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SheCanCode's Spilling The T
SheCanCode's Spilling The T
Why a non-linear career isn't a bad thing
In this eye-opening podcast episode, we delve into the idea that a non-linear career journey isn't something to be feared, but rather embraced and celebrated.
Joining us today is Jane Lockwood, COO, Daemon, who shares personal anecdotes and insights as she navigated a non-linear paths.
Discover how these unconventional routes can lead to unique skill sets, diverse experiences, and ultimately, personal growth and fulfillment.
Tune in to learn why breaking away from the traditional career trajectory can be a powerful catalyst for success in today's dynamic and ever-changing job landscape.
Unleash the potential of your non-linear career journey and take control of your path to success!
SheCanCode is a collaborative community of women in tech working together to tackle the tech gender gap.
Join our community to find a supportive network, opportunities, guidance and jobs, so you can excel in your tech career.
Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in Again. I am Kayleigh Batesman, the content director at she Can Code, and today we are discussing why a non-linear career isn't a bad thing. We're delving into the idea that a non-linear career journey isn't something to be feared, but rather embraced and celebrated. Luckily, I've got the fabulous Jane Lockwood, COO at Demon, with me today to share our own personal antidotes and insights, revealing how she navigated a non-linear career path. Welcome, Jane. Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, Kayleigh. It's lovely to be here.
Speaker 1:Thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to come in and have a chat with us on Spill in the Tea. Can we start with a bit of context, a bit of background about yourself, please, and how you got into ticking a bit about your career journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I am quite literally the bastion of a non-linear career. I think you can successfully say I will talk you through it. I went to university and I actually studied food science and nutrition. Oh, wow Okay.
Speaker 1:You're the first I've heard say that on here.
Speaker 2:It was something that really interested me. When you study a degree, a lot of people think, oh, it's just nutrition, there's not much to it. It wasn't. We studied things like the impact of cooking on a muscle fiber. What happened when you actually ingested bitumency? It was vast in terms of what we covered, so it was a lot of chemistry. It was very much a science degree rather than anything else.
Speaker 2:I was very fortunate to have a placement year while I was doing that degree at Geese Prepared Foods. I spent six months in their salad factory and I spent six months in their pizza factory. As part of the work experience I was given two months in each area. So I did accounts, I did buying, I did procurement, I did technical, I did manufacturing you name it, I did it. It was an absolutely brilliant piece of work experience that I got within my degree. It was so interesting being a supplier to all the big retailers. We were dealing with all the big names that you can think of and sitting in various meetings and seeing how they work and seeing how we work. It was just brilliant. I was very fortunate to have had such a good career and such a good placement year.
Speaker 2:So, doing my last year I was thinking about what is it that I want to do now? And even at that stage I know I wanted to study food. I was interested in it but I didn't really know where I was going to end up. At the end of my degree and having gone through such a great experience, I thought, okay, of those six areas that I tried within Geese, which was the one that really interested me, and I was like, actually, do you know what? I actually really enjoyed the buying side of it, which, bearing in mind I was a scientist, a bit technical, it's like, well, that could be that could give me an interesting point. Being a buyer and having a technical background. It's not often that you get those two together. So that was sort of decision number one. Decision number two was then okay, I really enjoyed being a supplier, but I've also probably want to see what it's like to be on the end of the line. I want to see what's like to be the retail and want to see what it's like to be the client.
Speaker 2:So, looking at all the big retailers out there, I thought you know what? Where does it align? Where was my natural affinity? And, having been a child that had been brought up on Percy Pigs and Colin the Caterpillar, I thought you know what? If I'm going to work for a food retailer, I want to go to a Martensburg's Vensors. So it was the only job that I applied for. I was so confident in my youth that that was the role I was going to get that I went for it and fortunately, after an assessment center and a number of interviews, I actually got the role. So that's how I ended up at retailer. To start with. I was again very fortunate that my time at M&S was brilliant. I was really lucky. I started off in confectionary, so I actually did spend some time buying Percy Pigs, which was so brilliant, and then I moved on to boxes of chocolates and all of that kind of things. I was very lucky. It was a great way to start your career.
