Today, we’re diving into the exciting world of Property Tech (PropTech).
Curious about what PropTech is and why it's a field worth exploring? Our guest expert, Dr Kate Jarvis, Co-Founder, Fifth Dimension AI, a seasoned professional in the PropTech industry, breaks it down for you.
Discover how technology is transforming the real estate landscape and creating new opportunities for tech-savvy individuals. From smart homes to innovative property management solutions, PropTech is changing the game.
Fifth Dimension AI is an AI-powered co-pilot for real estate deals, data, and documents. Kate is a Large Language Model wizard with a PhD in Linguistics from Stanford University. She’s spent the past 12 years designing Machine Learning-powered products and bringing them to market, in CPTO roles in varied sectors.
She co-founded a business after a considerable amount of time working in the industry to make independent decisions, thus reducing reliance on traditional workplace structures that may not be conducive to a balanced work-life. She is a strong advocator of women in tech and is leading a company in a field majorly dominated by men.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Today, we’re diving into the exciting world of Property Tech (PropTech).
Curious about what PropTech is and why it's a field worth exploring? Our guest expert, Dr Kate Jarvis, Co-Founder, Fifth Dimension AI, a seasoned professional in the PropTech industry, breaks it down for you.
Discover how technology is transforming the real estate landscape and creating new opportunities for tech-savvy individuals. From smart homes to innovative property management solutions, PropTech is changing the game.
Fifth Dimension AI is an AI-powered co-pilot for real estate deals, data, and documents. Kate is a Large Language Model wizard with a PhD in Linguistics from Stanford University. She’s spent the past 12 years designing Machine Learning-powered products and bringing them to market, in CPTO roles in varied sectors.
She co-founded a business after a considerable amount of time working in the industry to make independent decisions, thus reducing reliance on traditional workplace structures that may not be conducive to a balanced work-life. She is a strong advocator of women in tech and is leading a company in a field majorly dominated by men.
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in Again. I am Katie Batesman, the content director at G-Can Code. Today we are discussing property tech what it is and why you should enter the industry. Technology is transforming the real estate landscape and creating new opportunities for tech savvy individuals. From smart homes to innovative property management solutions, proptech is changing the game. If you're curious about what PropTech is and why it's a field worth exploring, thankfully I've got the wonderful Dr Kate Jarvis, co-founder of Fifth Dimension AI, who is a seasoned professional in PropTech, and she's going to break it down for us today what it is and what it entails. Welcome, kate. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Dr Kate Jarvis:Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Kayleigh Bateman:I'm excited because we haven't had PropTech on the podcast before, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners are wondering what it is, how they get into it. We're going to discuss that a little bit with you today. Can we kick off, though, with just a little bit about your career and a little bit about your background and how you got into the industry.
Dr Kate Jarvis:Yes, my career is anything but a straight line. If anyone's worried that they've been all over the place and now they want to get into PropTech, trust me, you still can. My journey began in linguistics so I got to university and, as you maybe can hear, I'm American and I had parents who are from New Jersey and I spoke like this. I got to university and I had people, let's say, who made certain assumptions about my background and who I was. A lot of them didn't involve that I would be very successful as a technologist and CEO and co-founder of a business. One day I got interested in why that was. What was it about? The way that I spoke and the way that I wrote that had people writing me off and that led me to find the science of linguistics. I just became absolutely enthralled with this idea that spoken language and written language contain all these tiny data points that you could analyze and learn things about people. I ended up getting my PhD. I moved to California and got my PhD in linguistics at Stanford. There I first had my exposure to large language models, neural networks and artificial intelligence, but given that I was in San Francisco, I got stolen away into the technology industry.
Dr Kate Jarvis:I started out in educational technology Really wanting to help other people like myself who couldn't have afforded to hire a tutor in order to help me get into an Ivy League school Instead created test prep technology that allowed people to hone in on their content weaknesses and revise over 24 hours for their SATs or ACTs and smash them out of the park for a really affordable price online. I eventually made it over to the UK and I continued to think about how to democratize access to information and really how technology can enable more and more people to have access to the same information that I was lucky enough to get as part of my education. I ended up going into a company called Way Home, which is a property technology slash financial technology company, where I met my amazing co-founder, johnny Morris. I started thinking a lot about how real estate most people's primary wealth vehicle is their home. A lot of people out there you don't think about investing in cryptocurrency as a way of creating a nest egg for your family. You think, hey, I'm going to find a home I really love, I'm going to try and get on the housing ladder and I'm going to keep that in my family as part of my legacy. I thought how cool, what a cool sector property technology is if it can facilitate more people getting access to homes who might not have had it before and really finding a safe space that they can love.
