As a woman in tech, and person of colour, Penny Gawera has plenty of experience being 'the only' in the room.
It can feel lonely at times, but the truth is you're not alone.
Finding her community has been the key to Penny’s success in the tech industry, and in this episode of Spilling The T you can find yours too!
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
As a woman in tech, and person of colour, Penny Gawera has plenty of experience being 'the only' in the room.
It can feel lonely at times, but the truth is you're not alone.
Finding her community has been the key to Penny’s success in the tech industry, and in this episode of Spilling The T you can find yours too!
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone, thank you for joining me again. I am Katie Bakesman, the content director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing how to combat being the only and how to find your community. As a more mini tech and a brown girl, any Gorrera has plenty of experience being the only in the room. It can feel lonely at times, but the truth is you're not alone. Finding her community has been the key to penny success in the tech industry and she's going to share some of her experiences with us today. Welcome, penny. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. Hi, thank you so much for having me so pleasure to have you on. We're going to kick off with a bit of background about you, if that's okay, just to set the tone.
Penny Gawera:Yeah, amazing. So I always tell people I'm a pharma consultant and software engineer, so I haven't done that one.
Penny Gawera:Yeah, I know it's like my unique selling point at this point. So I actually studied biochemistry at university, so I'm a scientist at heart. When I graduated I then went into the medical communications industry. So I was basically doing sales and marketing for pharma companies, helping them with their marketing strategies. I wanted a bit more of a challenge career-wise. I could see it was a very sort of linear path upwards. So actually, alongside this job I began my masters in computer science because I could sort of see the intersection between biology and the biotech world and I thought if I did computing I could access quite an exciting niche there. So once I finished my masters I then got my first software engineering role at a biotech startup. So, yeah, sort of worked out sort of perfectly along the way. And yeah, now currently I work on Bluetooth for audio applications. So, yeah, sort of a very squiggly career path.
Kayleigh Bateman:And you know what you have a squiggly career path but a super interesting one, because a lot of ladies on here they transition from one industry into another and you don't tend to hear people say and then I took a computer science degree. I tend to hear ladies that knew they wanted to take computer science but actually you took really good STEM, very solid subjects and came from one industry into another and still got your computer science degree and experience.
Penny Gawera:So yeah, that's quite a lot of experience already?
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, fantastic. And you said that you were a scientist at heart. Was that something from when you were young? Did you see someone on TV, or did you have a hero that you really loved that was a scientist? Or what was it about STEM?
Penny Gawera:I'm actually not sure, because all of my family it's sort of gone more the mathematical sort of route like accounting. And yeah, I was sort of I don't know where the interest in science came from. I've always just loved the subject at school and even when I picked it for university I didn't know at the end what I was gonna do with it. As well, I've always been one to just sort of follow what I feel like. So when I graduated I was sort of like, okay, what can I do with a biochemistry degree? I've always just sort of followed what I found interesting. So yeah, I've just always loved science at school really and then just thought that's what I'd want to study at university.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, it sounds like as well that at least there wasn't a bad experience at school that kind of turned you off that subject. I hear that often as well. The teachers didn't really know what careers to go in, that we could go into, or they didn't really make the subject very fun, especially sometimes as you go, as you pick your university course, for instance, and suddenly you might find yourself as the only girl on the course or a handful of girls on the course. It can turn a lot of young girls off and think maybe this isn't for me, but you followed it right through to getting your first job, so at least that was a good experience.
Penny Gawera:Yeah, absolutely, and I think, now that you've said that, I thinking back, I think I was quite lucky in that sense because I was, by the second year of A-levels, the only girl in my chemistry class and the same for maths as well. So I think I got very lucky in that I had amazing teachers and I never felt that in a sense at school, because that is, yeah, as you say, that's a big problem at school with girls being put off. So I think, yeah, I got very lucky?
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, definitely, and we're going to talk to say about, well, some of those challenges. Thankfully you didn't have them at school and you did make it through to the workplace. But we're going to talk a little bit about some of those challenges, so can we kick off? With what? Do you think some of the challenges are for women of colour in the tech space?