Speaker 1:I heard a rumor. We had a developer from M&S that was on one of our webinars, she was on one of our podcasts and she told me that Percy Pigs turns up at the Christmas party. Is that true? Did you see that? You?
Speaker 2:know what it was too many years ago for me to be aware of. When I first started, I think Percy Pigs had only been around a couple of years To see what Percy and Penny and all of the rest of them are like now. It's just like every time I walk into the shop my heart does a little flutter. I'm very emotionally attached to those little pink pigs.
Speaker 1:Well, they know that apparently now they do turn up at the Christmas party, at the joy of all of the employees.
Speaker 2:I'm very jealous that I haven't got to meet him in person yet. Maybe one day that should be my aspiration.
Speaker 1:Somehow you crossed over into the tech industry. I mean, you said you'd studied in STEM, so you must have had some kind of flair there that you thought you know. This is definitely where I would like to stay in STEM subjects. And then you move from Percy Pigs to the tech industry. What happened there?
Speaker 2:Well, there was quite a big gap in between that. Whilst I was at Marks and Spencer's, I was fortunate enough to then meet what turned that to be my husband. So I did seven years at M&S in various areas. You had Percy Pigs, I did fish, I did flowers and plants, you name it. I was working in each of those areas.
Speaker 2:But we got to the situation where the wedding bills came along, the first pregnancy came along and I had our son, william, and I was all ready to go back to having a career. But I think both of us then sat down and had a very big conversation about A did we want somebody else to bring up our children? And B how do I support him in terms of what his career aspirations were as well. He was in a position then where he was spending a lot of time traveling internationally. He was going over to India. Fun enough, he was in IT at the time then. So we came to the very big, very big, honest heart to heart and made the decision that actually I would stay at home and that would allow him then to do his career. It was great for him, it was great for the kids and at the time it just felt really right for me and weirdly, it's quite uniquely I did that for 10 years and I took 10 years out, so it wasn't a short gap, it was a very much a long term gap and obviously a very different way to what I thought I would be doing in my career at that stage. And then, interestingly, when my boy started school, he started school with another little lad who he was friendly with, and his parents. Now his father is actually my boss at Demon. So our kids have grown up together. They've done lots of events. They play football matches together and cricket and rugby and all of that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:And Steve, one of our founders, had said to me at numerous times do you think you ever come back to work? And I was like you know what? Who knows, I'll keep my eyes open, I keep my ears open if something arrives, that arrives. And then in 2015, he gave me a call and said look, james, we've just had this big recruitment campaign. We've got 250 CVs in any chance you could pop in for a couple of weeks and just help us out. I was like, yeah, absolutely fine, I'm still here. I've never been here. I just popped in. I did pop in for a fortnight, but eight and a half years later, I'm still here.
Speaker 1:So, as I said, it's quite a unique.
Speaker 2:It's quite a unique and it's very much a non-linear career path. So that's kind of how I've got there and obviously my time within Demon has been. I was employee number six. I was very much brought in as what I call myself Girl Friday to sort out that filing cabinet that was building up in the corner, to put some process in place to sort of write some contracts to buy merchandise, you name it. I did a little bit of everything and slowly over the last eight years, or probably quite rapidly now you're bearing in mind, we're sort of 150 odd. As the company has grown, each of those roles have got bigger. As they've got so big, somebody else then has come in and taken those roles and by virtue I find myself at the COO role with all the roles I used to do before, now other people looking after them.
Speaker 1:I see, and it's always so interesting to hear we hear often on this podcast and from ladies on our live events as well, about companies, people that have returned to work after a break and the companies that grab hold of those employees Because that little bit of just training to get somebody back into the workplace or train them up or whatever it is that they need them to do and that job they need them to do. Then those employees I mean you just said you popped in for two weeks and you stayed for eight years those employees are very loyal in the sense that they've been given a chance, they've been given the opportunity to have some training to get you back into the workforce and then you stick around because of that. So it's very much kind of you know, you was given that opportunity, you realized it was a great employer and you stayed put for far longer than two weeks.