Dr Kate Jarvis:I met Johnny Morris and he was the chief data officer at Way Home at the time. The business is a mortgage alternative business, so it matches institutional investment capital with everyday people looking to buy homes. They were hiring for a chief product and technology officer. I happened to apply for that job because I wanted a hand in building a better future for people who are interested in owning homes. It was not the best relationship to start, I'll be honest. He interviewed me to join the executive team and he thought that I was arrogant. Little no at all, to be honest. I probably did come off that way in the interview, but I think I was just trying to show off my technical prowess and my data know how we went on to repair that relationship and realize we just had really different ways of communicating. There's a theme here going back to my university education. I thought I was doing and saying the right things and he just wasn't picking up on that. I didn't really understand him either, but we eventually got to the other side of that and we launched this product to market.
Dr Kate Jarvis:We built a bunch of beautiful technology that used machine learning and generative AI principles in order to, let's say, identify the right people for our product, whether or not they were financially fit for the product. Upfront Bam, the business became profitable. But at the same time as we had this beautiful tech stack over here, we had a team who was buying the homes and actually going through that whole conveyancing process, which here is quite laborious and can take a really long time if you've ever put an offer down on a home and tried to see that through to actually getting your keys. There are a ton of documents. It's a really difficult process. That team, in isolation, was running their entire sales and purchasing process off of spreadsheets Air table, which is essentially spreadsheets on the cloud. Right, they had color coding. They had 30 different views for each individual on that team tracking whether or not there were up-to-date fire certificates for this particular building that we were interested in buying.
Dr Kate Jarvis:It just blew my mind. I turned to Johnny and I was like is this what the property industry is like? Have I been in this little bubble at Stanford and in other technology sectors where everything is digitized, there are beautiful data warehouses, et cetera. Is this really the way that people are still buying and selling homes? That can't be right. He looked at me like oh sweet summer child. I've been in property for 16 years attempting to get the likes of Hampton CBRE, these beautiful big property agencies, to adopt new technologies, and it's never as easy as you think.
Dr Kate Jarvis:The reason for that, historically, has been that these individuals, these amazing professionals who have trained, who have expertise in things like valuing homes and whether or not this piece of land is on a watershed area and how that's going to affect the value of a home, don't really want to do the same task the same way twice. The difficulty when you're building software is you have to make choices that are going to railroad someone down a particular path. A lot of technology companies that wanted to get into the property industry and really get into people's workflows have not succeeded at doing that. Lo and behold, about a year ago, my co-founder and I got access to GPT-3, which is the model that sits behind chat GPT. We started playing around with it and tinkering and we realized large language models or generative AI is going to be the future of PropTech, because what it's so good at is taking all of that unstructured data and turning it into something useful. It meets people who are working in property where they actually are in their workflows, and it automates away the really boring, relentless tasks.
Dr Kate Jarvis:We built Fifth Dimension AI. We founded the company in January of this year, everything moving at warp speed as it does in AI. We essentially were aiming to help these real estate professionals jailbreak data from natural language. They don't ever have to sit around reading 100-page PDF again just looking for that one data table that has a like property in it that will help them understand the value of the property they're currently looking at. For example, they can just ask our AI LE to do that instead. I've been on a journey and I'm just really excited now that we have a technology, we have generative AI, that can release people from the sort of copy-paste, copy-paste, copy-paste routine that they've apparently been in the property industry, as I've learned, for a really long time Amazing.