Penny Gawera:Yeah, I think, yeah, a few on this one. I think unconscious bias is one. I think that's a buzzword that sort of gone around a lot, but it is very true. I think people have an idea of what a software engineer or someone in engineering you know looks like. You sort of think of that. You know, image like in the movies, coding in the basement, you know that type of thing.
Penny Gawera:But it does make it a lot more difficult because there's assumptions on you know, your intelligence and whether you're able to do the job, because you don't fit into that mold.
Penny Gawera:You know you walk into a room and you're sort of like you get that, oh, you're a software engineer, you know, type thing. So I think you have a lot more hoops to jump through and burnout is a really big problem as well. Having to, you know, get that extra mile to try and prove yourself and to show that you belong here. I think specifically in the workplace as well, company culture and lack of representation and role models. I really believe in you know you can't be what you can't see and I think if you, if you don't see, you know how you can progress your career higher up, then you know you're less inclined. We're seeing that more and more women are leaving the tech industry just after they join because you know they can't see a way through. So, yeah, I think company culture and having role models and sort of senior management women as well is a. You know, we need a bit more representation, I think.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, I agree, I love the fact you picked up on image and sometimes people are very surprised by what people do and some of that is changing. I still think that's that that is still there. People unfortunately make those assumptions and we were only at an event yesterday and, granted, we were handing out flyers, so people are going to make assumptions on what your day job is anyway, and we were there to kind of spread promotion about chicken code and a couple of the questions were you know how to approach on the things that they kind of wanted to talk about but didn't know if you would understand. Somebody said to me I said do you understand? Do you know what SAS is? If I talked to you about SAS, would you, would you know what I mean? And I said yes.
Kayleigh Bateman:And then someone else said if I were to talk to you about the dark web, like you know, and they kind of look at you like I'm not quite sure what I can ask you until you say yes, I've worked in technology for years and you can talk to me about that subject. Because you are right, people do make those assumptions and I don't think I was make them with men. They just kind of go ahead and have a conversation about SAS or the dark web or you know whatever it is they want to talk about. It's almost like they're testing the water with you, because a lot of that you said. Somebody might say oh, you're a soft wrench.
Penny Gawera:Yeah, you get the face a lot like, oh okay, like I can talk to you about this, but yeah, it's that assumption. I think you hit the nail on the head. If it was a man, I don't know if you'd get that same sort of surprise, which is, yeah, just a bit sad. I think you know.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, definitely, and, as we said, things are changing and you know that that's gonna, and I was relieved actually yesterday that the expo that was that I was thinking 15 years ago. I would go to those expos and you would be the only woman and you know you might bump into another lady in the toilets and you'd be like, hey, there's another woman here, whereas yesterday they were everywhere, which was really nice to see. That it was, you know, still not equal, but there were lots of ladies everywhere at that show, which is, you know, we're obviously moving forward as an industry and we're not quite there on everything, but yeah, we're moving in the right direction.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, just to see other ladies that you don't bump into just in the toilets was brilliant, and I know. What more do you think needs to be done to tackle some of these problems?
Penny Gawera:I think a few things. One main thing is starting at the bottom. So education, I think for me, although I did study STEM and I know this is changing now but there was no coding, no computer science. I hadn't even heard of Python at school. So it's almost you know, you can't go into something that you're not aware of. So I think we need more education at school, especially for underrepresented minorities, so young girls, people of color, people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, showing them that this is something you can do, like it's not if you only see it on the movies as this certain type of person, you sort of think, oh well, maybe that's not for me, but yeah, I think, education in schools surrounding software, engineering and computing and everything tech. But that's very much a long term solution. So that's you know, we can't wait 10 or 10 or so odd years for that to happen.
Penny Gawera:So I think in the short term as well, open mindedness around career switches. So I can speak for myself and saying that getting my first job in tech was very hard. There was a lot of scrutiny around switching careers and I it was always seen as a negative, which maybe it was naive. I didn't quite expect. I just thought, you know, having the biochemistry and then the computing and then, oh, I'll just work in biotech and it will be fine.
