity crucial for the success and innovation of tech companies and you touched upon that a little bit earlier but why do you think it is crucial?

Speaker 2: 21:13

I love this. This is another one of my trick responses. It's not just to know. This time, though, I've been asked this question before and, interestingly, I think my best response to this for that question is actually to change it around and say why would anybody think it isn't crucial? I think we'd find our future leaders far easier if we ask that question, instead of even an interview saying do you think it's important? Why do you think it's important? What do you think the things are that you could do? Because innovation right, and that's technology. Technology is innovation. Innovation is change. Change is often driven from imagination and creativity, but then you need to connect that right With the logical delivery, focused people that are going to go and make that happen, and then every little bit in between, and so that's diversity. And if people can't immediately see why that is crucial to the success of any company, let alone an innovative technology organization, you don't want to start. It's almost a screening process question of if you don't think it's important, educate me why. How could you not?

Speaker 1: 22:25

Yes, I agree, because a lot of companies they think we do a bit of diversity but it's a nice to have and it's not necessarily crucial. I remember for years I constantly heard but diversity is a nice to have. And during COVID I thought you know what? There's going to be so many stories coming out that the one thing that's going to start getting cut the first thing in companies is going to be D and I, because it used to be a nice to have, and I was actually quite surprised when that didn't happen. So I was thinking at least a lot of companies have actually realized, you know, it's not a nice to have and it has dawned on them by the time COVID happened that it is crucial and not a nice to have. So don't cut that part of your business. And thankfully a lot of companies didn't.

Speaker 1: 23:12

You're right. For a long time that went on, I think sometimes as well. Now the discussion has also moved forward to how it actually improves profit and improves your bottom line and suddenly it was like businesses there is pricks up and fall. Actually, there is a little bit more to this. You have so much experience in this area, so I wanted to ask you a little bit about what are some of the key challenges that you've encountered whilst implementing diversity initiatives, and how did you overcome them?

Speaker 2: 23:45

So I've got a whole list.

Speaker 2: 23:49

This is again a whole other podcast. I would say some very simple ones are people with blinders on. You want to say simple ones so people understand the types of challenges you come up against. There's really obvious ones of resources and time constraints. Oftentimes DE and I functions are significantly under-resourced, and so you deal a lot with finding passionate people in your business that are happy to volunteer their time. You're not completely not resourced, but it is it tends to be within most organizations, from what I see relatively under-resourced and under-budgeted, for that matter.

Speaker 2: 24:30

You then move on to the intricacies of and I will say it sounds like I'm joking but I'm not we do have a really great leadership team, so our board is very supportive, but it does take time in a lot of organizations. Much like you said of making it more than nice to have. That's been a real evolution for all organizations and we've had to go through that evolution as well. But being able to get boards to take it seriously and not do tick box changes, not do the nice to haves, then you have to broaden the conversation. So it's really hard and I can't help but be very connected to the gender topic, but it's not the only thing out there. So we have to broaden that conversation while still keeping things like gender in people's faces. But it is bigger. I'm a woman, but I'm diverse for so many different reasons other than that, and I need to make sure that that gets carried across, and we continue to look for the new types of diversity that will come up and make sure that those get brought into the conversation and get held in just as high a regard and get taken just as seriously. And so tenacity has been important.

Speaker 2: 25:42

I talked earlier about being able to adapt the way that I change and the way that I influence, and so that's been, I think, really really big for me, and making sure that things get implemented and hitting those challenges head on is being constantly self-aware about my style and other people's styles, but this is what everyone should be doing, this is what we say should be happening, and so hopefully, it's me putting it into practice. What is my influencing style and is it working? And if not, what do I need to tweak to make that work? So that's, I think that's, and it's the heads and hearts thing again is how can I make sure that I'm speaking to everybody? And because I can't sell to the hearts with my head and I can't sell to the heads with my heart and ultimately it's just not stopping.

Speaker 2: 26:28

Keep my open mind. Don't stop. Stay steadfast and know that this type of change takes a while. Don't be complacent with that and accept that it's going to take a while, but know that it is and then just keep going really.

Speaker 1: 26:44

Yes, yeah, Anna, and it taking a while leads into something else you said there about leadership as well. Really, the only way that you can make that change if it is coming from the leadership team and I have had experience with BAE Systems leadership team and I do know that there are so many advocates that it just trickles down and that a company can't change its culture with just one person. And it has to trickle down and it is so, so important to bring about that change, Because if you're looking up and people are not not doing what you're being told, then obviously you know as a company, your culture is not going to change at all. Bae we wanted to. I wanted to pick into some of the successful strategies that have been employed at BAE Systems to foster a more inclusive and diverse work environment. Can you share a few of those?