Kayleigh Bateman:I think you're absolutely right. A lot of people who haven't worked in the property sector. They might have bought a house and realized that's, as you said, incredibly difficult to do, but people that haven't worked in that sector, they probably didn't realize how painful it is behind the scenes and the things that you have to do. I take it that is what PROPTECH encompasses you mentioned. They're kind of just sort of helping to automate tasks. It sounds incredibly simple. Is that kind of what it is? What I'm interested to know as well is you started in linguistics, you started in something just totally not related to technology, but you ended up in tech. You said you built beautiful technology but you're not a technologist. Did you know that you would fall into that? And then suddenly you'd be like oh, I'm the founder of a PROPTECH company, but you didn't start off in tech. So I'm kind of interested to see did you know that that was going to happen? Because you thought that years ago that you would have fallen into technology the way that you did?
Dr Kate Jarvis:Yeah. So linguistics is a really interesting field of study because it encompasses so many different things. So there are linguists out there whose job it is to study etymology and tell you about where the words that you're using have come from and all of the people who have spoken those words, how they've contributed to its meaning over time. And then there are very, very hard, science-y linguists and I tend more towards that side of the field who are essentially creating mathematical models that sit behind products like Alexa. So a popular thing for people who graduated from my program at Stanford was to get sucked up into the likes of Google or Apple at the height of their production of new technologies. And I was always straddling that line because I'm a person who's interested in people, and so, at the end of the day, I'm interested at the intersection between people and technology. So how can we leverage technology for social good and how can we think about the ways in which we interact with websites, with computers, from a psychological perspective to help people feel better? Right? And so that's really the energy that I brought to Fifth Dimension AI when I was thinking about some of my first jobs in technology, where I was understood to have the ability to do statistics, which is an important thing if you're going to start programming. Actually, a lot of it is math space, right. But at the same time people didn't realize that I was really interested in building stuff that people loved, and so over time I kind of fell into the idea that the perfect space for me to occupy was in product building. So you can be really interested in programming and you can like solving puzzles, but for me it has to be building something real that someone's going to use someday. And that's also part of the beautiful thing about being in PropTech, right, is that you know that anything that you build on the internet relates to this beautiful building that you're sitting in today and the garden that you get to look at when you're at your laptop having a remote video call, right.
Dr Kate Jarvis:And I think some technology sectors don't have that connection with the real world and it's a really nice bit of property technology. But PropTech is broad, right, like I think one of the wonderful things about it is it touches a lot of different sectors, and that's part of why I wanted to work in it as well, as it kind of expands out rather than narrows down the deeper you get into it, so there are, for example, a lot of conferences now in construction technology, which is something that 10, 20 years ago wasn't even a field, right Contact. What's that so? Nowadays, though, it means things like how are we creating automation for looking at floor plans or generating different architectural designs, and does artificial intelligence play a role in that? Of course it does, so things like that can be included under the PropTech banner, as well as things in financial technology.
Dr Kate Jarvis:Like I mentioned at my previous business, anytime you're dealing with real estate, you're dealing with high value assets, right, and so one of the reasons we're interested in real estate at Fifth Dimension AI is that gosh, people put so much time and money into finding a home they love. Shouldn't it just be easier to buy one?
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, yeah, completely. I love the fact that you said the industry is incredibly broad. Where do you see it progressing in the future? You touched upon AI. Obviously Is that kind of should we expect to see more of that? And that's just kind of where the sector is going to progress.
Dr Kate Jarvis:Yeah, absolutely so. I think that, as we all know, real estate is not doing so hot right now. Anyone who's in the industry is the first to say that. But what they also know which I think is not necessarily apparent to people who haven't spent time in property and in PropTech is that it's part of a down cycle that will inevitably turn up again. Right, there's always these cycles in property, and I think the world at large and economies at large get really freaked out. Oh no, housing prices, blah, blah, blah. And yes, it matters and it does impact people's lives, but there's never going to be not be a time when that activity picks up again. Right, customs are still going to be bought and sold. That's a fact at the end of the day. But one of the interesting things about market down cycles is that difficulty drives innovation.