Penny Gawera:But yeah, there's I think there's a lot of sort of closed mindedness around career switches. I think we should embrace the skills that come with it. So I worked in sales and marketing. I have a lot of, you know, organizational skills, soft skills, creativity, all of which are required to be a software developer as well, and that with just experience in the working world. You know, as a grad, you have to train someone up, so all of these things are transferable. But yeah, I think, if we accept people from different backgrounds, that would be great and also a culture change, because we've also got a situation where, you know, people like me are joining the tech industry but then also leaving as well. So, although it's great if we get more people in, not so great if they don't stay. So a real culture change and creating an inclusive environment, you know, where there's equal opportunities for everyone in terms of, you know, progression and pay parity and, yeah, every, all sorts of things like that to just make sure that we don't start losing people as well.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yes, I completely agree. I read a great article about that recently, about you know. We've spent so much time working on recruiting people to the tech industry. Is it now just time to think about how we retain that talent, that that female talent in particular? Because, you are absolutely right, there's no point somebody coming in and then a couple of years later they've exited for whatever reason that is. We need to know why that is and to figure out how to keep them. And I love the fact that you mentioned career transitioners. We speak to so many of them. Actually, you can code. You are absolutely right.
Kayleigh Bateman:The tech industry says, it says quite openly we are open to everybody, we want more talent.
Kayleigh Bateman:And then you see a job spec that says several years experience and needs a computer science degree. You need several years experience, yeah, from a tech background, and you think this is like the same one thing. And then actually the job applications go out and you know they're completely different stories and I agree that even you know just being more open to different careers and, like yours, you was a, you know, a great transitioner and you would have had brilliant experience in a really good you know STEM subject. Why wouldn't you have made the perfect tech candidate and you get ladies from completely different careers that are still coming over with really good soft skills. They've been in work a really long time, so they've got the advantage of just knowing what life is like at work. So why wouldn't you just train them up in the area that you know tech wise that you need them to fulfill, which sounds like a no brainer, but, as you said, it's not, and you for some reason struggled when you tried to get your first job.
Penny Gawera:So yeah, it was really difficult. I think it's as you say, it's the sort of traditional bachelor's in computer sciences, sort of treated almost like a tick box exercise. So it wasn't that. I, you know if I could do the coding interviews, you know I could well pass them, I hope. But it was even getting the foot in the. You know, even getting that first call back for an interview, you know, not even getting those, I assume, because you know CVs are filtered. I'd love to hear more from a recruitment side on sort of how it works, but from just what I imagine is that your CV just gets filtered out because even just to get callbacks for, to even get the opportunity to do a technical interview which as a career switcher, you know you would have done your courses and boot camps or whatever else it is and you would have the skills to pass those tests, but it's just even getting to that stage to be able to prove that you can, which is definitely, and that leads on to as well.
Kayleigh Bateman:I wanted to ask you about communities that you might have worked with to kind of help you with those first steps. Do you have any communities that you would recommend to our listeners, anyone that really helped you when you were first looking?
Penny Gawera:Yeah, I think for me it's been a weird one. I sort of did the transition into tech first, sort of feeling really alone. And it's only this year, after I'd already got my job in tech, that I realized you know, oh, there's a whole community of female developers. I've yet to work with one, so I sort of went seeking it out so I can give advice in terms of communities that I would recommend having known them now, but unfortunately at the time I was transitioning into tech, I just I wasn't aware of them and I feel like it would have made things a lot easier. But I would say well, I have to mention first she can code, obviously. Thank you, I'm a little plug there.
Penny Gawera:But obviously I came to your power hack a couple of months ago and that was just amazing Because, as I said, I so I've only worked at startups, so I've always been the sole female developer, sole person of color, sole, you know, with a squiggly career path as well. So it's very difficult to find somebody that can relate to those experiences. So, yeah, going to things like that, you meet people from all different backgrounds, which is amazing. Another one I would mention is Next Tech Girls, headed up by the lovely Emily. So this is more aimed at. Well, it's a community. So I do a bit of work with them as a role model. So we actually speak to, you know, girls at school and help them try and get work experience, and they host events and I speak to them, you know, about my career path and how I got into tech and showing them that it's an option. So that's a really amazing one Because the role models there's a community there of you know, working women in tech, which is amazing.