Speaker 2:I think I'm also. I would say this is sort of still how demon is. It was very much a case of, and it's quite refreshing, I would say probably even eight years on. But my initial conversation with them, when we were talking about me working for them on a more permanent basis, was I have two children. At that stage I had another one and my husband's not around very much.
Speaker 2:If I need to go, I'm gonna go. If I wanna go to a football match, I'm gonna go. And they were just so open-minded about it and just said absolutely why are we even having this conversation? You know, if we contract you for 20 hours a week, we don't mind. If you do it nine o'clock at night or nine o'clock at morning, do what you need to. We're not gonna set any expectations. Live your life, do what you need to do with your children and your family and come to work. And it was very refreshing at the time. It was absolutely brilliant for me the alignment of that happening at that time and my children being in that little bit older. It was absolutely brilliant. And I think it's that, like you say, the loyalty that I have to them that allowed me to do that and I still do it now and everybody in Demon does that. It's a really lovely way of working and a lot of companies say you can do it Absolutely.
Speaker 1:When you attempt to go and do so, Exactly that Like where are you? Why aren't you trying to?
Speaker 2:your desk Exactly that. Well, yeah, and I speak to my colleagues now. They say, oh, sorry, I can't. I'm out walking the dog at the moment. I'll give you a call in half an hour, no problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and today we're going to talk a little bit about linear and nonlinear career paths. Can we start with? What is the difference between a linear and nonlinear career path?
Speaker 2:Okay so, I think it's obviously thinking about this in advance of our conversation. My definition of a linear career path would be probably more of a traditional career path, where you progress through a series of jobs in a specific field. Typically, as you progress you get increased responsibility, you get more pay. If you look at something like accountancy, for example, you'll start out at an entry level accountant. You'll work your way up to a senior accountant, a manager and then eventually even probably a partner or something at a firm. So that is what we would class traditionally as as a traditional career path.
Speaker 2:A nonlinear career path is obviously much more flexible and probably not more unpredictable. It's not in five years you're not necessarily going to be here, or a 10 years going to be here. It's what you want it to be in five years or what you want it to be in 10 years. It's going to involve changing jobs. It can involve changing industries, even careers altogether. It can be something completely different, and I think this type of path, this career path, is becoming more common on the job market. It's just more reflective of the way that we live our lives now. The world is more dynamic. People want more meaning, they want more fulfillment from their work and that's not always going to be in the same career, in the same path, in the same way of doing it. And we talk about my experience quite a lot over the next couple of questions. But for me I never would have got the opportunities that I have if I'd just stuck in one field.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly that, and I think you are right.
Speaker 1:It is becoming more common as well, because I think employers it's dawning on them that people, the priorities, change and throughout your life and throughout your career and, like you said, you know, you got married, you had children and your priorities changed and what you wanted to do changed.
Speaker 1:You don't always know fresh out of university what you want to do, the career path that you want to take, and sometimes I think, having had conversations with graduates, they feel that if they haven't picked that career path and they don't know what they want to do, it's almost like they're failing before they've even left university.
Speaker 1:You're meant to know exactly what that path is going to look like and I wish, even going back to my younger self, as if you could say you know, it doesn't matter, you can try different things and people are not going to frown upon you moving around and trying new things, and that good employers just grab hold of good talent and that all of those lots of different skills can come from lots of different career transitions and even taking a career break and the things that you learn when you become a parent and all of those new skills that happen, absolutely Just things that you wouldn't have known previously. So you know it's kind of. Why do people think you have to leave uni and have it all mapped out? It's just such a misconception it is.