Dr Kate Jarvis:Right, and this is part of why it's so exciting to be in PropTech right now is people are looking at their budgets and saying, huh, how could I have a leaner team that does as much, if not more, than today? Classic business problem, one that I think a lot of CEOs are really feeling in real estate right now, and I do think the answer to that the golden opportunity is in generative AI, because it's just perfectly molded to enhance productivity, automate boring tasks away and allow people to unlock their exceptional right. Get right to where they're adding their expertise rather than getting paid, you know, 100,000 pounds a year to be an analyst at a popular agency and literally spending most of that time trying to figure out how to do an Excel formula. That's not what you want to be doing if you're that analyst and it's not what you want to be paying someone to do as an employer. So I think those companies that adopt generative AI are going to be the leaders of tomorrow in property.
Kayleigh Bateman:I completely agree, and you're right. It's kind of why would you want to pay somebody to figure those things out when they can really just get on with the job? I think sometimes people have always seen and I've heard this throughout the tech sector for some time that when new things come along, people tend to see them as a threat because they think it's taking our jobs, it's taking up part of our jobs, but actually just freeze up your time normally to do other things. So it's just kind of reframing things, new things as they come in, and AI seems to be one of those things again where people are saying it's going to replace all our jobs. Obviously it is not. I want to talk to you a little bit about women and the opportunities. What opportunities does the sector present to women, do you think? Thank you.
Dr Kate Jarvis:So I guess the question that I would ask is what opportunities do women present to the sector? Because women are part of the workforce, right, they belong anywhere that work is happening and important business is being done. What I think has been missed in the history of the property sector, and in PropTech specifically, is, of course, that it's been dominated by older white men and particular ways of thinking, and, you know, binders full of data sitting and collecting dust on a desktop, rather than new technologies like generative AI. And, as we know, you know, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that diversity of thought leads to better outcomes, better commercial outcomes. We need more women contributing to property technology, or the sector itself isn't going to be able to survive. And so you know, I think what I would encourage women to think about in going into property technology is please apply for that job, even if you don't meet 100% of the qualifications, because you have valuable skills, valuable mindset and, particularly in thinking about the customer experience of products, right Empathy, as I was talking about building products that people love.
Dr Kate Jarvis:Women naturally often have a deep empathy for other people in their lives, and that is an incredibly powerful asset in building technology, because whether or not you can retain a user, if you can get someone to buy your product, that's great. If they hate it, you're not going to retain that revenue, right. And if they love it, if you can really tap into someone's emotional response to a product that they use, that person is going to be a customer for life. And I feel like that's one of many value ads of women entering the property technology field. If it doesn't give you joy to scroll through right move looking for your next home, like someone should solve that problem, right yeah.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, I love the fact you mentioned that about job applications. I hear that so often. So many ladies say if I don't tick all the boxes, I don't apply. And it's insane, because you're absolutely right. A lot of the time, you know, they don't always ask for things like empathy. They might be asking for technical skills. Sometimes job applications don't even ask for soft skills, and a lot of our community as well, our career switches and they've been in work, you know, sort of 10, 15 years already, but they've come from another industry and they're transitioning into technology.
Kayleigh Bateman:Property would be, you know, a perfect example of that.
Kayleigh Bateman:But ladies will go through and they'll think you know, I don't tick all of these and I don't have, all you know, more than two years experience that they're asking for.
Kayleigh Bateman:So I just won't give it a go anyway and see. And it's a brilliant advice to just say just apply, just see what happens if you apply. Because, especially, you know, if you say you've been in, even if you haven't been in property, the property industry before, it seems like a natural transition if you were to go into prop tech anyway. But I've had lots of guests on here that have come from completely unrelated industries into tech and found their way, in which we absolutely love to hear all the different stories into technology on here, by the way. And in terms of skills coming into the tech sector, and if, say, you were transitioning into prop tech or you were just, you know, starting to think you might want to not fall into prop tech and you've considered that union, you definitely know you want to do it what skills would be helpful for somebody looking for a career in prop tech? Is there anything that you've picked up along the way that you feel would be helpful for our listeners?
Dr Kate Jarvis:Sure thing. So I think it depends what kind of role you're looking at. If you are getting into programming, mathematics always helps. No one has ever regretted taking that extra math course because it helps with general reasoning as well as with learning different programming languages. But I think more than that, I would try and amplify the skills that you already have, as you were saying.