Penny Gawera:And I think last one well, last two, I'll mention one is Girl Code. I am an ambassador for them. They do some amazing stuff. It's a community for women in tech. They have mentorship opportunities. They partner with companies, they suggest courses and things, so they're amazing. And also Code First Girls. If you're wanting to transition into tech and learn to code, I think there would really be a great place to start. If you're thinking about it and you want to sort of test the waters, yeah, I would definitely recommend doing one of their courses. I think they're usually free, so Amazing.
Kayleigh Bateman:I obviously love all of the networks that you just mentioned we're trying to get.
Kayleigh Bateman:We're just securing a date with Next Tech Girls Hopefully she's coming on our podcast to have a little chat as well, because all of those networks do fantastic things. And thank you for plugging our hackathons, because hopefully, as well, you get that feel of. We were really surprised that a lot of ladies that come along to those hackathons haven't been to a hackathon before, which we really loved. It was like they felt like it was a safe space. Come along, learn something new, as you said, make some new connections and have something that, if you want that experience, you can put it on your CV, that you know worked on a project as a team, those kind of things. So I'm really pleased that you obviously love coming along to them and we hope to see you with the next one as well.
Kayleigh Bateman:So, but yeah, you are absolutely right, there are some brilliant networks out there that can really help you. It's a shame that you didn't know about them before you come into tech, which is, you know I hear that often, though it's like a well kept secret Once you're in pretty much yeah, yeah, and when you do ask a little bit about. In a mal-dominated world, it can be hard to find your voice, and do you have any tips on being heard at work?
Penny Gawera:Yeah, I think I have. Yeah, I think, a few that I've learned along the way, shall we say. I think, be confident. I think that's difficult sometimes, especially if you have imposter syndrome and you're sort of already feeling like you don't belong. But you just have to remember that you were hired, you passed the test, you're here because you're good at what you do. So I think you just need to remember that if you think something, say it and don't let your voice be spoken over.
Penny Gawera:As difficult as it is, I've definitely sat in some meetings and you know, if someone's talked over me or I have a point, I don't voice it, and I was definitely like that at the start. But you sort of gain confidence as you go along as well and think, yeah, actually I have a valid point, I'm going to speak. Or you know I'm actually, I'm doing this presentation, so I'm going to talk. So yeah, I think confidence and also mindset. Again, with imposter syndrome you can start to feel like you're not qualified. Remember that you did do your boot camp and that you can do it, even if people are telling you you can't do it. I think just telling yourself that I can do it, it's not that hard and I am smart enough to do it. And something that helps with that is finding your champions as well. It's going to be very difficult if you try and go it alone. You need someone that believes in you. It almost helps you believe in yourself. So, whether it's a colleague at work or maybe a mentor or sponsor, even friends and family, someone that believes in you can give you objective advice.
Penny Gawera:I'd say, for me that's my parents. They've always been my rock, I think. For me, they ever since I was a little girl. They've always told me there's nothing I can't do If I don't. If I just put my mind to it, there's nothing I can't do. So I think that's really helped me. Honestly, in the tech industry, I've never believed from switching careers, as I said, I just sort of thought, yeah, I'll do a masters and switch now. It didn't occur to me. Well, that's not traditionally how people do things. I've just always had the belief that yeah.
Kayleigh Bateman:I can do it, and I think that's largely due to them. I love that. I love the fact that you have parents that are so supportive as well, but it just always said to you, whatever you want to do, even if you said they didn't have experience in what you wanted to do, but they still said just believe in yourself and just go for it. To have an influence from home is just so helpful. And you're absolutely right, though, having extra people as you go through to remind you of those things, because the reality is, you get into work and you have those days where you're right.