Speaker 2:It is completely I think it's you know and we do we put ourselves under too much pressure. I think you know we're all guilty of doing that and especially when you're younger and all that, I'm sure, and I think almost you know to a certain extent, almost a stigma associated with the fact what do you mean? You don't know what you're doing, you don't want to do for a career path and I think it's getting better, I think it is improving. But I think those you know, the sort of the early years, are so much more important than just what you're going to do for the next 40 years. And two examples that I think is really relevant to this is if you look at the amount of people that go to university and get a degree or further education, the proportion of those people that then go on to study that or have a career path in that chosen subject, it's really very small. Nowadays it's more about being a partner, to be able to apply yourself for three or four years and learn a topic that then opens your door, the doors to so many other opportunities that you didn't even think about when you were 18. The fact you've managed to apply yourself got yourself a really good qualification that opens doors that you just don't expect and something like.
Speaker 2:I was reading around the top 10, my second son has just done his GCSEs. My first son is at the second year of university. So whole higher education, further education there's a lot of buzzwords around our house at the moment and we were looking at top 10 degrees and, interestingly, the number one, a subscribed degree in the UK, psychology, which I was fascinated about. That's like that's very, very interesting. But then if you look at the number of people that then go on to do a psychology based career, the fraction of the people that do that degree is tiny. But all of those people you will find will probably be absolutely fine getting a role, but it won't necessarily be in a straight psychology field. So I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker 2:The other thing as well that I think is really important for not even necessarily younger people just, you know, I must say I teach it to my kids or something I hold very dear to myself is all those soft skills that you will be learning in parallel when you're taking on any qualification, whether it be a technical qualification or not, and I'm not talking necessarily about presentation skills or managing upwards. You know, those ones that you would talk about in the corporate world. This is more things like pragmatism, self awareness, empathy, motivation, those kind of things also known as emotional intelligence, and I think emotional sense, for me, is probably the most fundamental skill that you can, you can develop, and you should be developing it from one might, from day one. I think it's probably the most important life school you can have. It's just something that resonates with me very strongly.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and I think all of those as well. You start to pick up from university, like you said, sometimes, to skills you pick up even when you're studying, even if you don't know what you want to do, and I had lots of friends at uni who use their whole uni experience not really knowing what they wanted to do even when they graduated. But you pick up a lot of skills along the way, all those soft skills. I remember my parents said to me when I came back from university I was a different person and it was only because I had lived away for three years and I felt like I really come out of my shell because I was allowed to live away and be my own person and it was just. I always said, even the qualification it's worth it.
Speaker 1:But actually the experience of who you become when you're at university is so, so worth it, not necessarily the job that you might go into when you do graduate, and that is really difficult as well. Because I wanted to ask you a little bit about. We're told from a young age that we have to know what we want to do. We're spoken about that Some people don't even know when they leave uni. What do you do? If you truly don't know what you want to do, what do you do?
Speaker 2:I would say, first and foremost, you would kind of ask your question about what excites you, what gives you a buzz, what is it? If you're somebody that fundamentally doesn't like English, you're not going to do a degree in English, are you? Simple things like that. If you're science led, do a science based degree, Don't worry about the future. Just what is that thing? And I would always say that make sure it's something that you're engaged with, you're motivated with, it feels like a good opportunity for you, rather than necessarily a tick box exercise that says I probably should go into this field or I probably should go into that field. So that would kind of be my number one thing. And I think it's interesting that we talk about what we're supposed to do and what we're not supposed to do, especially at a young age. Again, coming back to my son, who's 19, I had a really interesting conversation with him over the weekend and just said to him about when he comes out of university and he's looking further, further afield into future careers. What is it that he's looking at? And we kind of had this quite good conversation over the dinner table the other night and we kind of summarised three really interesting points.