Dr Kate Jarvis:I think so much of this is just about reframing to ourselves what we're already good at, to understand how it's appealing to the property technology sector. So that could be playing up the soft skills. It could even be talking about how passionate you are about the use of technology yourself, because if I'm reading your application, what that tells me is you know what good looks like, right? If you are talking about how your favorite banking app is Monzo, I'm going to be like yeah, I know what that means, right, it has a color scheme that's appealing. It has, you know, particular savings buckets that have been targeted to my age demographic. There's a lot of thought that goes behind that, and so really, any way that you can express whether it's through your CV or through a letter in your application that you are thinking about, you have that great attention to detail of what brings a user of technology joy. That's what always brings a standout application to me.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, definitely, and I completely agree. When somebody talks about something that they're very passionate about, it's far easier to gauge whether or not that person you know. For instance, if you're missing some of those skills but you come across as incredibly passionate and you're talking about the tech that you love, then that employer, nine times out of ten, is looking at them, thinking well, you miss a couple of things on the job application, but we could probably train you up in that area. And again, your employer or future employer won't know that unless you reply and at least get through to a screening interview where you can really sell yourself and sort of things that you love. And so which is why your advice on just apply is so absolutely perfect, you obviously love your job in the sector. What do you love about your role in this sector? It sounds really buried and you know, and also it sounds like it changes quite rapidly as well. Is that something you would agree with, and what other things do you love about it?
Dr Kate Jarvis:Yes, I definitely never have the same day twice, and I do enjoy that. I think a lot of people who are attracted to technology honestly like a bit of chaos and they like sifting through a lot of noise to find the message, to find the signal, and so that is something that I enjoy about my job. I have a ton of information coming at me all the time and I have to decide, okay, what are the three things that are important to me to get done today. So that's definitely a part of it, but I think, at a less intellectual and more emotional level, I really love breaking new ground every day.
Dr Kate Jarvis:It's not always comfortable and it's not always easy, but I love the feeling of walking into a C-suite that is full of white men who have always dominated the property industry or the technology sector, looking around, thinking about the wealth that's in this room. What are the combined sort of personal wealths that I see in front of me? And I walk in and all eyes turn to me because I'm the only woman they've ever seen in this environment and I know, therefore, that I'm in a really unique and powerful position to bring a new perspective to this industry. So I feel like I'm opening the door and saying, hi, I'm the future of your industry. Let's talk about what that looks like. So that feeling is just incredibly precious, and I imagine a whole army of women following me through that door and offering their expertise as well Amazing.
Kayleigh Bateman:And I would say as well, from your conversation throughout this as well, it sounds as if you really you can see the impact that you're making every day as well, and I think a lot of people when they join the tech industry, they don't always realise the work that they're doing and the difference it's going to make. It's quite obvious in prop tech, isn't it, that you can actually see the things that you're building are helping people in their daily lives, and that must be quite a nice feeling as well, isn't it that you get to see that live down, you get to see that customer and how it improves their day to day.
Dr Kate Jarvis:Yeah, that's right, and it's such an important and often stressful experience right buying or selling a home and one of my favourite parts of being anywhere in that value chain is getting to know customers who have bought a new home that they love, and it's really changed their lives. I remember when I was working at Way Home it would be sort of a pastime that we would spend our mornings listening to customer calls and these are folks who had given up on the idea of home ownership, maybe because they started working for themselves. And a lot of classic mortgage companies are like I don't know, that income doesn't count, and they're like I have a very stable job, thank you. What am I supposed to do? I would like to have a home that actually fits my three kids and suits my family, and the idea that we could provide them with something that I was building, a technology that allowed that person the security and that feeling of walking into a home they know is theirs and no one can take that away from them, is just so powerful.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, yes, I love that. Just seeing what you're doing in that point into action makes such a difference. Can I also say a bit about keeping up to date when we run live webinars, it's something that I'll get asked a lot. I take it you still continue to learn in your personal time and in terms of keeping up with your career progression, and it's something that you continually do in technology, isn't it? You're going to have to stay ahead of the curve. Do you take time out to still learn and progress personally?