Speaker 2: 27:37

Yeah, I mean the first one is right in the question have a strategy, have a strategy. You'd be surprised how many people I speak to that work in this area that don't. Or, again, in their organizations, it's not something that's seen to need a strategy. So be confident and be again steadfast that you need to have a strategy and then stick to it. Obviously, you know, be ready to evolve a change, but stick to it If you're. If you're not achieving, don't change it right away. Check against it and say why isn't it working? Start being inquisitive, right, why isn't it working? Why isn't it landing? What do we need to do? If this is really what we wanted to achieve, what are the things in our business that are stopping us from achieving it?

Speaker 2: 28:19

People again have a tendency to completely change their strategy and go well, that one wasn't working. Well, actually, the question with DEI is why isn't it working? And constantly asking that, why question? Speak to your people, Speak to your people all the time. Suddenly enough, kayleigh, you said earlier, but it's you know, don't leave D and I to one person. Yeah, not a one person job. It needs to be everybody. Everybody doesn't have to commit to everything in my strategy and I always say if I could get everybody, though, to pick even one small thing, the types of change that we could make in the company would be outstanding, absolutely outstanding.

Speaker 2: 29:04

I spoke earlier about a maturity curve. It's a really good thing to take a step back. Academic exercises are not always best, but every now and again, to do an academic exercise, either in a benchmarking activity or in creating that maturity curve and seeing where you're at on it, use one that already exists, see where you sit on it, and then constantly check, constantly check on it, put your KPIs against, establish, establish objectives and KPIs and then measure against them. Measure against them to see how you're doing. You'll hear me say over and over again and then check and then check with your people that evolution of thought and activity means that you are delivering the types of change that your people will respond to.

Speaker 2: 29:49

Measuring progress and metrics by launching initiatives isn't enough. Not just wanting it change. Look at your process, look at your engagement, look at your well-being, look at your people and then make sure that the things that you're delivering to them actually speak to the changes that they need in their environment To be productive, to be healthy, to be happy and to develop. To me, if you need to do a little box of what can I do, that's it. I mean, there's a lot in that actually, but it doesn't seem like it when you put it on paper. But if you stick to those sort of principles, there's so much more you can do. Yes, but those core principles will keep you honest with yourself and how you deliver successful strategies and again, keep us have one.

Speaker 2: 30:37

Yes, I was going to say yeah, your people have one, go back to the beginning, have a strategy. Sounds very simple, but actually there will be at least one person listening to this, going because that's a good point.

Speaker 1: 30:48

Yeah, instead of somebody that companies are thinking, oh, we've got a few women that we use to spokes people when there's something they need to be on that's to do with women in tech, and we send them out and it's good PR. That's not a strategy.

Speaker 2: 31:02

That's not your strategy. Yeah, yeah. Parts of it but not your strategy. Yeah, and when you do, when you do send women out, send them out to talk about your business. Send them to talk about the fantastic things that they're doing, the work that they're delivering. Don't send them out to talk about being a woman in tech.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Yes, yes, I couldn't agree more. I've said this a few times on this podcast. It used to drive me insane when you'd be at a show and there would be a women in tech talk and all the women would disappear off of the show floor and all the guys are there making connections and still talking about their products and their businesses and the ladies will all have to go and disappear into a room and talk about being a woman in tech and there'd be no men in there, as if that they didn't realize they were part of the conversation, and then all the ladies had come back out again and you just think it's just driving insane, but that used to happen. Luckily, there are a lot more men in the conversation now as well, but, as you just correctly said there, yes, send them out to talk about your products and your business, not just about diversity and being a woman in tech, which happens so often. I wanted to ask you a bit about unconscious bias. How can tech organizations effectively address unconscious bias in their hiring and promotion processes?

Speaker 2: 32:19

There's lots, as you can imagine. Very true to everything I've said, probably on every question you've asked me, is understand who you are as an organization and what you need to work on. You might do some things well, so continue doing those well and then figure out the ones that you're not doing so well. There are some basic things, though. You can set up some basic assurances Lots of people now know about, which I'm sure will eventually be renamed, but very well-known as gender decoders on job descriptions, just to make sure that they are applicable and readable to everybody.