Speaker 2:My parents and probably their parents, were from a generation where it was normal for the man to go out to work my generation, so obviously I'm obviously a lot younger than my parents and my grandparents. My generation is very much geared towards all of us working but, in theory, creating this work-life balance. Now, interestingly, his generation is much more focused on enjoyment, personal fulfilment, healthy lifestyle. So what you could say is there's a life-work balance, whereas my generation was a work-life balance. There's a life-work balance which was really interesting when we looked at it and thought they're looking for something different and it's always evolving and it's absolutely right and so should it be. We all spend so much time at work. We have to find that thing that ticks all those boxes for us in all the right places.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. I couldn't agree more. And you are right. Things are changing through generations and I think employers are starting to catch on as to what people want, what their candidates are looking for and how to draw in good talent. So I wanted to ask you about how do we, should we be moving away from this narrative of kind of you should know what you want to do and if you haven't got it, or you haven't got 10 years of work experience by the time you go and apply for a job, it's almost like a company is going to look at you and think well, I love the word at the phrase squiggly careers they keep coming up and if it looks like you've had that squiggly career it doesn't always look like perhaps an employer will think, oh, she wasn't committed in that area and we really need to move away from that narrative, don't we that you have to have it all figured out and you have to have a very clear career path Completely.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think, nonlinear career path becoming the new norm yes, I would really hope that that is where we're going to get to. From a personal point of view, I feel I've gained more experience in my working life. I've got better personal development. Obviously, as a result of that, I've got better skillset probably, than if I'd stuck on a traditional trajectory in terms of a career. I think interesting you know it would be. It would be naive of us not to bring the pandemic into it. I think the situation that we found ourselves, I think that's had quite a lot of impact on people and how they're looking at their longer term careers. We all know people that have moved completely away from from the industry that they were in prior post the pandemic and just having had time to think about these things and look at what they're doing and thinking, is this really what I want to do? No, and it was a really good opportunity for a lot of people to sort of reset and say I can look at doing other things, I can look at other things, I can look at other qualifications. So I think that was really good and I think as well, obviously it's much about the career path that you follow. I think it's also really important to find that company that's right for you. Everybody's got different aspirations in terms of what they want out of their career, but I think finding the right company for you in terms of what they what's important to you, is really important. Nowadays it's not just about what was the old days. It was all about salary. It's not about that anymore. It's about career opportunities, it's about culture, it's about well being. It's so much more than it ever used to be. And it's quite interesting bringing it back to demon again.
Speaker 2:When people join demon, they go through three interviews. They have a technical interview, so what's the role in Compass and is that their sweet spot? We have a second interview then, which is a culture interview, where they'll come in and talk to members of the culture team. Understand what demons all about? We understand what they're all about. Is there a natural synergy? Are we on their wavelength? Do we get what was important to them, yes or no?
Speaker 2:And then, finally, everybody then will also talk to the founders, because at the end of the business, the end of the day, the business is set up by the founders and it's very much their thoughts, their ideas. And if they can sit and have a chat with the founders and say I get it. They come through those three stages and said, yeah, demon reflects what's important to me as an individual. They turn up on day one and half of the sort of you know, the scaredness of, oh my goodness, what this is going to be like. They've experienced a lot of it along the along through the interview process. So I think really you know, coming back to that initial point, that's just what we do in demon but finding that company that suits you not just about your, your career, but all the other stuff that goes with it it's really, really important nowadays and a good thing. It's a good thing that we're putting a lens on this now, where we haven't historically.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love everything you just said there about your interview process and just acknowledging as well that people want to know that. People want to know in depth about your culture. They don't want to be thrown into a job and then they realize actually this wasn't for me and it does work both ways. You know employers trying to figure out are you the best candidate for us and our culture and vice versa. And there was a report from Deloitte that I've mentioned on here before and it was around.
Speaker 1:There was a pointing there around young people that previously young people, younger generations, used to look at things, as you said, like salary. That was important and they found that nowadays young people are actually more interested in diversity and culture and they're asking about those things in the interview process because they don't want to work in companies where you know they get thrown in and they think this was nothing like what I thought it was going to be like. They really want to make sure that they're joining somewhere, as you said, that gets them as well. You know, just, a company that gets you and understands you in that sense of belonging is so important to people nowadays and you know if a company doesn't get you or you have that feeling of perhaps this isn't for me more people nowadays they're just, they're just leaving. You know you can't retain good talent if you're not flexible in that way or if you, you know, really don't try hard to obviously retain your employees and some of that as well, it can come around a there's noise, cut that out. Sorry.