Kayleigh Bateman:You're sitting in a meeting and someone will say something and it will kind of push you down a little bit and you'll think maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, or maybe I thought I was confident in a particular area and maybe I'm not, and you kind of need that little reassurance and that little reminder sometimes to say you know what, you're just having a bad day, or you know everything is fine and keep pushing and keep going. And finding those throughout your work life, throughout your career, is so important, and just having those champions, as you called them. You couldn't agree with you more there, and actually, that leads into wanting to ask you is networking important for finding your tribe? And your tribe can really help with at least reminding you you know what you were hired for a reason and they can really help you with, you know, moving on in your career as well, can't? I mean? Networking is incredibly important, isn't it?
Penny Gawera:Yeah, absolutely. I was going to say, as well, you know that community as well because, as I say, for me, I've never worked with a female developer, so it's very difficult to you know explain some of the challenges I guess that you face in a male-dominated industry. So finding your community and all of these other women that are experiencing the same things, and it's almost that validation as well, isn't it of like yeah, no, like people are speaking over you or yeah, no, you are smart enough, like this? You know something isn't quite right because otherwise you feel you start to feel like you're the problem a little bit. But in terms of networking, I would say yeah, 100%. The only answer to is that important for finding your tribe?
Penny Gawera:As I mentioned, being the only female, only person of color, and my very squiggly career journey, it's, you know, it's very difficult to find someone with that experience in through networking. I had no idea, I thought I was a rare find with my, you know, farmer consultant turned software engineer. There's a whole community of career switches. So if anyone listening is thinking, you know, I'm feeling very alone trying to transition into tech. I didn't know there was a whole community until I started networking and then I found my sort of tribe of career switches. So, yeah, it really does open your eyes. Your people are there, you just need to know where to look. So networking is a great place to start.
Kayleigh Bateman:Definitely. I couldn't agree more, and anything with networking is, so I wanted to ask you a little bit about the fact that networking is incredibly daunting. It can be really daunting to walk into a room on your own. Do you have any tips for our listeners on networking, because it is incredibly important If you're if you're not that sort of person you think you know. I just can't walk up to someone and say, hey, I'm so and so let's connect. How do you do that if you know that's really not in your personality?
Penny Gawera:Yeah, it does take practice. I'll admit the very first. I remember the very first networking event that I went to and yeah, I was that person sort of standing in the corner. I think they had like some food or so I was just sort of listening to the conversations going around Like wanting to get involved, but, you know, a little bit shy. I think there's things you can do.
Penny Gawera:First thing is mindset again. So if you start to remember that everyone's in the same boat, you know everyone's feeling a little bit awkward and not really knowing what to do with themselves. I think that sort of helps. And then also, humans are nice generally. It's not so scary when you think about it If you, if you just think, okay, all I'm going to do is I'm going to go up to this person and speak to them, and what's the worst that can happen? They're not going to. You know they're not going to tell you to go away, or you know they're at the event for the same reason as well. So you already have a common interest as well If you're both at the same event. So I'd say, don't try to strike up conversation. I know that's sort of easier said than done. So maybe some practical advice as well, if you're sort of like, yeah, that's great mindset and everything, but I don't know what to say.
Kayleigh Bateman:Yeah, yeah, and I think some some events are harder to network than others. Like the thought of when somebody says it's a networking event and they're going to bring out alcohol and you've all got to stand and awkwardly chat to each other. That I don't like the thought of that, whereas, for instance, the hack-a-pons you're in, when you're in a group, you all just naturally chat and make friends and make connections and you know that's kind of it's not. We don't pitch it as a networking event, but hopefully you made lots of good connections for each one and and you know as as hopefully you come back. Then you're just naturally networking and it's not actually a networking event. So surely that's a little bit easier. Yeah.
Penny Gawera:Exactly.
Penny Gawera:Yeah, that's. That's part of the reason I love hackathon. So you sort of put into a team. You already have that bonding experience as well.
Penny Gawera:I think I actually went to one recently as well. They had like a sort of scavenger hunt thing as well. So it's like go up to someone with you know, someone with glasses, and then, you know, ask them this question. It would be like you know, what did you want to do when you were younger or something like that. So almost like forces you to like as part of a game type thing. So, even though it's a networking event and so that was a really great way.