Dr Kate Jarvis:Yes, I'm not a finished project so highly aware of that fact and it really it permeates every aspect of my life. So we are as co-founders, johnny and myself, we have a founder coach, because we know that that is something that we need support in in developing ourselves in this new role. So I've been an operator before. I've been an executive. I've never founded a business. So how would I know how to do that without some help? And even if it is something I've done 10 times, as you're saying, the world of technology is always changing. That's part of what's so wonderful and what's so beautiful about it, and it does create this sense of FOMO. What if I get left behind? What if I spent six weeks focusing on this one aspect of my business and then suddenly a brilliant new technology comes out that supersedes what we know of artificial intelligence today? So I tried to not hold on to that as fear but as inspiration and say, okay, what's the lowest sort of time or resource way I can accessibly get into that topic right?
Dr Kate Jarvis:Often it's phoning a friend. Hey, I know someone who's a donating expert in data science and I saw I read something on the internet. I'm not really sure what it means. You unpack. That. For me, and having a network that can help you do that, therefore, is really helpful. It could also be asking your employer to have funding to do a Python course, and that just helps you expand your skill set. But it's really important to, I think, find that right balance between keeping an ear to the ground of what's happening and new innovations and everything happening all of the time, and trusting your instincts, because building technology again, ultimately, is about creating that emotional response in the person who's using it. So don't get too carried away by trying to implement blockchain in your basic website if it doesn't belong there, right. So new technology is really important. Have to stay abreast of them, but they have a time and a place.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, trust your instincts. That's really good advice. I have always go with your gut. We are almost out of time and I wanted to ask you one last question about advice. Now you're in PROPTECH and you've been in it a few years and you know what it's like. Do you have any final advice for our listeners who might be thinking about a career in PROPTECH?
Dr Kate Jarvis:Yes. So I think you need to find a mentor, but specifically not someone who's just there to listen to your feelings and to tell you to lean in and get over yourself. Right, yeah, and not so much.
Dr Kate Jarvis:What you actually need is, yeah, get a therapist for that. What you actually need is someone who can put their employer's revenue and their own skin in the game their reputation behind you in order to get you hired and get you paid what you deserve, to get you in front of the right people in your industry to build that reputation. So I have, for example, like a whole list of women that have followed me from different jobs because I know they can succeed. They've already proved whatever they needed to prove to me and I'm more than happy to hire them again, and I'm just so excited to know brilliant women who I can always employ, and I think everyone should have that person in their life.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, definitely. That's amazing advice Not only finding somebody that is very honest or gives you good not always good feedback, but just constructive feedback. I love the fact that you mentioned I haven't heard that phrase before. You said a founder coach, and I haven't heard of one of them before. But you're absolutely right. If you've done other things but you might not have founded a business, so you're not going to know what that is like and the decisions that you should be making, that's a completely different area and that's something I haven't heard of before. To go and find a coach to help you when you become a founder, I mean that's. It sounds like a no-brainer. I don't think a lot of people would think that that was a founder, wouldn't they? Or at least be humble enough to think that they need help.
Dr Kate Jarvis:Yeah, I mean, it's funny, right? I think there's some sort of negative perception of the fact that we're always learning, but in fact, like, if you don't admit that you don't know something, you can't learn it. And there's so many people around you who are going to have expertise that they can offer you along the way, and why wouldn't you want to take advantage of that? I am so thrilled and I feel so lucky and grateful to be in a job where I spend most of my time now doing stuff that I don't know already. That's part of why I wanted to found a business is I wanted to feel kind of perpetually challenged and if maybe even a little confused, befuddled, at a loss. But you know, I know, I know myself. I've been in an industry a long time, I've been a technologist a long time. I know I can get through to the other side in that. So I think you know we just have to trust ourselves that what happens in the learning process isn't always easy, but we do hit a stride. You just got to push through.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, and that is amazing advice, a lovely positive note to end on, because we are already out of time. It's absolutely flown by. Thank you so much for coming on and talking about this area. It is completely new to me. It might not be new to our listeners, but I hope that I know that lots of our listeners would have taken so much from our conversation today about working in Proctex. So thank you for taking time out of your incredibly busy day. Okay, so thank you so much for coming along and having a chat.
Dr Kate Jarvis:Yeah, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
Kayleigh Bateman:Thank you for everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.