Speaker 1:I wanted to talk to you a little bit about you took a career break to have children. How did you prepare for coming back to work? I know you said you know you thought you were going in for two weeks and you ended up signed for eight years. Did you do anything in between that when you were coming back, to kind of prepare for coming back to the workplace?
Speaker 2:Well, I think after 10 years away from the workplace raising children, your negotiating skills improved no end. So that was the first thing that I sort of concentrated on and probably honed in quite well in over 10 years, because we all know that if you've got small people, but they do take some negotiations sometimes. But seriously, I didn't actively look for roles in preparation for coming back to work, but I did make sure that I kept myself still involved. Lots of little things. I volunteered at my kids' school helping them to grow vegetables. I volunteered again at my kids' school helping to put on the annual play and coordinating the costumes and doing the design and little things like that which just kept me active.
Speaker 2:The other thing as well, or the other thing that I really enjoyed doing, is working in voluntary organisations within my local community.
Speaker 2:We would do gardening and things like that for disabled people, older people that couldn't cope and you're turning up there on a Wednesday morning in the truck with all your mud and everything, their faces when you walked out the door was just such a lovely thing to do.
Speaker 2:But it was as much as making sure I was still planning everything and coordinating things and I'm training others and it's all the organisation of making sure everybody's in the right place with the right equipment at the right time. It might seem like a tenuous link, but it's still that soft, lots of soft skills, again, lots and lots of soft skills. And just keeping your mind active, keeping it motivated, keeping it in the work place, just keeping it a fresh, of not just becoming stale and I say that it's not supposed to be derogatory to some people that stay at home and look after children, but you've got to keep your eyes open. You've got to keep aware of what's going on. For me, that worked really well my personal fulfilment as well. I absolutely love doing things like that so it was brilliant and, as I say, it kept all those soft skills going again as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and we've spoken on here a little bit already about non-linear career paths and I wanted to ask you a little bit about how their benefits to a non-linear career path. I suppose it's normally seen as a negative, like as an employer might look, and we've spoken a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I kind of question what on earth was she doing? Why?
Speaker 2:does her career path look like that?
Speaker 1:And I suppose, if you're transparent about your career path and why you went in lots of different directions and picked up lots of skills with you along the way, I suppose there are lots of benefits to that, isn't there?
Speaker 2:100%. I couldn't agree more, I think, although I, before I answer this question, I think I probably just put a caveat in there are lots of people that want train chase, choose a vocation such as doctors and accountants and all those kind of careers. I've got the utmost respect for those people and by virtue of the fact there's will always been a linear career and I'm, as I say, queued us to them that they follow a career through and do it for years and years on end, absolutely so. I'm not saying anything contradictory to what they do from a traditional point of view. But for me personally, I would say my non-linear career has allowed me to expose to so many more interesting situations and scenarios.
Speaker 2:From that I've developed so much, I've experienced so much more personal learning and personal growth. Would have I got exposure if I'd stayed in one career? Probably not. I'd probably say I wouldn't. Compared to what I have With my view and perspective into science, retail and now IT, I feel I could change jobs, industries or careers, all together with the skillset that I've developed over the years. And I think if my CV sat on front in somebody's desk they'd say that's interesting, how come she's been all over the place like this and it actually would create a conversation piece.
Speaker 1:Yes, especially in tech because people come in from all different routes, and that's the great thing about the industry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean, I completely believe there are benefits to a non-linear career. It allows people to develop their personalized career path as well. That's the other thing. Different stages, you want different things. You know your personal fulfillment is there for better. You can use the skills and talents that you develop along the way to make a difference and actually work on stuff that you feel passionate about, which I think is really important If you want to get up to go to work every day. That is 90% of the bathroom.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and I love that. I definitely agree that there are benefits to non-linear career paths. I do think sometimes employers not even an employer you know say it's a recruiter looking at your CV and they might think that's a red flag. But if somebody really knows you or has met you, then they can see all the benefits that have come with it. And I am wondering do you think employers favor linear careers over non-linear careers? Because even though we might assume that it's seen as a negative moving around, actually a lot of employers probably think that is a very well-rounded person that comes with lots and lots of different skills. You know, surely employers must see it that way as well.