Penny Gawera:But I think if you're, I think if you're at an event, where is that sort of you have to just walk around. I think practical advice would be networking is like a sandwich. Just go with me. So first slice of bread is the intro and that is the hardest part going up to someone and having to talk to them. I think if it's a group, you just go up to them and ask if you can join, or if it's one on one, I find that a little bit easier, less intimidating, but you just sort of go. You know, hi, I'm Penny, I work at. You know so and so. So how are you finding it? Or, you know, make some small talk. You know where do you work, something like that, and I know it's the most daunting part. But as soon as you get that response because usually people are happy to talk, you know you'll get that. Oh, I work here. Like, how did you hear about this event? You know, just make a little bit of small talk and then once you're into it, you're absolutely fine.
Penny Gawera:So I guess the middle would be the filling of the sandwich. You know you can ask them about where they work, how they heard about this event. You know you can connect on LinkedIn if maybe you have similar roles and you can just have a chat and it's really nice. And then the final slice of bread in the sandwich would be the end and I know that's sort of a little bit awkward sometimes as well. You're sort of, okay, I'll finish talking now. Like, maybe you've connected on LinkedIn and you're sort of like, what do I do now? Usually, just, you know it's been so nice talking to you. I'm going to go grab, you know, a drink or food that's usually lovely, or like, oh, I'm going to go talk to someone over there. I don't know if that helps, but that's what I would use because I know there's probably people listening, thinking but practically what do I say? So you can just copy those. I hope that helps.
Kayleigh Bateman:Definitely. You are right. I think it petrifies some people to think I have to go into a room and approach people. What do I say? How do I even integrate into a group? You're right, even one to one is a little bit easier and start in a conversation that way and it's not for everybody, but it is incredibly important you never really know who you're going to meet. Even just you know. As you said, there is food and drink, but sometimes you get chatting at Buff Face, which is that kind of breaks the ice a little bit. You meet the best people in the queue at Buff Face and then eventually you know, you kind of share where you work and what you do and you kind of find some common ground. But yeah, brilliant advice. You're absolutely right. At least have a plan. A bit of a plan will make you feel a little bit better. We are almost out of time and it is flying by, so I want to ask you finally do you have any advice for anyone feeling like they are alone in the workplace?
Penny Gawera:Yeah, I'd say find your people, so that could be in the workplace. Usually, if you work at a large company, there's maybe a women's network that you haven't heard about they usually do events or maybe there's another woman in a different department. Maybe you see them. You know about getting a coffee or something. Again, that networking thing, just go up and say hi, you know you could subtly go over, you know for coffee at the same time, or something like that. But externally as well is great, as I said, for me being the sole female at a company, I usually go to these networking events.
Penny Gawera:Looking online, you know, on Eventbrite or at these amazing communities that we've mentioned, they do a lot of networking events and hackathons, but you can meet so many lovely people and usually see the same people about as well, which is really lovely to build a community. So, for example, at the she Can Code hackathon I had met someone that I'd previously met at a Next Tech Girls event. So it's, you know, you see the same sort of people that want the same sort of things out of it as well. And I'd say follow up on LinkedIn as well. Once you meet these people, if you've built a meaningful connection somewhere, you know, follow up and then that's sort of how you build these relationships and yeah, it's great, I'd say, find your people.
Kayleigh Bateman:Brilliant. That is wonderful advice to anybody that is feeling alone in the workplace. You're absolutely right. Building that network it's just one person at a time, and it's great that when you do go to a hackathon, you bump into similar people and then you tell them about other hackathons and so on and so on, and we love that, our hacks because we get to see a lot of the same ladies again and also we just get to see how that network continues to grow. So we absolutely love that. And at she Can Code, penny, I could talk to you for like just all afternoon. We are already out of time on this episode, so thank you so much for taking the time out to share your insights with us today.
Kayleigh Bateman:It's been a pleasure.
Penny Gawera:Thank you so much. I've had a lot of fun, as you say, I could talk for another few hours, but we can have you back for another episode.
Kayleigh Bateman:Thank you so much. Thank you for everybody listening, as always. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.