Speaker 2: 32:52

It's a really simple thing that you can do Reasonable adjustments in your interviewing processes. You can do some very standard ones, because obviously reasonable adjustments are different for everybody. There are some basic ones that you can do depending on even if that's just sending out an agenda in advance, making sure that there's a clear path to the interview. Are you dealing with a lower socioeconomic area and so it's actually easier to do all computer-based interviews so that people aren't paying for travel and things like that? Then you can do specific ones and you can make sure you offer to people what works best for your interview style. Don't let us assume it for you, but we can make adjustments based on what an individual might need. That's an important thing.

Speaker 1: 33:40

You picked that out then, because again you mentioned that earlier about diversity is not just about gender. Actually, you picked out about socioeconomics there, and if somebody can't make it in for an interview because they can't afford it, that's nothing to do with somebody's gender. That's just been mindful of diversity as a whole.

Speaker 2: 33:58

Yeah, the outfit that they'd have to go by. But I mean, we can all make something up on the screen. But yeah, the costs that go into interviews when so many of them can be done remotely. But then also make sure that people are happy with their screens on. Not everyone's happy with the screen on. There's so many different little things that you can take into account that. Yeah, exactly. She says not gender-based. Yeah, definitely. That's a reasonable adjustment, is a big one that you can do. At the end of the day. It's again, not just asking you people, ask the people that you're working with. Not everyone's going to want to say that they need one, but it's a great thing to say. Is there anything that we can do that lends to train your recruiters, train your hiring managers on inclusive recruitment? This doesn't take a lot. You can buy a basic program on it. If you don't bespoke one, there's really simple ones that you can buy quite cheaply, in fact, to make sure that they understand what an inclusive recruitment process looks like, so that you're then delivering it to your candidates. There's lots of people Trial, more trial, works. Some companies have great success with blind CVs.

Speaker 2: 35:08

Broadening your talent pools. I always say don't move your funnel of where you get folks. Widen it so that you're still bringing in people from all over. You're still bringing in diverse minds. But work with different types of recruiters. There are recruiters that specify in different communities, in different areas. Use them along with the standard recruiters that you use. Look at different universities Again, go into different socioeconomic areas. Broaden what you bring in and then constantly check and challenge your process, if nothing more, if you don't do anything. I just said which, if you constantly check and challenge your process, you will eventually do some of those things that I just said. All of those things, then, checking and challenging then makes you start to realize what's working and what isn't and whether or not you're actually achieving the outcomes that you're looking for. But there is tons you can do. Those are just some examples, but there are tons you can do for unconscious bias in your hiring and promotion processes.

Speaker 1: 36:04

Yeah, and there isn't one silver bullet for everything either. There are a whole host of things that need to be part of it.

Speaker 2: 36:13

The check and challenge is so important, and I've said this a lot. First, I've just done a lot of hiring, right. But promotion processes I am absolutely fine and I'll use a very specific male and female example right, if a promotion of a particular area comes out and I don't know, four men get promoted. If that business area can check and challenge the process that they used and those four people were by far and away the right people to be promoted at that time then your process is working. If they can't come back and give a good reason why those four men were promoted, say over four women who didn't get it, then there's a problem with the process.

Speaker 2: 36:54

And so the check and challenge, I think, becomes really, really important, because at times there will be decisions where again, it is the man over the woman, if we know why and that makes sense, and then there's a development plan, say for the candidate that didn't get it, then it's making sense and we're developing people in the right way, because we also don't want to be promoting people or moving people around into roles that they can't do and they're not going to succeed at and they're not going to feel great about. But we have to then make sure that, if they were going for that promotion, we understand where they want to go and we develop them and we give them the tools and the learning and the development opportunities that we can to get them to where they want to go.

Speaker 1: 37:32

Yes, definitely, and actually touching upon that, you mentioned promotion, because that's great, because I wanted to talk to you a little bit about mentorship and sponsorship, which can sometimes lead you on to promotion in the direction that you want to progress in. I wanted to ask you what role can mentorship and sponsorship programs play in promoting diversity and supporting underrepresented groups in the tech sector? Both mentorship and sponsorship is something that we really advocate for at G-Con Code, and they're so important in promoting diversity within tech.

Speaker 2: 38:07

They are. It's one of those areas. Controversially, I'll say that. I'll say this it's one of those areas, though, that, much like you just said, you promote them and they're so important to you, I think businesses need to pick these programs up. They work so so incredibly well for some people. They're not for everybody, and so the reason that I say controversially is because then everyone's gonna say, oh, she doesn't think mentoring and sponsorships important. I absolutely do. What I don't want businesses to do is think that they Think that they've ticked a box once they put something like that in place. Yes, it doesn't work for everybody, and so that can't be your only approach to Driving change in your business, right?