Speaker 2:Well, I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, you know there's always arguments both sides, as we've talked about. You know, every employer and every employee is different, and there will always be a requirement for traditional career path. I completely agree with that Overall. I do believe, though, that employer preferences have actually shifted. I think they are shifting from the linear path to more diverse hiring.
Speaker 2:Personally, if I've got three CVs that are on my desk and there's a similar skill set, I will choose the candidate that's got a more diverse background to the one that doesn't. The additional life experience is invaluable when it comes to decision making or problem making, problem solving, for example, and those candidates with career breaks as well. There was always we talked about before. When you've got a big gap in your career, it was automatic well, we'll put that CV in the bin, not anymore. It's just a different world now.
Speaker 2:The fact that I chose to take 10 years off to raise my children, I don't think that's penalized me. I really don't think it has. I've just got on, done what I've need to do. I can perfectly explain why there's nothing on my CV for 10 years. So why should that be a derogatory gap in my CV? It's not. It's just my life took a different path at that time. So from my personal point of view, as I say, the more diverse the CV are, personally, that's more interesting to me. That makes me look further and go. That's really exciting. That's what I want to do, I think one of the things that I wanted to mention is Dima. We were very fortunate last year to work with a company called Tech Returners.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love Tech Returners.
Speaker 2:Aren't they brilliant? So we started one of their programs that bring people into the tech center these people either returning to a career break or having a career change and we brought on a number of people from this scheme and what they have brought to Dima as a completely different way of looking at their career path, from them as individuals, it's been brilliant. Their diversity of thinking. They bought such a refreshing change and actually they've challenged us in a number of different ways. They're like why do you do it like this? Why do we look at this? Why can't we look at this as an opportunity? So that's been hugely fulfilling for us and them. And it's a great opportunity where that's a whole group of people that are coming to a new industry or coming to a new opportunity and with it, bringing lots of stuff for us as the employer as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, and things as well that you might not have even thought of, because they come with complete diversity of thoughts and skills that you didn't even probably know that you were aware that you needed in your workforce. And we're talking a little bit about non-traditional routes and soft skills today and I wanted to just touch up on that a little bit more and how non-traditional routes into tech can help us off skills. Because I had a lady on here previously who she was a returner to tech, she had taken a break for children and she said when she transitioned into tech she said it took me a little while, as it was kind of dawn on me that even though I felt very junior because it was my first role, I'd actually been in work 15 plus years. At that point it's easy to think that I know Dawn's on you actually taking a non-linear route. You've been in work, you've got all of these wonderful soft skills and just reminding, just almost taking a step back and thinking actually I'm not junior, I met an advanced here. Surely that has so many benefits.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely and actually what I will do in answer to your question is I'd like to cite two of the people that we've got doing at Demon as a really good example of two people that have changed their careers. First of all, I'll talk about Naomi. Naomi joined us earlier in the year. She's previously worked in UX in New Island. Interior Designer. Having joined Demon also say historically, having worked in a creative and a design-based field, that's pretty different to what we do at Demon. She's brought something completely different to us all and made us all sit up and look and just say that's a really interesting way of looking at things, differently to what we did before. And, what's interesting, she heads up our social working party. So as well as all the awesome stuff she can do from a career point of view, she also brings a different way of looking at things. She's stepping outside of her comfort zone, stepping into a role like that where you're responsible, you're not responsible, but you're looking after all the social aspects of the business. She's only very junior but Because she's used to changing, she's made a big change. She's also willing to take on big jobs, big roles, get involved. It's opened her eyes to probably more opportunities than it would if she just stuck with doing the same thing. So I think Neham is a really interesting example. The second lady that I was going to talk about is Fran, who again she's doing this this year. Fran was previously a university lecturer in neuroscience, I know, until she's got us all the way Very cool job, Thinking outside the box she really has made us think differently.
Speaker 2:We have this great event at Demon which we call our Demon Days, and we have them twice a year and the endeavor of the Demon Days is to get everybody in the same room, which is really great. It's really important that we just have that time. Invariably we spend time talking and laughing and have some presentations, but just generally it's all about connecting and coming back together. And in our last Demon Day back in June, she gave us a presentation, a fascinating presentation, on what she called people, culture and the Dean Brain, and it was a huge opener for all of us. It was absolutely incredible. It was so engaging. You could just look around the room and everybody was just like wow, wow, wow. That's what my brain's doing now. That's what I'm thinking. It was absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 2:So she brings that to us, but then also she's taken on the mantle and I say it's a mantle of being our environmental champion. So, yes, she's working in the tech sector, yes, she brings this interesting neuroscience university background, but she's also now in charge of achieving our net zero status. She's involved in all of our pulling together, our ESG reporting and our positioning and things like that. A really, really good example of two-ended units and I took both of them that have chosen nonlinear careers and, as a result, can bring so much more. Even to an employer-like demon, it's just like, wow, these girls are coming in and they're absolutely setting the world on fire and we're all just sitting back and saying this is incredible. These guys, these girls, these guys girls are absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1:And having that confidence as well the way you describe both of them. They sound very happy to try new things and move ahead. Sometimes we overthink things and think here's a reason why I want to try something and here's 10 reasons why I shouldn't even attempt it. And sometimes, just having the confidence to try new things, that really shows in employees that are confident in moving around and just wanting to give new things a go, and that's a lovely staff member to have and a lovely part of the team as well, to have that feeling of driving everybody forward and thinking that we can try new things. We are almost out of time and I have one last question for you. Do you have any advice for our listeners? Anyone that is kind of thinking I'm thinking about taking another in your career or have taken one and are not quite sure what to do now?
Speaker 2:Sure, I thought about this, thought about this question long and hard and actually I found it relative. Having thought about it, I thought, yeah, that's what it is, and for me it feels really simple. But my advice would be always look for opportunities that interest you. It's similar to what I was talking about before regardless of the career or the industry you're in, if you're motivated by your job, your personal journey will continue to evolve, you will grow into these roles and you have so much more to offer your employer. I think that's what it's all about.
Speaker 2:If you're not interested or emotionally engaged in what you're doing and you've spent years there how are you keeping yourself motivated? What I was saying to you before are you waking up in the morning and thinking, yippee, I'm going to work? You're not. You're going to be thinking, yippee, I'm, oh dear, I'm going to work again, and that's really not right. And the employer is not getting the best out of you and you're not getting the best out of yourself and you're not developing as an individual, you're not growing, you're not evolving, you're not developing your skillset. So I think, fundamentally, find the opportunity that interests you. The rest of it will all fall into place. Push the boundaries. Ultimately, you've got to enjoy what you've got to do and you shouldn't be curtailed by previous generations, previous ideas, preconceived ideas. Should all be about what motivates you and what makes you excited, and when you find that brilliant.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is rare to find, and it is rare to find being at the right employer that gets you, and I think one of the biggest misconceptions about being in tech and coming into the tech industry is that you have to have had a computer science degree to come in.
Speaker 2:Yes, I completely agree that there is nobody less technical than myself, and I find myself in this position in a very much a technical industry. So well, if everybody's oyster, if I can do it, anybody else can.
Speaker 1:Fabulous. Well, that is lovely. That is a lovely point to end it on. Thank you so much, jane. It has been an absolute pleasure and it has blown by, so thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. Likewise, thank you so much for having me. Thank you and for everybody joining us, as always. Thank you for listening and we hope to see you again next time.