Speaker 1: 38:48

Because I've heard oh, you know my company. They set up a mentoring program. I was match with somebody and I barely met them. And when I did meet them, actually we weren't a great match and we didn't use the time well. And you're right, on a surface level, that company looked like it was doing something great.

Speaker 2: 39:04

They've done it, they've done it, we've got this great mentoring program. Everyone's matched up. Yeah, it's an important option. It is an important option because it can. It can and it has been proven right, it has been studies, everything. It can be a huge catalyst for some people and really what they need. And and I'll say this sadly right, sadly that for some, particularly for marginalized groups, you know that, that they actually need this. But we know, in our society and where we're at in the evolution of DE and I in in the world today, it absolutely is a catalyst for people to help them with something that they currently weren't going to have access to.

Speaker 2: 39:40

And Inequity is about creating opportunities, right, and that's why I say it's not for everyone. It's about creating opportunities that suit many and it's not one opportunity for all. So don't, as we just said, don't let it be your only thing. You know, mentorship is one way of making sure, and sponsorship and coaching, right, these are all tools in your box. Make sure that you have them there, get it out there to make sure that your organization has access to it. You know, and and we try to do that we try to partner. If we can't do it internally, we partner with organizations that can do it. We also do have we have something called a rise mentoring program. That was created, actually, really, by one of our employee resource groups, and they've partnered with other organizations too. Right, because you don't have to do it just within your own organization. You can partner with others and have this great cross pollination of Information and ideas and experiences that give people opportunities and insights to help further their own careers.

Speaker 1: 40:36

Yes, definitely, I completely agree, and it really does depend on the person and, hopefully, businesses, and don't hide behind certain things as well and thinking that they're, you know, again ticking boxes and it's not really helping, and Everybody. And we are almost out of time and I have one last question I wanted to ask you and, looking ahead, what do you envision for the future of diversity and inclusion in the tech sector and what steps do you believe are necessary to achieve those goals? As a loaded question, you can unpack there.

Speaker 2: 41:09

I'm gonna pack a lot there. Do you know what? My short answer is what do I? What do I see ahead? I see a long road that, hopefully, will not discourage anyone. It will inspire them. We have done a great deal. We have a great deal more to do.

Speaker 2: 41:27

What probably scares me the most about DEI and that long road is complacency. It I my my big fear and it might never come to fruition is DEI right now Runs a risk of having gained enough strides that organizations move on to some hotter topics and and think they've done enough, that it's chugging along and it's doing its thing, and so they don't give it the same sort of Fueh and detention that it that it really merits on an ongoing basis. It's much like when you ask me about my day-to-day. It is never the same. It is always evolving. There will always be a new area of diversity. It's not an area that can become complacent and just tick along and and that sort of worries me about it quite honestly.

Speaker 2: 42:11

Um, you know, and there's things you know, we, all of us in tech, there's still some obvious gaps that we need to plug, and so women are are coming into businesses at Higher rates now we're all starting to see, and I think lots of businesses are starting to see graduates and early careers coming in at almost a 50 50 rate, or even a 60 40 rate, um, but we're still failing in a lot of businesses to see those numbers transition into a boardroom. So we need to keep at it. Um, so, yeah, it's probably a shorter answer than what you probably expected, but it's the implied length in it when I say that it's a long road. But what I'd say is you know, for people to stay interested, stay involved, yeah, keep, keep, keep taking away at it.

Speaker 1: 42:53

Yes, definitely. I couldn't agree more. There is a lot has been done, um, but there is still so much more to do, and I think now, at this stage, you're really starting to see the companies that have really stuck at it and really Found a good strategy and have been adapting along the way Are really starting to stand out amongst other companies that haven't, and they're the ones that are really Picking up the good talent. I mean, we had, you know, so many redundancies in tech recently, and a lot of companies really, you know, saw that as a green light to go and pick up some really good, diverse talent from other places, um, and those that were already there, you know, as a shining beacon of we. You know we are. We've been doing a lot of work around diversity, you know.

Speaker 1: 43:38

Naturally, they would have picked up some really good candidates, um, but as we said throughout all of this, it's not something you can do in a day. It doesn't, um? So he said thank you so much, um. I could talk to you for another six or seven hours on this topic, um, but we are already out of time. So thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 2: 43:58

Oh, it's been absolutely. I really, really appreciate the invite. I hope it was uh, I hope it was useful.

Speaker 1: 44:03

Well, thank you so, so, so much, and, to everybody listening, as always, thank you for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.